Musical theater legends Ken Page and Betty Buckley have a lot in common. Both grew up dreaming of performing on Broadway: Ken in St. Louis; Betty in Fort Worth. Both were in the original Broadway production of Cats, Ken as Old Deuteronomy and Betty as Grizabella, for which she won a Tony. And both were pioneers in transforming musical theater over the past several decades. One of Ken Page’s most recognizable roles was as Oogie Boogie in The Nightmare Before Christmas, and, on Broadway, he starred in the 1976 all-Black revival of Guys and Dolls and in the original cast of The Wiz and Ain’t Misbehavin’. Betty Buckley has been called “the Voice of Broadway” with and she’s also starred in TV (Eight is Enough) and films (Split, Carrie, Tender Mercies, Frantic).
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I'm Alec Baldwin. Then you were listening to Here's the Thing from My Heart Radio. My guests today are two of my all time favorite musical theater actors, Ken Paige and Betty Buckley, and there are parallels to their stories. Both grew up dreaming of performing on Broadway. Ken in St. Louis, Betty and fort Worth both were cast in the original Broadway production of Cats, Ken as Old Deuteronomy and Betty as Guizzabella, for which she wanted Tony. Both became key figures in the vibrant community that transformed musical theater over the past several decades. In addition to being the voice of Broadway, Betty Buckley's acting chops earned her roles as the step mom on the hit TV series Eight Is Enough and in films including Carrie, Tender Mercies, and Frantic. But first, I'm talking with Ken Page. You may know him as the voice of Bogie Boogie in The Night There Before Christmas. In his breakout role on Broadway, he played Nicely Nicely Johnson in an all black revival of Guys and Dolls in nineteen seventy six. He went on to perform as the Lion in the Whiz and in the original cast of Ain't Misbehavior. Ken Paige was drawn to musical theater early. Yeah, it was my life blood. It was the thing that got me out of where I was to where I went. It was the thing that kept me going through years of up and down childhood things. But it was always musical theater and all of that related world that got me through. I mean, I remember being ten and eleven, of course, watching Barbara strei Sen's TV special going I Am Barbara Streisand and I would go to the library in St. Louis, the big Public Library, and in the basement they had a section of LPs, and I would thumb through all of these Broadway cast albums. I would read the line of notes, and this one lady when I first couple of times that came, she was a little triviuted, like what are you doing in here? And she saw, you know, I'd be sitting on the floor reading Broadway cast album liner notes, and I'm sure she thought, is this child from Mars? Or was was the deal? But I started to educate myself that early about musical theater because it just fascinated me. And of course the own two only things that I really saw was the Tony Awards once a year, and I would see all the shows and I was fascinated by it. And we had this grand outdoor theater still have in St. Louis called at that time it was the Municipal Opera and now it's called the Muni, so a lot of people in the business know the Muni. And that was the first time I saw a live production on stage. It was Oklahoma with Robert Horton as Curly and he came out on a real horse. And all those people in Missouri demand no less, they must have a real horse. That's right, show me to show me state. So he came out on a horse, and of course when you see something like that, you fall in love with it. And subsequently it's a lot of shows. And it was the theater that made me really fall in love with musical theater because I could see it. And then it was the theater that inspired me to move to New York. And when did you study voice acting? I did acting school. I did. I went to two years at Fontbonne University in St. Louis in a scholarship. I like to say this because now I'm over fifty. I can brag right. I received a scholarship in art music for vocal performance and theater, and I chose theater subsequently. At the same time those two summers, I did seasons at the Muni in the ensemble I started when I was eighteen, those two shows of the Muni. With those your first two shows you did. Had you been doing shows when you were younger? When did you start performing in front of people? In front of people? Really sixth grade, I was part of a thing here in Saying. It was called the Bellerman's Speech League, which my cousin had been in, but it was one of those competitive citywide things. So that was really the first time I stepped in front of people performing ring. And then of course in high school I did your usual high school musical's Funny Girl, Oliver, Hello, Dolly Fitler on the Route And it was that that led me to audition for scholarship or college, which I got. I wish at the time I'd known about Juilliard and Goodman and schools like that, but they really didn't promote it because the idea was stay here and go to school, and St. Louis has a very home grown mentality that way, and it really wasn't promoted to me to audition for The Goodman, which was only in Chicago, and certainly not Juilliard, which was New York. And I think, not to be egotistical, but I think I might have really been able to to get into those schools and for so for you, I wonder it's it's like, and again I'm gonna say this eleven times during the course of this interview, but you're so talented. I mean, you are so talented. You like the male musical theater, Annie Oakley, boom boom boom. Anything you can do, I can you can do better than. But if you've gone to those Nancy schools, what would have changed everything? You think? So everything? Oh? Sure, Because first of all, to go to any of those schools, you're living away from home. So that's the first big change, which means you explore your life, never mind the education, you explore your life differently. For me, I think being away from St. Louis would have made a big difference in how I explored what I was doing. My mentor, God Bless and rest him, Don Garner, when I realized that I wanted to go to New York, I went to him and I said, look, I think I want to go to New York, and you shut the door to his office. He says, all right, I didn't say this, but I think you will learn in the next two years in New York what you would It would take you six years here to learn if you go and apply yourself and really do what I think you would do or will do. And indeed, by the two years when my class graduated, I was in my first Broadway show, which was an all black revival of Guys and Dolls. Yeah, and how long did that run? Not long? Now? What what do you attribute that too? Well, it was very controversial because at one it was an all black version of something, and then this is minus nineteen seventies six, so things hadn't moved quite nearly as far as they have come to thus hard. And also it was Guys and Dolls, which is a sacred musical theater piece. And there were people who were pro