This is Talia Schlanger and you're listening to Here's the Thing from I Heart Radio. Hello all Line with fits Garman fetching the jacket off these poses, such beautiful poses, mats and feel like picking up roses. That's the absolutely unmistakable voice of Rufus Waynewright. The song is Poses. It's the title track from his second album. You could say that musical craftsmanship was Waynewright's destiny. It's certainly in his DNA. He was born to Folk Royalty, son of singer songwriters Loud and Wayne Wright the third and Kate McGarrigle. His sister, Martha, is also a compelling musician. Rufus Waynewright was playing piano by the time he was six, and touring as a member of the McGarrigle sisters and family when he was only their team, so it's no surprise that he broke through early. Rolling Stone named Rufus Wayne Wright Best New Artist for his self titled debut album. He went on to record nine more studio albums and five live albums. He's won Juno Awards and been nominated for Grammy's. He's been honored by GLAD and has poured his gifts into numerous genres, from pop to standards and even opera. That's Oh, Madame Saint Laen from Rufus's opera Prima Donna. He's also an unabashed lover of theater and of the legendary Judy Garland. News like a bell that is ringing, That's almost like being in love from rufus is two thousand and seven live album Rufus Does Judy at Carnegie Hall. The song's Rufus performs are so wide ranging and demanding, I was curious to hear how he prepares on show day. Yeah, I just got off a fairly long European tour. Um I would say, you know, especially when you're in Europe and you're going, you know, to a different country every day, that usually entails, you know, trying to get some sense of where you are and maybe taking a walk, you know, around the beautiful part of of the place that you're playing. But other than that, you know, I think what I most enjoyed doing, just on a more kind of musical level, is is, you know, I write songs all the time, and if I can get into a mode where I'm writing backstage, I kind of get lost in that process. On one hand, and also it warms up my voice because I'm just sort of, you know, singing repetitively. But then also I have this strange thing where oftentimes I will come up with an amazing lyric or what I think is an amazing lyric right before I have to go on stage. It's like a strange, little cosmic sort of thing that happens, and so I'm always shocked, like, right before I have to, you know, jump onto the stage, it's like melody will come or this lyric will come, and it's kind of you know, the muses playing tricks on me a bit, So like here you go. Now you can't work on this idea now people. Yeah, yeah, it's it happens quite regularly. So wait, so what do you do with it? Then? Right, very quickly, you know, grab my phone and record it and and then run out. But it's odd how that happens almost regularly. If if I am writing before a show, I'm sort of knocked out that you have the energy to write before a show. Yeah, And then often I'll finish the show and come back and I'll continue writing. I Mean it's not always like that, but but I go through periods like that. And actually my band are a little bit chocked. They're like this guy, just somebody turn them off, He's gonna disintegrate. It's kind of unbelievable because performing is exhausting, it's so demanding, and writing your sort of are you asking for energy from a different part of yourself? Yeah, it's a it's a different part of yourself. And then also it's my happy place, you know, what can I say? I mean, it's it's sure beats you know, watching the news on the bus to continue that cosmic journey through you know, lyrics and music. I want to drill down a little bit more on the writing process, Like you said, muses. Do you believe they're a sort of spiritual component or an otherworldly component two ideas dropping into your head? Yes? Yes, Well, speaking with Talia, who of course is one of the muses, yeah no, I I I have a kind of witchy you know, belief and inspiration and you know, coming up with these ideas and characters that kind of speak to you from another world and need to be um manifested and so forth. I I strongly believe in that kind of pagan ritual you know of summoning the music. Yes, what needs to be in place for you to be able to summon them? Like, is there a part of your life that you have to be active in order for that connection to be there? You just have to ask, you know, you just have to summon them. Uh, and it really doesn't take that long. I mean, I and I'm as once again, I'm very lucky to have this because because some artists don't. But I have often found that if I really sit down and I say, look, I got to write this song, you know, send me a message, I am usually rewarded pretty quickly. Uh. Maybe it's not you know, a masterpiece or anything, but I don't know. There's this. I have a very good relationship with the creative forces. For some reason, I have good karma or something. For instance, you know, my sister just wrote a book, Martha Wayne Right. She wrote a book about a sort of a memoir called I think it's called Stories I Might Regret telling you or something, and it's doing quite well. And I've written things occasionally that is the complete opposite. If I have to write prose and sit down and you know, compose a sort of story, that's that that that's like pulling teeth for me. I'm wondering also, like so they're there are these ideas that come from wherever they come from, but then there's the actual work, like the mechanics of sitting down and giving physical form to an idea, which is like a massive amount of work. Do you ever have a day where you're like, and I don't want to do that. If I have to do it, I do it. But it isn't um, I don't know. I mean, I'm someone who maybe because I you know, I have I've had, you know, rather reckless tendencies in the past. You know, I wanted to go out and wanted to kind of lose myself and you know, the dark recesses of of the world occasionally. Therefore, I've always had a lot of projects on the go, whether it's music, nicles or operas or making records, and that does also you know, that gets me out of my head and just allows me you know, just just it's it's it's wholesome in the end, keeps you out of trouble. Yeah, it keeps me out of trouble. There you go, that's fair. Fair, Well, I'm wondering, like the you put out a new album a couple of years ago. And when I think about your evolution as a songwriter, I'm wondering how you think that you've changed as a songwriter over time, maybe since you were engaging in some of those dark recesses. Yeah, I mean, certainly every song that I've written, I try to write it as if I've never written a song before, you know. Um. But then of course there are you know, themes that that arise that I've worked with and and and there does seem to be kind of types of songs that I write that are in these compartments. I really try to make it a blank slate at the outset. I think when you do it so much and for so many different types of objects, you do have to sort of, you know, you have to be able to get super sent about it at the outset, and then then it takes the form that it will take. I mean, if I was a pop songwriter, you know, and that does exist, you know, there are especially in Los Angeles, I mean there's whole teams of people who churn out these pop hits and they had a real formula to it and a real kind of like desire to know hit a market and stuff that is a big job. I cannot do that. Why is it, like, how is what you are doing different than than what that is? Well, because I'm I'm going you know, for me, it's a spiritual I'm not saying that other people don't have a spiritual connection to their songwriting, but mine is holy, so you know in the sense that like I'm when I'm writing a song, I'm not thinking about any other artist singing out. I'm not thinking about you know, what's on the radio. I'm not thinking about what the kids want to hear or what what's you know popular at the moment. It's like totally devoid of anything like that. And I'm not necess proud of this. It's just how I do it, you know. But that's the journey that I take, and people seem to react well to it. You know. Well, it's kind of always been that weight. Like if I'm as you're saying this, I'm thinking, put out your debut album, the biggest albums that you were, like the Miseducation of Lauren Hill, like Hip Hop, R and B Soul, Mezzanine, Massive Attack, the grunge era had just coming out. It was all about people pretending that they weren't putting effort into anything. Did you have any sense or any care about how you were fitting in at that time? I had no idea what was happening. On many levels, I just wanted to write a really great song. I mean I was, I was very and still am, you know, dedicated to the classics of songwriting, whether