Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt.

Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt.

Today we're talking about apprenticeships, how to earn and learn simultaneously with Ryan Craig.

Today we're talking about apprenticeships, how to earn and learn simultaneously with Ryan Craig.

Yeah, so the notion that an individual could earn a living while simultaneously learning how to do their job is such a foreign concept, you know, Like, that is not how we do things here in America. It takes money to make money, baby, That's how we do it here. You've got to go to the most expensive college. You got to take on boat loads of student loans, saddle yourself with years of debt if you want a decent job. These days, some of the most man selective universities, they're quickly approaching the one hundred thousand dollar mark for a single year of college. And while we are fans of investing in yourself, like, it just definitely looks like we're approaching a tipping point. Nothing literally has risen faster than the price of college over the decades. But what if there was another way? And we're joined by education and workforce expert Ryan Craig, who says that there are alternatives. His book Apprentice Nation explores how a modern apprenticeship system, how that will allow students and job seekers to jumpstart their careers by learning while they earn, leading to greater workforce diversity and geographical mobility. So Ryan, thank you for joining us today on the podcast to talk about this.

Yeah, so the notion that an individual could earn a living while simultaneously learning how to do their job is such a foreign concept, you know, Like, that is not how we do things here in America. It takes money to make money, baby, That's how we do it here. You've got to go to the most expensive college. You got to take on boat loads of student loans, saddle yourself with years of debt if you want a decent job. These days, some of the most man selective universities, they're quickly approaching the one hundred thousand dollar mark for a single year of college. And while we are fans of investing in yourself, like, it just definitely looks like we're approaching a tipping point. Nothing literally has risen faster than the price of college over the decades. But what if there was another way? And we're joined by education and workforce expert Ryan Craig, who says that there are alternatives. His book Apprentice Nation explores how a modern apprenticeship system, how that will allow students and job seekers to jumpstart their careers by learning while they earn, leading to greater workforce diversity and geographical mobility. So Ryan, thank you for joining us today on the podcast to talk about this.

Great to be here. Matt in Jill appreciate it. And you know, to your point about one hundred thousand dollars college. The New York Times just wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago calculating that Vanderbilt University is the first where if you add the room board and fees to tuition, and then you add in the cost of a couple flights a year to and from school, you're over one hundred grand built.

Great to be here. Matt in Jill appreciate it. And you know, to your point about one hundred thousand dollars college. The New York Times just wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago calculating that Vanderbilt University is the first where if you add the room board and fees to tuition, and then you add in the cost of a couple flights a year to and from school, you're over one hundred grand built.

There, you go.

There, you go.

Sounds cheap to me, Ryan On, I mean, what's the big fuss come on a bit of money?

Sounds cheap to me, Ryan On, I mean, what's the big fuss come on a bit of money?

Right?

Right?

Is it grows on trees?

Is it grows on trees?

I just pick it out in my backyard. The first question we ask everybody who comes on the show, by the way, Ryan, is what their craft beer equivalent is. Matt and I spend more money than some people think it's sane on craft beer. But we're day, we're doing the right stuff at the same time, saving and investing for a future. So what's that for you, what's your kind of equivalent splurge.

I just pick it out in my backyard. The first question we ask everybody who comes on the show, by the way, Ryan, is what their craft beer equivalent is. Matt and I spend more money than some people think it's sane on craft beer. But we're day, we're doing the right stuff at the same time, saving and investing for a future. So what's that for you, what's your kind of equivalent splurge.

Yeah, I'm afraid it's not as going to be as interesting as craft beer. I'm a runner, and I don't have that much time between my work and my my writing and my policy nonprofit work. So I like to when i'm running be able to catch up on TV shows that I've missed. And so even though I live in LA I run in my basement on a treadmill, and I have the top of the line treadmill.

Yeah, I'm afraid it's not as going to be as interesting as craft beer. I'm a runner, and I don't have that much time between my work and my my writing and my policy nonprofit work. So I like to when i'm running be able to catch up on TV shows that I've missed. And so even though I live in LA I run in my basement on a treadmill, and I have the top of the line treadmill.

That I have splurged.

That I have splurged.

So most people will have like a consumer couple of thousand dollars maybe treadmill mind costs a lot more than that, but I use it and I love it.

So most people will have like a consumer couple of thousand dollars maybe treadmill mind costs a lot more than that, but I use it and I love it.

So okay, so you're running in you're catching up on entertainment. Does it have some sort of like twelve inch screen, like this beautiful display that's automatically.

So okay, so you're running in you're catching up on entertainment. Does it have some sort of like twelve inch screen, like this beautiful display that's automatically.

Desc beautiful screen. Yeah, big beautiful screen right in front of it. Surround sound, it's great.

Desc beautiful screen. Yeah, big beautiful screen right in front of it. Surround sound, it's great.

Oh treadmill? What's the round sound? Baby? Okay, So what's the deal by Dolby? You know, I see these treadmills that are curved? Is yours like that?

Oh treadmill? What's the round sound? Baby? Okay, So what's the deal by Dolby? You know, I see these treadmills that are curved? Is yours like that?

Like?

Like?

What are those treadmills?

What are those treadmills?

All? It's not I don't understand that either. That looks looks.

All? It's not I don't understand that either. That looks looks.

Painful, Okay, you and me both. I don't know what those what those are for, but let's dive into it. You wrote a book about faster, cheaper alternatives to college before your current book about apprenticeships. But there is obviously a clear thread between the two. Why is this area, why is this domain so important to you?

Painful, Okay, you and me both. I don't know what those what those are for, but let's dive into it. You wrote a book about faster, cheaper alternatives to college before your current book about apprenticeships. But there is obviously a clear thread between the two. Why is this area, why is this domain so important to you?

Well, I mean I've made my career in higher education.

Well, I mean I've made my career in higher education.

My first job twenty five years ago was at Columbia University, which has had.

My first job twenty five years ago was at Columbia University, which has had.

A difficult, difficult month. I don't say.

A difficult, difficult month. I don't say.

They've been in the news.

They've been in the news.

Since then, I have helped build universities, worked at universities, worked with universities, build companies that partner with universities, and have a love for higher education. The challenge that we have, of course, is that we're facing a three part crisis in higher education, and that has nothing to do with the protests. The first is a crisis of completion. So only about half of students who matriculate into a college or university actually complete the programm or degree that they set out to complete. So that's a problem. We have the highest rate of matriculation among developed countries, so we have great access, but we have the lowest rate of completion, and some community colleges it can be as low as fifteen percent. Then we have a crisis of affordability. So the one hundred thousand dollars degree is one hundred thousand dollars a year degree is nigh. But you know, beyond that, the average student who takes on student loans, which is about seventy percent of all students, if they complete and graduate, they're graduating now with about fifty thousand dollars in student loan debt. And no other country has that kind of issue, settling its young people with that much debt as they're trying to launch their careers. And then third is employability. You know, if every student graduated into a sixty thousand dollars a year job, they'd be able to support that kind of student loan debt. But Strata just put out a new study last month showing that fifty two percent of recent grads are underemployed in their first jobs, which means that they probably could have gotten those jobs without the investment of time and money in those degrees. And we know that if you're underemployed in your first job. Two thirds of the time you're underemployed for five years later. Half the time you're under employed a decade later. Right, careers are path dependent, and so something is not working. And I think that the fundamental change is that the economy has been transformed. Digital transformation has changed the economy, changed the jobs we all do. We're all using technology in our jobs. Many of us are actually working in.

