Alec sits down with director Stephen Daldry, whose new movie, "Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close," opens on Christmas Day.
Stephen offers a window into his past – from training as a clown and driving giraffes through Pompeii to being serenaded with Billy Elliot songs by a persistent Elton John. Alec and Stephen trade notes on acting styles -- and whether being Mayor – of New York or London – would be satisfying. Stephen says he makes work “to change the world;” Alec’s no longer sure change is possible.
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I'm Alec Baldwin. And here's the thing. Stephen Daldry grew up in the theater. He began directing plays at age sixteen. He went on to run several theaters before spending most of the nineteen nineties at the Royal Court in London. The New York Times has described the Court as the most important theater in Europe. Over ten years ago, a friend brought him a film script, which he decided to direct. That film, Billy Elliott, earned him a Best Director nomination, so did his next two films, The Hours and The Reader. His fourth movie, Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close, opens on Christmas. It's a Christmas movie about nine eleven. It's a story about family trying to somehow not get over it and nor heal because you can't heal from that, but trying to come together again. This movie has all the trappings of Hollywood movie making, an infamous producer Scott Rudin, and a list stars Tom Hanks and Sandra Bullock, but none of this seems to distract Stephen Dawdry. It never feels like a big movie. It doesn't know, it never feels like it always feels like something you made and something you did, you know, homemade, something you did in your workshop. And I don't know what you who you make stuff for. I always make stuff for myself and my you know, you make stuff for your friends, yourself, and see whether it makes any sense to you. Your first film was Billy Elliott. Correct. Yeah, but that was a that was a really weeny one. Yeah, that's what I mean. So obviously you see where like that was. That was a small film and then you we we we made that literally we made it for next to nothing. And so what's the difference. How's it changed for your since it hasn't had no pressure on this. I mean, you know, Warner Brothers were so unbelievably supportive. It was rubbing off your robbin off. He runs the studio and I took the film to him and I said, you know, this is what I made with your money. So I showed it to him in Pasadena with a crowd about six other people, and at the end of he said, thanks very much. I said, what was the genesis of the film for you? In terms of it? Did someone come to you with a script or you had written Rowden had the script written, had brought the book from Jonathan's Hafing Fro who written this book called Extreme That and Qutty Close, and he had asked Eric Ralph to write a couple of drafts, which he had done, written both in a day, and ring back and said, yeah, I mean, I mean, is there a difference for you in making films and producing shows and directing shows in the theater? The difference between the two A big difference. One is in the theater, everybody's in the same room, so everybody can see what the beast is. Everyone you can see what it's made. And you start at the beginning, and you finish the people you start with, the people you finish with, and the movie the people you prep with, the people you shoot with, and the people you shoot with at the people you finish with. The people think it's more like a relay base making a movie. To me, it's more like cooking, you know, like there's a guy that makes the lettuce out in California, there's a guy that grew the tomatoes and Georgia, and none of them ever meet each other or know each other, they ship at all, and you cut it up into a salad and mix it all together. And that's why it's it's more lonely because it's so compartmental wise that word yeah, and you know when you're actually it's different. You know, this movie is different. And it's really interesting because on the other movies I've done, the moment of creation, the moment that you're actually making something. In the in the past, it was only the cameraman could really see what actually you're making. The digital revolution means that on set on this movie, for example, we had a screen. You're looking at what it's going to be seen in the movies as you're shooting it, and everyone can see it. It's not like everyone's looking around a little videomolitor is digital. So was this your first digital film? First digital film? And you preferred it? I preferred it, And you don't buy into the nothing is richer than film films for nostalgia film, the romanism, I felt, I don't you just carry and you shoot forever? Literally you don't have to say you know action or cart or you just you keep rolling. I mean I remember the first day that I ever shot anything on film, and you know, suddenly around the camera people are saying these extraordinary things to me, like you know rolling, you know, all these things. When was