it's you know, the Classic American Songbook or you know German Leader or Opera and or or you know, great American musicals, and I just wanted to write something that was kind of arresting, as as those works can be, you know, and a lot of that music, you know, when like Nirvana came out and stuff. I just it's not that I didn't like it or or that I didn't get it. I just didn't. It just wasn't in my per view, which is funny because I ended up going to l A and hanging out with Courtney Love, like I knew all those people. I was in that scene. But I was in my own little bubble, doing my own little thing, and thankfully I had the I had the support to do that with DreamWorks Records and stuff. So, yeah, you said that you wanted to write the great song or that you were on the hunt for something. Was there the first song that came out of you that you were like, Okay, I can do this well. I mean, the one, the one that's most sort of seminal is this song Beauty Mark, that I wrote about my mother early early on, and it's on my first album because I had written a bunch of songs that we're kind of all over the place, and my mother told me that, she said, you know you, she said, you gotta really tighten this up a little bit here, because I don't think we're gonna want to listen to this too much. We should say, like, she was an amazing folk singer. Kate mcgarrig old. Yeah, she was, yeah, yeah, legendary. She wasn't just like some moms like no, no, no, no, she was. She was very um intent on really, you know, giving me a solid education, and therefore was pretty critical of both my sister and I. But so I wrote Beauty Mark as a kind of reply to her, and uh, and she loved that song, and she kind of liked every song after that pretty much except for a few exceptions. And she'd tell you those, oh yeah, she would let right now, So you write that song early on, and you like sort of mentioned that when you were writing at that time in your early career, there was a big lifestyle that was going along with it, partying, having a lot of fun. How did you balance that with the actual craft of like sitting down at the piano and doing what you were doing. Yeah, yeah, well I just it all came together, you know, it was all done at the same time. I mean, I my great saving grace, and it is true, is that I was never able to really perform when I was screwed up, like I like, drinking and singing on stage just did not work for me. I immediately, you know, my tuning faltered and my piano playing I'd make mistakes and stuff. So so I had to have a line and sort of a boarder there that that that I was thankfully I had. But but when I wrote and stuff at home, you know, I could do whatever the hell I wanted, you know, and I very much, you know, kind of would go to a party and then get back at dawn and then you know, write more and beat market such a raw song, as so many of your songs are. I'm wondering, like, as a writer, was it always comfortable for you to go to a place like that and write with that much honesty. Yeah, yeah, no, it was look I had there was never any choice otherwise. I mean, and that and that's more of a family tradition. I mean, if you look at my dad's music loud Wayne right, or my mother or my sister Martha. I mean, we've always imbued our material with you know, blood and for better or for worse. I mean, it's been somewhat of a rocky road, but that was begun by our parents. So yeah, we're just continuing a tradition, and um, it's working for the time being. I don't know if our kids will we'll go into music and do that as well, but who knows. I read somewhere that your parents put you to sleep like in a guitar case when you were a baby. Is that actually folk fairy tale or is that true? That's true? And I have a photograph. I have a photograph. You know, my mother was in the hospital, uh you know, she had me and then they were driving her home, but before going home, she wanted to see my dad in the studio and there was no crib there, so they put me in the guitar case and that was my first ever crib outside of the hospital. It's a guitar case. Yeah, and your parents, I understand split when you were three years old three What did you understand about it at that time or how did they explain it to you? I didn't. I didn't really understand it at all. But the one sort of memory that I have that that stuck with me was wondering why they were putting the dining room table in the back of a truck like that didn't really make much sense to me. But yeah, so I remember that, And yeah, I know it was. It was a very tough divorce for everybody, for both my parents and also for my sister and I. And and we do write about it, you know, we do. We do communicate these stories. I think people appreciate that. But yet, as I said, it comes at a price as well, because you know, the lines can be blurred between you know, the stage and the kitchen. That's sure. I mean, it kind of blows my mind to think about having a mom who's working at communicating her feelings about your family life on stage two audiences while you're growing up in it, Like, can you give me a sense of what it was like to grow up with a songwriter for both parents. Yeah, I mean it was there's just a language that we could all, you know, understand, and that was wonderful to communicate in and look in the end of the day, it got our feelings out and we were able to be passionate and sort of loving and you know, exciting people because you know, we had this, we had good lighting. How did you fall in love with musicals? Like? Your parents were both folk musicians, So where did the love of musicals come from? I would visit my dad and we would go see musicals and York New York, New York, and we go to Annie and Barnum and Cats and stuff. So it was really through him. And then I developed a real passion for Cole Porter especially and those very famous the El Fitzgerald records when she would do the songbook albums, you know, classic. Yeah, and so I would listen to those songs, which were often from musical shows and and uh and then do a little research here and there. I would think that somebody like with with a love of musicals and theater and all that, and with also the widely emotional voice that you have with so much range to it, could have thought about pursuing theater as a curer. Did you ever think about that? Hm? I mean I didn't want. I wanted to write the material, But I am writing. I mean, I've written a musical now that will actually be uh premiered um in about a year or so. I can't really say anything about it, but yes, I am definitely aiming to everything about I know, I know, I know, and and it's and it's got a great story, and there's it's with a great sort of team and and you will know more about it. But I mean, certainly now, you know, with the Udie Garland shows celebrating her one birthday and and singing a lot of those you know, classic musical songs, and and and and also I mean with her especially um, I was like just head over heels in love with movie musicals. You know. For me, I didn't want to be on you know, the stage necessarily in a musical. I wanted to be on a sound stage, you know, with you know, thousands of people surrounding me and you know, fountains and thunderclaps and everything. So that was sort of more what I was susceptible to. Well, there's the glamor of it, but there's also I think the music, Like what was it about the music that Judy Garland saying that made you want to take it on? Yeah? Well, I think with her especially, it was this insane and I'm speaking about her her movies now and the musicals, this insane kind of laser beam of strength that where all of these elements suddenly were mushed together, you know, whether it was her incredible singing, an incredible song, the great lighting, I mean the light, even though I say lighting in a kind of funny way though you can't, but that Hollywood lighting was just so other worldly, and then the great costumes and the great choreographer, and it would all come together in this sort of blinding ray of light and just devastate anyone who even came within, you know, an inch of it. So I was very seduced by that. And of course the music was really top of the list. I mean, I mean in the sense that the songwriters at that time, and a lot of them did write musicals, you know, Irving Berlin and and uh Coal Porter and all of those guys. Is that they they were really celebrated as these uh they were considered gods in a lot of ways. And when I say God's I mean I mean like gods, gods and goddesses more Greek style to what everything, what everybody did. It had to be just so seductive and so powerful and so kind of just undeniable in a lot of ways. And there was a sense of occasion, Like the was a sense of occasion about everything that I think, Yah and I think to be on stage or to be on this fell on screen, you know, you had