Sam Wasson Chronicles Chinatown and Hollywood Legends

Published Mar 9, 2021, 5:00 AM

From Blake Edwards and Paul Mazursky, to Audrey Hepburn and the history of Improv, Sam Wasson tackles distinctive creators and seminal moments in Hollywood history. Alec loved Sam Wasson’s latest, The Big Goodbye: Chinatown and the Last Years of Hollywood. In this fascinating conversation, Wasson tells the story of the four men behind the 1974 film, producer Robert Evans, screenwriter Robert Towne, director Roman Polanski, and the star Jack Nicholson. Chinatown marked the end of an era for Hollywood and a turning point in each of their lives. 

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This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest today is author Sam Wasson. Whether he's writing about directors such as Blake Edwards, Paul Mazurski, or the history of improv, a consistent theme running through Wasson's books is the perseverance and talent required to make art in Hollywood. His latest book, The Big Goodbye, is about the seminal film Chinatown. How much You're Worth? How much you want? I just want to know what you're worth? Over ten millions by yes? Why are you doing it? How much better can you eat? What can you buy that you can't already afford? The future? Mr Gitts the Future. This is the love theme from Chinatown by the film's composer Jerry Goldsmith. In The Big Goodbye, Wasson chronicles the friendships of the four men at the heart of the nineteen seventy four classic producer Robert Evans, screenwriter Robert Town, director Roman Polanski, and the movie star Jack Nicholson, and what was at stake for each one in making this definitive film. Sam Wasson grew up in Los Angeles and fell in love with the movies. Early on, I was a movie love. It was actually Bullets over Broadway. I went nuts. I thought, oh, film is not just dialogue and performance. It's visual component. It's a complete sensual experience. That Bullets was so beautiful and so funny. It knocked me out when I saw it. That was the end. It's the ultimate art form, combining all the other art forms. You finished film school, yeah, USC. First I went significantly. I went to Wesleyan for film School in Connecticut and studied with Janine Basinger, who's the Hollywood historian on the planet. Knows more about Hollywood than anyone ever has I think ever ever will have. And it's just obvious when you talk to her, and she really teaches a tour theory of Hollywood. So I got a deep, four year long survey of the greatest and there was no deconstruction. There's no you know, film theory. It's film as film. And that was my film education. And then I went to USC, which was kind of a bust for what for film production. I directed one film myself and I just I wouldn't say hate it, but I didn't care for at all, you know, being responsible for cajoling the work, especially actors. It's a lot of managing, isn't it. I mean it's it's as as a much managing as art. Whereas if you're acting, or if you're starring, or if you're writing, there's very little bullshit that you have to deal with. It's purer. I think when I was acting and mid that I directed a film, I remember that when you're when you make films and you're starring in films, you know, years ago for me, you could be in your trailer and they would knock on the door and say, well, the producer I would like to talk to you, or the head of the studio is here visiting, he'd like to talk to you, and I'd say tell him I'm asleep and just and you could hide in the trailer, as opposed to when you're directing. You can't do that. You can't. You have to. They come to work and they're like, let's let's talk about how you're over over schedule here. That's an amazing thing about directing is that you're you're really in reality. You're interfacing with reality all the time, and in other art forms you don't. You can be in your imagination but when you're making a movie, there's so much ship that you have to do. You're making a building from scratch. So you finished, you did four years at Wesleyan. Yeah, and then you wanted more film school. And then I and everyone was said, Oh, you want to make movies, you gotta go to film school. You gotta go to USC. And so I thought, oh, yeah, at USC. Of course, that's where you know, you go to Juilliard. If you want to do Lincoln Center, you go to USC. If you want to do you know, Man's Chinese. So Wesleyan was more film theory, and USC it was about film production. Yeah, it was film study. I mean it was filmed. It was watching movies and talking about filmmaking. But at what point do you stop and see yourself. I don't think I'm gonna make movies. Well I'm not totally convinced that I'm not going to. But at that moment, it was a combination of two things. I looked around and I saw that my fellow classmates were completely invested in the Hobbit thing, and I felt instantly lonely and realized that I was experiencing a microcosm of what it was gonna look like out in the real working world. And I thought, you know, maybe the Hollywood that I grew up in is no longer the Hollywood. That is the Hollywood that grew up outside. I dove and I was right. And then the book thing just happened. How it was actually Janine Basinger Wesley and said