that billy it? And people are getting They're saying all these strange words, you know, and then everyone's looking at me and I'm going, what are they doing? What? And you go, oh, I'm meant to say action? People really say that do thing? I thought it was some sort of light joke. And since then, I've never really liked saying action, which is why I prefer just to keep rehearsing and roll the camera while we're rehearsing, and then eventually he's into Some people don't want to say the word action. I find a bizarre on myself, and when it freaks the actors out, actually do it now now it is not very intimate, it's not and it's a it's a it's like an assault on the I'm in bed with a woman. I like when she says action that that vibes Yeah, that gets you going. I directed a film once and I couldn't stand it. I really didn't care for it. But I wonder. I've always wondered if I had the inclination to absorb more about lighting and cutting and editing, and has that been a big thing for you? There's that journey of learning more and about how films are put together. And I love editing you do. It's my favorite bit of the pressure. It is a film is written three times. You write it to start it, then you rewrite it as you make it, and then you do the final and proper right as you put it all together. And it's like a jigsaw puzzle if you like jigsaw puzzles, if you love making movies. But it's actually putting the pieces together, finding out the rhythms. And I would imagine that the experience of editing makes anyone a better filmmaker in terms of teaching you what you need to have in the can people say to me, you know, what should I do to learn how to make a film? Just getting by a final club prom and just start shooting stuff and then just start editing and you'll learn everything you need to know about making a movie from editing it. Did you feel that you had learned everything that you needed to learn about directing actors from your years in the theater in England in terms of directing actress for film, was there a difference? It was the same. I think it's the same. Well, let it rip. Most of my life, you know, all my life has been in the theater, you know, and yes, all you need to work out with an actor is how to talk to them. And actors come with their own method like you. You know, you've come with your own method oology of where you've picked up and usually actor as a lot of actors, particularly American actors, if I may dare to say this, let it come from some notion, some they've picked up some ideas of what acting might be or what what a methodology might be. It's easier in Europe. It's easier in England because usually people have got a shared methodology. In other words, there's a language that people sort of understand that you can actually have a conversation about what what literally you're meant to be doing at any one particular time. A lot of American actors got lost in this idea of the method or some sort of notion of character. They keep going on about where my character this or and even what are you talking about? Where did you get this idea of character from. It's easier in Europe because people tend to be more strictly come from a training whereby a common training, a common training, there's a lot of training going on here, but that training is a different kind of training. It's a different sort of training. So the difficulty is just finding a language to talk to actors so you can be honest. You know, one time I was watching a concert and I was watching some famous musician like Tom Petty. He was performing at a benefit and I turned to a friend of mine and I had this chill run up my spine and I said, do you see what these people are doing. They're all doing the same thing at the same time, and they're all of one at the same time. It doesn't happen in the theater and enacting a lot of times it does in England. No, No, it's really hard. It's the only people. Sometimes people are doing their own thing. What is the job of the doctor? The job of the doctors. You've got one job is to make sure everybody's in the same show. And you can have fantastic films, fantastic fantastic theater. There in one show, he's in another show, she's doing something else. They're all being brilliant in their own way, but they're on the same space. Getting everybody in the same space. It's the hardest thing. But what's your methodology? Do you define your acting in a particular way. Well, it depends. I mean I try to think of it in terms of a style. If I do, especially this television show now for six years or two, you hit a kind of a a style that's similar to some of the theater I've done, like Orton or Hector MacArthur, where there's a kind of a farcical rhythm, there's a key you play and don't put a lot of unearned policies and they're really paces a big part of it. But did you train? Yeah, I went to n y U. And as I get older, everything is technical. I mean I literally mark my lines in the scripts that I do now lack of musical score, stop hard, constant, here, move, dip rise, all these things. Emphasis. Before that, though, it was all