The Post-Pandemic Future of Broadway and Movies

Published Apr 20, 2021, 4:00 AM

Broadway and movies have both been deeply impacted during the pandemic. To get a sense of what lies ahead, Alec checks in with Robert Wankel, chairman and CEO of the Schubert Organization, and Pamela McClintock, senior film writer for the Hollywood Reporter. Broadway shuttered completely on March 12, 2020, and reopening remains a challenge due to safety issues for performers and audiences as well as capacity requirements that mean ticket sales won’t cover the show’s costs. Movie theaters face fewer safety issues with reopening at reduced capacity but the industry is now reckoning with the fact many of us have gotten used to watching even the newest of new releases from the comfort of our couches. If you love the thrill of a darkened theater and being transported, this episode will make you think about what comes next. 

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This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing from I Heart Radio. When I think back to the early days of the pandemic and those moments when we started to grasp the severity of what was happening, a particular date stands out March twelve, two thousand twenty, the night Broadway theaters went dark around the same time, movie theaters closed as well, and while there has been little to replace live theater, many of us have gotten used to streaming movies at home, very used to it. Today we're talking about the future of the movie industry and Broadway. Later, we'll talk with Pamela McClintock, senior film writer at The Hollywood Reporter. She's covered the movie industry for decades. But first I'll be talking with Bob Winkel, CEO of the Schubert Foundation and perhaps the most powerful business person on Broadway today. In the history of the Broadway theater, there are a few organizations as storied as the Schubert's, founded by the three Schubert brothers in the late eighteen eighties, the Schubert Organization owns seventeen of Broadways for theaters, and Broadway is big business, bringing in billions each year and employing nearly one hundred thousand people. Despite how powerful he is in the business, Bob Wankel says that while growing up on Long Island, his family didn't go to see Broadway shows that often occasionally, but I certainly would not say I was a theater rat. And I came to Sherbert because I worked for the public accounting firm that ordered the Sherbert Organization. And that's how I got the job, and that's how I've been here for forty six years. And you've outlasted everybody I have outlasted. I don't want to make light of the fact that your colleague passed away. Phil Smith were recently yet great guy, somebody who I've met many times, and he was a lovely guy. When you come to the Schubert Organization, you started with them. When V now explain to people the significance of the distinction of the Schubert Organization, meaning it's different from the Needle Landers, it's different from ju Jamsen and has a similar mission to make money and to produce Broadway shows, but it's different. How it's different because it's owned by the Sherbert Foundation. The Sherbert brothers. When they died, they left all of their assets after they took care of the family to the Sherbert Foundation. And Subert Foundation is dedicated to the preservation of the arts in this country and we give away thirty two million dollars a year or so, or last year we gave away thirty two million dollars to five thirty not for profits across the country. Now does just confine ourselves to Broadway in New York. The houses that you own, they're not retail spaces where people show up with a check in their hand and they just rent the space. You want your tenants. You want to partner with them to make sure that people that are in there are successful correct correct. Described to me the process by which the organization that's creatively the prospective tenants, we actually decide what shows are going to play in our houses. Plenty of producers come to us, but in the end we get to decide which shows we're going to book. And that process in recent years is being done by our creative VP and myself does the Shubert Organization try to find and hire people who have the greatest acumen as to what's going to work on Broadway and what's not. Let's face it, it's very challenging what works on Broadway and what doesn't. You could go in with the best possible creative team and the best possible title and it just doesn't fly. And that's happened many times that shows just don't work. I mean, obviously, it's always wonderful to be able to book a show that's a big hit in the UK because you already know it has an audience, and even though when you transfer them, what worked in the UK does necessarily work here. We're looking, obviously to have shows that are going to run, and sometimes we're dealing with creative people and we want to give people a chance, and we want to give new producers a chance. So there's lots of reasons why we book shows, not always that we think everything is going to be a hit, but we own the most playhouses, and so if you have a play most of the people come to Subert because we have all of the smaller houses, even though there's many musicals and some of those playhouses. Now, when you mentioned the pipeline, if you will, between London and New York, are those negotiations usually pretty standard in terms of who's doing who a favor? When Andrew Lloyd Webber is printing money over there and calls you, is Andrew Lloyd Webber doing you a favor or you doing him a favor? Or is it mutually? Back scratching here, I'm going to say it's a mutual. I mean, we've had, we've enjoyed the benefit of most of Andrew's shows here in New York, and we are certainly talking to Andrew about his new show which is going to open in the UK in May or June, called Cinderella. Well, obviously are