because you know, pro Bailey's version of Hello Dolly had already happened, and people thought, oh my god, that was wonderful, so dusk Guys and Dolls. But I think because Hello Dolly is such a the whole from Thornton Wilder on it's such an open book of who these people are. Guys and Dolls was a very specific New York Jewish idiom. So there were people who thought we had no business tampering, tinkering, tooling with guys and dolls. And then there were other people who thought, thank god, there's some different energy on it and our production, the the arrangements, since we couldn't change a note of the music. But that's all another story. The arrangements had a sort of a wa waca waca disco kind of thing running under and when you hear the Broadway cast album now, it's really very electric and alive. People loved it. Those who loved I remember, may I say Rex Read said something about saying that songs sit down, you're rocking the boat, and he said I turned it into a gospel stomp and it was just terrible. Oh, Rex was unkind to you, I'd say, yeah, but he was unkind to everybody, but he was specifically. But it was interesting because I always remember thinking, even then, at twenty one, I thought, what didn't Frank Lesser write a gospel number? Isn't that what this is supposed to be? These people in the Savus all mission and its gospel tinge and so all we really did was took it the next step towards what he was writing to begin with, which I think the last eight measures of the song go sit down, you're rocking, Sit down, sit down, sit down, you're rocking the boat blah blah blah blah. Were they allowed us to change that to the devil drag you under. It was so so heavy you never bloat, sit down, sit down? Is it down? Sit huh? Which took it in another direction. Well that was successful in uf that the audience would scream and carry on and they loved it. So then they wrote an encore which is completely new, and sometimes the encore would get two and three renditions a night. Thank god I was twenty one, you know, because the people dream and they'd applaud and they go on and Joe Marshall, God Resting was our drummer. It was really he who decided he'd listened to the crowd and he looked at me, and he listened to the crowd, and then he'd hit the drum field but had a dream. And the more the people screamed, of course, we do it again and again again. So I'm saying that to say that was one of the things out of that show that kept it going, frankly, because people came to see what was new in Guys and Dolls. You weren't in The Whiz prior to Guys and Does No. I've seen that written a few places, and I always try to correct it because Guys and Dolls was nineteen seventy six and I didn't go into The Whiz until late seventy almost seventy seven. So you go from one adaptation of a sacred musical to another adaptation of someone. I'm sure you also were impersonating in the bathroom with a brush in your hand, Judy Garland, when you go do the Whiz? Was it a different bowl of wax there? And the way you were treated with adapting Wizard of Us with a podcast, Oh god, because The Whiz was unapologetically black, even though based on L. Frank Baum's in the music and so forth. But the Whiz open and that was a blockbuster. It wasn't at first they actually had the closing notice up, and then Ken Harper went to twenty Century Fox. They invested in a TV commercial and it was so great, and then they went to the churches in Brooklyn. Stephanie Mills belonged to the biggest church, African American church in Brooklyn. They went to them. They then went to Sister brother churches. All of these people started buying tickets and came in bust loos and we know the dollar rules. So as long as there were people there, the show was going to keep running by virtue of its staying where it was. The word of mouth picked up and then other people started coming. Finished that story to say that by the time it got around to the Tony Awards, they were nominated for eleven Tony Awards. I think they won six. So guys and Dolls nicely, nicely, the Lion and the Whiz and these are not lead roles. You're playing more supporting roles. And the next thing is ain't misbehavior and correct and when you do that, you get a lead role in Ain't Misbehaving? Yeah, well, you know, I mean it's interesting because the five characters, if you will, and amos behavior, we're all supporting people. So the five of us really were the leads, but we were used to being supporting people, so we supported each other in the way that we had supported other people. In productions, which made it a very powerful ensemble. When did you notice that you walked in the room and everybody sat up and they were like, it'sken, you know what I mean? Like you really the town started to adopt you, that you were part of a business in an industry in New York. That was the blessing of guys and dolls is that I did a beloved role and by me having some sort of a personal signature on it, it separated me from the great stu w k. So Broadway sort of said who is this I remember Clive Barnes. I didn't know who he was at the time, but he wrote a sort of love letter in The Times and saying who is this guy? Where did he come from? People calling me up saying did you read that thing at the Times this morning? Clive Barnes wrote you a love letter? And I'm like, well, who is Clive Barnes? First of all, they're like, okay, letters, he writing me love letters. But what it did was it opened the door to Broadway and it said this guy is Broadway caliber. Wherever he came from, welcome dot dot dot. So it sort of sucked me right into the center of the Broadway community immediately and then they get to do The Whiz behind it, which was a huge, huge, huge hit and still very much at the top of the list of appreciate it shows. I'll tell this story and I think you'll know what I mean. I had done a club act at Leemouche. You know, it was a big disco, but it was also a big club there too. I did a tribute it to all of the black shows who were running abroad WITHY at the time, and there were many at the time, and I sort of linked them. I didn't songs from Raisin and the Whiz and of course Guys and Dolls and a couple of and I would link them together with He's on down the Road, Okay, let's go on, we go, He's on down He's on down road to raise it and blow. And some of the people from the Whiz came to see my show because I was in Guys and Dolls and they heard so they called me in shortly after Guys and Dolls closed, and I had auditioned for The Whiz before, and I just knew I was perfect for it because I had seen the out of town tryout in Detroit, and I went in and I sang men no line and they said, thank you, that's it. I know I'm right for this put How damn you say that like that? So when it came back around, my agents said, well, you know, they want to see you at the Majestic you know, And I said, hih auditioned for the Whiz they didn't like me. He said no, no, I don't think you understand. They saw your club act. They want to see you at the Majestic Theater. They're not having auditions, they're