about authenticity. I would say that method acting was about like if you said to me, which I want you to do this, I'd say, well, I've got to go meet a bunch of surgeons. Let's go find out how hard surgeons really behave in the operating room, because I don't want to do anything as an authentic And then of course there's that famous Walter MATHO line where they said to Walter math how do you want to go observe some surgery. And he said, no, I'm a movie actor. No one expects me to know anything about surgery. So we're just gonna think it and indicate it. You're right about the technicle. I mean in England we do tend to be more technical. But a matter you know even remember you know I work with Mail Streep on a movie, and you know a Mail has this extraordinary emotional ability. But she does pause before the verb. And I know why you're doing it because you think I can't cut away. I can absolutely show you I can cut away from you even if you pause before the verb. And she knew she was pausing before the verb. Well, she she definitely is a maestro. She is. She's then her and Nicholson that they know every trick there is to force that cut in the film or to deny the cut in the film. It is thrilling when you go and you have a director who can help you. I've had to do what the modern actress had to do, which is to come prepared to be self directing in case you didn't have anything for me. Baganized, because I'd rather come and have you say to me. Well, of course it's this, and I would don't you realize it's this and you have got all font of information, but I would go crazy. But I find it really crazy when it is come in self prepared because they've done some journey that they get and you, well, well this is and again you get there showing your photographs of a trip they went on without you. Yeah, and then they again this comment my character and you're gonna look, it's not your character. Okay, it's ours, and we're going to make it up. Now, you're interesting. I've never heard that every before, that it's ours, it's ours, it's not your character. I'm going to remember that it's ours. Well, my character wouldn't do that. Well, let's change the character then, because we're going to do that. You know what is let's talk about a character they would do that. That's right, let's change it. What do you miss about running up by side the court which everybody just adores the work there and loves the chord? You miss it? I miss it, and I suspect I'm going to run another theater. I mean, it's too much fun. It's about community. It's about having a community of people that you're staying with for a period of time, the number of years you commit yourself to and trying to do something. You know, I don't know why you make work. I mean I make work to change the world. I think that's any reason to do anything. And getting a group of people in to start a conversation with the community and with a society you live in is going to be the greatest thing you can do. Can you do both right now or now? You certainly can't make movies in mouth theater and you can't movies are too obsessive. Ye, It's it's like it's it's two years of your life. Just whatever you do, it's two years too. The Billy Elliott is closing on Broadway. Billy, It's closing on Broadway generally eight. Well, what was the genesis of the film? How did you decide you were going to make the film? And then talk a little bit, if you would, about how the journey from film to Broadway and this enormously successful show on broad It's a very simple tale. An old friend of mine, Lee Hall, wrote a script. I read his script and said, oh, yeah, that's this is great. This is and you've been wanting to direct a film? No, no interest in films at all. But I read this and I went, this is greatly, this is really good. You should do this. Would you want to do it? I said, well, I don't know. I'm running a theater, you know that. Well, okay, let's have a go. And so we made it. Nobody was interested, by the way, you know, a kid who wants to be a dancer, please, But we took it to Can and the first showing in Can, for some unknown reason, Elton John was there and the party afterwards out and said, you know this is going to be better on stay. I mean, it's a great movie, but I want to write the music for this on stage and we went it's out on John and have been him before, you know, it's like, oh my god, you know, no, thanks but now And then he kept on going for what say, because we just finished the film and you just weren't ready to think about it, not even ready for it. He was persistent and carried on, and he would literally start writing stuff and write songs, and he'd ring me up in my kitchen and I put him on speaker phone and he said, look how about this one? You know, be cooking in my kitchen, and then speaker phone and he really didn't fall into a kind of a Lewis Carroll hole there. I think the stage show is better than the movie. It's found its natural home, Isn't it amazing? How that is a big part of this business. How you do fall into a hole one day you weren't sitting there. I would imagine at the