talking to him about the show for New York and for people that aren't the pillars of that whole world. When others are coming to you to do shows, what is the basic understanding about who gets your attention? Is it all about relationships? Well, relationships are important, but as I say, we like to give new producers an opportunity, and since we have the most houses, we have the luxury of doing that. And we've certainly booked many a show from new producers, and we are focused on that for when we come back to bring in some new shows with some new producers. So it's a combination. It's a combination of availability of the buildings. It's when the show is going to be available, what size house they need. There's a lot of factors that go into the decision, but you know variety. We like to go across the board. I must say, as you're talking and I'm thinking about this idea of houses and sizes, and people would say to me, we would do a show. The first time I was on Broadway was to do Loot. It was my first time I'm Broadway, and they said, oh, now, wonderful for you. You're in the music Box, which is just the most wonderful theater. And then when I did street Car, they were like, and you're in the Barrymore, just the perfect theater for the film Williams and everybody's sense of the houses and the individual identities of the houses, do you find that's true to each of those houses have their own identity. They do, and many directors and creative teams they would prefer particular house that they believe works for their show. Much more challenging these days because the demand for theaters has been so great, so therefore many people will take houses not their first choice. But music Box is one of the great musical and playhouse theaters, as is the Barrymore and you played the Shawnfell too, as I recall, so you've played some really good house played the show. Now that you mentioned that, I must say the reason I love Broadway as you do tap into this history and you do experience, especially when I was younger and it was more wide eyed about it all, and you do come across not a lot, but there's enough characters, as you well know, colorful characters in the Broadway world, none more so than Jerry. Yep, he was one of my great mentors. I'll only tell one Jerry's story here, maybe two, which was when I got sick doing street Car and Jerry would call me up and go, my boy, how are you feeling, And I'd say, I'm really sick, Jerry, I had the flu. I missed three shows one weekend and I didn't realize it's I mean, I knew, but in an own the urgency of when you're one of the leads in the show, when you're out of the show and Jerry calls it, he goes, I was wondering if I should send over one of my doctors to examine you, would make sure you're okay. And I said, no, Jerry, I'm okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna think I'll be okay by tuesday. I'll be back tuesday. I'm really said, all right, my boy, you get to bed and drink plenty of orange juice and get your rest. And he was such a character. My next question for you is how Broadway has changed in your mind, which is a very broad question. It seems to me that some of the cannon, if you will, the real classics of drama especially and some of the musical theater have been assigned, perhaps to the not for profit world. That it's not necessarily as easy to bring Iceman Cometh, even if you have the real Piston and the engine there with Nathan or someone like that to play that great role. That a lot of these real war horses in the of the dramatic theater are not as represented on Broadway as they used to because they're too whisky. Do you agree or not? When you put a big star in them and they play for twenty weeks, they do really well. And we've certainly had all of those classics in our buildings over the years. It's all about since so many people have seen the show it's about the star power that is performing it. And those are shows that acquire great performers, so they've done very well. I mean they're not for profits to some of them. But to get the star power is that the problem? Do you guys ever sit down when you're mulling over who's going to come in with what show? And why do you mull over? You're going to take a chance on somebody in the lead who isn't necessarily as big as star as you might like for your comfort level. It depends on the show. There are shows that don't need star power, it's more about the show. And then there's shows that the star is an insurance policy, and everybody likes insurance policies because the cost of even doing a revival of one of those classics has really gotten to be very expensive and it's only going to run for sixteen or twenty weeks, and everybody wants to recoup their money. The star power is important to certain shows, and other shows create stars. I'll use music Man and Jackman as an example. Sometimes the show is announced with a star and I'll sit there and think, my god, people still want to go see that show? They do, but they like the fact has your judgment and it's going to make a big difference, and it will be you know, a giant, mega hit. Good advance on that show. Absolutely, they're coming back in what after the first of the year. There are schedule to start performances in December. Most of our shows are coming back. Now. Is there been a change in the economics of Broadway? Like do you sit there and go? It's more expensive. These tickets are more expensive. We can take less risks because of the demographic of the audience. There's no question the tickets are more expensive. But the cost of producing is really very expensive. We're sixty labor. The cost of doing new musicals is anywhere between fifteen and twenty million dollars to put it on the stage. Plays are between four and a half and five million dollars to put it up for sixteen weeks, and then the operating courts will kill you what they need to gross in order to pay the