why don't you write a book? I never thought of it. And I picked Blake because I wanted to pick who I thought was the greatest writer director of comedy alive who had not been celebrated. Now Blake. My ex wife Kim Basinger did a man who loved women with Blake, And that's when I first met Julie. And you know, you're so right. I mean, he's so under are I think Victor Victoria is one of the ten funniest movies I've ever seen in my life ever. I love Victor Victoria. I loved ten. I love a movie he made that a lot of people probably don't know about, called What Did You Do in the War? Daddy, Dick Sean, Dick Sewn, and Dick Sewn. I'll just say this, Dick Shawn is a drag scene in the movie. I mean, if I don't know what else you need. But but Blake Blake. I I always thought that Blake was People look at sla up stick somehow, with the exception of Chaplin, who is revered as poetic because he is, everyone else looks at slapstick as this low form. You know, slapstick is dumb, it's for children, it's childish. And so I think Blake got a bum rap because of that, and I wanted to elevate him and say this is sophistic. Someone can fall off a fucking chair and it's still be nol coward and that's what Victor Victoria is. Okay, So then you do after Blake your next book Fifth Avenue five AM, So fifthven and five M is your next book. Why Missourski, what did he do to you that made you want to write a home Because to write a book, as you know, you spending a lot of time in your life with that person. Yeah, missours Ki, was just just love for the work, enthusiasm for the man who had met a couple of times. And actually it ties to Blake. As much as I loved the work, Blake left me with such a scar in my heart. Why why he personally was so sadistic to you. Yeah, sadistic to me. And he was that way to you as his as his boswell here, it was astonishing. I was young. I don't know. You could probably tell me how old I was. I don't remember. I was young. And he would cancel on me, and I'd be in the car on the way over and he would cancel on me with not giving any reason. And then he would call me up and he would say, you know, get in the car, come on over. And I would get in the car and he would cancel on me. It was a real dance of death. And I finally got in there a couple of times, but um, it was open hostility. It was like nothing. It was a real abusive codependent relationship. So Missurski is platformed off of Blake. How why because I we're getting into the therapy portion of the conversation. But of course I blame myself for the way I was, you know, and I guess I wanted to make sure I knew how to do this and that it wasn't going wrong because of me, And so I wanted to be with someone that I was comfortable with and obviously idolized, and those two things dovetailed perfectly, and Paul was nothing like Blake Take Oh no, Missour's Keys. You know, it turns out people are like their movies. Blake edwards movies are sadistic and we love them for it, and Paul's movies are loving and warm and we love him for it. But because comedy is finally about rage, to find a nurturing director of comedy and Nichols wouldn't be would qualify in this case is a rare thing. And so I'm interested in funny people, and funny people and good people don't always go together. So to find in Missourski funny and mensch to the core was a beautiful thing, and is what what his movies are about. Well interesting you mentioned Nichols because Nichols is a very good example. A lot of these big directors I worked with and had very small parts, you know, Stone, Marty, Woody, Nichols. I mean, I didn't have leading roles in these films. And when I worked and I did the movie Working Girl, one of the first films I did, and I worked with Mike, you could tell that Mike was someone who had come through a gauntlet, he had worked his way and I don't. I don't mean this as a criticism. He had come through a gauntlet where in the way that you move through the film business, and you have and Polanski reminds me of this as well in your book. Mike was someone who had in the way that you You'll take the good ideas wherever they come from. You'll take the good advice wherever it comes from. And you're going through the jungle, if you will. And eventually you realize that the person you can rely on, the person has that typically not always maybe, but who typically has the best ideas is yourself. And you grow to rely on yourself and you don't want anybody to talk you out of what you're keen. That's improvising. That's because Mike is an improviser. I mean, does that fit. Why did you write that book? Why did you write about improv Well? Two reasons. One, I do believe it is a great American art form. I do believe that. And the other reason, I wanted to meet Elane. I wanted to know Elane. I wanted to celebrate Elane because she created this. She's a national treasure. You're referring to Elaine May. Yes, she is, as you know, you know, tough to get a hold of. I wanted to do it, I didn't do it, and my heart is still not whole. There's still a dark Elaine part in the heart. It belongs to her. I just worship Elaine. I mean a new leaf yep. I love Elane, I love you. And talk about physical comedy, I mean that moment where she's taking off the or she