to be larger than life. Musician, Rufus wayne right. If you love conversations with powerful songwriters, check out our episode with Carly Simon. I had developed my own voice, but with so many influences that I hadn't I hadn't cut myself off from my influences and made a whole me. The umbilical cord was still attached to Odetta, was still attached to Annie Ross of Memberson Wis, and Ross still attached to Pete Seeger To to the various influences, I mean, I still have trouble with that. Here the rest of the conversation with Carly Simon at Here's the thing dot Org. After the break, Rufus shares the special something it takes to do justice to Judy Garland. I'm Talia Schlanger and you're listening to here's the thing wosther yea? And that is of course somewhere over the Rainbow from Rufus, Wayne writes new live album Rufus Does Judy at Capital Studios. Wayne writes music often features big, luscious instrumentation, which makes this gorgeous a cappella moment particularly unique. There's a story behind that, and what it is is that, I mean, that was the song that my mother and I did together since I was a very young child. And when I first did the big you know, tribute shows at Carnegie Hall and at the Palladium in London. You know, we had a big orchestra and everything, and I for that number particularly, I had my mother come out and accompanied me just for the beginning, you know, and then the strings would come in and the band and it would become more like the original. But there was just sort of this nice moment of with the two of us. And then sadly, you know, she passed away from cancer at sixty three, and so it's in a lot of ways that's sort of me, you know, that's her, me and her together. Oh do you mean that you're sort of like marking her absence by having without her? Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, now that's what it is. Yeah, yeah, you can feel that, Like I mean, I think I know many people who have emotional connections to that song for whatever reason. But you can really feel the presence of something. So yeah, now that song, I mean, look, it's been done eight billion times and eight billion different ways, but it's it's amazing how powerful it is and how you know, how it just it's the gifts that keeps giving for sure. Did you perform this album for an audience of one for Renee's Elwigger? Yes? Yes, So what's what's it like to perform just for one? This was a COVID measure, you know, Okay, okay, you know it was. It stemmed from a kind of a series of shot concerts that I did from my living room during COVID when all my tours were canceled and I just did shows here and we would have like a celebrity guest for each one, and so it was part of that that series. And did Renee win a raffle? Is that how she ended upon Renee? We won the raffle and Renee arrived. Really actually we did because we would ask a lot of people and some people could, some people couldn't, some people didn't want to, you know, be anywhere during COVID. So it was we were very fortunate to have her. And yeah, I know she was totally gracious and I think really enjoyed it a lot. And uh, she was going to maybe sing at one point, but but then it didn't really make sense because she had just done Judy and she had won the Oscar for it, and and it was sort of like I think she was ready to like be a spectator, you know, you know, she was ready to she she didn't want to kind of go back into Judy, which I totally understand, you know, move on. Yeah, did you and your mom connect over Judy when you were younger too, or just as a grown up. I mean, I think she appreciated Judy Garland. I think she was also aware that it was, you know, indicative of some other things, you mean in terms of me, you know, loving Judy Garland. It's like, oh my god, you know, my son is not going to be a football player. She was nervous us about a lot of that stuff, you know that I was gay and so I think it was accepted, but but also not necessarily encouraged. She wasn't against it or anything, but it was you know, once again, it was a different world being gay back in the eighties. Was was very different. But but she appreciated her artistry and she loves the song, but she was more of she was really more of a rock and roll person. My mother loved you know, Bob Dylan and the Rolling Stones and people like that. I'm curious about what it was like to come out to your mom at that time. Yeah, I know, it was. It was. It was intense. It was intense. I was only thirteen, so so you know, so so and that was very rare at that time, and AIDS was everywhere, and so it was. It was a heavy duty time. But we got through it, thankfully. Were you scared at that time too, for like, did you have an awareness all the time? You know, I was scared shitless, you know, of what was going on with with AIDS and and everything and h so it was everybody, it was. It was. It was like a very dark period, which I mean we're in a dark period now, but yeah, the AIDS epidemic was pretty bad. I grew up in theater and working in theater. And my first roommate was a gay guy who was he was in his twenties. I was seventeen, and he and his friends sort of showed me how to live and showed me adults. And we were in Toronto, which is quite different, but we you know, I got a sense of it. We've lost friends in our friend group to complications studio HIV, and it's so real and and it's so recent, like it's kind of amazing to make it out of that time safely. Yeah, yeah, no, it is. It is, and and it is and it's somewhat of a miracle, I have to say, because I was, I was. I had some pretty dicey periods at certain points. Um, but you know it is look I mean, and maybe with Judy too, and and and in a strange way with those songs. And also you know, she's going to be she would have been a hundred you know that that's the June tenth is I'm performing, you know, City Winery for her birthday and and and doing some of this out, doing her a lot of these songs. And even though she died at a very young age and she was obviously a victim of addiction and so forth. There's something in her voice that gave a lot of strength to people and really helped Soldier on through you know, really impossible odds. Yeah, and we need honesty from our from our artists. Yeah, that's something I've always admired about your writing. Like, I'm such a long long time fan of yours, And I think one thing when I was getting ready to talk to you today that I was thinking about is like having these really big, grand arrangements, Um, you have to have a real emotional truth to what you're saying for that to all make sense in land and not feel over the topic, to feel real. Is that something you think about in your Well, I have to say, I have to say with this album, I strongly believe that that is one of the its greatest assets, is that this whole judy you know, phantasmagoria beforehand, with the Carnegie Hall and the orchestra and the you know, the big arrangements and everything. That's great and I love doing that and I will do that again, but there's something impairing it all down and really going back to the essentials and and and also really having it leaned mostly on my interpretations as a singer and as an artist. There's a brutality to it, which is good. It's much more fierce. And now I've sung those songs for many years, you know, Like when I made my album, the Judy Album, almost twenty years ago, I didn't know a lot of that material very well. But now I've it's really in my body and and and and I just have to sort of I could do it all a cappella. It's hard to sing like that stuff is not easy to sing. It requires a huge range, right, Yeah, Well, it's just I think it re wires and intelligence. Not not that I'm smart really, because I'm actually quite dumb in a lot of ways. But musically you have to sort of, really I don't. You have to inhabit both the lyrics and the melody and and and sort of really interpret them in a way that that the listener is very much, you know, taken away into this other world. And all those great songs have the ability to do that. Good. That's and Chuck Rufus Wayne, Right, If you're enjoying this episode, don't keep it to yourself, Tell a friend, and be sure to follow us on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. When we return, Rufus Wayne Wright shares his thoughts on how fatherhood has changed him. I'm Talia s Langer and you're listening to here's the thing. I'm going to a town that it's already been. I'm going to place it is already been describe. I'm gonna see some folks who have already been let down. I'm so tired of America. That's Rufus Waynewright performing going to a Town. From his two thousand and seven album release The Stars, Wayne writes, wide ranging style is impossible to pigeonhole for a musician who has straddled so many styles and had such a long career, I was curious who his