Since then, I have helped build universities, worked at universities, worked with universities, build companies that partner with universities, and have a love for higher education. The challenge that we have, of course, is that we're facing a three part crisis in higher education, and that has nothing to do with the protests. The first is a crisis of completion. So only about half of students who matriculate into a college or university actually complete the programm or degree that they set out to complete. So that's a problem. We have the highest rate of matriculation among developed countries, so we have great access, but we have the lowest rate of completion, and some community colleges it can be as low as fifteen percent. Then we have a crisis of affordability. So the one hundred thousand dollars degree is one hundred thousand dollars a year degree is nigh. But you know, beyond that, the average student who takes on student loans, which is about seventy percent of all students, if they complete and graduate, they're graduating now with about fifty thousand dollars in student loan debt. And no other country has that kind of issue, settling its young people with that much debt as they're trying to launch their careers. And then third is employability. You know, if every student graduated into a sixty thousand dollars a year job, they'd be able to support that kind of student loan debt. But Strata just put out a new study last month showing that fifty two percent of recent grads are underemployed in their first jobs, which means that they probably could have gotten those jobs without the investment of time and money in those degrees. And we know that if you're underemployed in your first job. Two thirds of the time you're underemployed for five years later. Half the time you're under employed a decade later. Right, careers are path dependent, and so something is not working. And I think that the fundamental change is that the economy has been transformed. Digital transformation has changed the economy, changed the jobs we all do. We're all using technology in our jobs. Many of us are actually working in.

The tech sector.

The tech sector.

But if you look at the programs of study, if you go and you go back to your alma mater and you look around, it looks almost identical to the way you know. Yes, maybe students have phones, and maybe there's a data science program, but by and large, same program, same departmental structure as when you attended.

But if you look at the programs of study, if you go and you go back to your alma mater and you look around, it looks almost identical to the way you know. Yes, maybe students have phones, and maybe there's a data science program, but by and large, same program, same departmental structure as when you attended.

And something is not working.

And something is not working.

And what's not working is that employers are having an increasingly hard time finding the skills that they're looking for. They're looking for discrete combinations of digital skills, business skills, knowledge, role knowledge, and colleges and universities, I think are doing as good a job as they've ever done on the sort of core cognitive skills, critical thinking, problem solving, communication skills, but they're not doing anything around the specific skills that employees are looking for in addition, and that's contributing to the underemployment. And those skills are actually harder to learn in a classroom than they are by doing so that's maybe the bridge to sort of earning and learning.

And what's not working is that employers are having an increasingly hard time finding the skills that they're looking for. They're looking for discrete combinations of digital skills, business skills, knowledge, role knowledge, and colleges and universities, I think are doing as good a job as they've ever done on the sort of core cognitive skills, critical thinking, problem solving, communication skills, but they're not doing anything around the specific skills that employees are looking for in addition, and that's contributing to the underemployment. And those skills are actually harder to learn in a classroom than they are by doing so that's maybe the bridge to sort of earning and learning.

Is part of the problem that the workplace is the nail and college has been seen as the hammer. It's like we've essentially made it a one size fits all solution, even though in actuality it's not working out that way, and we've pushed everybody in that direction. And yet, like in your last book that you released in twenty eighteen, you talk about other solutions that are superior to the current for your meth that's even before we get into like in depth talk about apprenticeships, Like what are some of those other routes that are superior that we're just like neglecting completely.

Is part of the problem that the workplace is the nail and college has been seen as the hammer. It's like we've essentially made it a one size fits all solution, even though in actuality it's not working out that way, and we've pushed everybody in that direction. And yet, like in your last book that you released in twenty eighteen, you talk about other solutions that are superior to the current for your meth that's even before we get into like in depth talk about apprenticeships, Like what are some of those other routes that are superior that we're just like neglecting completely.

Yeah, look, I mean, you know, we coined the term fast last mile training to reflect sort of what employers are looking for, these digital skills, business skills, business knowledge that colleges aren't aren't providing. And there's a whole industry now of alternative boot camps and online credentials and industry recognized certificate programs that may take you as little as a few months, and you have a credential that an employer will value and hire you on without regard to whether you have a degree in many cases, So the challenge, and as you're right, my last book was sort of a guided tour of that emerging last mile training landscape, which is the direct result of those three crises that we're seeing in higher education, particularly around employability. But those, you know, those programs are still what I would call train and prey programs, which is to say, there's no guarantee of a job right you graduate from you know, the most well intentioned coding boot camp. You know, employer is not going to know what that program is, necessarily what skills you've gained, and it's certainly not going to close what is emerging as perhaps the biggest problem facing new grads, which is this experience gap where employers are increasingly explicitly or implicitly demanding six, twelve, eighteen, twenty four months of real, relevant, paid, sometimes even full time work experience and jobs that used to be entry level jobs. And AI is going to completely turn that experience gap into a chasm because the bargain that employers have always made with their entry level workers is you don't need skills or experience, you just need kind of you know, the potential and the interest. You'll, yeah, exactly, and you'll do you know, kind of some grunt work menial work while you learn the ropes and become productive well with AI. That grunt work and media work is going to go away. You know, no investment banking analyst is going to be spending you know, fifty hours a week building PowerPoint.

Yeah, look, I mean, you know, we coined the term fast last mile training to reflect sort of what employers are looking for, these digital skills, business skills, business knowledge that colleges aren't aren't providing. And there's a whole industry now of alternative boot camps and online credentials and industry recognized certificate programs that may take you as little as a few months, and you have a credential that an employer will value and hire you on without regard to whether you have a degree in many cases, So the challenge, and as you're right, my last book was sort of a guided tour of that emerging last mile training landscape, which is the direct result of those three crises that we're seeing in higher education, particularly around employability. But those, you know, those programs are still what I would call train and prey programs, which is to say, there's no guarantee of a job right you graduate from you know, the most well intentioned coding boot camp. You know, employer is not going to know what that program is, necessarily what skills you've gained, and it's certainly not going to close what is emerging as perhaps the biggest problem facing new grads, which is this experience gap where employers are increasingly explicitly or implicitly demanding six, twelve, eighteen, twenty four months of real, relevant, paid, sometimes even full time work experience and jobs that used to be entry level jobs. And AI is going to completely turn that experience gap into a chasm because the bargain that employers have always made with their entry level workers is you don't need skills or experience, you just need kind of you know, the potential and the interest. You'll, yeah, exactly, and you'll do you know, kind of some grunt work menial work while you learn the ropes and become productive well with AI. That grunt work and media work is going to go away. You know, no investment banking analyst is going to be spending you know, fifty hours a week building PowerPoint.

Slides for decks.

Slides for decks.

They're going to be due to spending an hour on that using AI, and they'll be expected to spend the other forty nine hours doing higher value client work, product work, you name it. But the problem is that that higher value work is not going to be possible without experience.

They're going to be due to spending an hour on that using AI, and they'll be expected to spend the other forty nine hours doing higher value client work, product work, you name it. But the problem is that that higher value work is not going to be possible without experience.

And so you're going to.

And so you're going to.

See employers demanding years of work experience for jobs that used to be entry level jobs. And it's really going to pull the ladder up and away from young Americans who've gone down this tuition, tuition based, debt based career launch pathway, which is really unfortunate because among all developed countries, we're first on tuition based, debt based career launch infrastructure. We're last on earn and learn infrastructure.

See employers demanding years of work experience for jobs that used to be entry level jobs. And it's really going to pull the ladder up and away from young Americans who've gone down this tuition, tuition based, debt based career launch pathway, which is really unfortunate because among all developed countries, we're first on tuition based, debt based career launch infrastructure. We're last on earn and learn infrastructure.

