This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing from My Heart Radio. Many people have an appetite for films and television shows about organized crime, whether it be The Godfather, The Sopranos, Goodfellas, or Scarface. The public's fascination with the mafia never ends. My guest today, however, is not a fictionalized character on screen. He's not Tony Soprano or Don Corleone, but a real life mafioso who, by his own admission, committed countless atrocities. Sammy the Boll Gravano had a long and notorious career in La Cosa Nostra, the Brooklyn based Sicilian crime family, where he served as underboss to the infamous John Gotti. Yet the man who once upheld the mafia code of silence or omerta, turned state's evidence against his own, sending Gotti and many others to prison. And now Gravano is talking and talking and talking on several social media platforms. I recently found that he has a podcast entitled Our Thing, detailing the exploits of his career. In its five seasons, Our Thing tells stories from Gravano's early days as a teenage gangster to how he methodically plans a killing. The stories are both disturbing and captivating. During my conversation with him, I had to remind myself that Gravano is the real thing. But first a conversation with the man who convinced Gravano to record the podcast. Director, producer, cinematographer and editor James Carroll has worked on hit reality shows like Undercover Boss and gritty documentaries about police corruption and a serial killer. He once was embedded with drug lords in the Dominican Republic while filming a documentary. Despite Carol's credentials working with dangerous subjects, sitting in a studio alongside a known assassin is still a perilous challenge. I wanted to know how he first came to work with Sammy the Boll Gravano. So I'm wrapped at w M ME and one day I get a call and there's this production company that has secured Sammy the Bull and they were like, we want you to meet Sammy at our boardroom in Beverly Hills at w M And I said great. Now, just so you know, I had no I mean, I knew who Sammy the Bull was and my mom is Italian. My grandfather was you know, Italian, but you know, I'm half Italian. I knew what Sammy was, but I never really knew who he was. So I go into the meeting, and I do this with everyone that I meet. I don't want to know anything about you. I really don't read about you. I don't want to research you. I don't want to know really anything about you, because what I want to do is when I meet you, I want to experience that, just you and me. So I go in there and there's you know, agents and the production companies in there, and he's sitting right across from me, and I'm a big guy. I'm like six too, and you know, I shake his hand and we sit down and uh, he looks at me and he's like and I can tell he's you know, I've been around killers. At this point, I did the intensity I'm gravitated to and I'm comfortable with. And he says, tell me about yourself. So I start telling him, you know, about myself. He does to you what you normally do to other people, but go ahead exactly. So I'm in the hot seat and I play along, and I mentioned that my mom's Italian. And at the end he's like, is your dad Italian? And I said no, and he's like, well, then you're not fucking Italian, are you? And I look at him and I said, I never said I was fucking Italian? Did I? Sammy? And at that moment, I think there was this connection where we instantly bonded. At that sit down, he was testing you, he was and and he knew that what I know I know, and what I don't know I don't know. And I'm totally comfortable with that, you know, And that freaks people out sometimes, but like that, that's just me. And we got up from that meeting. We walked around, we walked around Beverly, you know, we just hit it off. And that was eighteen It was a long time ago. The concept of the meeting going in was he wanted to do a podcast or he didn't know he wanted to do a documentary. What did he want? So the production company was trying to sell his story as a documentary for television and they wanted me to be a director on it. I you know, I was interested. They wanted me, you know whatever. Now it gets to the point where the production company sends me over to Arizona alone to hang out with him. Right, I go over, actually drive over because I was like, you know, I don't really want to be there. I want to have my own card. And I show up to his house. I walked right in. I sit down in his family room, and for the next three days I have got you know, I've got a notebook behind me somewhere I'm just writing story. No, I want to experience it. I want to feel it. I want to put it up in my head and write it out. So I'm like, you know, he tells me a tremendous amount, which by the way, again did not research, did not read, did not know a lot about the moth uh, you know, just knew the headlines, whatever. But I wanted to experience what it was like for him. So I'm writing all this. I'm like starring all this, and I'm like, this is unbelievable. Like I'm sitting next to a guy who was at the table pretty much every single table, and I love that. I love anyone who was there. I gravitate to people like that. I gravitate to characters like that. So I'm all in on this guy, and he reminds me of my grandfather, and we develop a friendship. Really, all of this happens