fans are today, who he sees when he looks out at the crowd. Well, it depends where I am, you know. I especially in Europe, I got a good sense of that. Where you know, in certain places it will all be people my age or older, and then other places there'll be a lot of young people. Like in Spain, for instance, there's still a lot of young people who come to see me. A lot of women, a lot of women, uh, and a lot of straight guys. The gays are a little harder to pin down as usual. What do you mean, they're just a little more Uh, they're very into the flavor of the month. You knows, they're fair weather fans. I mean, they know who I am, and they come occasionally and they've enjoyed their time, and they they've noted my existence. But it's not they're not particularly loyal, which you know, is kind of part of being a gay person sometimes, okay, man, especially not that if the lesbians is the opposite, they're like the most loyal. I mean, they're with you till the bitter end. That's interesting. Do you think that you're being out has affected your career in one way or the other? Yeah, I know very much. I mean I think it's given me um a kind of I don't know, it's been an interesting ride. I mean, I I think fundamentally, I'm very happy with my decision and my story and my career and my legacy are are firmly kind of established and rooted. I do think I lost a lot of opportunities along the way that could have maybe made me i don't know, more mainstream or you know, more maybe more money and stuff. But at the end of the yeah, oh yeah, totally. But funnily enough, I think I actually dodged a bullet because if I, you know, I'm I'm not hounded all the time. I have privacy. I can do what I want to do, you know, I'm not sort of slave, a slave to this show business piece that that. I think people who are are a few notches up for me have to contend with ya. Did anybody ever try to make you keep that? Oh? Yeah, I know they would often say, like, oh, money, just pretend you're bisexual, like when I you know, when I would say it, or that you're are just not talk about it. Yeah, when I look, when I started, it was nobody was doing it. I mean it was and I was in the mainstream. I was signed to a major label and you know, doing big shows. And I was very honest about my sexuality, which was completely unusual at that time, especially for men, because at that time there were people like Melissa Ethridge and Katie Lang had kind of come out of the closet a bit. So it was kind of happening, but it was, but that was more of a sort of how can I say this? I would say it was a thing but it was sort of it was less dangerous I think than a gay man, which is interesting. But then afterwards, you know, it became more common. Do you think that the music industry has changed at all when it comes to welcoming people of all. Yeah, I mean I do actually feel that in the music business it's more it's you know, with people like Little Nasax and Troy Savon, and yes, there's a foothold now that exists. And I think even after you know, the death of of George Michael, which was you know, he obviously struggled so much with his demons, and so there's kind of I don't know, it's it's more embedded at this point. I think in Hollywood and then acting thing, it's completely still out to lunch. I mean, I mean there's it's why is there not one leading man who's gay, really like a leading you know, not one you know still and uh, I mean they kind of toy with it, but but there I think in in Hollywood, it's in the in the movie business and stuff, it's it's still a big problem. I'm thinking about. So ships created this like a wonderful show created by Eugene Levy and his son Dan Levy And as you're saying the same thing about the finale episode, which was considered groundbreaking, you know in the last couple of years where the Dan Levy's character marries a man and it was just this really beautiful, touching wedding ceremony and to to watch and Dan, did you see Dan Levy's mom's tweet. She tweeted today, I regret every single second of worry back in the uninformed eighties, wondering how the world was going to treat my brilliant little boy who loved to twirl. Little did I know that he was going to kick that old world's asked to the curb and create a brand new one. That's great, that's wonderful. Yeah, But I think that that's part of like, I'm grateful to you for being who you are and doing it in the way that you do it, because I think it gives other people license to be themselves and to see that that's that's the way, Like, that's not only the way to live, that's also the way to create art. That's the way to achieve your dreams. That's that's the way to do all of this. Yes, yes, well, thank you so much. It's a really beautiful thing. How um, I'm curious to know if your daughter is interested in music at all. Now, Yeah, I know she is. She she sings and she's interested in it, but she's also interested in her nails and and her hair and her friends. And you know, it's not it's not. There's a whole wide variety of interest there. How do you balance like fatherhood and being there for your kid with all of these demands, and and also like writing before you're getting out on stage on tour, all of the stuff that you do right right now, I just do it. Thankfully. I have the time, and I also have the great the support. I mean, I have a great husband, Yourn, and who's also my manager as well, so that's really helpful because he can really understand, you know, the tight rope that has to be walked. And and once again, I mean, I'm not super famous in the sense that you know, I can have privacy, I can I can have downtime. I'm not hounded like all those people like Lady Gaga and stuff. I mean that that in itself becomes its own job, and that to me would be this just like a bloody nightmare. So yeah, didn't becoming a dad yourself changed the way that you think about your own dad when you're growing up. Yeah, I mean somewhat, some much somewhat. But you have to try to forgive your parents. It's regardless of whether you understand it or not. Is there anything that you learned from him as a dad that you want to pass on to your daughter. He's funny. He has a good sense of humor. Yes, he has an amazing sense of humor. Actually, he's right. He really knows how to make my daughter laugh, and that's very important. And when I say laugh, I mean really laugh. He's he's a he's a brilliant wit and I I admire him for that. You've written so much about craving and longing and desire in your career. And I'm thinking about the album Want One and the song want where you wrote but just want to Dreams? What do you want now? Now? What do I want? A good question, you know, speaking of Broadway, I actually would like to conquer Broadway. It's very simple. I spent you know, during COVID, and this idea to write this musical came up and I did it and uh and and now we're very much in the process of you know, producing the theater piece and and getting you casting and stuff like that. And I do actually see a real opening for me in terms of really being able to gain from all the experiences I've had in the past through opera or through you know, my love of Judy Garland, I can kind of infuse uh, this Broadway dream with that knowledge. So I'm very excited to actually go full on a head into that. That's what I want. I want to conquer Broadway and the West End Broadway. Yeah, let's just keep it simple. Dream. That's what they always think. But what is it that drives you to conquer these new territories after so much time? What is it? Well? I you know, look, it's funny because it's not I never wanted to conquer. For instance, I never wanted to conquer the opera world, and I and I didn't. I mean, I wrote two very beautiful operas and they've done very well, and they're very appreciated, and they're being produced, and but it's not like I'm not like that. I'm not like the leading composer of upper or anything. And in terms of singing the Judy stuff, I never I just did that because I thought it would be fun. But with the Broadway West End stuff that I do want to conquer, that is a more of a blood sport. So I'm embarking on that journey now. I've already already have actually so well, I'm going to wish you well with it. I cannot wait to hear what comes of it. Yeah, well, thank you, thank you, my phone, my thanks to singer, songwriter and opera composer Rufus Wayne Right. You can see him live all over the US and Europe in two and if you're in New York you can catch him at City Winery. He has four dates they're starting June five. I'll leave you with Rufus is Owed to Love in the modern world. This is Vibrate from one one. I'm Talia Schlanger. Alec Baldwin will be back next week. Here's the thing, is brought to you by I Heart Radio, my phones on fard F. Goodness, what all these new drunks to I guess to have no? What's still loud