And that's the problem with those sort of those smile training boot camps or online certifications. It seems like what you're saying too, is that the employers they don't necessarily trust that because they've got no idea, they don't have a whole lot of experience. They're as opposed to if they were on site, if they had the ability to learn firsthand what it is that they needed to do. And that kind of leads us to apprenticeships. And this might be kind of a weird question, but like, how do you define an apprenticeship, right, because I think you've said that it's not workforce training, like you are actually earning some money. So can you kind of drill down on that and explain to listeners kind of what that apprenticeship can look like.

And that's the problem with those sort of those smile training boot camps or online certifications. It seems like what you're saying too, is that the employers they don't necessarily trust that because they've got no idea, they don't have a whole lot of experience. They're as opposed to if they were on site, if they had the ability to learn firsthand what it is that they needed to do. And that kind of leads us to apprenticeships. And this might be kind of a weird question, but like, how do you define an apprenticeship, right, because I think you've said that it's not workforce training, like you are actually earning some money. So can you kind of drill down on that and explain to listeners kind of what that apprenticeship can look like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, an apprenticeship quite simply is a full time job that has a couple of distinct characteristics. One is that you're not expected to have the skills or experience coming in. Two is that you're being provided with formal and informal training as part of that part of that job. So the formal training is actually you're going to be in a classroom for the equivalent of kind of a day, a week or perhaps as long as a year or sometimes two years, and you're actually learning everything you need to know about the job. And then there's an informal on the job training component to it, where your supervisors, your managers who you're working for, are supposed to sort of continue to train you on the on the job. And then after a period of time one year, two years, three years, you're just going to transition to become a regular employee. You don't have to apply for a new job. You just sort of continue. You're no longer an apprentice. You're you know, a regular, a regular employee. So that's apprenticeship, if you know, there's confusion around it because there are other terms like pre apprenticeship, youth apprenticeship, those are those are if you're not a full time employee, you're not an apprentice, period end of story.

Yeah, an apprenticeship quite simply is a full time job that has a couple of distinct characteristics. One is that you're not expected to have the skills or experience coming in. Two is that you're being provided with formal and informal training as part of that part of that job. So the formal training is actually you're going to be in a classroom for the equivalent of kind of a day, a week or perhaps as long as a year or sometimes two years, and you're actually learning everything you need to know about the job. And then there's an informal on the job training component to it, where your supervisors, your managers who you're working for, are supposed to sort of continue to train you on the on the job. And then after a period of time one year, two years, three years, you're just going to transition to become a regular employee. You don't have to apply for a new job. You just sort of continue. You're no longer an apprentice. You're you know, a regular, a regular employee. So that's apprenticeship, if you know, there's confusion around it because there are other terms like pre apprenticeship, youth apprenticeship, those are those are if you're not a full time employee, you're not an apprentice, period end of story.

Because internships, some people confuse internships and apprenticeship sometimes too right, it's it's like potential onboarding, but you're also not a full time employee. You're yeah, cut leg go at any time after the well, yeah.

Because internships, some people confuse internships and apprenticeship sometimes too right, it's it's like potential onboarding, but you're also not a full time employee. You're yeah, cut leg go at any time after the well, yeah.

An internship.

An internship.

Internship is like apprenticeship turned on its head because you're an apprentice is a full time worker who's doing training as part of his or her job. An intern is someone who's engaged enrolled in an educational typically post secondary program college program where during the program, whether it's over the summer or during during a term, they're engaging and usually part time, sometimes full time work over the summer, sometimes paid too often unpaid, which makes it kind of inequitable. But you return then from it's time limited and then you return to you know, finishing your program of study, so you know, a thumbnail apprenticeship. Apprentices are workers who have training built in in terms or students who are doing a sort of temporary work experience.

Internship is like apprenticeship turned on its head because you're an apprentice is a full time worker who's doing training as part of his or her job. An intern is someone who's engaged enrolled in an educational typically post secondary program college program where during the program, whether it's over the summer or during during a term, they're engaging and usually part time, sometimes full time work over the summer, sometimes paid too often unpaid, which makes it kind of inequitable. But you return then from it's time limited and then you return to you know, finishing your program of study, so you know, a thumbnail apprenticeship. Apprentices are workers who have training built in in terms or students who are doing a sort of temporary work experience.

So tell me what's the benefit for the employer, because I'm thinking about this from the perspective of somebody who employees people, spends money for hopefully productive labor. And you hire somebody and not only are you paying them a salary you know, probably not commensurate to the people obviously that have been around for five ten years or something like that and are highly productive. But I'm having to pay the salary of someone and teach them at the same time. That requires like a commitment, dedication. What sort of commitment are they getting in return? So what are the stakes like for these employers who participate in apprenticeship programs.

So tell me what's the benefit for the employer, because I'm thinking about this from the perspective of somebody who employees people, spends money for hopefully productive labor. And you hire somebody and not only are you paying them a salary you know, probably not commensurate to the people obviously that have been around for five ten years or something like that and are highly productive. But I'm having to pay the salary of someone and teach them at the same time. That requires like a commitment, dedication. What sort of commitment are they getting in return? So what are the stakes like for these employers who participate in apprenticeship programs.

Well, depending on how you define it, too high or too low, meaning that you know your average employer is not going to do it.

Well, depending on how you define it, too high or too low, meaning that you know your average employer is not going to do it.

It doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense.

And that's kind of the secret of apprenticeship is that where apprenticeships thrive around the world, whether it be in you know, Germany, Austria, or Switzerland, or here in the US in the building trades. They're not thriving because employers in those countries or sectors are more benevolent or more far sighted. They're thriving because there are intermediaries who are doing the work of setting up and running these programs. And these intermediaries are doing so because they're either required to do so by law or they're incentivized to do so by the government. And so in Germany, the reason that you know, the German apprenticeship program is a system is the kind of the gold standard is that you have these massive, powerful chambers of commerce across every industry that are required by law to work with unions and run these programs for the benefit of employers, and they're funded to do so you know, I kind of laugh every time I see some report of a state junket going over to Germany to drink the reaseling and eat the schnitzel and look at their apprenticeship programs. It's not opposite. We don't have that infrastructure. We can't, we can't, we can't do that. But what's interesting is that the UK and Australia and France thirty years ago looked a lot like the US in terms of having a very small apprenticeship system, like almost all in the building trades, like we do today. And today in those countries there are eight to ten x where we are in terms of apprentices as a percentage of the workforce. And it's very common in those countries to launch careers in finance, tech, healthcare as an apprentice. And how did that happen. It's because governments recognize that employers don't do it themselves. Certainly, colleges and universities don't set up and run these programs for the benefit of employers. It requires a concerted effort to incentivize and establish a robust ecosystem of intermediaries who are doing this work of setting up and running programs for the benefit of employers. And so now in the UK you have this ecosystem of twelve hundred apprenticeship service providers. These are nonprofit organizations and more often former staffing companies HR services companies that have launched businesses as apprenticeship service providers because there's government funding and incentive to do so, and so they're now running around the country knocking on doors of every employer offering to set up and run apprenticeship programs across every sector.