putting on the dress or the nightgown. I can't remember what it is and she gets stuck in it. I mean a woman who could do that and be as spontaneously brilliant as she it is. A author Sam Wasson. If you're as fascinated with old Hollywood as i am, check out my conversation with the legendary Debbie Reynolds and her reflections on the Hollywood studio system. Most of us, Shirley McClain and Elizabeth they were at MGM and everything was done for us, you know, the makeup of hair, sent cars for us. We were very spoiled. We didn't kind of know what to do when they dropped everybody, like when television came in, and remember what year around there was the end of the studio system. Kind of died as you get into the fifties, it is slowly died a death. You know. It was like interesting to watch it was. I didn't realize it was the end, you know, I didn't know that it was that. Here more of my conversation with Debbie Reynolds at Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Wasson described vibes what motivated each of the four men behind Chinatown's success. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. In the movie Chinatown, Jack Nicholson plays private eyed Jake Gidtis, who becomes ensnared in a web of corruption, at the center of which is developer Noah Cross, played by John Houston. It was no Ah Across, Sam Wasson was thinking of when he watched the two thousand sixty election results come. In the moment Trump won, I turned to my friend Graham and I said, where, what's the story now? Where? What movie are we living in? And that was it combined with the fact that of course I want to I'm angry about what's happened to Hollywood, and so I'm always looking for ways to scream and to tell this story about the nightmare that is become of America, which was the story we were just beginning to live at that point four years ago, combined with its position in the decline of that second great wave of the New Hollywood, and the four personalities who are fascinating, you know, in and of themselves. But that's what I want to I want to I want to break that down, those four because for me, when I read what you said about Trump and now Ah Across, I thought, well, Noah Across to me was more even though he was a fictional character. He was more Robert Moses than Donald Trump. And I mean he actually accomplished things. He was diabolical, and he was very, very machiavellian, but he accomplished things as opposed to Trump was accomplished only genocide. That's right. When I read the book and I put everything through the prison of the book and the understanding the film through your lens, what I what I came away with, and you correct me here or help me, is there's four men that come together. Robert Evans at the head of Paramount Nicholson is the film star really ascending at this point in his career. Polanski does Rosemary's Baby, then his wife is killed. Right after that, he makes a movie right on the heels of his wife being murdered. And then Robert Town, the screenwriter, and all four of them come together, And I guess it's safe to say this is a bit of an obvious thing. Four guys come together, all of whom have an equivalent level of desperation for this movie to work. They all are obsessed with making this work. Is that? Because that correctly describe for me with the relationship between you spend a good amount of time in the book and the relationship between Town and Polanski. So the film of Chinatown, the shooting script, the scenes that were shot, and I'm assuming that eventually a script is compiled and is and is bound if you will, Then is the shooting script is that more Polanski than Town? Well, Town obviously generated it, and then Polanski for years he was generating it. And Town is a very slow writer and a very expansive writer. I mean he writes big and then struggles to cut down to structure. So when Polanski comes in in the last two or so weeks or a month or whatever it was, Polanski really structures it. So I guess the answer is yes. So the structure is Roman, no question about it. But the material is Town. Now Town who had his writing partner Edward Taylor, and Taylor was someone described that relationship. Taylor was someone who did a lot of work uncredited, I think nearly all of it on Was he ever credited? Did you mention that in the book? What did he get a credit anywhere? And not on a Town movie? He got a credit, a writing credit on a movie called w I Warshowski Kathleen Turner picture. Edward Taylor got credited for that. Um, but he never got a writing credit on a Robert Town movie. UM, never wanted one. Why do you think that is when you have a guy, here's four men who are fairly um, I'm not obsessed with success, They're obsessed with greatness, their legacy. I mean you could you could find tune all four men what they had something in common, but there was a little bit distinctive what Nicholson wanted Evan so Forth. But for Taylor to be in the rooms with these people and writing these seminal films, why do you think he didn't want any credit? What was it about? Well, there's stated reasons and then there's unstated reasons, and The stated reasons were, and this is Taylor either from his own writing or front or what he told to other people, were