auditioning you. So I said, oh ship. So I went in and Ken Harbor indeed was there, and I sang the songs and he walked down to the edge of the stage and he shook my hand and he says, are you busy for the rest of the afternoon? And I said no. He said good, then go down and get your costume measurement. And it took me a minute to understand that mean I got the part. I was like, why, how what do you want? I wonderful? Yeah, he said. So in answer to your question, I would say, that's the first time people sat up when I walked in the room. But it was still different because they invited me into the room Broadway star Ken Paige. If you enjoy listening to conversations with the grades of musical theater, be sure to check out my conversation with another Broadway star, Kelly O'Hara. Even after hos a week, I find myself kind of dealing with all of this, all of my innards out there. It's how I filter, it's how I process, I think, and it's why I'm not quite tired of it. For the most part, I find that I go inside it as opposed to just dealing with it all out here. You're more of my conversation with Kelly O'Hara that Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Ken Paige talks about learning comedic timing from some of the best in the business. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing I dream last night. I got on the boat to Heaven and by some chance I had brought my das along and there are start and someone fade me. But the acid test they do right from wrong. All the people all sends it up. Sit down on your rocket boat. Yes, people all sence it out. Sit down. That's Ken Paige performing sit Down You're rocking the Boat from the nineteen six Broadway revival of Guys and Dolls. During his tenure on Broadway, Ken Paige would often perform solo in smaller clubs. Oftentimes, his cast mates and other performers were his best audience with the Broadway community, especially back then. You were in that show at that time, but you were still part of a larger community at large. However long you've been around, chances are you'd worked with just about anybody or everybody at some point. So there was a serious sense of community, that support of people, knew people. I can't even tell you. I remember doing again Guys and Dolls A Burrows, who of course was a towering figure in the musical theater him teaching me about comedy timing. He said, look, these jokes are funny, you know what I'm saying. I said, well, I assume him, but you got to do a three rhythm thing for him to work. If you break the rhythm, they're not funny. And my example was I came out with a sandwich and Nathan says, hey, nicely, where you've been, And I'd say I had to get something to eat. I felt a little faint and I would just say the line crickets. You could hear not spart. It was that quiet, you know. And he said to me, no, no, hey, you gotta take two beats before you speak, take a bite of the sandwich, and then you say the line with your mouthful. And it's funny. Thought, well, that's very specific. I don't know, you know, maybe I don't want to do that. Hey, he wrote it. He ought to know, right, So I did it. He says, hey, nicely, where have you been? And I stopped and I took a bye to the sandwich. I would all heard a good trouperty. I felt a little faint roaring laughter. So you know what I mean? Right? And I thought to myself, learn, learn, learn. Is people were generous, not only in the production, but they were generous to tell you things. So getting into that whole thing of like, you start to feel more, uh, emboldened. Sure. I think with each show successively, you become more and more aware of what you have that's yours, that is applicable to whatever situation you're in. But it takes. It's a process to you get that sort of confidence that while I'm gonna sing this song, there's something I do with my boys, with my intention with this that that is particular to me, that's gonna make this sing, you know what I mean? And with a mis behaving. Of course, the opportunity was golden because there was nothing. Hello, There was a stack of Xerox music that Fats Roller and other people wrote. And then that was it who shaped that? Who was responsible for shaping that? Uh? Well, we all were. I'm gonna say that now on record, because Richard Mulby was a wonderful director in many ways, and he certainly put us together. Murray Horowitz who was the jazz aficionado, and Arthur Farria, who was our choreographer. It was really this combined effort of everybody. Needless to say, five African American performers brought much of what you saw from our own selves. There was no written characters, There was no scenario that we were following. It was just a matter of you walk in the door and she walks over to you and she sayings, baby, baby, what is the matter with you? Well, you gotta know who you are, what your intention is, what you're trying to do. All that had to be provided by the actor who was us right, And that was the way the show really was created. I mean, you know it was set up so a misbehaving and then you go into Cats. Now, you were in the original company of Cats, the original Broadway cast. Yes, you were in the original You were in the original Broadway company of Cats. American Daughters in Buckley and Harry groner Man, Terry Man amazing, Betty Buckley, Oh my god. So how did that come together? Well, we want to say first, it was a huge hit in London, so it had it had already sailed the seas. It was just coming in our direction. But that was part of what made it such a big deal for Broadway. It's because it was such a huge hit in London and they were going to do the American production, and how do you get summoned to that? Well, weirdly, because they were seeing people for six months for this show. Everybody who could crawl on four legs was there auditioning. And I didn't think there was anything in the show for me. I just thought it was a dance show and it was about people in leotard's not me. And I know I didn't paid any attention. And I went to the closing performance of Ain't misbehavior on Broadway. I wasn't in the show by that point, but I went to the closing performance and Bernard Jacobs, Bernie Jacobs was there and he came up to me and said, Kenny, have you been seen for Cats? And I said, no, no, I haven't. He says, I want you to go in. I want you to blah blah blah, so oh Deuteronomy. I think it's a good role for you. I didn't know anything about it. He said, go up to Benny Lifts office and get the music and I'm gonna have them call you in now. Footnote. They had not called me in, and I was certainly someone who was on the scene well enough by that point, but I guess they did not see me the way Bernie summy. But he says, that's it. You're gonna go in, and that's what it's gonna be. Right. So I am. They're learning the addressing of Cats. I'm going over the song. I had to audition for the show and Armelia, my late dear, dear, dear friend of me, it was in the room next to me, and she said, i'd hear you in the shower page that you've heard of said kind. She said, I would think, okay, not so good yet, but