And that's kind of the secret of apprenticeship is that where apprenticeships thrive around the world, whether it be in you know, Germany, Austria, or Switzerland, or here in the US in the building trades. They're not thriving because employers in those countries or sectors are more benevolent or more far sighted. They're thriving because there are intermediaries who are doing the work of setting up and running these programs. And these intermediaries are doing so because they're either required to do so by law or they're incentivized to do so by the government. And so in Germany, the reason that you know, the German apprenticeship program is a system is the kind of the gold standard is that you have these massive, powerful chambers of commerce across every industry that are required by law to work with unions and run these programs for the benefit of employers, and they're funded to do so you know, I kind of laugh every time I see some report of a state junket going over to Germany to drink the reaseling and eat the schnitzel and look at their apprenticeship programs. It's not opposite. We don't have that infrastructure. We can't, we can't, we can't do that. But what's interesting is that the UK and Australia and France thirty years ago looked a lot like the US in terms of having a very small apprenticeship system, like almost all in the building trades, like we do today. And today in those countries there are eight to ten x where we are in terms of apprentices as a percentage of the workforce. And it's very common in those countries to launch careers in finance, tech, healthcare as an apprentice. And how did that happen. It's because governments recognize that employers don't do it themselves. Certainly, colleges and universities don't set up and run these programs for the benefit of employers. It requires a concerted effort to incentivize and establish a robust ecosystem of intermediaries who are doing this work of setting up and running programs for the benefit of employers. And so now in the UK you have this ecosystem of twelve hundred apprenticeship service providers. These are nonprofit organizations and more often former staffing companies HR services companies that have launched businesses as apprenticeship service providers because there's government funding and incentive to do so, and so they're now running around the country knocking on doors of every employer offering to set up and run apprenticeship programs across every sector.

So you won't find a.

So you won't find a.

Larger mid sized employer in the UK that hasn't been approached by a half dozen of these apprenticeship service providers. It's the opposite here. You know, you won't find any employer who's been approached by any you know company or organization offering to set up and help them run an apprenticeship program. If you know, the idea occurs to you know, an HR leader or a CEO at an American company, the assumption is, well, we'd have to do it ourselves, and for exactly the reasons you stated. The math doesn't work because you're you're not only paying for the training, but you're paying and you're hiring and paying an unproductive worker a worker who's not going to be productive for an extended period of time, So it doesn't work without smart policy.

Larger mid sized employer in the UK that hasn't been approached by a half dozen of these apprenticeship service providers. It's the opposite here. You know, you won't find any employer who's been approached by any you know company or organization offering to set up and help them run an apprenticeship program. If you know, the idea occurs to you know, an HR leader or a CEO at an American company, the assumption is, well, we'd have to do it ourselves, and for exactly the reasons you stated. The math doesn't work because you're you're not only paying for the training, but you're paying and you're hiring and paying an unproductive worker a worker who's not going to be productive for an extended period of time, So it doesn't work without smart policy.

Help help us get get an understanding of I guess what apprenticeships can because you mentioned some of the different building trades in Europe. But you also point out though in your book, that apprenticeships they're not just for blue collar jobs as well, right, Like, can you talk about I guess the vast variety of what apprenticeships and what different industries that you can find those types of opportunities in.

Help help us get get an understanding of I guess what apprenticeships can because you mentioned some of the different building trades in Europe. But you also point out though in your book, that apprenticeships they're not just for blue collar jobs as well, right, Like, can you talk about I guess the vast variety of what apprenticeships and what different industries that you can find those types of opportunities in.

Well, I mean, apprenticeships are you know, sort of informal apprenticeships exist everywhere, right, and you know, think about investment, banking or consulting. You know there's sort of those top firms or hiring candidates in with potential but without the skills or experience, and they're they're delivering that to them. Think about Hollywood and the classic you know, going to work in the CIA mail room for example. That's you know, kind of an informal apprenticeship apprenticeship model. But broadly speaking, apprenticeships work in the trades because they're really good ways to learn how to use tools, right, And they work well in the trades because even though you may not know what you're doing on day one, you can still kind of hold the tools and you know, help right, even if you don't know what you're what you're doing. With the digitization of the economy, everyone needs to know how to use tools. Now, those may not be tools that you know require you know, muscle and dexterity. They may be tools that require understanding how to use certain software platforms. And that's where we're seeing huge growth in apprenticeship programs and apprenticeship models in areas like software development, data analytics, healthcare I, cybersecurity, discrete tech ecosystems like Salesforce, workday, SAP. You know, these are all areas where you know, higher education is not you know, preparing and delivering work ready graduates and apprenticeships are really useful for you know, there's seven hundred thousand unfilled cybersecurity jobs in the country right now, and the experience gap in cybersecurity has just exploded over the last five years. It used to be that a college grad with some technical acumen could access a job as a Tier one analyst and a security operations center. But today, because of automation, tier one analysts have basically gone away, and the entry level position is what used to be a Tier two analyst, which demands a CISSP certification, which is three to five years work experience. So how do you break into cyber. Well, we need apprenticeship infrastructure in that space. We need incentives for companies and more likely intermediaries to hire you know, tens or hundreds of thousands of young Americans, deliver them the skills are experience, and kind of serve them up on a silver platter to the ultimate employers who'll be glad to take them and put them into those now level you know, tier two positions.

Well, I mean, apprenticeships are you know, sort of informal apprenticeships exist everywhere, right, and you know, think about investment, banking or consulting. You know there's sort of those top firms or hiring candidates in with potential but without the skills or experience, and they're they're delivering that to them. Think about Hollywood and the classic you know, going to work in the CIA mail room for example. That's you know, kind of an informal apprenticeship apprenticeship model. But broadly speaking, apprenticeships work in the trades because they're really good ways to learn how to use tools, right, And they work well in the trades because even though you may not know what you're doing on day one, you can still kind of hold the tools and you know, help right, even if you don't know what you're what you're doing. With the digitization of the economy, everyone needs to know how to use tools. Now, those may not be tools that you know require you know, muscle and dexterity. They may be tools that require understanding how to use certain software platforms. And that's where we're seeing huge growth in apprenticeship programs and apprenticeship models in areas like software development, data analytics, healthcare I, cybersecurity, discrete tech ecosystems like Salesforce, workday, SAP. You know, these are all areas where you know, higher education is not you know, preparing and delivering work ready graduates and apprenticeships are really useful for you know, there's seven hundred thousand unfilled cybersecurity jobs in the country right now, and the experience gap in cybersecurity has just exploded over the last five years. It used to be that a college grad with some technical acumen could access a job as a Tier one analyst and a security operations center. But today, because of automation, tier one analysts have basically gone away, and the entry level position is what used to be a Tier two analyst, which demands a CISSP certification, which is three to five years work experience. So how do you break into cyber. Well, we need apprenticeship infrastructure in that space. We need incentives for companies and more likely intermediaries to hire you know, tens or hundreds of thousands of young Americans, deliver them the skills are experience, and kind of serve them up on a silver platter to the ultimate employers who'll be glad to take them and put them into those now level you know, tier two positions.

Yeah, it also seems like a just a more optimized, efficient approach, hopefully allowing a lot of individuals to forsake some of the diletorious effects of having significant amounts of student loan debt, especially with the stat you cited something like forty percent of which those people who even get the degree find themselves underemployed, not using that degree. So it's a really really expensive item that you hang on the wall that's not really paying off in the way that you hoped.

Yeah, it also seems like a just a more optimized, efficient approach, hopefully allowing a lot of individuals to forsake some of the diletorious effects of having significant amounts of student loan debt, especially with the stat you cited something like forty percent of which those people who even get the degree find themselves underemployed, not using that degree. So it's a really really expensive item that you hang on the wall that's not really paying off in the way that you hoped.

Ryan, we've got more than we want to talk about.

Ryan, we've got more than we want to talk about.