one, he didn't want to deal with the bullshit of show business. He just wanted to punch in, punch out right the scenes, do the creative work, and not have to deal with the haggling of the negotiations and and egos and despair and all that stuff that comes with having your name on something. There's a certain amount of freedom that you get to say, no one's going to know that I was here. So there was that. Then there was the long term friendship that he had with Town, going all the way back to their years at Pomona when they were in college. So he felt a kind of loyalty to Town, which manifested as subordinating himself to Towns, you know, quite obvious need to be a star. And then there were all these speculative secret reasons about secrets that they might have had on each other. Uh. Then there was of course Edwards alcoholism and Town really being a support to Taylor, you know, because Taylor got paid for this, and Taylor in his heart really did believe you know, these are Towns movies, which they were in so far as Town generated them, and I'm just helping Robert with his movie. He convinced himself of that that it really was more town. And also there are people like that who what they convinced and they have a certain kind of personality. I've known a couple of myself where their attitude is better the crumbs off your table than nothing at all. That's it. That's it. So there's deep pathological stuff that we can't even get into. But that's the type that you're describing. But the one thing that you see in this movie is the death of that studio executive like Evans. You mentioned a piece of very well known history, the advent of Jaws and what Jaws does to marketing and films and how the business will changes in the wake of that. But you tell it so well, I mean, you tell it really wonderful. You you make everybody really see the impact that once these guys knew there was big money in them, there are hills. Everything changes. What was it about Evans that he wanted to have great films that made money and one awards? He loved it, He loved it, He loved show business, he loved movies, he loved people. He loved talent. It's actually that simple. I asked him this question. I said, Evans, is it as simple as you bet on talent? Do you have an easy job? And he said, you goddamn right. That was and and and it's true. I mean, if you have the courage, that's the question. Do you have the courage to say, yes, I believe you are talented. Here's the check. Then you're a great studio executive because even if the movie fails, even if it is a steaming piece of ship humiliation to everyone on the planet, at least you go to bed thinking I picked a good guy. I picked the right people to do that. That's a pride that what executive can now go to sleep saying that you know the Evans Is and you mentioned Zani and people like that who are running with the studios. Back then, some of them were people who knew how to make movies, but they knew people who knew how to make movies, and they knew how to bring them together, and they seduce them into comming and to join them on this venture. Yes, I mean Goldman's maxim turns out to be right. I believe nobody does know anything. I believe nobody knows anything. Those people who end up being the most successful are the people who have the who are the strongest to adhere to their great taste. And those guys Zanick, all those great guys had exactly that. Now, Evans, of course you you you do a wonderful job in the book. This is a prism through which you learn a lot about the movie business and the history of the movie business. It's a great, great, great book. And you also learn what a seminal year of this is in nineteen for so many great movies made. And Evans is someone who knows that white hot period in the seventies, the studios are making Paint Your Wagon and Finnian's Rainbow and all that stuff is tanking, and then along comes and Robert Osborne said this to me when we co hosted TCM together. He said, you know, I just hate Easy Rider, because Easy Writers the movie that comes along and just changes everything. The movie becomes so real and so ugly and so and so nasty, and so they're they're like documentaries. Nicholson becomes a star, if you will, on the back of that movie in sixty nine. Let me get into the seventies, and what happens, well, you know, just like Hollywood being Hollywood, Easy Rider is a hit. So then they all fall over themselves trying to get the next one now, unlike today where they fall over themselves trying to get the next one. Back then making a movie was relatively inexpensive enough that they could understand the next one being well, let's try another little movie based on a you know, based on a couple of guys. You know, the modesty of the Easy Rider project could be replicated. And that is a recipe for creativity. And so that's what they did after that absolutely cynical undertaking insofar as Hollywood is doing what it's always done. But because the economics of the system are conducive to creativity and the people calling the shots are genuinely interested in art, it can flower Polanski's wife. He makes the movie Rosemary's Baby, which I can't say enough about that movie. And the more I watch that movie, that's one