bills. So it's expensive. But there's no better form than a live show in the a action between the performers and the audience. Whi's why our attendance is booming. We've had record attendance for a number of years now, So everybody wants to come to theater. They're doing it on the road. The road theater businesses through the roof. Also, people want human interaction when they go out for entertainment. This is kind of an obvious remark, especially to somebody like you, But I find that there this is no comparison to being there live and seeing that coming out of someone's body live. No, there's no That's why that human interaction. I mean, you get a different performance every night now, you sure can. Well, you're the performers are playing to a different audience every night. Now. One thing that I'm wondering from you, how it's changed or not changed, is the significance of reviews and press. Of course, the Times is one example, and the Tony Awards themselves. Those are important components positive Times, positive Tony nominations. Everybody wants to get great notices because great notices helps sells. But that's why people spend a great deal of money marketing the show's up front, because if you build a big enough audience, then you can let the word of mouth really be the key factor in selling shows. And I think word of mouth is probably one of the most important reasons people go to see shows. You've got to please the consumer. You got to put on a good show, and the consumer has to like it, and the consumer has to say, you must go see Mr Baldwin. Is the Times as significant as it used to be? It's not as much as it is anymore. Why do you think, Well, because the readership is. People get so much of their news and stuff online and social media and all of these things. Everybody wants a great New York Times review because it's still the New York Times. It's still considered the cultural paper. And when they give a great notice, it usually shows up in the box office instantly. As far as the Tonys are concerned, do you see where you would like to see changes in how the Tonys are presented, awarded, calculated? Well, No, we seem to think the system is pretty good. You do we do? You do? Do? We think that there's enough voters and the administration committee and the nominating committee have spent a lot of time and focus on that, And the integrity of the awards are we think are good? And the diversity of that committee and the diversity of that pool of people. If that's something you'd like to see change, it has been changing. It has, Yes, absolutely, the diversity has been being worked on and the diversity has changed. We think the nominating committee is really a very good, distinguished group of people. In my life. March twelfth of last year was nine eleven. That was the day everything shut down. I was doing a TV show. We were in rehearsals. We shut down. They said, go home, take me through the thinking. Did you go on stages? Did you think we're going to reopen in June, July, September? Were you stumbling along thinking or did you know? Did you have an access to information, government whatever? Because it's such so much money involved with your business that this was going to be the long haul now in actuality, when we closed on March twelfth, our initial closure was for four weeks through April twelve, and then we extended it. We certainly did not realize that we would be closed for a year or probably a year and a half before we come back. So when it didn't happen for July fourth, we focused on Labor Day. Then we focused on the holidays. But obviously, as Corona got worse across the country because of how many people we put in the buildings that we were concerned that would take a while before we could come back, and so we were the first to go down and will probably be amongst the last to reopen because we need to open at almost capacity. We can't really deal with social distancing. The economics of our business don't work. I got an email I was people reached out to me. I was amazed at the level of participation and enter g surrounding a benefit to save the West Bank Cafe. And where all the great network of Broadway related. It doesn't matter what it is, whether it's also Joe Allen Day's artiste, and all the great Broadway saloons and restaurants and so forth, all of them struggling and hurting desperately, including the staffs of all these facilities, no question. And I was wondering did the Shubert Foundation Was there any discussion about giving money to these people who worked for you know, the foundation doesn't do those kind of grants. As I say, it's focused on the performing arts. I mean, obviously we the industry has worked hard to help many people within the deal and the Actors Fund has been a great support to those that are really in trouble. We've worked on getting government packages. I think you're going to see the new Cares package is going to be very helpful. For the first time. The package is going to support the commercial theater, the commercials. It has never received federal grants before, so hopefully we're our concern about getting everybody back, and we've worked as a community to try. We've got so many tasks, force everything going through the Broadway League because the whole community is on it. We're very anxious to bring everybody back. And if you've been in Times Square, you will see Without Broadway, Times Square is just effectively closed. It's a very small part of New York City, but it's fifteen percent of its economy. Because we bring fifteen million people to the theater, they spend a great deal of money. They go to the hotels, the restaurants. We directly and indirectly support nine thousand people. So Broadway is important. Many people don't realize that in New York the real pillars of the economy in a Wall Street and the financial markets. The other is the real estate market, and the