but it'll get there. That it was great, so we come back. I go in and by this point it's the last week of the auditions and they were really calling a lot of people's names and thrown them around. So I go in on Monday. I sang and they said okay, great. So they said come back on Friday and could you possibly said could you possibly learn a dramatic monologue? I thought, oh, f me from the show or from some other source, something anything, just a monologue, And I think, or not to be yes, I'm thinking, ain't it a musical? So I go I learned I luckily had done this monologue and a show I did about Louis Armstrong. I played the character Joe Oliver, his mentor. So I had a monologue. Okay, so I come back. I do the monologue again. Trevor comes in the stage after monologue and he says, your talents are many fold and manifest. I thought, well, if that wasn't a kiss of death, I think I was like, thank you for playing the British way of saying thank you, you know. So I go out Fire Island for the weekend. They're announcing it on Monday, and this is Friday, and I thought, I'm out of the city. I don't want to be here. So I get back Monday morning. The phone rings and it's Tyler Getchell and he says, oh, Ken Rage is Tyler Gatchell. I said, yes, Tyler, good morning, how are you? I was it? Tell funk around to tell me what's up. I said, I'm good. I'm good. He goes, well, we were wondering here in the office if you'd like to play old Deuteronomy and cats for us, and you know you're not feeling when your heart like sinks and rises at the same time. And I thought, yeah, yes I will, I would please, Yes, I'll take it. How long did you do the show? Two years? Did you find that? You know? Two years? I mean, my god, two years of your life? Every night? What happens during the ark of the two years? Many things. The beginning, of course, is exciting because it's the opening and it's this and the energy and that carries you almost a year. Then it settles in like, okay, now they're coming to see what they've heard about, which means second phase. You've got to deliver the show. It's not just a matter of coming out there on the energy of being fabulous and amazing. Now you've got to deliver them to show that they have paid this high price ticket to see that they've heard is amazing. I like to say that's the second phase. You've got to You've got to meet the standard of the show, not just your own standard. And then the third phase is where I think it becomes a matter of being a professional, where you you know what you're supposed to do, you know the temperature of the show, you know what it's supposed to do. If you know what I mean and you do it, it isn't always inspired, because some nights you do not feel it, but you have po road marks that you hit that gets you through the show, and your technique will carry you the performer. The show will carry everyone, but your technique will carry you personally. And I think also it has a lot to do with how you were trained and you know how you came through the ropes as to how you do that. I came from the old school of you know, you give it your all, you hit it, and if you're doing that, you're not even conscious of it being maybe boring or a little wrote because you always find yourself in the doing. You know, you're considered one of the great great performers in the musical theater, and you walk into the room. What does the director have to offer you? Well, you know, I will use someone as an example. It's Michael Griff, who directed many wonderful things, but Rent was among them. And I've worked with Michael twice. We did a production of Brandy Newman's Faust. I love Michael Griffe because he's one of the and I I you know, I admit I'm not easy because I've been around a long time. So if you don't know something, you better know something. That's what I'm leading to. Yeah, And my feeling is if you know something, I'm down with it. Tell me what you know. But if you don't know anything, you cannot fake it out with me because I see you. As my grandmother said, I knew where you were going before you knew where you were going. It's real, you know what I mean. Michael Griff is one of those directors where and he's so like open and interested in what you think, and not in the sense of you get to do whatever you want. That's not it at all. It's like, well, let's talk about what is it that you think. There's no bad ideas. There's no bad ideas, so there's no bad idea. And I did another show with him called Most Wanted, a musical which was Believing or Not, a musicalization of the Kunanan murder. It was really actually very very good and dark and so forth. It was too dark for people. This is before the TV movie and all that sort of stuff, and people were freaked the funk out. You get a musical about that, Yes, a wonderful musical. And of course Rosashi was the end of his murdering spree. What was the name of the show, post Wanted? Oh my God? And what year was this produced? Oh god, about fifteen years ago at Lahoya Playhouse. And it didn't transfer, It didn't go anywhere. They talked about it. We did another reading thing of it in New York. I played a drag queen named Stormy Leather. Oh God, thank you, thank you, I'm here all week. Yeah. And I had this great song called I Never Saw It Coming, which was about how you do these things in life and you never see it coming. You think you're gonna do this, you're gonna be that, You're gonna do, and then something else happens and you never see it coming. And the first line of the song was I met a bit the boy, which gives you a set up. I knew a bit the boy had it all class, money, everything and so and so forth. Very deep, very dark show. Anyway, Michael says to me. And I'm doing the thing and it's working. You know, it's doing well, I said, Michael, I keep having this feeling. I said, would you mind if I can I smoke? And this is the example of Michael Grive And he looked at me as only he kidding. I wish you would please do? I said yes, yes, And it changed the whole feel of it, because one the lighting and the cigarette smoke and the whole thing. And it gave me something to start with. And I exhaled on the first note, you know, all that kind of should you do? And it made it a thought rather than a delivery of a thought. It was a Burrows in the sandwich all over again. That's right. Hey, Hello, if I could take an inhale on this cigarette and exhale and go, I met a boy, bitch had it all. It's set up a whole different thing. You know now l a New York L, A New York L A New York St. Louis. How did the Great Ken Page decide St. Louis is where I need to be in this point in my life. Well, other than your mom, Well that's kind of I mean, if it were only you know, it was my mom, my stepdad. I have two aunts, one of whom I'm in charge of her care now she's in a facility. But I knew like that they were all getting older. And the older I got, the more I started to understand they weren't these wizard people that I thought they were when I was young. They were vulnerable. There were needs that they had that they didn't even know how to