of the ones I've downloaded in my computer because of that remarkable balance he has. You have Ruth Gordon in this, like right up to her toes or right on the line of camp in that, and yet there's Sydney Blackmer playing her husband, who's his velvety, and the cast is Alicia Cook. You have the creepy and the sour, and the sweet and the weird and the pleasant, everything the harmony, and the same is true for this movie. The same is true. Polanski is a master of casting. Master. I'm so glad you brought definitely down to I mean, who is Bert Young in Chinatown? Talk about juicy? I mean, there's so it's an embarrassment of riches that we never get the movie is so fertile in talent that we never get down to the Burt Young of it all. Obscure Bert, Yeah, we do obscure Bert Young, Diane Lad how about that dead on the floor and just a perfect, perfect portrait of a nervous actress all the way through performing down to the very end when he pulls out the sag card, and that is an l that is also inside. That's a little gift to an Angelino to see that, Oh yes, she was an actress. Of course she was, and you play it back in your mind, and and the whole psychology of the actress just kind of harmonizes with what you've seen Fucking Polanski casting that movie. I mean, how do you do you can't tell. How do you teach the ability to cast? That has to be one of the things like like, yeah, you don't have you have to have you have to sense that that person can do even if you have to push them, even if they have to dig down, you know. You know. Gary Oldman became a star doing sidon Nancy. Uh. Gary Oldman became a star doing sid Nancy and won an oscar playing Churchill. Talk about that journey as an actor in terms of the disposition of the character. Now, Polanski, his wife is killed, he does Rosemary's Baby. It's it's released in sixty eight. His wife is killed in sixty nine. He comes and does this movie I guess in seventy three. It's released in seventy four. Correct, Yeah, And what Polanski is showing up now to shoot Chinatown? Which Polanski shows up Now he's changed, how from the horrors of what happened to his wife. He's been devastated, He's been devastated, and he's he left town. And it should be said, not just because his wife and child and friends were murdered by them, not just because of the emotional residue of the grief but because the town turned on him in a way, the town in the panic around figuring out who the killer was. We didn't know who the killer was. There was speculation that, well, maybe it's Polanski, his movie Are Enough. I learned that from you. I learned that from your book. And it's a tribute to his friends, Dick Silbert, Jack, Warren, Baty Evans, the people who were really his friends, who stuck by him and supported him in that. I mean the grief to compound on top of the grief, the paranoia of the town closing in on you, I can't even make a word to come out of that. Well, they were they put him back together again, so to speak, his friend, They put him back together. He's got he's got a good bunch of friends. And that's kind of also what this book is about, secretly for me, is a good bunch of friends, because that's what I dream of, That's what a good Hollywood should feel like. One thing that was just really assaulted me from the book was that idea that back then and it never crossed my mind. It never occurred to me that Polanski was someone who people he was a suspect and some people's mind and now the whole Now, the whole town, the whole community lived in terror, in the wake, lived in tear. And I should add to compound to make this even fucking worse. He didn't know who the killer was, so he's suspecting his friends. Maybe it is Warren, Yes, maybe it is Warren. He's trying to get sampled. What was he trying to get, like blood samples off of steering wheels in the carpeting of cars and all the ship. That's an amazing part of the book. I mean, it's enough for an opera right there. I mean people say it's a Greek tragedy, I mean Roman Polanski. That's to say nothing of what we all know is coming, but just that incident right there, unimaginable. Author Sam Wasson. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be sure to subscribe to Here's the Thing on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Wasson talks about the reception of the film's shocking ending and it's remarkable score. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's the Thing because Chinatown was Jack Nicholson's first real turn as a leading man. He paid attention to every last detail, down to his wardrobe, to inhabit Jake Giddies. I mean it was deep in him too, because Town wrote it for him. Town observed Nicholson. They were in Jeff Corey's acting class, and and improvised improvisation was heavy in that class. And so Jack is a great improviser. So Town really became a master of Jack, whatever that means, and so learned learned how to just hit it right to him. Sometimes I think the guy that can nail Chinatown and especially that ending and that in that last line, the guy that can all that ending you right with great detail and great insight into the shooting of that final scene and the car driving off in that long shot, and the actor that pulls the gun and shoots