third of the arts, and that includes museums and all of the attractions that are in New York. I was wondering what that in my because Broadway is such a huge piston in the economic engine of the city. How much cooperation, how much assistance, how much attention did the state government give you. Obviously, we need the governor to sign off in order for us to reopen, because he has to agree to our protocols or dictate various protocols. So it's important for the state to work with the state. You probably have seen they have this new pop up program to bring the arts back to New York which are going to start in April, and so that was done by the state. So obviously we will work with the state in terms of protocols. I mean, our point is to bring back our cast crews and obviously our customers in a safe building so that we want them to come back, and we want them to come back in big numbers. We're gonna do whatever we can to make people feel safe in returning to our buildings. The Shubert Foundations CEO Bob Winkle. If you like conversation with extraordinarily successful business people, go to our archives. From my talk with Starbucks Howard Schultz, who says he never predicted the specificity of people's coffee orders, I'm told there's eighty five thousand gyrations to customization and Starbucks. I never imagined that customers would start telling people exactly what they wanted, But I think one of the drivers of our success has been our ability to customize what you want when you want it. Our original business plan when I was raising the original money was a hundred stores, and I was having a terrible time and I didn't have enough money to reprint the business plan, so I crossed out a hundred and wrote seventy five. I mean, that's how tight things were. Here more of my conversation with Howard Schultz that Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Bob Wankel talks about Broadway's role in helping New York bounce back from tough economic times in the past. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing. The Governor of New York, working with health officials, will determine when Broadway theaters will reopen, but Bob Wankel says it will be a while. Theaters operating a reduced capacity simply can't cover the costs of putting on a show each night. The Governor did agree to reopen theaters with thirty three percent of capacity a hundred people or a hundred and fifty people max. Now, obviously a Broadway theater can't open with a hundred people are hundred fifty, but some of the smaller theaters can. We're hoping that as the vaccine rolls out better and the cases keep going down, which they have been doing quite nicely over the last that those restrictions will be eased. I mean, we don't see mess going away in the theater for at least through it the end of the year or longer. That will depend on protocols and concerns and safety. We have the same concerns over our cast and crew. I mean, the performers will be you know they as you know you've been in a number of Broadway theaters. There's not exactly a lot of luxury space there. People are working closely and obviously the performers cannot wear masks while they're performing, so we we are concerned. We've been working closely with all of the unions and the gills. I would imagine backstage you've got to be even more diligent because if the cast goes down, if anybody gets sick back there, then you're right back to Squire one. Yeah, we don't want to have to open and then reclose. And so obviously the safety and the science is getting better, the testing is getting better. So hopefully the vaccine will be the real game changer that if they continue to roll it out and seventy and nine of those will take it, that is a game changer and will make people feel comfortable. So the COVID aside, there's also the concurrent economic damage to the city. We've had guests on the show to discuss the comparisons to the nineteen seventies and the last time the city was laid so low economically. One are the comparisons you think back to nineteen seventy five and the last financial crisis in terms of what happens to Broadway where we're in the period of this intense financial crisis. What happened back then, well seventy five was when Broadway was just coming back. A chorus line moved into the Sherbert Theater and that was a game changer. I think the last problem was really nine eleven when we shut down, but we came back in two days and the city and the mayor said, go to a Broadway show. Go to a Broadway show. That's all he said, every press conference, every day. Go to a Broadway show. And it made a difference, and New Yorkers came out and Broadway did extraordinarily well after nine eleven. And I do believe that people will come back to the theater in big numbers as long as they feel safe. People who once they feel comfortable, will of course come to New York for that thing. You can only get a New York roots or at that level. Someone said to me, what do you love most about New York? I said, you close your eyes at eight o'clock at night, and you know that the curtain's coming up on the greatest performers in the world, all on stages across the city. Ballet, opera, symphony, musical, drama, poetry, you name it. I mean, when eight o'clock, the curtain comes up and it's New York, it's New York. The greatest of the greatest are here, and people will come to avail themselves with that. However, a striking number of people are leaving the city when we have an economic crisis here. Do you think that there's a core of support for the arts in New York that you're worried about them leaving. We are the capital of the aucts in many ways, and I think people will come back. I don't think as many people that said they would never come back to New York. They're going to come back to New York and show the heart Alec. When you live in New York, the sickness is. The crazy thing is that when you