This is Talia Schlanger and you're listening to Here's the Thing from I Heart Radio. Hello all Line with fits Garman fetching the jacket off these poses, such beautiful poses, mats and feel like picking up roses. That's the absolutely unmistakable voice of Rufus Waynewright. The song is Poses. It's the title track from his second album. You could say that musical craftsmanship was Waynewright's destiny. It's certainly in his DNA. He was born to Folk Royalty, son of singer songwriters Loud and Wayne Wright the third and Kate McGarrigle. His sister, Martha, is also a compelling musician. Rufus Waynewright was playing piano by the time he was six, and touring as a member of the McGarrigle sisters and family when he was only their team, so it's no surprise that he broke through early. Rolling Stone named Rufus Wayne Wright Best New Artist for his self titled debut album. He went on to record nine more studio albums and five live albums. He's won Juno Awards and been nominated for Grammy's. He's been honored by GLAD and has poured his gifts into numerous genres, from pop to standards and even opera. That's Oh, Madame Saint Laen from Rufus's opera Prima Donna. He's also an unabashed lover of theater and of the legendary Judy Garland. News like a bell that is ringing, That's almost like being in love from rufus is two thousand and seven live album Rufus Does Judy at Carnegie Hall. The song's Rufus performs are so wide ranging and demanding, I was curious to hear how he prepares on show day. Yeah, I just got off a fairly long European tour. Um I would say, you know, especially when you're in Europe and you're going, you know, to a different country every day, that usually entails, you know, trying to get some sense of where you are and maybe taking a walk, you know, around the beautiful part of of the place that you're playing. But other than that, you know, I think what I most enjoyed doing, just on a more kind of musical level, is is, you know, I write songs all the time, and if I can get into a mode where I'm writing backstage, I kind of get lost in that process. On one hand, and also it warms up my voice because I'm just sort of, you know, singing repetitively. But then also I have this strange thing where oftentimes I will come up with an amazing lyric or what I think is an amazing lyric right before I have to go on stage. It's like a strange, little cosmic sort of thing that happens, and so I'm always shocked, like, right before I have to, you know, jump onto the stage, it's like melody will come or this lyric will come, and it's kind of you know, the muses playing tricks on me a bit, So like here you go. Now you can't work on this idea now people. Yeah, yeah, it's it happens quite regularly. So wait, so what do you do with it? Then? Right, very quickly, you know, grab my phone and record it and and then run out. But it's odd how that happens almost regularly. If if I am writing before a show, I'm sort of knocked out that you have the energy to write before a show. Yeah, And then often I'll finish the show and come back and I'll continue writing. I Mean it's not always like that, but but I go through periods like that. And actually my band are a little bit chocked. They're like this guy, just somebody turn them off, He's gonna disintegrate. It's kind of unbelievable because performing is exhausting, it's so demanding, and writing your sort of are you asking for energy from a different part of yourself? Yeah, it's a it's a different part of yourself. And then also it's my happy place, you know, what can I say? I mean, it's it's sure beats you know, watching the news on the bus to continue that cosmic journey through you know, lyrics and music. I want to drill down a little bit more on the writing process, Like you said, muses. Do you believe they're a sort of spiritual component or an otherworldly component two ideas dropping into your head? Yes? Yes, Well, speaking with Talia, who of course is one of the muses, yeah no, I I I have a kind of witchy you know, belief and inspiration and you know, coming up with these ideas and characters that kind of speak to you from another world and need to be um manifested and so forth. I I strongly believe in that kind of pagan ritual you know of summoning the music. Yes, what needs to be in place for you to be able to summon them? Like, is there a part of your life that you have to be active in order for that connection to be there? You just have to ask, you know, you just have to summon them. Uh, and it really doesn't take that long. I mean, I and I'm as once again, I'm very lucky to have this because because some artists don't. But I have often found that if I really sit down and I say, look, I got to write this song, you know, send me a message, I am usually rewarded pretty quickly. Uh. Maybe it's not you know, a masterpiece or anything, but I don't know. There's this. I have a very good relationship with the creative forces. For some reason, I have good karma or something. For instance, you know, my sister just wrote a book, Martha Wayne Right. She wrote a book about a sort of a memoir called I think it's called Stories I Might Regret telling you or something, and it's doing quite well. And I've written things occasionally that is the complete opposite. If I have to write prose and sit down and you know, compose a sort of story, that's that that that's like pulling teeth for me. I'm wondering also, like so they're there are these ideas that come from wherever they come from, but then there's the actual work, like the mechanics of sitting down and giving physical form to an idea, which is like a massive amount of work. Do you ever have a day where you're like, and I don't want to do that. If I have to do it, I do it. But it isn't um, I don't know. I mean, I'm someone who maybe because I you know, I have I've had, you know, rather reckless tendencies in the past. You know, I wanted to go out and wanted to kind of lose myself and you know, the dark recesses of of the world occasionally. Therefore, I've always had a lot of projects on the go, whether it's music, nicles or operas or making records, and that does also you know, that gets me out of my head and just allows me you know, just just it's it's it's wholesome in the end, keeps you out of trouble. Yeah, it keeps me out of trouble. There you go, that's fair. Fair, Well, I'm wondering, like the you put out a new album a couple of years ago. And when I think about your evolution as a songwriter, I'm wondering how you think that you've changed as a songwriter over time, maybe since you were engaging in some of those dark recesses. Yeah, I mean, certainly every song that I've written, I try to write it as if I've never written a song before, you know. Um. But then of course there are you know, themes that that arise that I've worked with and and and there does seem to be kind of types of songs that I write that are in these compartments. I really try to make it a blank slate at the outset. I think when you do it so much and for so many different types of objects, you do have to sort of, you know, you have to be able to get super sent about it at the outset, and then then it takes the form that it will take. I mean, if I was a pop songwriter, you know, and that does exist, you know, there are especially in Los Angeles, I mean there's whole teams of people who churn out these pop hits and they had a real formula to it and a real kind of like desire to know hit a market and stuff that is a big job. I cannot do that. Why is it, like, how is what you are doing different than than what that is? Well, because I'm I'm going you know, for me, it's a spiritual I'm not saying that other people don't have a spiritual connection to their songwriting, but mine is holy, so you know in the sense that like I'm when I'm writing a song, I'm not thinking about any other artist singing out. I'm not thinking about you know, what's on the radio. I'm not thinking about what the kids want to hear or what what's you know popular at the moment. It's like totally devoid of anything like that. And I'm not necess proud of this. It's just how I do it, you know. But that's the journey that I take, and people seem to react well to it. You know. Well, it's kind of always been that weight. Like if I'm as you're saying this, I'm thinking, put out your debut album, the biggest albums that you were, like the Miseducation of Lauren Hill, like Hip Hop, R and B Soul, Mezzanine, Massive Attack, the grunge era had just coming out. It was all about people pretending that they weren't putting effort into anything. Did you have any sense or any care about how you were fitting in at that time? I had no idea what was happening. On many levels, I just wanted to write a really great song. I mean I was, I was very and still am, you know, dedicated to the classics of songwriting, whether