her, you know, the whole kind of existential on wi of the whole thing at the end, Uh, forget about it. Jacob's Chinatown. I thought to myself, that's Polanski. In the wake of his wife being butchered that way, Yes, like his mother's killed. His father says to him, you had you have it in there, Move it, move it. The prompt from the Father. But you just keep moving, just keep moving. And Polanski was certainly primed to nail because of all the horrors he'd been through. And it's hard to imagine a more horrific ending to a major Hollywood movie. It's hard to imagine. And when the film was screened for the executives, what was there you write about this? What was their response to the film? You know, you tried your best, Evans, you know, Sue Manger's was like, what are you? What were you Connie? What were you thinking? I can't do Sue, you can do it? You know, they're filing out in the director's guil um was it Freddie Fields who had a sort of shit eating grin on his Freddie Freddie and Evans were never sympathico. But then it got good reviews. Yeah, yeah, then it did well. It did Yeah, and I won a lot of awards. Yeah. Jack didn't win. Jack didn't win. Jack didn't win. J Who won that? You? Oh? Oh? Art Carney from from Missourski, from Missoursky, even Missoursky when I talked to Jack's oscar and hands it not so fast Jack hands it to Art Carney. Yeah, I think even Paul was a little embarrassed of that. Was it going in style? No, it was Harry, Uh huh. Let's see Chinatown. Let's see Wow. Okay, it sounds like an SETV sketch from the makers of Chinatown. From the Makers comes a story of a man in his cat. You know. One of the things that I love the part of the story because I'm obsessed with musical score. Describe how there was the path with the score for Chinatown. One composer who then what happens? His name was Philip Lambro, and um, he wrote, I don't have the language to even describe what music I mean. You can actually find the score on YouTube. And it was an atonal, edgy, expressionistic, weird, you know, not melodic, not what you think of his Hollywood, certainly not what you think of his forties glamour Hollywood. And it didn't work. And this was like in the final moments before you know, scoring comes in at the very end. And what happened was Evans called Goldsmith and said you got to save my life, and and Goldsmith said all right. And ten days later and and ten days sounds like a legend, you know, sounds like fable fiction stuff. I got ten days confirmed all over the place. It really was end day. I mean, if it wasn't ten, it was eleven days. You know, he turned around a masterpiece in no time. This is another reason why Evans is Evans. Only people like Evans can pick up the phone and get somebody like Goldsmith to write a score for one of the greatest movies in the world in eleven days or wherever the funk it is. And it also tells you that Evans was beloved on a personal level. Yes, you know, you could make those calls. You make those calls and someone says yes and turn and turns it around, and Evans supervised the score. You know. Music was so important to Evans, so important to Evans, even though he's fucked up on on Godfather by not you know, Nino Rota pushing back on Rits, okay, but Evans loves music because he's finally in his heart just a romantic and a softie. And also music is a major part of post production, and that's where Evans can come in and get his hands in there. Sometimes he gets his hands a little too much in there, as as as Copeland knows and suffered by but that's the shadow side of Evans, but music allows him to allow him to do that. Obviously, many people know this already that your book has been options and they're gonna make a movie out of it, and my dear friend Lauren Michaels is going to produce. And then in addition to uh Lauren as producer, Ben Affleck has been collared. If you will to do the directing. What is something you are hopeful about. I'm hopeful that they'll do right by Roman in what regard well, you know, the times that we're living in, you know, uh, may surely, I'm I'm surprised they even they even did it, you know that they that they thought that this would be the right climate to make a movie that stars a character Roman Polanski, and is a I should dare say because I wrote it a sympathetic portrait in the in the book balanced, I hope, but sympathetic. And we live in such extreme I don't know, we live in such an extreme yes or no cancel culture, canceled culture this or that there is no gray area and Roman is the definition of gray and every great character is every great character is. So I want to see, not not just them to do right by Roman because I know him and respect him, but also I want the movie to be as good as it could be. And my theory is that to write a character who lives in the gray, I wish that for every character in the movie that they're in the gray. And I wish that for every character in every movie. Author Sam Wasson on his book The Big Goodbye Chinatown and the Last Years of Hollywood. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Carrie donohue, and Zach McNeice. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Thanks for listening, kid,

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