We specifically want to talk about the college verse apprenticeship, and like are these mutually exclusive? Get to some questions with you on that. Right after this, we are back.

We specifically want to talk about the college verse apprenticeship, and like are these mutually exclusive? Get to some questions with you on that. Right after this, we are back.

For the break, still talking with Ryan Craig about apprenticeships, and right, like, can you basically just share with us like an elevator pitch for an apprenticeship versus going to college, because yeah, I think there are a lot of folks who might be you know, they're kind of they're hearing you extol the benefits and how that could get you placed in a position where you're going to earn a lot of money while simultaneously not incurring a whole lot of student loans. But yeah, help somebody to do a paradigm shift're used to it. Yeah yeah, yeah, but yeah, so somebody who might be grappling with us, I would love to hear the elevator pitch for the apprenticeship.

For the break, still talking with Ryan Craig about apprenticeships, and right, like, can you basically just share with us like an elevator pitch for an apprenticeship versus going to college, because yeah, I think there are a lot of folks who might be you know, they're kind of they're hearing you extol the benefits and how that could get you placed in a position where you're going to earn a lot of money while simultaneously not incurring a whole lot of student loans. But yeah, help somebody to do a paradigm shift're used to it. Yeah yeah, yeah, but yeah, so somebody who might be grappling with us, I would love to hear the elevator pitch for the apprenticeship.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The elevator pitch is that obviously college for all isn't working for all right now, given the affordability and employability challenges that we're seeing, an apprenticeship model or an earn a learned model is a more equitable model right where we're not asking students to take a financial risk we're not asking to take an employment risk because you're hired and you're being paid from day one. You're being delivered the skills and experience that you're going to need to at least start to launch your career now. It doesn't an apprenticeship is not necessarily exclusive from a college model. You can do an apprenticeship and then perhaps return and earn a degree or some kind of certificate or post secondary credential. But I think that a model where we have as many apprentice jobs as we have places in freshman classes around the country so we can give high school graduates a real choice. Do you want to invest now in tuition and student loans, or do you want to take a less risky pathway, earn and learn for a few years, develop a better sense of what your interests are, what your capabilities are, and then perhaps either continue to work or return and be a more informed consumer of post secondary education. I mean, think about it. Other than buying a house. It's probably the most significant investment that most people make in their lives, and most young people are doing it at the age of eighteen nineteen twenty with very little information about what their interests are, what their capabilities are, and specifically how effective the schools are and programs that they're planning to or considering it. Those schools are to help them achieve the achieve their.

The elevator pitch is that obviously college for all isn't working for all right now, given the affordability and employability challenges that we're seeing, an apprenticeship model or an earn a learned model is a more equitable model right where we're not asking students to take a financial risk we're not asking to take an employment risk because you're hired and you're being paid from day one. You're being delivered the skills and experience that you're going to need to at least start to launch your career now. It doesn't an apprenticeship is not necessarily exclusive from a college model. You can do an apprenticeship and then perhaps return and earn a degree or some kind of certificate or post secondary credential. But I think that a model where we have as many apprentice jobs as we have places in freshman classes around the country so we can give high school graduates a real choice. Do you want to invest now in tuition and student loans, or do you want to take a less risky pathway, earn and learn for a few years, develop a better sense of what your interests are, what your capabilities are, and then perhaps either continue to work or return and be a more informed consumer of post secondary education. I mean, think about it. Other than buying a house. It's probably the most significant investment that most people make in their lives, and most young people are doing it at the age of eighteen nineteen twenty with very little information about what their interests are, what their capabilities are, and specifically how effective the schools are and programs that they're planning to or considering it. Those schools are to help them achieve the achieve their.

Goals, and those schools aren't really held to a standard of being forced to tell incoming students about what they are likely to learn. Hey, here are the stat like. You can find some of those things, but they're opaque, they're hard to find, They're hard to figure out, especially when you're a seventeen year old. Eighteen year old applying to a bunch of different schools, you're not equipped to figure out the ROI of that college degree. I will say, though, you made it sound like apprenticeships are a superior choice for a whole lot of people. I'm curious to hear you take because I'm sure you get flogged with the statistic every time you're interviewed about the fact that college grads make a million dollars more over their earning lifetime than the typical high school graduate. Why, in your opinion, is that misleading when we're kind of including apprenticeships in the conversation.

Goals, and those schools aren't really held to a standard of being forced to tell incoming students about what they are likely to learn. Hey, here are the stat like. You can find some of those things, but they're opaque, they're hard to find, They're hard to figure out, especially when you're a seventeen year old. Eighteen year old applying to a bunch of different schools, you're not equipped to figure out the ROI of that college degree. I will say, though, you made it sound like apprenticeships are a superior choice for a whole lot of people. I'm curious to hear you take because I'm sure you get flogged with the statistic every time you're interviewed about the fact that college grads make a million dollars more over their earning lifetime than the typical high school graduate. Why, in your opinion, is that misleading when we're kind of including apprenticeships in the conversation.

I love this.

I love this.

In a year's long debate with the progenitors of that status to the Georgetown Center of Education and Workforce. A couple of problems with that. One is those are aggregate numbers. Those numbers come from graduates who may have graduated twenty thirty, forty years ago, sort of prior to digital transformation. So it's not reflective of what's happened to grads in the last five or ten years, or what's going to happen to this year's class or students who are matriculating in college for this year.

In a year's long debate with the progenitors of that status to the Georgetown Center of Education and Workforce. A couple of problems with that. One is those are aggregate numbers. Those numbers come from graduates who may have graduated twenty thirty, forty years ago, sort of prior to digital transformation. So it's not reflective of what's happened to grads in the last five or ten years, or what's going to happen to this year's class or students who are matriculating in college for this year.

So that's one thing.

So that's one thing.

The bigger problem is that there's a huge self selection problem. So we know for a fact that people who young people who successfully run the gamut and a complete college overcoming all of these challenges come from wealthier, more stable, and frankly whider backgrounds than the typical the typical American and those those characteristics are also characteristic of people who are going to earn more without regard to what educational program they pursue or if they even pursue one. And obviously they you know, not only that, but they they've demonstrated these are people who you know, have the clearly have the capability to persist, you know, on a difficult pathway four year pathway, life hasn't gotten in the way they've completed college. Those are also characteristics of people who are going to make more money. So I have never seen a study that is somehow correcting for that self selection bias. And I suspect that I do think there is a college premium. I don't think it's a million dollars. I think it may be a couple hundred thousand dollars. And I think I think it's shrinking.

The bigger problem is that there's a huge self selection problem. So we know for a fact that people who young people who successfully run the gamut and a complete college overcoming all of these challenges come from wealthier, more stable, and frankly whider backgrounds than the typical the typical American and those those characteristics are also characteristic of people who are going to earn more without regard to what educational program they pursue or if they even pursue one. And obviously they you know, not only that, but they they've demonstrated these are people who you know, have the clearly have the capability to persist, you know, on a difficult pathway four year pathway, life hasn't gotten in the way they've completed college. Those are also characteristics of people who are going to make more money. So I have never seen a study that is somehow correcting for that self selection bias. And I suspect that I do think there is a college premium. I don't think it's a million dollars. I think it may be a couple hundred thousand dollars. And I think I think it's shrinking.

So you might say we're comparing apples to cabbage or something like that, right, Yeah, No, I.

So you might say we're comparing apples to cabbage or something like that, right, Yeah, No, I.

Think that's I think that's right. I think that's right.

Think that's I think that's right. I think that's right.

