This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Hear's the Thing from iHeart Radio. In January, I was at the Sundance Film Festival and attended the premiere of The Dissident. The Dissident was directed by Brian Fogel, winner of the Best Documentary Oscar for his film Icarus. The Dissident recounts the murder of Jamal Koshoji, a Saudi journalist who fled his home country after crackdowns on descent in two thousand seventeen. He lived in self exile in the United States, where he wrote columns for The Washington Post that were often critical of the Saudi government. The details of Koshoji's demise are gruesome, to say the least. Turkish officials and the CIA have concluded that Koshoji was killed and dismembered inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. Film follows the investigation into his murder, going so far as to implicate the highest ranks of the Saudi government, including Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salmon. Prior to the Sundance screening, I was introduced to a Turkish woman backstage. We spoke briefly before taking our seats in the theater. I did not catch her name. Only when the lights came up and Fogel called to the stage because Shoe's fiancee, a human rights activist who is prominent in the film, did I realize she was the woman I had the very hasty chat with backstage. My guest today is that woman Hatija jens After the screening, Jenkis was descended upon by admirers, and thus the opportunity to speak with her again did not arise until today. With the opportunity to speak with Hatija once more as she joined me from Turkey, I wanted to learn about her history with and how they first crossed paths. I met him in Istanbul in two thousand eighteen. I knew him as an academic, as a writer, as a follow in the Gulf studies, and he's a very known journalist in the Middle East or around the world. I was watching him when he gives interviews on the televisions. There is a no more very famous writer or journalists from Middle East. Jamal one of the most popular and well known person as a foreign policies and defending democracy and human rights and the other values that we are talking about and he was a very very open mind and the different from others. But when I start for him closely, it was at the beginning of the arts being I met him in the conference. It was may. I think he talks about the Gulf countries, the situation, about the crisis, and you know, human rights and there's a lot of problems and issues that you cannot talk about the GCC countries so very easily. So Jamal was out of South Arabia at that time. He attended the conference from the States, but I wasn't aware all of the information. Very closely, you were not aware of his status with the saudiast meaning when you met him in two thousand and eighteen, he already was in self exile. He was villainized by them in two thousand seventeen. So when you met him physically, when you first, he was in the thick of it. Yes, But I knew that he has moved to United States, but I wasn't able to understand the whole these details. I expected that he moved for a time for some period, because I couldn't understand how someone like Jamal left his country forever. You know, all this information I received afterwards from Jamal when relations start between us. I made him in the conference and as a listener. I did not give any speech in that conference. And after the conference break time, I said hello, I introduced myself and I said, I am studied about Oman and I'm interested in golf countries more than four years. And of course we were talking in Arabic, and he interested in the sort of these details that I know about the Gulf. It was like electricity between two people. It wasn't a conversation just between men and women. It was more than that. I can say. It was a very warm conversation. I'm quite surprised that man like Jamal was very humble to listen to people like me, a very young researcher, and he give me a chance to introduce myself and to talk to him. And I thought, if you have some time, can I do like a short interview or talk with you more. And he didn't reply. He didn't response the questions, so I said it's okay, I shouldn't ask more than this, and I said I will be around and if you like to talk to me, I will be really happy. And then I left him. It was a break time for coffee or something, and then I started following the other sections and then talking with my friends and the other young journalists and researchers, and he came and said, hello, how are you. I want to talk to you if you have time, and then we start talking about his experience, the last moment that he had. I asked some questions and he applied and he even allowed me to record this. So it was the beginning of my relation with Jamal. And we had a good conversation like half an hour or forty minutes, and then he said, very nice to meet you. He felt a very comfortable with me that he wants to talk about more. But what I'm wondering though, is knowing, as we do in the timeline that he was already, you know, in a lot of trouble with these people when he met you. Was he concerned when you came into his life? Was he concerned about you? And were you concerned about you? Did you think you might be in danger? Actually I wasn't aware of all the danger of his life in that level. Even Jamal didn't knew that this people become like enemies to him, try to put in jail or arrest him. He didn't mention at all. You know if you have a relation with someone like Jamal and that level, you cannot ask any question very easily, do not hurt him. I was very careful to understand demands, feelings and emotions tuition because he was really really lonely that time. I was really careful to not ask any question that I want