it's you know, the Classic American Songbook or you know German Leader or Opera and or or you know, great American musicals, and I just wanted to write something that was kind of arresting, as as those works can be, you know, and a lot of that music, you know, when like Nirvana came out and stuff. I just it's not that I didn't like it or or that I didn't get it. I just didn't. It just wasn't in my per view, which is funny because I ended up going to l A and hanging out with Courtney Love, like I knew all those people. I was in that scene. But I was in my own little bubble, doing my own little thing, and thankfully I had the I had the support to do that with DreamWorks Records and stuff. So, yeah, you said that you wanted to write the great song or that you were on the hunt for something. Was there the first song that came out of you that you were like, Okay, I can do this well. I mean, the one, the one that's most sort of seminal is this song Beauty Mark, that I wrote about my mother early early on, and it's on my first album because I had written a bunch of songs that we're kind of all over the place, and my mother told me that, she said, you know you, she said, you gotta really tighten this up a little bit here, because I don't think we're gonna want to listen to this too much. We should say, like, she was an amazing folk singer. Kate mcgarrig old. Yeah, she was, yeah, yeah, legendary. She wasn't just like some moms like no, no, no, no, she was. She was very um intent on really, you know, giving me a solid education, and therefore was pretty critical of both my sister and I. But so I wrote Beauty Mark as a kind of reply to her, and uh, and she loved that song, and she kind of liked every song after that pretty much except for a few exceptions. And she'd tell you those, oh yeah, she would let right now, So you write that song early on, and you like sort of mentioned that when you were writing at that time in your early career, there was a big lifestyle that was going along with it, partying, having a lot of fun. How did you balance that with the actual craft of like sitting down at the piano and doing what you were doing. Yeah, yeah, well I just it all came together, you know, it was all done at the same time. I mean, I my great saving grace, and it is true, is that I was never able to really perform when I was screwed up, like I like, drinking and singing on stage just did not work for me. I immediately, you know, my tuning faltered and my piano playing I'd make mistakes and stuff. So so I had to have a line and sort of a boarder there that that that I was thankfully I had. But but when I wrote and stuff at home, you know, I could do whatever the hell I wanted, you know, and I very much, you know, kind of would go to a party and then get back at dawn and then you know, write more and beat market such a raw song, as so many of your songs are. I'm wondering, like, as a writer, was it always comfortable for you to go to a place like that and write with that much honesty. Yeah, yeah, no, it was look I had there was never any choice otherwise. I mean, and that and that's more of a family tradition. I mean, if you look at my dad's music loud Wayne right, or my mother or my sister Martha. I mean, we've always imbued our material with you know, blood and for better or for worse. I mean, it's been somewhat of a rocky road, but that was begun by our parents. So yeah, we're just continuing a tradition, and um, it's working for the time being. I don't know if our kids will we'll go into music and do that as well, but who knows. I read somewhere that your parents put you to sleep like in a guitar case when you were a baby. Is that actually folk fairy tale or is that true? That's true? And I have a photograph. I have a photograph. You know, my mother was in the hospital, uh you know, she had me and then they were driving her home, but before going home, she wanted to see my dad in the studio and there was no crib there, so they put me in the guitar case and that was my first ever crib outside of the hospital. It's a guitar case. Yeah, and your parents, I understand split when you were three years old three What did you understand about it at that time or how did they explain it to you? I didn't. I didn't really understand it at all. But the one sort of memory that I have that that stuck with me was wondering why they were putting the dining room table in the back of a truck like that didn't really make much sense to me. But yeah, so I remember that, And yeah, I know it was. It was a very tough divorce for everybody, for both my parents and also for my sister and I. And and we do write about it, you know, we do. We do communicate these stories. I think people appreciate that. But yet, as I said, it comes at a price as well, because you know, the lines can be blurred between you know, the stage and the kitchen. That's sure. I mean, it kind of blows my mind to think about having a mom who's working at communicating her feelings about your family life on stage two audiences while you're growing up in it, Like, can you give me a sense of what it was like to grow up with a songwriter for both parents. Yeah, I mean it was there's just a language that we could all, you know, understand, and that was wonderful to communicate in and look in the end of the day, it got our feelings out and we were able to be passionate and sort of loving and you know, exciting people because you know, we had this, we had good lighting. How did you fall in love with musicals? Like? Your parents were both folk musicians, So where did the love of musicals come from? I would visit my dad and we would go see musicals and York New York, New York, and we go to Annie and Barnum and Cats and stuff. So it was really through him. And then I developed a real passion for Cole Porter especially and those very famous the El Fitzgerald records when she would do the songbook albums, you know, classic. Yeah, and so I would listen to those songs, which were often from musical shows and and uh and then do a little research here and there. I would think that somebody like with with a love of musicals and theater and all that, and with also the widely emotional voice that you have with so much range to it, could have thought about pursuing theater as a curer. Did you ever think about that? Hm? I mean I didn't want. I wanted to write the material, But I am writing. I mean, I've written a musical now that will actually be uh premiered um in about a year or so. I can't really say anything about it, but yes, I am definitely aiming to everything about I know, I know, I know, and and it's and it's got a great story, and there's it's with a great sort of team and and you will know more about it. But I mean, certainly now, you know, with the Udie Garland shows celebrating her one birthday and and singing a lot of those you know, classic musical songs, and and and and also I mean with her especially um, I was like just head over heels in love with movie musicals. You know. For me, I didn't want to be on you know, the stage necessarily in a musical. I wanted to be on a sound stage, you know, with you know, thousands of people surrounding me and you know, fountains and thunderclaps and everything. So that was sort of more what I was susceptible to. Well, there's the glamor of it, but there's also I think the music, Like what was it about the music that Judy Garland saying that made you want to take it on? Yeah? Well, I think with her especially, it was this insane and I'm speaking about her her movies now and the musicals, this insane kind of laser beam of strength that where all of these elements suddenly were mushed together, you know, whether it was her incredible singing, an incredible song, the great lighting, I mean the light, even though I say lighting in a kind of funny way though you can't, but that Hollywood lighting was just so other worldly, and then the great costumes and the great choreographer, and it would all come together in this sort of blinding ray of light and just devastate anyone who even came within, you know, an inch of it. So I was very seduced by that. And of course the music was really top of the list. I mean, I mean in the sense that the songwriters at that time, and a lot of them did write musicals, you know, Irving Berlin and and uh Coal Porter and all of those guys. Is that they they were really celebrated as these uh they were considered gods in a lot of ways. And when I say God's I mean I mean like gods, gods and goddesses more Greek style to what everything, what everybody did. It had to be just so seductive and so powerful and so kind of just undeniable in a lot of ways. And there was a sense of occasion, Like the was a sense of occasion about everything that I think, Yah and I think to be on stage or to be on this fell on screen, you know, you