live in New York, that's your town and it works for you, and you know where to go to get your coffee, and you know where to go to get your eggs, salad and your bagel. I remember in the early days when I first lived there, and I didn't have enough money to really appreciate it. And finally I dragged somebody to an event and we go see some symphony and the symphony starts and the tears are running down my face. Where a Carnegie Hall watching you know, Malla or something. And my friend said, why do you stress yourself to go from your home. You're in your living room and you're getting dressed, and you get in a car and you travel here and you stand in line you're going to sit down. She said, why do you put yourself through this? And I said, what is a greater act of self robbery than to live in New York and not avail yourself of the things in New York itself. My friend of the silly line, he said, that's like opening your Christmas presents and playing with the boxes is in New York. If you live here and you don't avail yourself of the things you're here, you might will move out. Well as you know. Just wait you start bringing all your kids to a Broadway musical and watch them light up. I it's so amazing. I just want to say. I don't think anyone in the entertainment business has my heartfelt sympathy more than you do, Bob, because you became the head of the most prominent theatrical enterprise and history just as COVID shut it down. Bob, what can you say? What a nightmare? And I can't wait for this to be over. I can't this to be over. Listen, the glory will be when it comes back. And it will come back, people will realize how much they missed the arts. They missed the arts they do we know that, we know how much they miss it. Bob Wankle, CEO of the Schubert Organization. While Broadway theaters are likely to be one of the last entertainment venues to reopen. Movie theaters are already selling tickets at reduced capacity. Pamela McClintock is the senior film writer at The Hollywood Reporter. She says that COVID nineteen accelerated the challenges that movie theaters were facing even before the pandemic. Attendance has been falling for years, right, but prices have gone up, so every year we have a record year, But that belies the fact that attendance has actually dropped. So they were already struggling when COVID hit, and and the struggling was because of streaming. I think the struggling is for numerous reasons. Gaming to go completely different. Media has taken their attention, right, or they don't want to pay that much to go because the night out of the movie is, right, you have to pay a babysitter. Let's see, your company have to pay a babysitter. You have to pay for concessions. It can easily cost like a hundred dollars when all of a sudden done right, you know. Lauren Michaels once joked with me. He said that the cartoon he envisioned was two young men or standing. One has an iPhone and the other one says, what are you watching? And the guy hold the phones is Lawrence of Arabia on an iPhone. That we've completely lost, We've completely lost the magic of cinema as we know at across high Do you think that's true. I think it's in jeopardy. And I think that people will want to get to the house when the pandemic comes back, but I think it will be difficult, difficult, how difficult. Whereas let's say there was the population that went to the movies once a year, right, maybe somebody like me it was a little bit older, doesn't like crowds, and then with the pandemic, will I ever return? Frequent movie goers have always made up the biggest chunk of the audience, and you know that may not change. But the number of people that, let's say go to the movies once or twice a year, if that changes, theaters are in a lot of trouble. Well. I think there's a couple of points that could be made about this principle, among which is that I think people are going to the movies last, especially grown ups, because there's not much there for them. You know, It's like a diamond shape. You know, at the top is great, at the bottom is pure crap, but in the middle of the thick middle of it is all forgettable. Is something that can't be perfectly enjoyed on a computer or on a flat screen in your home. Do you think that's correct. I think there's an argument to be made that actually mid range movies may prosper post pandemic, because I think people will want to get out of the house and a movie like Nomad Land does look beautiful on a big screen. But the question is, will Hollywood, you know, leave those movies in theaters or just put them on streaming? Right? And that's to your point, what will the studios provide that product to the theaters? But I mean I wonder also what might the changes be in film exhibition, Like how many theaters serve booze? Now I don't know the percentage, but I would, right would imagine maybe more will right, I wonder what are the changes that they're going to now allow the movie industry is going to go to the government's local or whatever and say, hey man, we need a little help here to get people back let's open a bar. Yeah, there is an argument to be made that the more luxury cinemas will do better than the non luxury in the postdemic world. I mean, I wonder if movies will creep toward Broadway where the tickets become so expensive that it becomes an experience You don't You just don't have that often. The mp A just released their annual movie going report, and what is your analysis of that? Well, this speaks to your fact about mobile It says last year, for the first time, globally, streaming subscribers hit one billion, you know, just exploded. And it says here that more than of children and more than fifty of adults were watching movies and TV shows on their mobile devices, which is crazy. The idea of watching anything on the phone is just preposterous to me. What about you here, you are covering this quadrant of the