to ask. I just one time, remember ask him, do you think that I have to know some sort of information or kind of things that I have to know now before the marriage because we were busy with buying home or some sort of things for for house in that period. I asked this question, and then he asked me why you are asking this, and I said, because I do not want to get in surprised after the marriage that you didn't tell me something like the big issues in your life, or if you have any points that you hid me. I don't know. I just asked the question. It seems that what you're saying is that neither one of you was really fully aware. Even he wasn't fully aware of the lengths these people were willing to go to get him. Yes, he did not know anything kind of dis thing, because I remember he once told me his close friends, all of them in prisons right now. He was very, very worrying about them, very sad about them. He was crying every day about their stories. So when you're in the Saudi consulate, when he goes in, and you're there in Istanbul at that point in your life, he had been forced to make the painful choice to leave his wife and his family in Saudi. But he was going to the consulate to get proof that he was no longer married to his first wife in order to be able to marry you. I mean he was working for the Washington Post with the two of you planning to stay in Turkey. What was your plan once you were married? Where were you going to live? He said to me, My relation with my country, with my government is not that much bad that I have to worry about. He said to me that. He said, Look, I have worked to my country more than thirty five years or forty years. I am a very well known journalist. I am not criticizing Saudi. That's bad. I just advised them. I couldn't do that in Saudi Arabia. Now I am doing that in d C. He believed that there is a good relation between him and Saudi because I am not sody I am not living in Saudi Arabia. You say that he didn't live in a general state of fear of what the Saudis would do to him. I guess it never crossed his mind that this was possible. The first visiting, me and him, we went to Any eight September before the second visiting, and he came out like forty five minutes or something like that, and he said to me, okay, it went very well. He was very happy when he came out. He said, they gave me coffee tea and asked about me my marriage, and they encouraged me. They asked me some questions and we have chat. He said to me, I am really happy that I faced the very very nice picture of my country that I was worrying about. He said to me that, and he also sent some messages to his friends and shared these his happiness. It's not just me and yet. And he enters the building. He hands you to cell phones and tells you if anything happens, you should contact Airnagon himself. No, it wasn't true. Actually, he told me I don't want to go to consulate. I don't want to face this country and I am outside of Saudi and maybe they will question me, they will get me on pressure or some kind of these things. I don't want to face it. But there is no way to get married with you, and I want you like my wife. He said to me to saw the consulate. They are asking the phones out of the consulate, I mean out of the offices inside the consulate, and they are keeping them like in a box inside the concert. And I don't trust in this situation, and I want you keep them because lots of things in his phones, and you know, messages that he don't want to share with these people. And then he said, put this and he went in. He didn't tell me call anyone or do some calls with any kind of people or something like that. I just said to him, don't worry. I'm here if something happens. So when you win in in the first visit and you go in to answer some questions and everything seems normal, you know, everything seems like it's just functioning normally. They they've got a job to do when you're going to answer these questions. So when you go back the second time, the faithful time, when you go then why didn't you go into the building with him? Then why did he want you to wait outside the rules of the consulate. They did not allow to go inside with him. And then I started waiting. It went like one hour, it is okay, two hours, yes, you can say okay. But after two hours, because it was a very simple conversation the first time, and he said to me it was a very nice conversation, and I thought it might be like a more conversation questions. You know, the other people talks a lot, so I don't know. After two hours, I checked the time when the consulate close and it was like three forty something like that, or maybe four, And of course I was waiting a front of door. Jamal did not came, and I was relaxed and and I felt that not can happen. You know, he's in there and hours go by. It's one thing to come out to him and say, oh, he's not in the building. He left, someone took him whatever. It's another thing for them to tell you exactly what happened. When did you find out exactly what happened to him? I called the Consulate to explain myself. I am her Teag Turkey citizen. I'm waiting out of door. Jamal did not come. Where is Jamal. And then he said who you are and then where are you right now? And then he came out and checked on me and told me there is no one inside. And I started worrying. It was a very huge scared inside me. I made calls with people, lots of people with a very worrying situation, and I also called with my friends to come to stay with me there because I felt there's something going on. And so the situation at that time, I learned from guy that came from Sudi consulate and then told me by saying there is no one inside the consulate, there is no Jamal. Jamal is not inside. He did