throughout a year. It's a documentary. No, it's not a documentary. We're not gonna buy it. Oh, it's a podcast. Okay, well it's it's a podcast here. Okay, it's a podcast over there, you know what is it? And then covid hits and so finally it ends up with Sammy calling me not connected to anyone at this point, solo because they couldn't sell and nothing happened, and he's like, hey, do you want to do a podcast with me? And I said, sure, like I'd love that. You know, I have no problem with that. Why do you think he wanted to do that? Other than beyond money? There are two things that are in play here. One, he's labeled something. He has been labeled something since and you know, I've met enough people and heard enough stories at this point in my life and career that when I meet him, I know the label, right. The label is a rat or a rat, you know, And I start to kind of dig and try to understand this individual who you just asked the question that I asked at the very beginning when I sat down with them. You know how could you do this? And it took me a year to realize and figure out why the relationship that he had with Cosa Nostra and which on turned in when they were locked up, when they were extracted from their club, the Raven Night and taken to jail and stuck in this prison for one year, tape started to come out and GODDI the relationship really really took a turn for the worst, and you know, Sammy was hurt by that, and all of a sudden the tapes come out. God, he is on the tapes. There's a lot of stuff that's happening behind the scenes with you know, their relationship within prison. And then he says in the podcast, I believe in episode one, and you know we're going into season five now, so I believe it was repeated in late in season four. But he said, if it if it comes down to this, if this is what Cosa Nostra is, and he's all, he lived such a life in it. If this is what it comes down to, the backstabbing, the line, the cheating, the craziness of John Gotti, well then Funcket, I don't want to be a part of this life anymore. What was it that would appeal to you about the audio only project. I started in radio, so yeah, I think that that's not really out there. But when I was thirteen, I was obsessed with with radio for some reason. This was in the mid nineties, so you know, before the cell phone, social the internet, and I remember telling my parents. I was like, you know, I really want to work at a radio station. And they were like, there's absolutely no way you're gonna work at a radio station, Like, you know, you're a kid. That doesn't happen until later. And I really stalked this one night show DJ, you know, I just called him and called him and called him, you know, in a in a way that was like weird but also endearing because I was, you know, a kid. And I finally got my way into the station, like I was like, let me just sit in with you one day. So I was sitting there watching him do the whole night show thing, and I was like, this is my life, like I love this, and and I really didn't want to be on the radio. I wanted to do everything behind the scenes. I was like interested in in programming music, I was interested in how it all worked. And I got a summer internship when I was fifteen. So a couple of years later, and I remember the day that my summer internship was over. I went to the g MS office. I like literally just barged right in and I said, I can't leave here, Like there's no way that I can leave here. You have me dust something like, I don't pay me. I have to like be here. I have to be a part of this. Where were you living then, I was. I grew up in St. Petersburg, Florida. I was born and raised in St. Pete, Florida's so this was, you know, the mid nineties. This was you know, a hot a C station. So we were like playing Phil Collins and Steve Winwood and all of that stuff. And he was like great. And what ended up happening was I I started to really go there Monday through Friday and really work there. And I was homeschooled through high school, so it kind of helped out with the you know, the scheduling. And I was fascinated by what happened when they turned off the microphone. So I picked up a video camera, not knowing anything about I mean just nothing, like I was like, let me just get a video camera. Let me just start filming these personalities because I was obsessed with characters and their stories. And what happened when they turned off the mic was like crazy, Well, they were just different, you know, very much robotic on you know, a script was in front of you, and they were like this is the weather, and blah blah blah. You know how they are. And when they turned off the microphone, they became authentic. And I craved authenticity, like I wanted that more than anything. So I pitched a radio station down there an idea. I was like, listen, I got a camera. I don't know anything, but let me go in there and let me start filming you guys. And what I did was I and this was now, this was early two thousands, so this was before YouTube, This was before you know, a lot of the stuff. And I would film hours and hours and hours of these radio personalities off the air. I would go home with them. I would I would go to events with them and really never really regretting taking that kid's phone call. We're taking a shower and you're like, what are you doing, Hey, what are you doing