court saying I've got to get out of here and make films. You know, it doesn't happen to you every day, though, that life changes in the second, like things just happen. You know, you're sitting on American airlines and something happens. I mean, just yes, somedays some flights are different than others. I can honestly say there's been some that are more eventful than others. One such turning point for you, I think from what I could gather from reading, was that you were a clown's apprentice. Correct. Yes, I was interested in circus when I was finishing university, So I I suppose I sought out this guy called Elder Milette. He was in a great Italian clown and then I went to work with him in Italy. I worked in a year I credo or fe. It was a hard circus. I mean it wasn't What does that mean? I love that. What does it mean A hard circus? A hard circus is it's three shows daily, hard schedule, a hard schedule. I was in charge of the giraffes as well. I had to look after the giraffes, and then we would travel by train and then I would take the giraffes off the train and put them into their little drive the giraffes. So it really is like you see in these period movies where it's like like Greatest Show on Earth everything, where it's there's everyone's multitasking everyone. You're the clown and you're claiming the giraffe pen driving the draft through these Pompeii me the draft from Pompeii. And people talk about, you know, the animals being mistreated, which I you know, people have different opinions about, but the people being so mistreated, the people who were they mistreated by management, management themselves, the hierarchy of drinking, love of very very tough living. It was a hard life. We were basically going to be training in Italy for a year and then we were going to go off to Moscow State Circus. When the call, you know, Okay, we're going off to Moscow. Now, I just went, you know what, I've done this for a year. I'm off. You're filmmaking experiences. It sounded a moment ago when we were talking like they've been relatively emotionally secure experiences for you as a filmmaker, and you've been very content and happy making films. Filmmaking hasn't been another hard circus for you people. I do understand a lot of filmmakers have a very hard time making films, and I've been blessed. I mean, I've got friends of mine who have had experience of sitting in the trailer and spending your whole time trying to defend what you're doing and fighting and cutting and and I haven't had that experience. But a lot of that is because of Scott Rotten, who, for me, has always been a huge filmmaker support fighting for me in the right way. Where were you, I mean this is obviously a nauseating cliche, but where were you when nine eleven went down? With Scott written on the actual nine eleven. Yeah, Scott and I were finishing a movie we made called The Hours, finishing in London. We're in the editing room and in London, and Scott got the first call, which must have been about like nine, just saying the plane just gone into the South Tower. And then we went downstairs to the common room, the green room as it were, and the TV already switched in UK, the TV switched straight away to live coveration and we basically sat there all day making phone calls as it unfolded. And then Scott and I was stuck in London trying to get back to New York for five days. And I think that's one of the reasons why Scott sent me this book, because it was such a powerful experience for the two of us to go through that together saying, you know, do you want to make a movie about about that time? And so for me with Scott to tell not our story, but to tell a story about one family on that day felt I felt like it was something we were both wanted to do. The age of the boy is how old in the film eleven and the age of the actor who portrayed him. Did you have like a huge nationwide talent hunter, worldwide talent hunt? You did? We did? You saw how many people for the role? Did you? Isn't amazing see people don't realize that they were, like, it really is kind of amazing. I think when you say to people, you saw three thousand people for the role of this child in this film, what was it about him that made you choose him? Scott rud And the producer had seen him win Kid Jeopardy and he remembered there was a kid that one Kid Jeopardy. Actually, by this point we were at the eleventh hour, and you know, I'm still going I don't think we can make thee because you just hadn't felt that I haven't really family kid and Warner Brothers again, I said to them all the way through, you know, if we can't find the kid, you're gonna spend a lot of money up front here pre production casting. But if we don't find the kid, we should really just call it a day. Again Wallners, Yeah, we agree, that's fine, you know, but we should go through this process. So and then eleventh Scott remember the kid and Kid Jeopardy, and we brought him in and Thomas had totally different to the character. There's no loss in Thomas's life. Is a very happy kid with great family, very smartly one Kid Jeopardy. For