I think that you know the idea, and of course you know the what what whatever? The number is a couple you know, maybe it's half of half a million. That is, you know, kind of a rounding error relative to the differences between majors that we see. So if you're going to major in engineering or computer science, uh, and you and I and you tell me that you're going to complete that program, I don't care where you go. If you know that you're going to complete a program in those areas, you're almost always better off doing that than even perhaps an apprenticeship program that's a good investment. But if you but if you tell me that, maybe you even want to do that, but you're going to be crowded out because you know, the public colleges and universities that the vast majority of Americans attend, they have limited enrollment in those programs, and most most students who want to major in those areas are actually shunted off into less remunerative programs in majors. So if you tell me that you're going to major in psychology or sociology or unfortunately in the humanities, I'm very skeptical that there's any college premium right now, and you're probably better off pursuing some kind of earn and learned pathway, becoming a more informed consumer of post secondary education, and likely achieving a higher return on investment.

I think that you know the idea, and of course you know the what what whatever? The number is a couple you know, maybe it's half of half a million. That is, you know, kind of a rounding error relative to the differences between majors that we see. So if you're going to major in engineering or computer science, uh, and you and I and you tell me that you're going to complete that program, I don't care where you go. If you know that you're going to complete a program in those areas, you're almost always better off doing that than even perhaps an apprenticeship program that's a good investment. But if you but if you tell me that, maybe you even want to do that, but you're going to be crowded out because you know, the public colleges and universities that the vast majority of Americans attend, they have limited enrollment in those programs, and most most students who want to major in those areas are actually shunted off into less remunerative programs in majors. So if you tell me that you're going to major in psychology or sociology or unfortunately in the humanities, I'm very skeptical that there's any college premium right now, and you're probably better off pursuing some kind of earn and learned pathway, becoming a more informed consumer of post secondary education, and likely achieving a higher return on investment.

Yeah, and I feel like a part of that one million more over your lifetime problem as well is the fact that, like, of course, this is sort of like you said, it's it's aggregated, Like the data is based on previous years worth of data, and over the decades you see more and more students, more and more graduates from college, and so like if you just look at the simple supply and demand. If you look at simple economics, are there's more supply of grads, and so that premium is going to in my mind, it's only going to continue to decrease, you know, with the additional potential process supply of plumbers and then they're getting exactly Yeah, I don't think that we're saying that like that's what everyone should do, but like, of course you've got to take the financial considerations into account. But so going back a little bit, like you mentioned other countries like Germany, right, there are systems in place, so there is an infrastructure. What are the gears behind successful apprenticeship program? Like, what does it take in order for something like this to get off the ground.

Yeah, and I feel like a part of that one million more over your lifetime problem as well is the fact that, like, of course, this is sort of like you said, it's it's aggregated, Like the data is based on previous years worth of data, and over the decades you see more and more students, more and more graduates from college, and so like if you just look at the simple supply and demand. If you look at simple economics, are there's more supply of grads, and so that premium is going to in my mind, it's only going to continue to decrease, you know, with the additional potential process supply of plumbers and then they're getting exactly Yeah, I don't think that we're saying that like that's what everyone should do, but like, of course you've got to take the financial considerations into account. But so going back a little bit, like you mentioned other countries like Germany, right, there are systems in place, so there is an infrastructure. What are the gears behind successful apprenticeship program? Like, what does it take in order for something like this to get off the ground.

So I mean it starts with employers, right, There is no apprenticeship program unless you have an employer willing to hire an apprentice. Now, the problem is, as I said, employers need help in order to say yes to apprenticeship and yes to hiring apprentices. And that's what we've seen in other countries as well. So the question is how do we create this robust ecosystem of intermediaries apprenticeship service providers who can actively sell apprenticeship and apprentice jobs to employers and in many cases kind of provide a turnkey solution so that all the employers doing is saying yes to a trained new employee and paying the intermediary for that resource. That's actually what my day job is. My firm is Achieved Partners. We're the leading private equity firm in workforce and we build apprenticeship infrastructure. We buy business services companies and sectors where there's a talent gap and we transform them into apprenticeship service providers and talent engines for these talent starved talent starve sectors. But to do it broadly, to do it at the level of the UK or Australia or France, we need to invest. And today we spend over five hundred billion dollars taxpayer money federal and state on accredited colleges and universities. We spend less than three hundred millions, so less than one one thousandth that that amount on earn and learn pathways. Other countries on a per capita basis are spending you know, almost two orders of magnitude more on earn and learn pathways, So that's a huge Like the UK is it about forty billion on a per capita basis a relative to our three hundred three hundred million, so it's a and of course that money is making it much easier for an attractive for intermediaries to enter the market, build this infrastructure that we're missing and begin running around to employers offering to set up and doing the work of actually running apprenticeship programs. Apprenticeship programs are not easy to run. There's about ten different things that need to happen that an employer is not doing today, and most of the most important and hardest of which, again is employing and paying an unproductive worker for a period of time. So the best the best scenario for the employer, as I say, is what if you have an.

So I mean it starts with employers, right, There is no apprenticeship program unless you have an employer willing to hire an apprentice. Now, the problem is, as I said, employers need help in order to say yes to apprenticeship and yes to hiring apprentices. And that's what we've seen in other countries as well. So the question is how do we create this robust ecosystem of intermediaries apprenticeship service providers who can actively sell apprenticeship and apprentice jobs to employers and in many cases kind of provide a turnkey solution so that all the employers doing is saying yes to a trained new employee and paying the intermediary for that resource. That's actually what my day job is. My firm is Achieved Partners. We're the leading private equity firm in workforce and we build apprenticeship infrastructure. We buy business services companies and sectors where there's a talent gap and we transform them into apprenticeship service providers and talent engines for these talent starved talent starve sectors. But to do it broadly, to do it at the level of the UK or Australia or France, we need to invest. And today we spend over five hundred billion dollars taxpayer money federal and state on accredited colleges and universities. We spend less than three hundred millions, so less than one one thousandth that that amount on earn and learn pathways. Other countries on a per capita basis are spending you know, almost two orders of magnitude more on earn and learn pathways, So that's a huge Like the UK is it about forty billion on a per capita basis a relative to our three hundred three hundred million, so it's a and of course that money is making it much easier for an attractive for intermediaries to enter the market, build this infrastructure that we're missing and begin running around to employers offering to set up and doing the work of actually running apprenticeship programs. Apprenticeship programs are not easy to run. There's about ten different things that need to happen that an employer is not doing today, and most of the most important and hardest of which, again is employing and paying an unproductive worker for a period of time. So the best the best scenario for the employer, as I say, is what if you have an.

Intermediary that's offering.

Intermediary that's offering.

To do all that and actually employ and be the employer of record of that apprentice until they become productive. And those are the kinds of models that we're seeing grow rapidly in the US, but only in sectors where the demand is just so the gap is just so large that clients are willing to pay for it. We need investment so those earn and learned pathways can flourish across the economy.

To do all that and actually employ and be the employer of record of that apprentice until they become productive. And those are the kinds of models that we're seeing grow rapidly in the US, but only in sectors where the demand is just so the gap is just so large that clients are willing to pay for it. We need investment so those earn and learned pathways can flourish across the economy.

Ryan I could hear some of the limited government types saying, hold on, wait a second, you want to use tax dollars to pay for some of these apprenticeship programs. Look at the national debt, look at the deficit. We can't afford something like this. What would your response be to that? And I mean, can you help us understand how much money is being spent in the higher education system in general at the federal levels. I don't know, maybe maybe these are funds that are better spent.