not give me more information and he went back and then I started waiting. There so no Istanbul or Turkish police sat you down and said they did not tell me. I asked many times during the investigations, because when police question you, they evegased me as well as a close person. So I asked them and I also asked the head of the court when they start investigation, and they said to me, we are searching still, we are trying to understand. They said to me, we still do some formation are not clean or some kind of these responses that I received from the people, and also this gave me a kind of hope. You know, there wasn't any declaration or any clear message that I received from the official one, so I told, okay, let's see because you know, it is a huge like a nightmare or tragedy you cannot believe, and I did not able to understand what's going on. I still very big shot and not the word that I was leaving game. I am a not dead person before Jamal Patija Jenis. If you appreciate conversations with international activists, check out my episode with the director of the Crisis and Conflict Division at Human Rights Watch, Ida Sawyer. They're different kinds of chronic human rights abuses in different regions, but I think in in countries where you have more authoritarian governments, where you don't have freedom of expression, freedom of the press, and there's crackdowns on political opposition leaders, journalist activists, that's where we see some of the worst abuses, and that can sometimes be related to abuses linked to access to healthcare, education and those sorts of human rights as well. To hear more of my conversation with Ida Sawyer, go to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Tiger shares her reaction to seeing the tragedy of Jamal Kao's death brought to life in The Dissident. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Director Brian Fogel's filmed The Dissident directly implicates Mohammed Ben Salmon's involvement in the murder of Jamal ka Shoji. It is perhaps one of the reasons the film struggled initially to find a buyer. I wanted to know how he Tiger came to meet Brian Focal. He reached me out at the time that we have learned from Saldi that Jamal has been killed, and it was a huge waves around toward so it's whether big and huge shock for everyone, and everyone also tried to reach me out to make an interview. One of them was Brian. He phoned me and he asked me to come to Istanbul to visit me and he wants to make a film for tomorrow. But after that phone call, Champagne he has called me as well and then he came before Brian visited me in Istanbul and then we met and we talked. He was a very very touch with this story, and he cried and I cried, and we talked and it was a very unique time. And then Brian came and then he did not mention lots of things about the detail. And then I listened to Brian and I decided to with Brian because I listened him very carefully, and he said, look, this my plan, and I will do that during the year, and I will start that time and I'll finished that time, and I have a film about the staff in Russia, the Acarus. And then I have watched also his film, and I said, look, it is something that it's serious. I have to make a decision between them. And also they collaborated. Yeah, they worked together to produce the film. Brian was professional for these details. So it went very well. When you finally see the film, what was that like? What was your reaction? My reaction was very interesting that I cried a lot. I was in Italy. I watched it before sentence because according to our agreement, that was a condition that I have to see before release. So I watched there. I didn't believe that all these things happened again and again. It was the first time to see myself, which the the real tragedy, and then you are a part of this tragedy in reality, not in your mind or in my mind, in my heart. Now I'm seeing what happened to me to jama and I started to realize how a huge things happened and happening in my life, how I feel deal with this, how I will start living like any normal person. And I start to realize that my life has changed one or more now at the time of the event, at the time of his murder in the consulate, the film depicts certain police detectives what have you, whether they're in the city of Istanbul or their National police figures in Turkey itself. Did you trust the Istanbul and the Turkish police authorities with the work that they did. Did you feel you that they were genuinely trying to solve the case? Yes, they did. I think in this case they did a great job because they were in a very big shock like me. I remember the time that questioning me to understand because no one knows about tomorrow. By the way, in Turkey, the normal people in the country, they try to understand why did this happen in Turkey? In Istanbul, they try to understand what's going on. So his children eventually at some point inform the Saudi government through whatever channels that they don't want these people that were arrested. They want them pardoned and they don't want them to face the death penalty. What were your feelings about that? Were you disappointed? I understand. I tried to understand more and more. It wasn't easy. At the time that they made a deficion. I decided to not make any comment why because it is not my point that I fight with his family. I mean Jamal's family. They are not my enemies, and they decided to forgive the criminals, in my opinion, not because they want. They forced the biggest challenges in their life and they made this decision for their life. I have to respect why because I am not sorry, I am not living in Saudi Arabia, and also they are Jamal's family. There is no point to fight with these people. And if I meet them, I am sure I will become a very close friend of them. How many children does he have? Total? Four, two sons, two daughters. Me and Jamal and Jama's son went to cafe and launched together dinner together. I take them to do best restaurant in the Bosphorus and v spent a very, very wonderful time together before he's killed, had teacher Jenkis. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the thing on the I Heart radio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back at tjer Jenkis shares who Jamal Kashi really was. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. After the assassination of Jamal Kashoji, then President Trump went against his own intelligence community, saying he believed Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed ben Solomon was not involved in the killing. Recently, the Crown Prince was grant immunity as sitting head of government by the Biden administration, and her teacher's lawsuit against him was then dismissed. To date, Jenkis has appeared before the u N, the European Parliament, and a tribunal at the Hague calling for justice for her fiancee. I was curious if she felt these international organizations would continue the fight for accountability. Actually, at the beginning they gave me some sort of hope by words, but at the moment, what I am doing or what I'm planning to do is we are working on a progress that trying to understand from jurisdiction, international jurisdiction that which country that we can do something more Trump for that time it was president and he has stayed with NBS directly without any accusing and he in sure that he will not do any kind of moment against him, and he tried to defend him in a very interesting ways. So after this position, what I understand from the politics, if the United States did not sign that it will do something and then the others follows them to the United States has typically a leadership role among people in the international community, and they've abandoned that role. Now in this case, yes, they did follow the United States very closely and very directly. And because of this, I start understand from the European Parliament and the United Nations, which I gave more than one time speech and I asked more questions and investigation, they did not take any sort of serious action after the report. Even the United Asian did not take any step against the criminals. So what would I do. In Turkey, they also have finished and closed the case and sent to Saudi Arabia. And then you know also say it gave the criminals the immunity. So the plan is now that I have to carry on this mission and vision that keep Jamal's nay alive. So you haven't given up, that's what you're saying. You have not given up. I need to get the truth. I need it because still we don't know Jamal's body were. We still don't know why and what happened to him, why they killed Jamal. I thought The Dissident was a wonderful film and and a highly disturbing one. When you watch the film, he is the subject, and I was overcome really by how charming he was, how funny he was. He had this little, ry, little look on his face. He was an unusually bright and clever man. But when you watch the film, you kind of become very warm towards the case, and you really really he wins you over in your mind when you tell people who was Jamal to you? In general, you cannot find easily a kind man. You can find rich man, you can find handsome men, who can find you know, famous man. For example, Jamal was a very generous person. He was a kind and humble person. A good listener, and he understands woman and how they think about man's and talking very few words but meaning words and try to understand from the behaves, not from the words that I was looking for. And Jamal was a man who understand from the eyes, from the feelings, from the hearts, and from the behind of words and behind your beauty and behind your feelings. He said, the most important point in life is to understand someone who loves you. And he said, you I ever met in my life, any person like you that you loved me, very different from any woman I met. So I understand him from inside, not from outside. I met Jamal as a man in reality, not as a journalist. You are talking about someone who lost everything. He left his country, he left his family, his children, his wife's, his famous city, and you know, started over. And he he's not happy with that. He made this decision because of the situation. But he far himself very lonely and very weak at the same time. But he cannot explain this part to people to understand him. So the situation was very unique. I can say that one time he asked me he was worrying about my feature a little bit, and then he asked me many times, are you happy with me? Or are you scared? I said, it's okay, because I want to live with you whenever I can or you can. I want to share with my life with you whenever you are alive in this life. He just touched my soul and also at the same time, I thought his soul because I did not got married with someone famous. He wasn't famous with me. He wasn't that rich man with me. He was a very, very honest and open and humble and smiling person. With someone like me. It was like the big present from God that you cannot expect that much peak because when he came, he covered the whole things that I lost in my life. Obviously, I don't want to use a cliche like the love story between the two of you, but as two people who meet each other under these circumstances, and you only knew him very briefly, you only knew him for a matter of months before the horrible event occurred. The other tragedy of this story is how you felt about each other and how you came together. That's a huge part of the story for me, as for a