that I had this extraordinary emotional life. The long audition process inevitably, and I took his final tape to warners and I said, you know, well, I think that's the kid. If you don't agree when we let's stop it now. And Jeff we watched the tape together and he said, yeah, I think that's the Kid's gonna make your movie. You're listening to here's the thing. More from my conversation with Stephen Dowdry. In a minute. This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. I'm talking with director Stephen Daldry. Do you find something out about yourself every film you make? Is there a part of you that you lay there that you weren't aware of? When you make a film, everything's therapy, don't you find? Yes? It is every piece of work you make. You you have to explore yourself the reader? What was the therapy for which I love that film? By the way, I was just I was completely spend with him. I worship her, Okay, I worship her. I can't go I'm unabashed about it. I am completely immune to all the charms of all movie actresses except her. I saw her an Award show and I gradually swallowed my turn. She's fantastic, um the reader. I spent a lot of time in Germany as a kid. I spent you know, learned German and spent a lot of time there. And the idea of a country crippled for many generations by something that happened, and how it was still coming to terms with what it went through and where I went through it and collective guilt. So for me it was an expiration of my school days in Germany. And what about The Hours, Well, The Hours is a complicated film about the one thing that they all the films that I may tend to have in common, is they're all about loss in one way or another. And what the nature of loss is. Everybody has it at some point in their lives. And that was a study and three women who are going through a profound sense of loss. Loss is really my subject. Your two women when the oscar coming out of your how did you feel about that? It's been enormously gratified enormously I mean, it's always fantastic when your actors do well, isn't Did you find that Kate and Nicole Kidman in the Hours who won the Oscar for that film. Did you find that they came to the party with that British sense of working in the shared experience with you? Were they more in line with that? They are? They were and up for rehearsal. I love rehearsing, and Nicole rehearse forever. Kate rehearse forever. On this film, we rehearse forever. You know, it's part of the process. And do you rehearse well. I've done films where we did some rehearsal, and I remember one time they had a very formalized rehearsal process, but it was constantly interrupted by the department heads coming in and summoning the director to go and look at something, and he run out, So we know we had his attention, you know, fleetingly. I would crave that. I'd love that. So you're married, when you have a child and you live in a I've read about you live in a communal home. How would you describe that and what do you like about that? What do you prefer? Love? Communal living extended families is the way that we've always lived. When I say extended family, I don't mean blood family, I mean just living in a basically a commune situation. I think it's better for the kids. You know, the kids have bought up. You know, it's the old adage, but you know, a village is better than anything else. And so it's and how that's how we live in New York and that's how we live in London. I find that very appealing. Honestly, revolutionari your life. I watch Big Love. I think guys spent with that. Are you gonna be involved in the Olympics? Yeah you are? Are you really? Yeah? I'm the executive producer of the London Olympics. Why the funk would you want to do that? Because it's the greatest collective experience I think a country can have and a city can have about sharing and welcoming the world to its home. Where do you live? I live in Meatpaking District? You live here, live here, kids go to kids go to school? Ps? Three? And why do you live here? Where we live here? And we live in London. When you talk about it, I get a sense of London is really home in your heart. The kids get to school here, but in your heart, I mean, you do prefer London if you could. Doesn't work like that, It doesn't know, it's totally shared, but there's there a sense that of some real pride you have, you want to be a part of helping London put its best foot forward in terms of the others for the world. I love doing anything that's not to do with making movies or making theater, and say, the idea of getting involved in the Olympics just felt like a no brainer to me. I mean, of course, now, why do you say anything that doesn't have to do with film and theater you're in I mean, are you someone who you hold back and hold back and hold back and only make a film or do a play on an as needed basis? You just can't help yourself in your cave and you do it. I've tried to resist it for as much as I can, and I would love to do something else. I came up with my ideal job the other day. It's taking me some time. I'm fifty three years old, and