in there? Let me get in there, let me get that shot. So I started cutting it together. We put together a monthly video that was like seven to ten minutes long, and we uploaded it every month on the website and it became like, you know, it was written up in Billboard, it was in the New York Times, and that's what landed me out in Los Angeles. That's what kind of propelled me out here. And when I landed out here, they were like, what do you want to do this production company? And I was like, oh, I'm a director, you know, and they were like what, You're not a director And I'm like I'm not and they're like, no, you're You've got to like start as a p A. Yeah, you're Jimmy Olsen so Superman. So they I did not go into production. Weirdly enough, I was like, well, I don't want to be a p A. Like what else do you have? And they were like, well, you can digitize tapes at night. So I was like, okay, that sounds good. So I worked overnights digitizing tapes for three months and I literally was like, this is the worst decision I've ever made, This is this is I don't know what I'm doing. And I went to the owner and walked right in again and I sat in front of him and I was like, listen, I can't do this. You gotta give me something creative or else I gotta leave. And they were like, well you got cut a sizzle and I was like, well, what's that? You know? And I cut a sizzle That turned into a pilot, which turned into two series of television on On A and E. And that's kind of what got my start as an editor first. So that was a show called Obsessed, which is all about O c D. And what we did was we followed the cognitive behavioral therapy of an individual throughout the course of like sixteen weeks. And again it was you know, authentic, and I really enjoyed that. I I loved dealing with real people. I'm so happy and fortunate that I got to do that instead of some reality show, which was not what I was interested in In the beginning of your career, is out of part of it? You enlisting people to talk? Is that a skill you developed? Oh? I think so, I think there's a lot that you know, remember, there's a lot going on behind the scenes when when I do these projects, there's a lot happening as you know, there's a lot of development happening. There's a lot of relationship building. There's a lot of projects that are started that are never completed because they're not financed. So I'm being put into situations where the production companies will say, hey, go take a camera and go out there and film this guy. And I'm like, well, who is he? And he's like, he's a convicted killer. And I drive out by myself, and you know that. There was this one time where I was in the middle of California and it was a slaughterhouse. Literally, they were killing cows. And there's this you know, massive dude, and he's sitting in this shack and I go in and there's a guy on the on the sofa and I'm sure these guys are armed, right, but I've got a camera, you know, and and they and everybody comes down. Well, they want me there because for some reason, these guys they love when I'm there. And I listened to them because it's more than just me with the care, it's I actually am interested and I and I care about your story in a very human way. I'm not I'm not trying to get in there and get all the crazy stuff. I'm actually trying to figure you out tell me your story, and I care and they see that, you know, they realize that. And I go in there and no one's there with me. I really roll a lot by myself. So I set out the came I set up the mic, and this dude sitting in you know, a plastic chair in the middle of this abandoned shot, and I start asking him questions and I'm like, so, what's going on? Man, I'm like, well, where are we? First of all? You know, and this is by design. Halfway through the interview, you know, they start actually killing and you hear the screams of the cattle. Yeah, and you and and the intimidation sets in and you're like, okay, this is with intention, and this is an intimidation. In that moment, I'm like, okay, I got a little baby at home, you know, I have a wife, and I'm here all alone. And and you just commit to it, and you and you try not to show any fear because at the end of the day, like I said, I'm here to listen to your story. Our Thing creator and producer James Carroll. If you love conversations with creative minds, be sure to check out my episode with Radio and podcast producer Ira Glass. I mean, this show reflects my taste, but also I have to say the taste of my coworkers, you know, like it's not just mine at this point, like it's something that we all share and I happen to be the front man, and in that way, it's different than than it was from the beginning, Like I am the frontman for this thing that we make together, like somebody who's in a band that's been playing for a long time. Here more of my conversation with Ira Glass that Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, James Carroll shares the way the Our Thing podcast is a form of therapy for Gravano, and later in the program my talk with Sammy Gravano about what it was like working with the Gambino crime family boss John Gotti. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. James Carroll has worked with Sammy the Bull Gravano for five seasons on the Our Thing podcast. I wanted to know in all of their time working together, if Gravano had expressed any signs of remorse. I've asked that question and we've talked about that privately. What did he say. I don't think he has remorse. It's very much like the question I asked him when the first time. This was the first time I asked him and the only time I asked him. You know, he was telling me about a gunfight that he was in, and I was like, were you scared? And he looks at me and he's like, that's a really dumb question. And to you and I you know that that's a serious question. That's a you know, I'm scared because of whatever? And he said, you got to realize I've done this my entire life. That's scared. It would be like you, you know, going into your car and driving, are you scared when you drive? Right? So to ask that question to him, you know, are you remorseful or do you look back? I I think he was extremely calculated. I think he made those decisions. I don't believe he makes emotional decisions. Al I just was wondering if, because there's something about him, do you think you function for people like this? And this is a maybe a tired question as somewhat of a therapist. Are these sessions therapy for him? Oh? I think so? You know, he's he's emoded in front of me, you know, on camera. And again for some reason, I've been gifted an ability to be around individuals and for them to be extremely comfortable. So it's very much a perfect union when when that happens. His love for Cosa Nostra is the real deal love like this dude loved Cosa Nostra when it worked, when it worked, all the way to the end. I think there was a lot going on in like the late eighties and John Gotti was very, very difficult as a boss, and he really turned the mafia into something that they were not used to. But the old and this is what I love about these stories, the old days, the old the original like early days of Sammy the Bull in the sixties and early seventies where he was around the gangsters of the forties and fifties that were like that was their heyday. Those are incredible stories and the relationships, the very thing you were there for and that you did when that was taken away, What was the point in that was the protection of the group. With us, we take care of each other. We're safe. No one's ever gonna hurt you. It's like NATO. Anybody that attacks you attacks us. Anybody that your enemy is our enemy. We have your back and in this life with us, we're going to take care of you. Don't you worry. No one's gonna funk with you. Where your family blah blah blah blah. And the minute that went away, the minute you couldn't rely on that, what's the point? What's the point? You know? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Is he still in any danger? I don't think so. No. I mean listen, I drive, you know, he drives me around. So you're gonna love this story. So it's one of the first times I'm over there. He drives, you know, a very four door, small compact car. Okay, this isn't a Lincoln Mercedes or so we hop in and he's like, you're hungry, and I'm like, yeah, I'm hungry. He's like, we're gonna go to p F Chains. So we drive and you know, Arizona Phoenix area, there's you know, obviously a lot of road, you know, the lanes, and real quickly I understand what's going on. You know, this is a man who usually was driven around, has spent a tremendous amount of time in isolation, and you know, he was about a year and a half out at that point when I when I first met him, and you know, we're a little bit all over the place. We go to p F. Chang's. We sit down. He starts telling me about you know, hits and and everything, and I'm like looking over and there's this, you know, poor woman who's trying to eat her spicy chicken and she's hearing this crazy story and she, you know, she can't believe it, and I can't believe that I'm sitting here with Sammy the Bull who has the glasses on and whatever. So we get back in the car and he rolls down the window and he lights a cigarette and we drive away and we stop at this stop sign and there's this bicyclist coming up. And I see the bicyclist and I'm like, oh god, you know, here we go, right And this is early on in my relationship, so I don't really have the back and forth that I would have with him now. So he starts to go, and then the bicyclist, oh, you know, and he slams on his brakes and the bicyclist turns around, and I mean, the guy had no clue who he was dealing with, and it's like, you know, fuck you man, you know whatever, whatever, and Sammy's like, fuck me, fuck it out, you know, and and really just starts to scream at him, and I'm like, holy shit, like fuck man, I'm gonna be involved, and I don't know what's gonna happen out and meet him. Yeah, he's gonna he's gonna run over him. I don't know what's happening. So the guy drives away and he won't let it go, right. He's talking about it that night, he's talking about it the next day, and to this day, we still talk about the guy in the bicyclist. My last question for you is there's more square mileage here for you to explore with him you're doing in another season or you kind of is it winding down in terms of what he has to offer with me? I think it's it's winding down. I'm still a part of it. I still help him. Really, no one else touched the project except Sammy and myself. It's very rare that this happens. And you know this, It's like usually there's producers weighing in and whoever