man who had to abandon his family, didn't want to do that and found someone like you. You're obviously a incredibly bright, educated, engaged person, and the two of you come together and then this terrible thing happens. That's among the saddest parts of the story of all. Just the last word that I want to say. If you saw want asked me, what did you understand from your story or what did you face through this story that you face it in your life. I have achieved the two things, the personal things and general things. The personal things from Jamal, The first one that any person in the life the need is a safety. Jamal left his country because of safety, and without love, no one can leave. Jamal was needed the real love when he left his country. The safety, love and faith. You have to have a faith or goal in this life. It is from the personal side that we have to keep all these the treatings in our life, our safety, our loves, and our goals. I am grateful to you for doing this. I really really am. Thank you. M H my thanks to human rights activist at t J Jenkis. This episode was recorded at c DM Studios in New York City. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeice and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio

This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Hear's the Thing from iHeart Radio. In January, I was at the Sundance Film Festival and attended the premiere of The Dissident. The Dissident was directed by Brian Fogel, winner of the Best Documentary Oscar for his film Icarus. The Dissident recounts the murder of Jamal Koshoji, a Saudi journalist who fled his home country after crackdowns on descent in two thousand seventeen. He lived in self exile in the United States, where he wrote columns for The Washington Post that were often critical of the Saudi government. The details of Koshoji's demise are gruesome, to say the least. Turkish officials and the CIA have concluded that Koshoji was killed and dismembered inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. Film follows the investigation into his murder, going so far as to implicate the highest ranks of the Saudi government, including Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salmon. Prior to the Sundance screening, I was introduced to a Turkish woman backstage. We spoke briefly before taking our seats in the theater. I did not catch her name. Only when the lights came up and Fogel called to the stage because Shoe's fiancee, a human rights activist who is prominent in the film, did I realize she was the woman I had the very hasty chat with backstage. My guest today is that woman Hatija jens After the screening, Jenkis was descended upon by admirers, and thus the opportunity to speak with her again did not arise until today. With the opportunity to speak with Hatija once more as she joined me from Turkey, I wanted to learn about her history with and how they first crossed paths. I met him in Istanbul in two thousand eighteen. I knew him as an academic, as a writer, as a follow in the Gulf studies, and he's a very known journalist in the Middle East or around the world. I was watching him when he gives interviews on the televisions. There is a no more very famous writer or journalists from Middle East. Jamal one of the most popular and well known person as a foreign policies and defending democracy and human rights and the other values that we are talking about and he was a very very open mind and the different from others. But when I start for him closely, it was at the beginning of the arts being I met him in the conference. It was may. I think he talks about the Gulf countries, the situation, about the crisis, and you know, human rights and there's a lot of problems and issues that you cannot talk about the GCC countries so very easily. So Jamal was out of South Arabia at that time. He attended the conference from the States, but I wasn't aware all of the information. Very closely, you were not aware of his status with the saudiast meaning when you met him in two thousand and eighteen, he already was in self exile. He was villainized by them in two thousand seventeen. So when you met him physically, when you first, he was in the thick of it. Yes, But I knew that he has moved to United States, but I wasn't able to understand the whole these details. I expected that he moved for a time for some period, because I couldn't understand how someone like Jamal left his country forever. You know, all this information I received afterwards from Jamal when relations start between us. I made him in the conference and as a listener. I did not give any speech in that conference. And after the conference break time, I said hello, I introduced myself and I said, I am studied about Oman and I'm interested in golf countries more than four years. And of course we were talking in Arabic, and he interested in the sort of these details that I know about the Gulf. It was like electricity between two people. It wasn't a conversation just between men and women. It was more than that. I can say. It was a very warm conversation. I'm quite surprised that man like Jamal was very humble to listen to people like me, a very young researcher, and he give me a chance to introduce myself and to talk to him. And I thought, if you have some time, can I do like a short interview or talk with you more. And he didn't reply. He didn't response the questions, so I said it's okay, I shouldn't ask more than this, and I said I will be around and if you like to talk to me, I will be really happy. And then I left him. It was a break time for coffee or something, and then I started following the other sections and then talking with my friends and the other young journalists and researchers, and he came