had to be larger than life. Musician, Rufus wayne right. If you love conversations with powerful songwriters, check out our episode with Carly Simon. I had developed my own voice, but with so many influences that I hadn't I hadn't cut myself off from my influences and made a whole me. The umbilical cord was still attached to Odetta, was still attached to Annie Ross of Memberson Wis, and Ross still attached to Pete Seeger To to the various influences, I mean, I still have trouble with that. Here the rest of the conversation with Carly Simon at Here's the thing dot Org. After the break, Rufus shares the special something it takes to do justice to Judy Garland. I'm Talia Schlanger and you're listening to here's the thing wosther yea? And that is of course somewhere over the Rainbow from Rufus, Wayne writes new live album Rufus Does Judy at Capital Studios. Wayne writes music often features big, luscious instrumentation, which makes this gorgeous a cappella moment particularly unique. There's a story behind that, and what it is is that, I mean, that was the song that my mother and I did together since I was a very young child. And when I first did the big you know, tribute shows at Carnegie Hall and at the Palladium in London. You know, we had a big orchestra and everything, and I for that number particularly, I had my mother come out and accompanied me just for the beginning, you know, and then the strings would come in and the band and it would become more like the original. But there was just sort of this nice moment of with the two of us. And then sadly, you know, she passed away from cancer at sixty three, and so it's in a lot of ways that's sort of me, you know, that's her, me and her together. Oh do you mean that you're sort of like marking her absence by having without her? Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, now that's what it is. Yeah, yeah, you can feel that, Like I mean, I think I know many people who have emotional connections to that song for whatever reason. But you can really feel the presence of something. So yeah, now that song, I mean, look, it's been done eight billion times and eight billion different ways, but it's it's amazing how powerful it is and how you know, how it just it's the gifts that keeps giving for sure. Did you perform this album for an audience of one for Renee's Elwigger? Yes? Yes, So what's what's it like to perform just for one? This was a COVID measure, you know, Okay, okay, you know it was. It stemmed from a kind of a series of shot concerts that I did from my living room during COVID when all my tours were canceled and I just did shows here and we would have like a celebrity guest for each one, and so it was part of that that series. And did Renee win a raffle? Is that how she ended upon Renee? We won the raffle and Renee arrived. Really actually we did because we would ask a lot of people and some people could, some people couldn't, some people didn't want to, you know, be anywhere during COVID. So it was we were very fortunate to have her. And yeah, I know she was totally gracious and I think really enjoyed it a lot. And uh, she was going to maybe sing at one point, but but then it didn't really make sense because she had just done Judy and she had won the Oscar for it, and and it was sort of like I think she was ready to like be a spectator, you know, you know, she was ready to she she didn't want to kind of go back into Judy, which I totally understand, you know, move on. Yeah, did you and your mom connect over Judy when you were younger too, or just as a grown up. I mean, I think she appreciated Judy Garland. I think she was also aware that it was, you know, indicative of some other things, you mean in terms of me, you know, loving Judy Garland. It's like, oh my god, you know, my son is not going to be a football player. She was nervous us about a lot of that stuff, you know that I was gay and so I think it was accepted, but but also not necessarily encouraged. She wasn't against it or anything, but it was you know, once again, it was a different world being gay back in the eighties. Was was very different. But but she appreciated her artistry and she loves the song, but she was more of she was really more of a rock and roll person. My mother loved you know, Bob Dylan and the Rolling Stones and people like that. I'm curious about what it was like to come out to your mom at that time. Yeah, I know, it was. It was. It was intense. It was intense. I was only thirteen, so so you know, so so and that was very rare at that time, and AIDS was everywhere, and so it was. It was a heavy duty time. But we got through it, thankfully. Were you scared at that time too, for like, did you have an awareness all the time? You know, I was scared shitless, you know, of what was going on with with AIDS and and everything and h so it was everybody, it was. It was. It was like a very dark period, which I mean we're in a dark period now, but yeah, the AIDS epidemic was pretty bad. I grew up in theater and working in theater. And my first roommate was a gay guy who was he was in his twenties. I was seventeen, and he and his friends sort of showed me how to live and showed me adults. And we were in Toronto, which is quite different, but we you know, I got a sense of it. We've lost friends in our friend group to complications studio HIV, and it's so real and and it's so recent, like it's kind of amazing to make it out of that time safely. Yeah, yeah, no, it is. It is, and and it is and it's somewhat of a miracle, I have to say, because I was, I was. I had some pretty dicey periods at certain points. Um, but you know it is look I mean, and maybe with Judy too, and and and in a strange way with those songs. And also you know, she's going to be she would have been a hundred you know that that's the June tenth is I'm performing, you know, City Winery for her birthday and and and doing some of this out, doing her a lot of these songs. And even though she died at a very young age and she was obviously a victim of addiction and so forth. There's something in her voice that gave a lot of strength to people and really helped Soldier on through you know, really impossible odds. Yeah, and we need honesty from our from our artists. Yeah, that's something I've always admired about your writing. Like, I'm such a long long time fan of yours, And I think one thing when I was getting ready to talk to you today that I was thinking about is like having these really big, grand arrangements, Um, you have to have a real emotional truth to what you're saying for that to all make sense in land and not feel over the topic, to feel real. Is that something you think about in your Well, I have to say, I have to say with this album, I strongly believe that that is one of the its greatest assets, is that this whole judy you know, phantasmagoria beforehand, with the Carnegie Hall and the orchestra and the you know, the big arrangements and everything. That's great and I love doing that and I will do that again, but there's something impairing it all down and really going back to the essentials and and and also really having it leaned mostly on my interpretations as a singer and as an artist. There's a brutality to it, which is good. It's much more fierce. And now I've sung those songs for many years, you know, Like when I made my album, the Judy Album, almost twenty years ago, I didn't know a lot of that material very well. But now I've it's really in my body and and and and I just have to sort of I could do it all a cappella. It's hard to sing like that stuff is not easy to sing. It requires a huge range, right, Yeah, Well, it's just I think it re wires and intelligence. Not not that I'm smart really, because I'm actually quite dumb in a lot of ways. But musically you have to sort of, really I don't. You have to inhabit both the lyrics and the melody and and and sort of really interpret them in a way that that the listener is very much, you know, taken away into this other world. And all those great songs have the ability to do that. Good. That's and Chuck Rufus Wayne, Right, If you're enjoying this episode, don't keep it to yourself, Tell a friend, and be sure to follow us on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. When we return, Rufus Wayne Wright shares his thoughts on how fatherhood has changed him. I'm Talia s Langer and you're listening to here's the thing. I'm going to a town that it's already been. I'm going to place it is already been describe. I'm gonna see some folks who have already been let down. I'm so tired of America. That's Rufus Waynewright performing going to a Town. From his two thousand and seven album release The Stars, Wayne writes, wide ranging style is impossible to pigeonhole for a musician who has straddled so many styles and had such a long career, I was curious who his