be in to address, and as they got older, they couldn't, you know, sort of jockey their way through it. It was becoming more of an issue how to dot dot dot and not, you know, to put it all on them. It was easy as easier to be here. And I did a calculation of could I still work from here? And I had initiated a show that I do called Page by Page, which is a autobiographical two hour one hand and blah blah blah, and I went all over the country with it. That's how I kept my bills paid. I took I got on the road like an old actor does, and I sang my songs and I got my check and I touched a lot of people. But I could do that from St. Louis. Of course, show business, whether it's sports, music, entertainment, the African American performer gets into the same limo. He's picked up to go to the show. He's got the star dressing room. Everything is when you're making money for them. Everything is as fluffy and as comfortable for the white or the black performer. But whoever roadblocks for you in that area getting all the time. It's a constant that I can say that, and I don't mean that to be evasive. It's a constant from the time. I think of when I started in seventy six with guys and dolls, where people would say, to my face, how dare you that'st w K's role, And I'm thinking, but I'm up there eight times a week. I'm doing it on on on, through many things. Cats. When I was casting Cats, there were people black and white who just we're not having it. The white continuency thought someone why you should of course been cast. Why did they cast me? My brothers and sisters were like, well, you've gone over to the enemy, you know what I mean. But mind you, any one of them would have certainly been happy to have the part. So it's a constant in Hollywood. It was very difficult. There were many auditions. I went on Alec where they just wanted me to just be more urban, which was a code, you know. I did one show where I played the owner of a diet company. Okay, that's funny enough. I'm a big guy. But as the progression of the rehearsals went on, they said, well, you're gonna come in eating a candy bar. I thought, come on, you know, it's funny enough, you don't have to put a candy bar. By the time we got to filming, they gave me a giant, oversized hershey bar that I was to walk in with, and those kinds of things. That's just sort of on the one side, but it it is a constant, and it continues, you know. And because I have been around a long time and I am sixty seven years old as of yesterday, you know what I'm saying. I know what's up. And people try to bullshit you with stuff that they're trying to veil, or you know, they're really being racial, or they're being prejudicial. My generation, we were the beneficiaries of the idea of we better do the right thing because people are watching. The generation before us was we can do anything we want because nobody's watching. You know, my kids are obviously going through the catalog of films and they wanted to start watching Nightmare before Christmas. And of course there's nothing more thrilling in my life than them being captivated by a performance of you as Boogie Boogie and me sitting there on a couch with my kids and going, I know him, I know him. And then my kids are gonna be like, oh please, I've never seen night there before Christmas, and I see it like six months ago, and we watch it. You know, the kids want to watch every movie twenty times, and so we watch it. It's very inventive and inside of that song, it defines your talent. You do so many things. What makes you one of the greatest performers in the history of the musical theater ever is the acting inside the singing. How did that go down? As a child? Like I said in my room, playing cast albums and being everybody on the album and so forth. That was the beginning of all that for me, because you know, for me, I wasn't seeing anything. I was only hearing it right. So when Nightmamber four, Christmas came around, I thought, oh my god, I'm gonna get to do what I've been tipping around for years. Man, do you ever, man? Do you ever? You feel that song you've got There's so much great acting inside that song, and the and the and your vocalizing. I produced you in a show one time. Yes, And I think the deepest I ever fell in love with another man, I'm a straight guy. But the deepest I've ever fell in love with the man was when he sang are you with me? We're gonna sing one phrase of this ready whispering above Tam Tammy ties in love. You sang that song and I melted in the I thought, this guy is the most beautiful soul. And you are of the people I've known in this business, one of the most beautiful souls I've ever met. My laugh here so talented, Well, that is beyond kind. I love you, and I love your talent. I'll love you back. Actor and singer Ken Paige. Betty Buckley grew up dreaming of singing her heart out and in the stuff of legend. On her first day in New York City, Betty Buckley landed a part in the Broadway musical seventeen seventy six. That early success gave her a chance to prove to herself and the folks back home she was ready. My mom had been a singer dancer growing up, and she was very good, very talented, but my father, when he married her, told her she couldn't do that anymore. My father was a lieutenant colonel in the Air Force. When I was in the fifth grade, he retired and he became a college professor. He was a really brilliant guy, but he was very opposed to show business. And my mother had this extensive cast album collection and all the great singers and everything, and she sang around that house all the time. So I was exposed to all that very early on and loved it from and she took me to see my first musical, which was Pajama Game with the original Bob Fossey choreography, when I was eleven, and when the number steam heat and I remember where I was sitting in the theater, and there was this energy that just went up to my head. What I've learned as an adult was an epiphany. You know, it's just like boom that that's what you're going to be doing for the rest of your life. So then from age eleven, I became fixated on that. What did you do with that fixation? Well, I listened Bye Bye Bertie all the time, and I told my mother, you know, I could play one of the teenagers in that, and when she was mad at me, I would run down the hall into her room and slide in on my knees and do the whole speech that the kid does to Conrad Bertie, tell us a beautiful one. Tell us how you make that glorious? Sala looked around my house for years. My mother would go, what are you gonna do you homework? I go, baby, really sublime. I mean I knew that song exactly. That was his junior high talent show that I wanted to be in. But I was really short forever. I was like four ft eight inches tall for m and I grew all at once in one summer, I thought I would be short forever, and I, you know, thought, well, maybe I'll be the first girl jockey, you know. But anyway, there was this talent show and I came home and I knew they would never ask me to be in it. But I'd studied dance with my aunts since I was three. She