and said, hello, how are you. I want to talk to you if you have time, and then we start talking about his experience, the last moment that he had. I asked some questions and he applied and he even allowed me to record this. So it was the beginning of my relation with Jamal. And we had a good conversation like half an hour or forty minutes, and then he said, very nice to meet you. He felt a very comfortable with me that he wants to talk about more. But what I'm wondering though, is knowing, as we do in the timeline that he was already, you know, in a lot of trouble with these people when he met you. Was he concerned when you came into his life? Was he concerned about you? And were you concerned about you? Did you think you might be in danger? Actually I wasn't aware of all the danger of his life in that level. Even Jamal didn't knew that this people become like enemies to him, try to put in jail or arrest him. He didn't mention at all. You know if you have a relation with someone like Jamal and that level, you cannot ask any question very easily, do not hurt him. I was very careful to understand demands, feelings and emotions tuition because he was really really lonely that time. I was really careful to not ask any question that I want to ask. I just one time, remember ask him, do you think that I have to know some sort of information or kind of things that I have to know now before the marriage because we were busy with buying home or some sort of things for for house in that period. I asked this question, and then he asked me why you are asking this, and I said, because I do not want to get in surprised after the marriage that you didn't tell me something like the big issues in your life, or if you have any points that you hid me. I don't know. I just asked the question. It seems that what you're saying is that neither one of you was really fully aware. Even he wasn't fully aware of the lengths these people were willing to go to get him. Yes, he did not know anything kind of dis thing, because I remember he once told me his close friends, all of them in prisons right now. He was very, very worrying about them, very sad about them. He was crying every day about their stories. So when you're in the Saudi consulate, when he goes in, and you're there in Istanbul at that point in your life, he had been forced to make the painful choice to leave his wife and his family in Saudi. But he was going to the consulate to get proof that he was no longer married to his first wife in order to be able to marry you. I mean he was working for the Washington Post with the two of you planning to stay in Turkey. What was your plan once you were married? Where were you going to live? He said to me, My relation with my country, with my government is not that much bad that I have to worry about. He said to me that. He said, Look, I have worked to my country more than thirty five years or forty years. I am a very well known journalist. I am not criticizing Saudi. That's bad. I just advised them. I couldn't do that in Saudi Arabia. Now I am doing that in d C. He believed that there is a good relation between him and Saudi because I am not sody I am not living in Saudi Arabia. You say that he didn't live in a general state of fear of what the Saudis would do to him. I guess it never crossed his mind that this was possible. The first visiting, me and him, we went to Any eight September before the second visiting, and he came out like forty five minutes or something like that, and he said to me, okay, it went very well. He was very happy when he came out. He said, they gave me coffee tea and asked about me my marriage, and they encouraged me. They asked me some questions and we have chat. He said to me, I am really happy that I faced the very very nice picture of my country that I was worrying about. He said to me that, and he also sent some messages to his friends and shared these his happiness. It's not just me and yet. And he enters the building. He hands you to cell phones and tells you if anything happens, you should contact Airnagon himself. No, it wasn't true. Actually, he told me I don't want to go to consulate. I don't want to face this country and I am outside of Saudi and maybe they will question me, they will get me on pressure or some kind of these things. I don't want to face it. But there is no way to get married with you, and I want you like my wife. He said to me to saw the consulate. They are asking the phones out of the consulate, I mean out of the offices inside the consulate, and they are keeping them like in a box inside the concert. And I don't trust in this situation, and I want you keep them because lots of things in his phones, and you know, messages that he don't want to share with these people. And then he said, put this and he went in. He didn't tell me call anyone or do some calls with any kind of people or something like that. I just said to him, don't worry. I'm here if something happens. So when you win in in the first visit and you go in to answer some questions and everything seems normal, you know, everything seems like it's just functioning normally. They they've got a job to do when you're going to answer these questions. So when you go back the second time, the faithful time, when you go then why didn't you go into the building with him? Then why did he want you to wait outside the rules of the consulate. They did not allow to go inside with him. And then I started waiting. It went like one hour, it is okay, two hours, yes, you can say okay. But after two hours, because it was a very simple conversation the first time, and he said to me it was a very nice conversation, and I thought it might be like a more conversation questions. You know, the other people