business. How do you consume movies and TV? I really like the biggest screen I can get in the home. I'm of the age and the generation to the idea of watching something on a phone is just insane to me. I have no no interest unless I was desperate and I had no other resources. You know, when you said that the business wasn't doing that well before the COVID and that the prices were going up, but the ticket sales were going down. So they had record sales. They were all doctored because the prices were regulated. When you get into the COVID period, we see these changes. We see these changes that are going to have an impact on festivals and marketing. They're gonna have a impact on exhibition. And I want to ask you about that specifically, which is that when Warners announced, when they said we're gonna stream what was it wonder Woman? Yes, described what happened with that? Why was it a shock? There was some movie that were getting delayed again and again and again. Wonder Woman was one of them, delayed from being exhibited in the normal way theater. Yes, because you know when the when COVID first hit, everyone thought, oh, we'll be back in two weeks, or we'll be back in a month, or okay, so we'll move this movie again. And so finally with Wonder Woman, they talked to the exhibitors and they said, we want to do this plan where we released it in the cinemas that are open and on HBO Max and Christmas Day and the exhibitors were okay with that because they need product. But then Warner Brothers rocked the town a few weeks later when announcing they were going to release their entire slate on HBO Max and in cinemas, and people went insane. Did that violate a contract they had with the exhibitors. It doesn't violate the contract, but it sort of strains the goodwill. So there was no contract exhibitors had with the studios to guarantee that they had the first crack at their release. No, but in past times, if the studio did that, the theater would just say we're not playing it. Take a walk. But now theaters are in such a quandary because they need products, so they're willing to take it even if it's debuting on streaming. But it's still a difficult proposition. I know that here on Long Island, the Hampton's Film Festival, which is the one I'm heavily involved with. Like other festivals, no doubt that everything's been upended. But you know, out here we went and bought a couple of these inflatable screens. And for people who don't know how this works, you got you find a place out here. We have one benefactor, someone who's on our board, accessed the parking field of a private school out here, a big field that they only have a big piece of property, several acres, and we took their decent sized parking lot. They put up the screen there, and then you get a piece of equipment you buy that beams electronically the sound into the radio of your car and you dial onto a low frequency on the band and you get the sound for the movie in your car. You just have to turn on the FM radio when you're there. So we have everything we need. We have a limit of a hundred cars. Let's say let's say each car brings at least two and maybe four people, So we have a hundred and fifty maybe a couple of hundred people coming to each screening, which is for us, is decent. We're not out to make any money. It's not a revenue source for us. But it's all just about offering some programming, you know, while we can't during the COVID. So we did that, we worked fairly well. Then we wondered to ourselves, is it going to stay that way? What are the things that I talked about, the alcohol thing and what are the things that are happening they're going to remain? Did HBO did time warnant to say that as soon as the COVID is over there going to go back where they're going to keep it this way? They're saying they're going to go back, but no one is quite sure whether they really mean not right, I think what's in their interest? I think it's too early to say. I think it depends on how quickly we rebound and get back to normal. But I think drive ins, which is what you're essentially talking about in terms of what you did, I think they will stay fashion for like a couple of years. You've been covering this aspect of the business for how long? Almost fifteen years? What are some of the seismic changes you've seen in this world? It's funny one seismic change and I don't even remember what year this was, but I just watched it again. It involves you, and it shows me how much the kind of movies that are playing in theaters are have changed. Which was that movie Malice? I don't remember what yeready made that, but we shot it right, but it was that think about it. There was all those kind of adult drama thrillers that you don't see anymore in theaters. The middle movie left. Yes, we used to joke and say the thirty forty million dollar movie died. So movies, So movies now are five million dollars or two five million dollars and everything in between. You when you like when Nancy Myers did It's Complicated, and I did that movie with Meryl when we did the movie It's Complicated, and it was, you know whatever, the cost was eighty million dollars for spoken word comedy, no thrill, no action, no nothing. And that's the kind of movie that one of the last of its breed. You know that that one kind of got in there somehow. But all those movies like Malice and things like that, they died to make way for Mission Impossible. That type of movie, that big budget action thriller has squeezed everybody else out, or you'd have the very small movie like No mad Land. Is that what your experience has been. Yeah. Absolutely, it's gotten to the point where you have the big blockbusters and then once in a while you'll have a breakout and then you see the power of you know, the big screen experience because it becomes a water cooler movie and everyone has to see it like crazy Rich Asians was like that, but it's it's very rare anymore. Pamela McClintock, Senior film writer at The Hollywood Reporter. If you're enjoying this conversation, don't keep it to yourself. Tell a friend and follow here's the thing on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Pamela McClintock and I wonder if there is any living filmmaker who can restore the power of a theatrical release. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is here's the thing. Before the pandemic, films were usually released exclusively in theaters before being available for streaming. However, the pandemic has created a new set of challenges for studios as well. In December, Warner Brothers announced it will release its entire slate of projects in theaters and streaming on HBO Max at the same time. Despite the shock waves this cost in Hollywood, Pamela McClintock says, the collapse of the theatrical release window started years ago. It's called one word Netflix because Netflix came along and you know, it can go to a film festival, which I know you attend a lot of and know about the markets, and can spend fifty million dollars on a movie, so they can just out buy all the small distributors, right. I don't want to disparage Netflix because you know they for people who don't really appreciate I'd love to get your take on this because of your knowledge of distribution, you know, one day there's no market for their product. This includes syndicated TV thrives because there's nowhere else to go with the product. If I have a library of episodes of Friends Were Seinfeld, I'm going to send that to the affiliates around the country to rebroadcast that. And that's the secondary market for this abundance of all this TV because there's nowhere else to go. Then when someone comes up with Netflix and they say you can stay home and watch it on demand whenever you want, the on demand thing is critical. Obviously you can watch it on demand, then all hell breaks those But the thing for me is that once TV got that beachhead in people's homes, like there was like the fireplace, it was a gathering place. TV has thrived on the fact that you didn't have to leave your couch. I recall one company tested this in a kind of a sea level market somewhere Dayton, Ohio or something. It was like a small city. Before the movie comes on, it says, are you hungry? Click yes, Type in your zip code, click enter. Click what type of food you want? Greek, Asian, Japanese, Italian pizza, Click which one Enter Here's a list of the following restaurants in your area that deliver that food. Type in your order. Click send. Given your credit card information put in the gratuity. Movie begins. You're watching the movie bing Bong the food us. Press pause, Go to the door, get the food. Come back. While you're watching the movie, Press pause. This is the one that really killed me. Press pause. The A list actress is coming through the door of the hotel with a dress on. Press pause, Click onto the dress. Do you like that dress? Oh yeah, I love that? Gasp of yours that was priceless, But click on the dress. The car pulls up. Matthew McConaughey gets out of the car. Click the car. The following is a list of dealerships in your area that sell that car. The dress, the shoes, the car, all of it. Go shopping while you're watching a movie. Now, I found that chilling. The people that own the companies now are a different breed of people. Meaning when you have these conglomerates that own these entertainment companies who want these companies to perform, they've made an investment in these companies that they want money and they know there's a lot of money there. Potentially, they don't care what goes in there as long as it makes money, as long as it pays the rent. There are no creative people at the top of the networks or the studios now. They're accounting people, marketing people, their executives some companies who've been moved over where it's all monetizing money, money money. Do you agree? You just have to look at who is the companies? Right, A, T and T owns Warner Brothers, Comcast, A Catal company owns NBC Universal. Right Sony has been owned forever by electronics company. Yeah, electronics company. But yeah, and I think the race to streaming, everybody wants more subscribers. How do you get more subscribers You put more movies on your service or more series. So the question is where will the pressure be in terms of where you put your movies. The thing about Netflix, as we all remember, they started by sending you a DVD in the mail. Remember when the beginning of that Netflix was Blockbuster meets FedEx, Blockbuster meets ups. Don't leave your house. Here's the envelope, you mail it back towards. That seems like something out of the nineteen fifties now doesn't seem like. The big turning point was the idea of putting a whole series on a one time bing binging all ten episodes. First, Why do you think people want to binge? Why? I think if you're into a story, you don't want to wait a week, right, You're ready for it. You're ready for it. And Netflix doesn't have any ads. I mean, you know the difference. I'm sure when you watch broadcast TV, if you watch it anymore, you're like, WHOA, look at all those ads. I forgot what that world was like. I wonder if people like Scorsese, for example, who have been highly critical of streaming films, and will the Scorsese's of the world be able to say, hey, you got to show my movie in a movie theater only for a number of months. I'm gonna have a wide release, and I'm gonna say you can't have my movie if you stream it within six months or three months or whatever they think is right for them from the theatrical I wonder if that's gonna happen. We they're going to force them to keep the movie on screens. Who do you think has that power? What director is big enough to have that power. I don't think anybody has that power. I'm just being fanciful here, but I'm wondering, what is at all