is the money person and like, but it was just really just Sammy and I would send the cuts to Sammy, and Sammy is extremely smart when it comes to like storytelling, when it comes to what's good and what's not. He has taste, which I believe that you can't be taught, you have to be born with. So I believe that now there's new things that he's going to be doing, and I think it's exciting for him, and I'm I'm excited for him, but I think for for me, I ran, you know, the mileage, I got the information. I'm very happy with how the podcast turned out. What have you learned? What you learn from him? You know, I love to romanticize about things. I love that. You know. I sit there and I think about things and I think, oh, this is the type of person he is, or this is that this is what I want to do with him, you know, one of the knights of the round Table exactly. You know. I I just I just romanticize about it, and I think because I'm putting it through my filter, which is like I'm a certain way, and I'm I'm very you know, I love emotion and I love depth and I love authenticity. And when I first started the project, I was like, oh, I'm gonna get in there and I'm gonna get what's there, but I found out that there's nothing there, and that's okay. That's the type of person he is, and people are that way. There are people out there that are that way. He's that type of creature he is, And you know, at the end of the day, I have spent what four or five years with him. Now we we we talk on the phone. You know, he calls me up, We have personal conversations. I know his family, he knows my family, so you know, there's that. But at the end of the day, he is that person and that's it. Period. Man, this podcast, we couldn't stop listening. We couldn't believe it. So thank you so much for taking the time to do this. Thank you, Alex, Thank you very much. Our Thing creator James Carroll. Sammy Gravano was convicted for his participation in nineteen murders, including his role in the hit on the then head of the Gambino crime family, Paul Castellano. Gravano worked as underboss to John Gotti before serving time alongside Gotti in prison until he cut a plea deal. He testified as a government witness against Gotti and thirty other mobsters. Gravano was released early and entered the witness protection program, which he left after less than a year. It seems the pull of a life of crime was inescapable, as Gravano returned to prison in two thousand for running an ecstasy drug ring. He was released in two thousand seventeen and started telling his story on the Hour Thing podcast just a few years later. Gravano grew up in benson Hurst, Brooklyn, born to Sicilian immigrants. Since he was still a teenager when he entered the life, I was curious to learn about his relationship with his parents and what they knew about his activities. I was in my thirties. I was already made guy. They never knew that. But they were hard working people. They worked ten twelve hours a day. My mother was a seamstress. My father was a painter, and then they opened up a small little dress factory and he went and worked with huh And they worked hard their whole life. They didn't have a lot of money, but whatever they had, it was always shared with the family at dinner or this and that of the other. Thing. They bought a small little house in Lake Ronkonkoma in Long Island, and uh, it was always old, the uncles and cousins and everybody there back when that was the Boon Ducks. But that was definitely a boon right out there. Then. Yeah, now it's probably all crowded, but yeah, yeah, So they were like that. They were great, legitimate people. I mean, but I was always in trouble. I was always the black sheep. But by the time I went into the military, I was nineteen. I got drafted during the Vietnam War. They had retired and moved to Long Island. Then they moved back into Staton Island. They passed away and uh, living against that island. But I wish I could have spent a lot of more time with my father going just simple things, going to a baseball game or something like that. Will go fishing. He was originally in Italy, was a fisherman, so going fishing with him was you know, like a big day. And I really didn't give them any money. I didn't have anything while they were you know, working until they got very old. Then I took care of them as best as I could, but they didn't need it. They had their retirement money, very small appetite to do anything. They were up in age. They were sickly, but I was always there to take care of them, connections with doctors, whatever I could possibly do. They never asked me where I got money or did anything, because I really when they were alive, I didn't have big money. Big money started flowing, you know, throwing their real old age sick and passed away. I was in three mafia wars, and I planned and plotted in two of them. I started off in the Colombo family. There was two parts to it, the Profaci and the Gallows. Everybody went to prison and stopped when crazy Joe Gallo came out. The second part started. I was already with the Colombo people. I did already work, meaning Amarda. I was eventually transferred over to the Gambino family, and in the Gambino family, when Angelo Bruno was killed in Philadelphia, there was a war broke out. I listened to the story on the podcast. Yeah the guy you took out to the golf