was a dance teacher and my grandmother, so I had these two very powerful female role models that were performers and artists. And I told my mother I wanted to do Steam Heat and the Junior High Talent Show. And my mother was like, oh, that's interesting because the guys who were the choreographer and the director of that just opened a dance studio in Fort Worth. I will call them. So she called them and said, my daughter wants to learn and Steam Heat and they said, well, can she sings? And I was like yeah, because I sung in the church choir, but they always put me in the back road and told me to blend in, you know. So I sang and they said no, no, Betty, sing as loud as you can. So I knew I had this giant voice. When did you know you had a giant voice? When? Because I was constantly singing with all the great lady singers in my bedroom to their albums and basically imitating them, and I knew I had this like sound, and but I didn't know its value because our choir teacher would always put me on the back road and really get annoyed because my voice cuts through, you know, and and I was trying so hard to sing soft, but it still has this resonant edge. So so they told me to sing as loud as I could. So I did, and I just felt unleashed, and they were like, oh my god. And they those guys made me realize I had this unique voice. So they gave me the original Fosse choreography, and I got in the Junior High Talent show and I brought the house down. They all went nuts, and from that time I was like little bitty Betty Buckley with this giant voice. Then my mother became this like huge stage mother, and she was constantly entering me and everything, and my father was going nuts about it. And then I got my first professional job when I was fifteen. I played the role of Dainty June and Gypsy at our local theater and I joined Equity and all that stuff, and then I worked there every summer, and so I had a lot of experience. By the time I got to New York. What got you to New York? Well, I I was recruited to enter the missful Worth pageant. I hated beauty pageants. I mean, I'm sorry to say all that, because I have friends and beauty pageants and I won a lot of scholarships, and it wasn't for you. Shall we say? I was this budding young feminist. I was. I was a charter subscriber to Miss magazine. In glorious Tina gave me words for all these feelings of inequity that Gloria Steine. That's a good one. I'll take that. But you didn't want that, No, I was embarrassed by it. I remember once I won the missfoot Worth pageant, because I was basically recruited to do that. And then I was in the Miss Texas pageant. I didn't win the talent competition, which was really strange. So I was runner up to Miss Texas, I think second runner up or something. But the producer of the Miss America pageant was there, and I was invited the following year to be a guest entertainer at the Miss American pageant. And this agent saw me on television singing dance and they asked me to fly to New York right after the Miss American pageant audition for them. So it was Ashley Famous Agency, which became my CM. And there was a very famous agent named Eric Shepard who I sang for these like eleven or twelve agents, and he just stood up and said signer and he walked out of the room. So this responsible agent, roder Has who went on to become a big Broadway producer. He's a really nice, wonderful guy, still a great friend. He said, well, what do you want to do? And I said I have to go back and finish college or my father will kill me. And so he he was like, okay, do that, and when you finished college, you'll come to New York. And you did finish TCU for journalism. Yeah. Why why journalism? Because my mother had been a journalist. My dad thought that being a journalist was a complimentary profession for a wife and mother to the husband. But that my purpose in life, as all young women should have, he thought, was to be married and have children. But I didn't want to do that. I wanted to go to New York and and I knew what my voice would sound like, and I knew how it would affect people. And then when I was thirty five and I was in my dressing room at the Winter Garden, they brought in my recording of memory after we'd made the record, and I heard the recording and that vision flashback of when I was thirteen, and I was like, oh, he took from age thirteen to thirty five, but there it is. So anyway, this agent kept calling me after college and asking me to come to New York and I was at that point I was really experiencing I think PTSD because I'd been with Miss America on a USO tour and Miss America and I and one other girl went into all the intensive care units and all the hospitals in Japan, and we also toured all the military bases in Korea. I was like, my dad is wrong. War is not noble. You know. My father was a real hawk and he really believed in the nobility of war and stuff. And I I came back really changed, and we were in a consistent debate about the validity of a show business career, which he thought was beneath me. And I was very confused about it all. And I was also in love. When I was in a senior with this Dallas cowboy quarterback, and he turned out to be he broke my heart. So when I came back, I thought, okay, forget my show business aspirations. Because I was a journalism major and I'd written for this newspaper quite at I even had a team page when I was in college for the Fourth Press, so I had a job there and I thought, Okay, that's it. I'm just gonna do this. And so the agent kept calling and he got me to come see this show in Dallas with my mother, which was an industrial show that Flip Wilson, the comedian was doing with a band called Your Father's Mustache. So they called me up on stage and had me sing. And the only song I knew my key and was You Made Me Love You. So I sang it and the audience went nuts, which was great. And then Rogers talks to the buyer and they offered me a job to put me in this show but to pretend I'm an audience member in all these different cities. And they offered me a lot of money. It was way more than I was being paid at the Fourth Press. So my father couldn't deny the job the money, and so he reluctantly. Let me do that. When I think of you, I think of the acting and the singing, and the acting is in the singing. Thank you. When you teach people, you teach acting or singing. I've taught for the Terry Schriber School for years and years and years, and I used to teach scenes study and song interpretation. And I was teaching these five day workshops maybe three times a year for them whenever I was in New York. And what do you teach them about how the acting influences the singing? Well, that's complicated. I was really fortunate that in seventeen seventy six I worked with all these incredible actors. They were like thirty men and two women, and they really mentored me, and they were like, set me down when I was twenty one, and I've gotten that show my first day in New York City because of this wonderful agent, Roger Hess, who got me to New York and shepherd me into that. And so I got that