possible, What is in any way possible to lure people back to movie screens into movie theaters. Like you said, people want to get out. You know, it's the same thing with movie theaters and home screening. And I wonder what the casualty of that is. Is that the concentration that it takes to really enjoy a movie is gone. I want to digest that film the way the director intended me to digest that film, to sit and engage when that that film in a dark room and nobody talks, and I just you beam at me what you want me to take in, and I take it in and I breathe it in real time, and we don't press pause and all this other crap. I wonder if the death of that has influenced the kinds of stuff we have on like right now, I think the content of a lot of TV is very violent. There are shows I binge. I'll name you one example, and I don't want to name names. When they wrote themselves into a corner, they just started killing people. I wonder if research they're doing it's promptly them to make shows that it doesn't really matter whether you pause it or not. You don't have to be that engaged with it in the first place. Does that make any sense to you all? I think that makes sense, and I think for me personally, you know, I'm not going to name names, but there's some movies that all it is is buildings falling down and lots of noise, and it doesn't really captivate me. You know, it doesn't catch my attention. And you mean that not as a sign of your age, myself included, which is when we get older, we want something a little more thoughtful, a little more I think age for sure has a part of it. But I just you know, there's a series of movies that are incredibly popular, and I can't, for the life of me, can't ever watch them because they're so loud and so destructive. So we talked about how the impact of the quarantine has had on movie festivals, which are of course are big markets. Many people that don't understand, who are not in the business that when you go to a film festival, we don't just sit around and eat wine and cheese and kiss each other and take pictures with each other and watch each other's films. They're there to sell films. It's business. It's a pure market. Some festivals more arct than festival quite frankly, and that has been severely damaged by the COVID, and the festivals have had to use their thinking caps to get themselves out of that, which the one I work with it that they've done very they've done fairly well, although it's still horrible the drag on the business. Number two critics and what I'm wondering is you go to a movie and you have seated with their popcorn and their raisinnets and everything and their drinks, a crowd of the age appropriate demographic, and the Batman movie comes on, and they have nine different trailers before the Batman comes on. They have a whole twenty minutes of trailers coming out, or it seems there certainly feels that way of trailers all for movies of the same ilk, which is just violent men punching other men in the face, then getting punched out of windows and falling down the sides of skyscrapers. Violent movies, one after the other. However, this is marketing. You got that crowd there, that's your crowd there. They paid to see a Batman movie. While we have that captive audience, Let's tell them what else is coming? How is the COVID affected marketing of films and advertising of films? You kind of hit the nail on the head trailers in theater, trailers or your most important source of advertising. That's what I've been told. Yeah, that's been gone. And then what's number two is sports? Right? So sports or have been off TV? So what do they do? I've heard some funny thing, maybe gold for Nascar, that all of a sudden got a ton of movie advertising, Like can you imagine the dichotomy of that? You're literally people like she's lining up his spot. If he sinks this put, if he birdies this put, he will win the jacket. He'll be wearing the green jacket and he puts and people cheer, you go, We'll be right back after this word from the Avengers screaming and the smashing the cacaphony. Yeah, you're right. I'm not quite sure that's the best mix the movies and golf. Yeah, there was some what was it? Maybe tennis too? But basketball has been back on right. But I guess also with their TV shows, are they doing a lot of movie advertising on the TV shows they own because they own both? Yes, I think there's been a lot of TV advertising for TV shows on the sports as well. No, but know they advertising movies on television shows? Probably? I wonder about that because they own both products. Yeah, probably a big like Oprah Winfrey. I don't know if there's any movie adds, but that would have been I'm sure they would. I'm sure. Well, I mean that's a ratings bonanza. Yeah, they need money. What's one thing you hope to see when we come out of this? You want to see what from your perspective as covering this movie industry exhibition distribution for the Hollywood Reporter, what would you like to see when we come back. I'd love to see like people walk in the can red carpet again. They'd like to see a movie premiere if it's not virtual. The tradition, Yeah, I think the tradition and seeing people interacting. I think it'd be nice to go to the Beverly I don't know, some swanky Beverly Hills restaurants, see studio heads at lunch, you know, just some sort of normalcy, business as usual. Yeah, well, listen. Thank you very much, Thank you so much for tracking me down. Stay safe, Stay safe. Pamela McClintock, Senior film writer at The Hollywood Reporter. Hi'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Carrie donohue, and Zach McNeice. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Thanks for listening.

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Award-winning actor Alec Baldwin takes listeners into the lives of artists, policy makers and perfor 
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