club, yess Johnny Keys, So they couldn't five families and the Philadelphia family couldn't kill him, and I wound up getting the hit and I wound up killing them. It was a commission hit. It's it's at the highest level. And then I controlled the whole Castiliano hit. I did the planning and the plotting, and I was on the hit. John got he was in the car next to me. He was my driver. I had the Walkee talky and I controlled eleven people who are on the hit. Now, Johnny Keys in the podcast, you tell that story. He was old school and he was. He was like teaching you in the car to do the hit not get caught. You felt this admiration for him, and you thought he was this great old school guy. But at the same time, he did the hit without the approval of the commission. Correct, you were ordered to kill him because he broke the rules. Correct, Well, he didn't actually do to hit, I mean on Angelo Bruno. That that was all bullshit. He was actually Angelo Bruno's cousin. He was fighting the other side. I mean we really it was their problem, their thing. And you know, like you said, he was, you know, telling me how to do the hit on himself. And I came to learn now that I'm writing, is that we were like to Samurai's. We were both hit guys. He was a lot better, older, smarter, wiser than me, and we met on the battlefield. And what happened is when he was in that vent, he knew he lost. He knew I did something that the whole six families couldn't do. And he had a respect for me, and uh, he actually was educating me and teaching me Goes in Austria, knowing he was gonna die. But if you know about samurais when they lose, they want to die, but they want to die in an honorable way. Whether they push shoes off, yes, Well with him it was his shoes off. He was sending a message to his wife. Who would do that at seventy years old. I mean, he blew me away with things he wanted. But I understood it later on when it was explained I became Goes in Austria mostly because of him in a way that I wasn't before. Sort of door to my life closed on that head. You went to prison twice or three times. I went lengthy times. I went a bunch of times, but I went in nineteen ninety I got a five year bit the thing with John Gotti and I cooperated. The second time I went to prison, I got a twenty year bit. I did almost eighteen years straight so you do eighteen years straight and you'd already testified. Yeah, you've already left Witness protect and correct. Yeah. I was only in the Witness Protection fate months. Why did you want to get out of Witness Protection? Well, I wanted no part of it. I had money when I got out of prison. I wanted no part of the Witness Protection program. You had to change your name and do things and live by certain rules. I did my time. I didn't need their help, I didn't need their money, but they wanted me bed. They said, Sammy, you got nineteen murders. You got said, it's to five years. The government did the right thing with you. You're gonna make them look like horseshit if you don't come in, give them some more time, volunteer for this program. They could pound their chest a little bit. I felt that they did treat me right. And I did a five year sentence. It should have did a hell of a lot more than that. So I agreed to do one year and one year only, and that's what I did, and I stayed in the program. Some woman recognized me. They wanted me to start over. I wouldn't do it. So in eight months, I said I promised you one year. I'm not starting over, and they said you have to. I said, what, I'm not going to and they said, well, then you'd have to sign out. And I said that I'm gonna sign out. I promise you I'm in eight months. I promise you a year. Four more months I'll give you, and if you don't accept that, then I quit. I'm out, And I quit. I was out, and I went to Arizona where my family was. And you weren't afraid. No, you're out of witness protection. Your view to somebody that turned on John. So when you go to prison for the ecstasy charges, is that probably one of the most nerve wracking times of your life because I would imagine were you afraid they were gonna get you when you were in prison? I thought they would. I mean, I'm coming in with a lot of baggage. I had a twenty year sentence. That's where all these tattoos came from. What I did is I tattooed up and I said, as soon as somebody fox with me, I'm gonna kill him in prison. I thought I'd never get out of prison and I would probably dye in prison. So I said, I got nothing to lose, and that's what I'm gonna do. I tattooed up. I put that in my prison hat on and I said, the first person who foxed with me, I'm gonna kill. And that's gonna push people away thinking about coming over to me or fucking with me. But it really never happened. You're doing this work, and the whole time you're doing this work, there's a whole layer of society that's out to get you. Was there a part of you that you understood that you didn't begrudge them that they had a job to do. Did you kind of recognize that and say, hey, these guys, you know, we're breaking the law and they gotta do what they gotta do. Or did you think all of them were the enemy? No? No, Yeah, listen, I I dealt with a lot of agents on a constant basis. I got to know their names and who they were. I saw them every day watching and they were legit in other ways. They had a job and I didn't we you know, to