Ryan I could hear some of the limited government types saying, hold on, wait a second, you want to use tax dollars to pay for some of these apprenticeship programs. Look at the national debt, look at the deficit. We can't afford something like this. What would your response be to that? And I mean, can you help us understand how much money is being spent in the higher education system in general at the federal levels. I don't know, maybe maybe these are funds that are better spent.

Yeah, well that's exactly it.

Yeah, well that's exactly it.

So five hundred billion federal and state taxpayer dollars on colleges and universities, three hundred million today on earn and learn. If you compare a college student with an apprentice, and you ask how much public support are they wedding? For every dollar of public support that an apprentice receives, college students getting fifty bucks.

So five hundred billion federal and state taxpayer dollars on colleges and universities, three hundred million today on earn and learn. If you compare a college student with an apprentice, and you ask how much public support are they wedding? For every dollar of public support that an apprentice receives, college students getting fifty bucks.

Wow.

Wow.

So I don't know whether the right ratio is one to one or two to one or ten to one, but I'm pretty sure it's not fifty.

So I don't know whether the right ratio is one to one or two to one or ten to one, but I'm pretty sure it's not fifty.

To one or a thousand.

To one or a thousand.

Yeah. Yeah, So we I mean, you know, all we're saying is we need a more balanced approach. And there are states like California that have gone ahead and begun investing in that infrastructure before even before you beginning to rebalance away from traditional colleges and university. So, California last year launched one hundred and s twenty five million dollar initiative to help build this earn and learn infrastructure and it's working. Apprenticeships are growing twenty thirty percent a year in California right now.

Yeah. Yeah, So we I mean, you know, all we're saying is we need a more balanced approach. And there are states like California that have gone ahead and begun investing in that infrastructure before even before you beginning to rebalance away from traditional colleges and university. So, California last year launched one hundred and s twenty five million dollar initiative to help build this earn and learn infrastructure and it's working. Apprenticeships are growing twenty thirty percent a year in California right now.

Yeah, there's some good news out there. There are states who are creating this infrastructure, and like there are also businesses. I mean, so even though we've got a long ways to go, there are some opportunities out there. Can you highlight some of the most interesting apprenticeship opportunities that are currently in existence in the US?

Yeah, there's some good news out there. There are states who are creating this infrastructure, and like there are also businesses. I mean, so even though we've got a long ways to go, there are some opportunities out there. Can you highlight some of the most interesting apprenticeship opportunities that are currently in existence in the US?

Yeah, I mean we're seeing this higher trained deploy model, which is truly these sort of turnkey apprenticeship programs where business services companies are adding this as a new element of their value proposition there. You know, for example, we have a company that is a Salesforce solutions business and they launched the first registered apprenticeship program for Salesforce and now they're able to deliver Salesforce talent to their clients in addition to Salesforce solutions. And it's made a world of difference for for the company and for their clients. And so we see talent as a you know, really exciting new you know, for every problem comes up an opportunity. We have a we have a talent problem, we have a problem with a sort of unbalanced education workforce system. But that that can that can create opportunities for companies in sectors where there is a talent gap. And that's exactly what our firm, Achieved Partners does, is we partner with founders and we help build these new apprenticeship models and sectors like cybersecurity, workday SAP, supply chain, even some healthcare sectors as well.

Yeah, I mean we're seeing this higher trained deploy model, which is truly these sort of turnkey apprenticeship programs where business services companies are adding this as a new element of their value proposition there. You know, for example, we have a company that is a Salesforce solutions business and they launched the first registered apprenticeship program for Salesforce and now they're able to deliver Salesforce talent to their clients in addition to Salesforce solutions. And it's made a world of difference for for the company and for their clients. And so we see talent as a you know, really exciting new you know, for every problem comes up an opportunity. We have a we have a talent problem, we have a problem with a sort of unbalanced education workforce system. But that that can that can create opportunities for companies in sectors where there is a talent gap. And that's exactly what our firm, Achieved Partners does, is we partner with founders and we help build these new apprenticeship models and sectors like cybersecurity, workday SAP, supply chain, even some healthcare sectors as well.

Okay, how would a resurgence of apprenticeship programs change the way the high school's done? Because typically the put at least the high school I went to, it was college track all the way, baby, And if you weren't the kind of person who was going to go get a four year degree, I think you were left to your own devices, like you didn't really know what to do because everybody was supposed to be on this four year college track. How would more apprenticeship programs impact high schools? And kind of maybe some of the incentives or some of the ways, especially that high school seniors are led to think about their future.

Okay, how would a resurgence of apprenticeship programs change the way the high school's done? Because typically the put at least the high school I went to, it was college track all the way, baby, And if you weren't the kind of person who was going to go get a four year degree, I think you were left to your own devices, like you didn't really know what to do because everybody was supposed to be on this four year college track. How would more apprenticeship programs impact high schools? And kind of maybe some of the incentives or some of the ways, especially that high school seniors are led to think about their future.

So, yeah, i'd say forty fifty years.

So, yeah, i'd say forty fifty years.

Ago, that wasn't the case in high schools had you had two tracks. You had a college track, and you had a career in technical education or vocational track as well. Today, thanks to decades of college for all, there is only one track. And you know it's it's demonstrated no better than the fact that, especially now without required standardized testing, the only quantitative metric that colleges can evaluate as your GPA and AP and honors classes, which is sort of the pathway to selective colleges, are weighted on a five point scale, whereas every other class is on a four point scale. So you decide to take a CTE class in high school, some sort of vocational class, you're penalizing.

Ago, that wasn't the case in high schools had you had two tracks. You had a college track, and you had a career in technical education or vocational track as well. Today, thanks to decades of college for all, there is only one track. And you know it's it's demonstrated no better than the fact that, especially now without required standardized testing, the only quantitative metric that colleges can evaluate as your GPA and AP and honors classes, which is sort of the pathway to selective colleges, are weighted on a five point scale, whereas every other class is on a four point scale. So you decide to take a CTE class in high school, some sort of vocational class, you're penalizing.

You're screwing yourself over basically.

You're screwing yourself over basically.

Yeah, exactly exactly, And so ct has withered on the vine as a result. But if you can imagine a world where we have as many apprentice jobs as there are places, and there are apprentice programs across the economy, then there truly is a destination for high school grads. Other than college. And I think that's the key to rejuvenating CTE at high school, at the high school level, and that's really exciting, and that's actually an issue as well.

Yeah, exactly exactly, And so ct has withered on the vine as a result. But if you can imagine a world where we have as many apprentice jobs as there are places, and there are apprentice programs across the economy, then there truly is a destination for high school grads. Other than college. And I think that's the key to rejuvenating CTE at high school, at the high school level, and that's really exciting, and that's actually an issue as well.

I mean, you want one.

I mean, you want one.

I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Richard Reeves, who's talked about the particular challenges that our education system is having for young for boys and young young men, and how they're underachieving, and how there are some colleges now that are you know, almost two thirds.

I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Richard Reeves, who's talked about the particular challenges that our education system is having for young for boys and young young men, and how they're underachieving, and how there are some colleges now that are you know, almost two thirds.

Female young women thriving in the higher education system as it's currently constructed, young men less.

Female young women thriving in the higher education system as it's currently constructed, young men less.

So yeah, at every level though, I mean met young you know both boys at every level, boys are behind the system is not set up for them. You know, there needs to be a more an option for boys and young men that's more immediately engaging for them where they can see the result in the rationale for attending and engaging and doing work and succeeding in their in their programs. And CTE is clearly clearly has TOULD should play a part in that. But again, you can't rejuvenate ct unless there's a destination for them. I wrote a piece after the book call saying it's called college or Chipotle. And that's basically the choice that we're giving young people today. Right, you can go to college or you can work a frontline job at Chippotle. And that's that's it. Right.