I finally came up and I think I nailed it, and it may work for you too as well. I thought about opening a bookstore where we actually never sell any books. Everybody comes in and I say, oh, I'll order that for you, probably somewhere remote, so they would anticipate some kind of lag time, get espressos and smoke cigars and have some nice olives and and crewded tee and so forth. And I get to meet people to be social. They'll say, when in the book comming and I go about five or six weeks, I'll call you. We never sell one book, but we have a day. I love that idea. What is your idea? What do you what's your bookstore on Spain? Idea? What do you want to do? Talent? Country planning, traffic lights? Really interested in traffic lights, subway system an engineer, mass transit systems. Love to get into all that stuff. Are you gonna run from Mayor of London? Really love to run? I'll run from Afflon. But are you running for president? I thought this radio show was the beginning of your Is that what it is? I thought it was? Should start to rethink that, man, I never really thought of it that way. To use the radio show as a as a launch pad for my political career. I never thought of that. Are you going to have a political career? I doubt it now, Really I doubt it now. Yeah. The older I get, the more I feel that that that all of it has changed, I think you should run from Mayor. Well I don't. I've lost my appetite. I mean, I think and pus the people that are running from Mayor. I know this is terrible. I look at them and I said, I don't see myself in that crowd. Feel like a guy on a date that can't You can just tell he just can't wait to get his hand up your blouse, you know, before the even the lights go out in the theater. They're all just so horny for it morning, for their own ascension. Whereas for me, I've got a job now, which I got a good job, and it is the most creative thing in the world. Am I doing The Insider with Michael Mann? Am I doing some edgy like finely chiseled social drama. No? Am I doing to kill a mockingboard? I'm doing a sitcom. But we have fun and it's a family and I live in New York. I've got a life. It's been a great harbor for me in my life. Give this up for what I give up money and fame and position, and six I give up this wonderful life I have now in exchange for the chance to really change things. I'm not quite sure you can anymore. You can't believe me, Well, maybe I'll move Ton. Can Can I work for you if your mayor of London? I'll work for you if you run from mayor. I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I think you're directing me. Okay, Oh, this is a character we're creating. Oh, I see, I think you should run for mayor of London. I think you should run for mayor of New York. And I think you should get pessimistic about it. You can change the will You don't have to answer this question because they's going to embarrass you. But I'll just see up this ball. You're very charismatic man, You're very charming, and you're very seductive. You have a kind of a very seductive veneer to you. And I'm wondering, do you think that that helps you with what you do? Because when the guy walks in the room or the woman, because I work with some woman directors, but there's mostly men, let's face it. And when that guy walks in the room and he looks like a high school shop teacher with a bunch of pens sticking out of his park, you know what, I maybe if it doesn't have any kind of cheat to him at all. You're a very seductive guy, and you're a very very kind of appealing guy. Do you find that that works for you? Do you use that to your advantage when you're directing? Don't smirk at me, do you? I don't know. I don't do it consciously. You don't consciously try to seduce the people you work with. It's always going to be a love affair with your actors. If you're not in love with him, it's not going to pan out. You literally have to fall in love and they with you, and they with you, and then you can do. Your actors fall in love with you. I try to make them, you do, don't you? I bet you they do, because it's so intimate. It's such a private and such a and it requires such honesty. Yeh. I never met Stephen Daldry before, and in that spirit of honesty, I figured this was my chance, even as his publicist was looking at her watch and pulling him away. Well, one day, I'd love to talk to you about a play. Should we do one? I'd love to do play, but I don't I don't know if you're gonna have time you're not gonna be time to do a play with me. Good God, No, come, we're gonna do one of the public I'm sure they'll love it. Let's see, uh the hours the reader, extremely close with Tom Hanks and sound a book, and you're gonna stop all that to go to a play with me? I don't think so. I think I can hear your publicist really screaming now she's calling your agent right now. Stephen Daldry's new film, Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close, opens on Christmas. Thank you for coming. I'm very happy to spend the time. Thank you. This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing to the the fun joining