fans are today, who he sees when he looks out at the crowd. Well, it depends where I am, you know. I especially in Europe, I got a good sense of that. Where you know, in certain places it will all be people my age or older, and then other places there'll be a lot of young people. Like in Spain, for instance, there's still a lot of young people who come to see me. A lot of women, a lot of women, uh, and a lot of straight guys. The gays are a little harder to pin down as usual. What do you mean, they're just a little more Uh, they're very into the flavor of the month. You knows, they're fair weather fans. I mean, they know who I am, and they come occasionally and they've enjoyed their time, and they they've noted my existence. But it's not they're not particularly loyal, which you know, is kind of part of being a gay person sometimes, okay, man, especially not that if the lesbians is the opposite, they're like the most loyal. I mean, they're with you till the bitter end. That's interesting. Do you think that you're being out has affected your career in one way or the other? Yeah, I know very much. I mean I think it's given me um a kind of I don't know, it's been an interesting ride. I mean, I I think fundamentally, I'm very happy with my decision and my story and my career and my legacy are are firmly kind of established and rooted. I do think I lost a lot of opportunities along the way that could have maybe made me i don't know, more mainstream or you know, more maybe more money and stuff. But at the end of the yeah, oh yeah, totally. But funnily enough, I think I actually dodged a bullet because if I, you know, I'm I'm not hounded all the time. I have privacy. I can do what I want to do, you know, I'm not sort of slave, a slave to this show business piece that that. I think people who are are a few notches up for me have to contend with ya. Did anybody ever try to make you keep that? Oh? Yeah, I know they would often say, like, oh, money, just pretend you're bisexual, like when I you know, when I would say it, or that you're are just not talk about it. Yeah, when I look, when I started, it was nobody was doing it. I mean it was and I was in the mainstream. I was signed to a major label and you know, doing big shows. And I was very honest about my sexuality, which was completely unusual at that time, especially for men, because at that time there were people like Melissa Ethridge and Katie Lang had kind of come out of the closet a bit. So it was kind of happening, but it was, but that was more of a sort of how can I say this? I would say it was a thing but it was sort of it was less dangerous I think than a gay man, which is interesting. But then afterwards, you know, it became more common. Do you think that the music industry has changed at all when it comes to welcoming people of all. Yeah, I mean I do actually feel that in the music business it's more it's you know, with people like Little Nasax and Troy Savon, and yes, there's a foothold now that exists. And I think even after you know, the death of of George Michael, which was you know, he obviously struggled so much with his demons, and so there's kind of I don't know, it's it's more embedded at this point. I think in Hollywood and then acting thing, it's completely still out to lunch. I mean, I mean there's it's why is there not one leading man who's gay, really like a leading you know, not one you know still and uh, I mean they kind of toy with it, but but there I think in in Hollywood, it's in the in the movie business and stuff, it's it's still a big problem. I'm thinking about. So ships created this like a wonderful show created by Eugene Levy and his son Dan Levy And as you're saying the same thing about the finale episode, which was considered groundbreaking, you know in the last couple of years where the Dan Levy's character marries a man and it was just this really beautiful, touching wedding ceremony and to to watch and Dan, did you see Dan Levy's mom's tweet. She tweeted today, I regret every single second of worry back in the uninformed eighties, wondering how the world was going to treat my brilliant little boy who loved to twirl. Little did I know that he was going to kick that old world's asked to the curb and create a brand new one. That's great, that's wonderful. Yeah, But I think that that's part of like, I'm grateful to you for being who you are and doing it in the way that you do it, because I think it gives other people license to be themselves and to see that that's that's the way, Like, that's not only the way to live, that's also the way to create art. That's the way to achieve your dreams. That's that's the way to do all of this. Yes, yes, well, thank you so much. It's a really beautiful thing. How um, I'm curious to know if your daughter is interested in music at all. Now, Yeah, I know she is. She she sings and she's interested in it, but she's also interested in her nails and and her hair and her friends. And you know, it's not it's not. There's a whole wide variety of interest there. How do you balance like fatherhood and being there for your kid with all of these demands, and and also like writing before you're getting out on stage on tour, all of the stuff that you do right right now, I just do it. Thankfully. I have the time, and I also have the great the support. I mean, I have a great husband, Yourn, and who's also my manager as well, so that's really helpful because he can really understand, you know, the tight rope that has to be walked. And and once again, I mean, I'm not super famous in the sense that you know, I can have privacy, I can I can have downtime. I'm not hounded like all those people like Lady Gaga and stuff. I mean that that in itself becomes its own job, and that to me would be this just like a bloody nightmare. So yeah, didn't becoming a dad yourself changed the way that you think about your own dad when you're growing up. Yeah, I mean somewhat, some much somewhat. But you have to try to forgive your parents. It's regardless of whether you understand it or not. Is there anything that you learned from him as a dad that you want to pass on to your daughter. He's funny. He has a good sense of humor. Yes, he has an amazing sense of humor. Actually, he's right. He really knows how to make my daughter laugh, and that's very important. And when I say laugh, I mean really laugh. He's he's a he's a brilliant wit and I I admire him for that. You've written so much about craving and longing and desire in your career. And I'm thinking about the album Want One and the song want where you wrote but just want to Dreams? What do you want now? Now? What do I want? A good question, you know, speaking of Broadway, I actually would like to conquer Broadway. It's very simple. I spent you know, during COVID, and this idea to write this musical came up and I did it and uh and and now we're very much in the process of you know, producing the theater piece and and getting you casting and stuff like that. And I do actually see a real opening for me in terms of really being able to gain from all the experiences I've had in the past through opera or through you know, my love of Judy Garland, I can kind of infuse uh, this Broadway dream with that knowledge. So I'm very excited to actually go full on a head into that. That's what I want. I want to conquer Broadway and the West End Broadway. Yeah, let's just keep it simple. Dream. That's what they always think. But what is it that drives you to conquer these new territories after so much time? What is it? Well? I you know, look, it's funny because it's not I never wanted to conquer. For instance, I never wanted to conquer the opera world, and I and I didn't. I mean, I wrote two very beautiful operas and they've done very well, and they're very appreciated, and they're being produced, and but it's not like I'm not like that. I'm not like the leading composer of upper or anything. And in terms of singing the Judy stuff, I never I just did that because I thought it would be fun. But with the Broadway West End stuff that I do want to conquer, that is a more of a blood sport. So I'm embarking on that journey now. I've already already have actually so well, I'm going to wish you well with it. I cannot wait to hear what comes of it. Yeah, well, thank you, thank you, my phone, my thanks to singer, songwriter and opera composer Rufus Wayne Right. You can see him live all over the US and Europe in two and if you're in New York you can catch him at City Winery. He has four dates they're starting June five. I'll leave you with Rufus is Owed to Love in the modern world. This is Vibrate from one one. I'm Talia Schlanger. Alec Baldwin will be back next week. Here's the thing, is brought to you by I Heart Radio, my phones on fard F. Goodness, what all these new drunks to I guess to have no? What's still loud