So yeah, at every level though, I mean met young you know both boys at every level, boys are behind the system is not set up for them. You know, there needs to be a more an option for boys and young men that's more immediately engaging for them where they can see the result in the rationale for attending and engaging and doing work and succeeding in their in their programs. And CTE is clearly clearly has TOULD should play a part in that. But again, you can't rejuvenate ct unless there's a destination for them. I wrote a piece after the book call saying it's called college or Chipotle. And that's basically the choice that we're giving young people today. Right, you can go to college or you can work a frontline job at Chippotle. And that's that's it. Right.

There's really nothing in between.

There's really nothing in between.

Which is crazy because we know there are like millions of jobs that fall somewhere in between on the spectrum. It's a spectrum of a career workforce opportunities. It doesn't have to be that bold and that crummy of a dichotomy.

Which is crazy because we know there are like millions of jobs that fall somewhere in between on the spectrum. It's a spectrum of a career workforce opportunities. It doesn't have to be that bold and that crummy of a dichotomy.

That's exactly right. And other countries are doing a much better job of that than we are, And all we need to do is look at what they're doing and begin to replicate some of their policies. But the good news is that we're making some progress. I mentioned California. There was some some positive news in the minibus that funded the federal government six weeks ago that directed the Department of Labor to begin changing the way they're funding apprenticeships, which is going to be really beneficial starting in twenty five. So things are things are moving in the right direction here. And the other piece of good news is that everyone agrees. Right. I speak to progressive democrats, I speak to conservative Republicans. Everyone's in favor of this, so it will it will happen. We'd like it to happen.

That's exactly right. And other countries are doing a much better job of that than we are, And all we need to do is look at what they're doing and begin to replicate some of their policies. But the good news is that we're making some progress. I mentioned California. There was some some positive news in the minibus that funded the federal government six weeks ago that directed the Department of Labor to begin changing the way they're funding apprenticeships, which is going to be really beneficial starting in twenty five. So things are things are moving in the right direction here. And the other piece of good news is that everyone agrees. Right. I speak to progressive democrats, I speak to conservative Republicans. Everyone's in favor of this, so it will it will happen. We'd like it to happen.

Quicker love it.

Quicker love it.

Yeah, what is it that Churchill says about America that we finally picked the right thing after exhausting every other viable opportunity. That feels like this for.

Yeah, what is it that Churchill says about America that we finally picked the right thing after exhausting every other viable opportunity. That feels like this for.

Apprenticeships as well, taking.

Apprenticeships as well, taking.

The slow round, And I will say that, you know, the challenges on college campuses are are also going to help accelerate it. You know, traditional colleges are are kind of at a probably historic low in terms of public opinion and public and marketing.

The slow round, And I will say that, you know, the challenges on college campuses are are also going to help accelerate it. You know, traditional colleges are are kind of at a probably historic low in terms of public opinion and public and marketing.

So okay, well, yes, seaking of high school students and helping folks to understand the ration now behind the career paths that they're taking. We've got a few more questions for you right after the break, along the lines of maybe guiding younger generations and making the right decisions for their future. We'll get to that more right after this.

So okay, well, yes, seaking of high school students and helping folks to understand the ration now behind the career paths that they're taking. We've got a few more questions for you right after the break, along the lines of maybe guiding younger generations and making the right decisions for their future. We'll get to that more right after this.

We're back. We're still talking with Ryan Craig about apprenticeships a cool way to earn money. While you're learning, you're growing in your skills, but you're also growing your net worth. You're avoiding the college debt. And ran we talked about this just a little bit. You mentioned a couple of kind of specific degree choices. Hey, if you're going to go be an engineer, that's great. Apprenticeships might not be the best route for you. Go get the four year degree. The college debt you take on is going to be more than worth it in the end. Let's say apprenticeships do become more common, and you know, you were just mentioning, Hey, the writing is on the wall. Things are looking better than they ever have before in this country. On that front, how would an individual decide whether that's a better route for them than going to get the traditional four year degree. It's obviously going to take a lot of years, a lot of messaging, a lot of infrastructure to kind of start to make these changes and start to point people in a different direction. But then how would people know which choice is right for them?

We're back. We're still talking with Ryan Craig about apprenticeships a cool way to earn money. While you're learning, you're growing in your skills, but you're also growing your net worth. You're avoiding the college debt. And ran we talked about this just a little bit. You mentioned a couple of kind of specific degree choices. Hey, if you're going to go be an engineer, that's great. Apprenticeships might not be the best route for you. Go get the four year degree. The college debt you take on is going to be more than worth it in the end. Let's say apprenticeships do become more common, and you know, you were just mentioning, Hey, the writing is on the wall. Things are looking better than they ever have before in this country. On that front, how would an individual decide whether that's a better route for them than going to get the traditional four year degree. It's obviously going to take a lot of years, a lot of messaging, a lot of infrastructure to kind of start to make these changes and start to point people in a different direction. But then how would people know which choice is right for them?

Yeah, look, I mean I think that the reality is that the vast majority would be would benefit from some kind of earn and learn option after high school first, before college, for the reasons we discussed in terms of becoming a more informed consumer of post secondary education. I think those that would want to go straight are those who are admitted to a you know, selective university where it's affordable for them, you know, great, go and have that you know, wonderful experience. And those who are you know, very confident that they'll be able to complete a you know, an engineering or computer science program at any any universe. I think that those are those are kind of the two categories of please go ahead. But if you're going because you can't think of another option and you don't know what you're interested in, then you're probably going to be better off working for a few years in a job that isn't Chipotle, in a job that actually has a career path and where there's built in training, and where you could continue if you if you so wished to earn a living or after a couple of years, you could stop, take stock of your interest capabilities, you've made some money, You've probably have some savings at that point, and decide, you know, what post secondary pathway or program makes the most sense for you. I think ninety nine times out of one hundred, you're going to make a better choice than you would have a couple of years ago.

Yeah, look, I mean I think that the reality is that the vast majority would be would benefit from some kind of earn and learn option after high school first, before college, for the reasons we discussed in terms of becoming a more informed consumer of post secondary education. I think those that would want to go straight are those who are admitted to a you know, selective university where it's affordable for them, you know, great, go and have that you know, wonderful experience. And those who are you know, very confident that they'll be able to complete a you know, an engineering or computer science program at any any universe. I think that those are those are kind of the two categories of please go ahead. But if you're going because you can't think of another option and you don't know what you're interested in, then you're probably going to be better off working for a few years in a job that isn't Chipotle, in a job that actually has a career path and where there's built in training, and where you could continue if you if you so wished to earn a living or after a couple of years, you could stop, take stock of your interest capabilities, you've made some money, You've probably have some savings at that point, and decide, you know, what post secondary pathway or program makes the most sense for you. I think ninety nine times out of one hundred, you're going to make a better choice than you would have a couple of years ago.

I totally agree. Yeah, And this is not only for students who are trying to figure out what to do with their lives. But I mean as a parent, like, who wants to see their kid go off and be so encumbered by the amount of debt that all these and I'm not taking on those parent plus loans to help come on, Yes, absolutely not. Yeah, and you to want to prevent that for yourself as the parent, but you also want to prevent that burden for your kids, yes, because yeah, you see the millstone around the neck that it is for so many the pain of the decades of multiple years of student loan payments.