audition, which was amazing. So they sent me down and said, look, Betty, this is what you're good at, this is what you've got talent wise, and this is what you need to learn. Go here, go there, do this, and so I did because I loved musical theater. I love but it used to be called musical comedy, right, So there was like a dancing chorus in a scene in chorus, and you know, everything was separate, and everything was like that, you know, shove is And so I wanted I really My favorite actresses were Kim Stanley and Geraldine Page and later on General Rowlands, and I was like, oh my god, what it must be like to have that skill heavy duty dramatic act to do like really psychological portraits, to like bring raw truth to uh theater and film. And you know, I wanted to be that skilled and I wasn't. So I was really lucky that in that time period I did some Broadways shows. And then I got that TV show eight is Enough and not eight is enough. I went to my dailies and I was like, wait a minute, I get I see ten seconds of good work over there when I'm in the doorway. Why can't I bring that same quality to the same work? Right? What's wrong with me? And I was also studying with Stella Adler. I never put my work in front of her. I took her acting class. I took her script analysis class in New York, and I took her script analysis class again in l A while I was on eight Enough. I knew I wasn't a good enough actress to keep my sense of self respect or whatever, you know. If she gave me her like Syrian critiques, I wasn't ready, So that was okay. I learned a lot in the back road, taking copious notes. But that TV show was great because I really was able to see what worked and why you were on there for two seasons, three seasons? How many? For four seasons Dick Van Patten. Yeah. And then on the heels of It is Enough, I got the wonderful classic American film Tender Mercy, starring Robert Duval with a Horton foot script directed by Bruce Beresford, and I was like, oh my god, she's an alcoholic country western singing. It was like written for me. It was amazing, and I learned so much working with Duval and Wilford Brimley and Ellen Barkin. And they wouldn't let me see my dailies until I finished the job. And then they brought me in on a Saturday and had me sit down and look at my scenes. Back to back, and I sat there in that little screening room and I was like, oh, okay, I know how to do this. Now when you're there, You're in Los Angeles. Is enough? Was what the late seventies, mid seventies to eight one. So when you're out there doing you shot out in California. And when you're out there and you go from a show that I recall was a successful show that was a hit show, huge, Why don't you just stay out in California and camp out there and pursue movies and television? Well, were you just addicted to singing on Broadway? Well? I knew I was going to sing on Broadway, and I had this brilliant teacher and I was flying back to work with him every six weeks, which the heads of eight is enough mocked me for I remember this guy passed me in the parking lot and I was driving a Bundy rental wreck and he had a black Porsche and he but sleek, black hair and wore black clothes and he's like, where are you going? And I'm like, I'm going to New York for my voice. Listening goes, you have such delusion of grander Betty, you'll be lucky if you play American Mothers the rest of your life. And I was like, we'll see, Greg, will see. Isn't that horrible? They were really weird guys, I mean, and they were mean, really mean. But anyway, I survived all that, and so I got this Tender Mercy and then I got Cats that following on the heels of that. Tender Mercies was actually released in the winter that Cats opened in October. But is that what you want? To go? From Tender Mercies to the next movie. Yeah, that would have been great. But my dream was to bring like really that authenticity to the musical theater to originate, right, And so those of us who were fortunate enough to work in the musical theater, we changed the face of the musical theater in that time period, you know, with Sondheim, foss All that it evolved from musical comedy to musical theater. And Grizabella in in Cats Senior Memory was my first opportunity to bring that level of dramatic intensity to the musical theater stage. And I knew it was my turn, and I knew I was ready to do that. So, had you been offered an attractive role in a film on the heels of tender mercies. You would have passed because Kat's was what you wanted to do. That well, I think that's a weird exercise. Would I have passed? I don't know everything I'm sharing with you. I learned in retrospect and but honestly, growing up, I didn't think I was beautiful, and I aspired to the musical theater. That I met Brian de Palma and auditioned for his film Phantom of the Paradise. He didn't cast me, but several months after that he took me to dinner and gave me the book Carrie and said, read this book. I want you to play the gym teacher. Awful gym teacher. She was a great character. So that was a great film debut that he gave me the opportunity to do. And then from that movie I got eight is enough now? It is enough? Was at the time I thought I'd made a horrible miss day taking a job. Why because I was like working in a factory and in retrospect only it was where I needed to be to learn the next thing. Well, no, Cats, I mean there's not much to say about Cats. I think that hasn't been said. Obviously, it's this iconic and your performance and there's a song which we don't need to go into now that you're sing that is this kind of dream state everybody goes into when they sing this song. Good description, that's accurate, a dream stay, and I think that a lot of the music and Cats is a dream state. It's really it's just you have to suspend. It's moving art. It's like an art installation. Yeah, you can't have any preconceptions of what, just to sit there and go with it. Yeah, it's like it's it's like and when I think about that, what I think about is you work hard in the theater. People work hard. Did you have any ongoing injuries pains? Did you suffer physically from your years of working in the theater. Yeah, my knees were shot after two of Sunset Boulevard, running up and downstairs twelve times a night, and then repetitive choreography. I had a shoulder replacement in my right shoulder was replaced in September, which I'm really grateful. I did. It's and then the surgeon was great and that apparatus is great. I'm really grateful. I'm gonna have to have a knee. Probably both kneeds replaced, but I'm gonna start with one. But you have to be in a process either with a great osteopath or chiropractor or the other. Thing. I found out recently that's very disturbing to me, as I've had because of working in these dusty old theaters that they never keep clean and mold in the atmosphere and stuff. I've had repetitive bouts of bronchitis for years now and it's created a kind of asthmatic lung condition that I have to work with now, which is not nice. Singer and actor Betty Buckley be sure to follow Here's the Thing on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast when we come back. Betty Buckley talks about the challenges of playing Norma Desmond and Andrew Lloyd Webber's Sunset Boulevard. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is here's the thing. Betty Buckley worked with famed British director Trevor Nunn twice, first in Cats In two, then again in Sunset Boulevard. In in the intervening years, Betty Buckley's confidence in her own vision grew. First of all, he's a genius in the way he directed us in Cats, and the way he put all that together was really unbelievable. I mean, no other Cats company had that kind of amazing bond. We did improv workshops, theater games and at least a month of rehearsals and a couple of weeks on our hands and kneeses Cats, but just incredible Grotowski theater games and stuff like that. What does he have to offer you when you do Sunset? Well, it was interesting because they flew me to London and my audition took an hour. I've never auditioned that long in my life. They brought me in a week in advance and taught me all the songs and then told me I had to sing them in Glenn close his keys, and I was like, no, I won't be singing them in Glenn close his keys, And so the music director was a little in flams about that, and then he kept coming up on stage directing me and directing me. And I'm a meditator, so whatever they threw at me, I just stayed in my focus and did what they said. And then when I got the part, I was then back in London in this rehearsal process, and I was like, okay, So I brought in mythological references the Greek drama Medusa media and he was interested in that. And then he would listen really closely and then he say, okay, show me, and then I would show him what I meant, and gradually, over a six week rehearsal process to eight weeks, I saw him liking what I was doing right, and I and then he gave me rain to interpret it that way. You earned the right to do it your way. Yeah. And so then we opened and it was like a huge success, and I was just like, oh, yeah, you know. So then I got New York and they were very nervous because the New York Times they followed me around to do this big feature in the Arts and Leisure section, and it was really nice. This writer was really great, but the angle the editor wanted was is she a big enough star to replace Glenn Close. So they were really nervous that my interpretation because it was so vastly different from what Glenn Close had done. It was vastly different from what any of them had done, and so they got nervous. And he was very nervous Trevor None, Yeah, and I one day in rehearsal, he was very nervous and very upset, and I was like, what, what's going on? And so I started crying because I couldn't understand what he wanted. And when I was crying, he said this, this, This is what's missing. And I was I said what what? And he goes this and I was like wretched because I felt wretched. He goes wretched and I said oh, and then I just stopped crying. I said, why didn't you just tell me that? Where do you want wretched? And so I got really calm and he goes okay. And then we went through the whole script and he goes here, here, here, and here, and I'm like, okay, I said, I saw all you gotta do. Just tell me what you need now, Betty Buckley, I want to get to something else. The power of your voice and the uniqueness. Where does the power come from? Can I just share with you a moment I had with you when we were younger. We were at a big public theater benefit years ago and you were part of it too, and I sang Aquarius and it was a very powerful performance and you were watching me, and and you just like shook your head, and I was like so touched by that because I felt so seen and cherished and valued by you than you. So you ask where my power comes from. It comes from a spiritual connection, right, It's like I believe that essence, all human beings are connected. Like I have a heart that's beting that wants to love and be loved. You have a heart that's being that wants to love and be loved. At that essence, we are entirely the same. Our stories are different, but that I am no, that essence is the same. Since my since I was like twenty six years old, and I've been on this quest, thought there has to be a handbook. And I found that there's like this core body of truth in every religion, in every major philosophy on the planet. So I found meditation. While I was on Ati Is Enough. I went my ex husband Peter Flood, took me to a meditation class after my first season on It Is Enough. And then I learned that I could use meditation in my work and that there was this higher consciousness in me that was the creative force that if I made myself an instrument of that good things happened, and I was a witness about that as surely as the audience was. And I learned how to do that before Cats and before Tender Mercies, and then my work just changed and every everything opened up. And the power that I was able to access as an instrument of that consciousness, that's where it comes from. Is I'm meditating my way through that. And it's like being away on Mr. Toad's wild ride, right, because when you have a part like Norma Desmond that you can go all out, full tilt boogie to quote Janis Joplin, then this it's like holding to this mantra, holding to this like focus point and then let everything happen. That's how I work. You are on island of your own in terms of your talent and your uniqueness. It's just as unbelievable. It's unbelievable you, Alec. I feel humbled by your compliment. Thank you well. Listen, um, we interviewed Ken, my old friend Ken, and the thing the two of you also have in common other than cats, as you both went home can move back to St. Louis. Yeah, he moved back to take care of his mom, isn't he the greatest guy ever. He and I had addressing room right next to each other at the Winter Garden, so we were really close pals. He's a lovely, lovely man. Well, let me ask you this one more question, which is, if I'm on iTunes, which of these albums would you say is not your favorite? Which one you're particularly fond of? Ghost Like the two bum Burnett produced is a beautiful album that's very haunting, and the Tibon and I grew up together and forth and he made the first recording of my voice when we were both like seventeen, but so ghost Light. And then my recent stuff that I really love is story songs and hope. Thank you for taking the time to do this. My love to you, Aleck, thank you, good luck down there. I adore you and I'm so happy to connect with you. Thank you, My thanks to Broadway legends Betty Buckley and Ken Paige. I'll leave you with Betty singing as if we never said goodbye from Sunset Boulevard Live at Carnegie Hall. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is Here's the thing from my Heart Radio, The Whispered Conversations, an old cloud of so much to say, not just today, bottle well, wellness well, the body in the making. Guess everything's as if never sad boy. Everything says, if we never said good bye, we taught the world you waste too dream