catch us. We had a job is to get away. And uh, as long as they told the truth, I don't begrudged them. It's people who lied about people made up lines and did all kinds of bullshit that I hated them, But after I cooperated, I got to know them. I actually lived with them for years. I was in Quantico Military Base for months and months and months. I lived with them every day in a week, and I got to know a lot of them. I got to trust, like Frankie, potentially, Yes, now beyond the ones that were handling you, if you will, when you're testified and so forth, during your career, when you're out and you're younger, when you're a made guy and there's a lot of money on the line, I would assume you wanted the cops to cooperate with you, or there were times when it would be helpful with the cops cooperated with you, and you didn't want to get that wrong, meaning you didn't want to go after a guy and make a play on a cop or somebody, and you didn't know if he was going to cooperate with you, meaning was there a towel, Was there a towel? You would see they would tell you that the cop was ready to come over, and he was dirty, and he would keep in cooperate with you. Yeah, I mean, it became obvious you kind of distinguished the difference. Like this guy Frank and Maddie. They used to call him the twins. You saw one, you saw the other. I saw them all the time. One time, Christmas time, I came to my office and my secretary was. There was snow and it was cold, and she said that Frank and Maddie are out there watching. She even knew their name. We knew their names and everything. So I said, how long were the out there? She said quite a while. So I got a box, cardboard box. I got some coffee, I got cookies, all kinds of Cannoli's everything, and I put a box full of stuff. I went out. I walked to the car in the snow, knocked on the window, as said, bro, you guys don't ever go home. I said, I mean, this is our job. I said, here's a box of cookies and coffee and stuff like that. So they said, no, we can't take that. I said, listen, it's not a bribe. It's cookies. Brolet's say. I know you're not gonna do nothing, so take the fucking cookies. They took the cookies, and uh, when I flipped, those are the guys. I actually flipped with now John Gotti. Did you think he was a good boss? Ever, No, he wasn't a good boss. He's not an actor. We're not actors with gangsters. It's a secret society and a brotherhood. Let me give you a little Carlo Gambino, when he came in the room in a restaurant, all you did was look all right, I and give a slight nod of the head. And that's your saying hello. You don't go give him a bottle of champagne. You don't wave hey, Carlo, we don't do that. So what he did as he exposed all of goes in Austria. When I cooperated, I was living with the government. The government loved him. What he did was gave up the home mouth here on a silver platter on his ego. He was a narcissist who put on this show. He bought into the whole dapper Don thing without a doubt. If he knew what reporter was gonna say, call him to Dappadon, the reporter could have called him up and say listen, I'm gonna do an article. I'm gonna call you the Dappadon. He would have got a hundred thousand who did you think was good? Who's someone else in organized crime that he really admired, Frankie the Chico. He was like a big brother to me. And uh. When John and his crew were in trouble for Dylan drugs, they were gonna get taken out. They came to me and Frankie, to Chico and a guy named Joe Piney a few people for help to be in this war without us. He he doesn't he doesn't live. When I talked to Frankie Chico about it, I didn't want to be in that wall, and I told Frankie, well, if we're gonna be in it, I want you to be the boss. He said, I could be his under boss. He can't be mine. He's got an ego like the Empire staple and we'll have nothing but trouble. Let him will take over, Let him be the boss, will be the power behind the throne. If he doesn't act right, I give him my word, will kill him. I'll be the boss. You'll be my under boss. I said, yes. Now, I'm gonna give you an example of Frankie Chico what I think of him. John had a powerful crew, no question. I had a powerful crew, no question. If you put out two crews together, we were in a pimpo on Frankie Chico's ass. That was the real power. His whole family, women in the family. I think, if you killed somebody in front of Bell, help you move the body. So this this was the real deal. As father, his uncle's were made, everybody's whole family and people loved him. So this was the real power. He's the guy who got blown up four months after the hit. Did you ever get the impression that John's son, that John Jr. Was gonna try to do something to you? So he was out there trying to find you. While John was alive, I knew he would send a team down again. I'm a professional hit guy of mega proportions, and I waited for that team. I was armed every single day. I lived in an area in a spot that I always had the advantage. I always knew exactly what I was doing, where I was gonna sit, and I was always armed. When I got pinched for the ecstasy in my house, I had four guns hidden, all of them loaded, one shotgun and three pistols and at three fifty seven magnum by my side. While I slept, I waited for them to come. I knew John would send them. They did. They found me. They sat on me for months and months and months, and they always felt like they would never be in the proper position. And one guy, Huck, who was in my crew made guy said I'll guarantee you Sammy's gonna have a gun. I guarantee you he won't run, and I'll guarantee you he's gonna try and kill us. And he was a thousand percent right. But before they had a chance to make the move, they sat on me for months, and we're afraid to make the move. I got pinched for ecstasy and I went to prison and that was over. So I didn't underestimate that John would send somebody. He talked to his brother Pete, who became the boss, a complete fucking moron, and he gave Huck and a few guys that hit and he botched the whole thing. He didn't send the right guys, Sammy the Bull Gravano. If you're enjoying this conversation, don't keep it to yourself, Tell a friend and follow here's the thing on the I Heart radio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Sammy the bull shares why he was the hitman the bosses relied on. I'm Alec Baldwin, and this is here's the thing. Much of the Mafia on screen involves clandestine meetings over linguini and red wine. I wanted to know if, just like Tony Soprano, Sammy frequented an Italian restaurant that felt like home. Well in Manhattan, Mulberry Street. I believe it's and Lows. That was great. It was right on Mulberry Street. It was a great restaurant, great food, great service. And me I stayed mostly in Brooklyn, Benson Earth. I stayed in restaurants in places that really weren't all that fancy, but I went to them before I was anything, and I kind of stayed there even though my rank or position, whatever you wanna call it, increased. But you'd like to eat, Oh, I love to eat. You know what Italian is? Everything is breaking bread, we talk, we eat, I mean in my house with my father, and you'd be at the table for an hour and a half. Not only would you eat the first meal deandi boss the past that it is that that when you were done, you're drinking a little wine you're breaking the walnuts or you know, with the and you're eating nuts fruit stuff like that, and you conversed. It was a tie family tie, united the family and keeping it together, you know, and keeping it close. The kids would go off and run off and go play in the backyard. So it was not only a mafia thing. It was an Italian thing basically. It was part of our roots. On a tougher subject. The first time you killed somebody and every time thereafter, was it always the same feeling or was there a time when you know, because a lot of it was that someone's direction. They were being ordered to do this. You were given a hit, you were given a job. Did you have to medicate yourself to get yourself in that state to do that job? Were you always in the natural state? Did you have to take a pill and take a couple of shots before you could do that? First of all, a hit to me was always in order. I never did a hit, what really without an order that you improvised, So it always came from the top. You're not allowed to do it without you know, permission anyway. But after the first hit and I was into it, I became a very good hit guy. One of the reasons is is that I was able to think. I was a thinker. I plan and plot head, I focus it. I'm gonna use the word you. I'm not talking about you, but I would focus in on you, on everything you did, every place you went, and I would disregard my family, my friends, my business, money, nothing meant nothing to me other than you and where I was going to kill you. I became very, very efficient at it, and that's how I was used by bosses so many different times, because they knew that if I got your contract, you were finished. I never took drugs. The only thing I did as a kid when I smoked pot, But I never really took drugs. I never really drank. I didn't need any of that, and I thought that would be the worst thing you could do, because that'll suck up how you think, and that's when you're gonna make a mistake. The podcast with Jim Carroll, whose idea was that, you know when I when I got out of prison, I was going to write a second book. James Carroll came to me he was gonna do a documentary about me, and he had turned around and said, oh wow, I'd love to work with you with uh this podcast. So I said, all right, and I said, how you to How would you think it will? He says, I heard you know you talk, if you could talk like that and on the podcast, he said, you'll get twenty five million hits. I started laughing. I had just got out of prison, not till long ago. I said, I know I could get ten people for sure, my ex wife, my son, my daughter. I am not gonna get twenty five million people. I think as of today we got eighty five million views. So, uh, he was right. You know, you're you're you're you're a very complicated guy. You know what one minute you taking an omerta, an oath of silence. Now you got eight five million people listening to you on a podcast. You know what I mean? If Sammy Gravano then could see Sammy Gravano now you'll be sitting there going what the fuck is this? Andson? Thank you very much? I thank your still my Thanks to Sammy Gravano and James Carroll. This episode was recorded at c DM Studios in New York City. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zack McNeice, and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing. Is brought to you by my Heart Radio. The name Chool