talks a lot, so I don't know. After two hours, I checked the time when the consulate close and it was like three forty something like that, or maybe four, And of course I was waiting a front of door. Jamal did not came, and I was relaxed and and I felt that not can happen. You know, he's in there and hours go by. It's one thing to come out to him and say, oh, he's not in the building. He left, someone took him whatever. It's another thing for them to tell you exactly what happened. When did you find out exactly what happened to him? I called the Consulate to explain myself. I am her Teag Turkey citizen. I'm waiting out of door. Jamal did not come. Where is Jamal. And then he said who you are and then where are you right now? And then he came out and checked on me and told me there is no one inside. And I started worrying. It was a very huge scared inside me. I made calls with people, lots of people with a very worrying situation, and I also called with my friends to come to stay with me there because I felt there's something going on. And so the situation at that time, I learned from guy that came from Sudi consulate and then told me by saying there is no one inside the consulate, there is no Jamal. Jamal is not inside. He did not give me more information and he went back and then I started waiting. There so no Istanbul or Turkish police sat you down and said they did not tell me. I asked many times during the investigations, because when police question you, they evegased me as well as a close person. So I asked them and I also asked the head of the court when they start investigation, and they said to me, we are searching still, we are trying to understand. They said to me, we still do some formation are not clean or some kind of these responses that I received from the people, and also this gave me a kind of hope. You know, there wasn't any declaration or any clear message that I received from the official one, so I told, okay, let's see because you know, it is a huge like a nightmare or tragedy you cannot believe, and I did not able to understand what's going on. I still very big shot and not the word that I was leaving game. I am a not dead person before Jamal Patija Jenis. If you appreciate conversations with international activists, check out my episode with the director of the Crisis and Conflict Division at Human Rights Watch, Ida Sawyer. They're different kinds of chronic human rights abuses in different regions, but I think in in countries where you have more authoritarian governments, where you don't have freedom of expression, freedom of the press, and there's crackdowns on political opposition leaders, journalist activists, that's where we see some of the worst abuses, and that can sometimes be related to abuses linked to access to healthcare, education and those sorts of human rights as well. To hear more of my conversation with Ida Sawyer, go to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Tiger shares her reaction to seeing the tragedy of Jamal Kao's death brought to life in The Dissident. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Director Brian Fogel's filmed The Dissident directly implicates Mohammed Ben Salmon's involvement in the murder of Jamal ka Shoji. It is perhaps one of the reasons the film struggled initially to find a buyer. I wanted to know how he Tiger came to meet Brian Focal. He reached me out at the time that we have learned from Saldi that Jamal has been killed, and it was a huge waves around toward so it's whether big and huge shock for everyone, and everyone also tried to reach me out to make an interview. One of them was Brian. He phoned me and he asked me to come to Istanbul to visit me and he wants to make a film for tomorrow. But after that phone call, Champagne he has called me as well and then he came before Brian visited me in Istanbul and then we met and we talked. He was a very very touch with this story, and he cried and I cried, and we talked and it was a very unique time. And then Brian came and then he did not mention lots of things about the detail. And then I listened to Brian and I decided to with Brian because I listened him very carefully, and he said, look, this my plan, and I will do that during the year, and I will start that time and I'll finished that time, and I have a film about the staff in Russia, the Acarus. And then I have watched also his film, and I said, look, it is something that it's serious. I have to make a decision between them. And also they collaborated. Yeah, they worked together to produce the film. Brian was professional for these details. So it went very well. When you finally see the film, what was that like? What was your reaction? My reaction was very interesting that I cried a lot. I was in Italy. I watched it before sentence because according to our agreement, that was a condition that I have to see before release. So I watched there. I didn't believe that all these things happened again and again. It was the first time to see myself, which the the real tragedy, and then you are a part of this tragedy in reality, not in your mind or in my mind, in my heart. Now I'm seeing what happened to me to jama and I started to realize how a huge things happened and happening in my life, how I feel deal with this, how I will start living like any normal person. And I start to realize that my life has changed one or more now at the time of the event, at the time of his murder in the consulate, the film depicts certain police detectives what have you, whether they're in the city of Istanbul or their National police figures in Turkey itself. Did you trust the Istanbul and the Turkish police authorities with the work that they did. Did you feel you that they were genuinely trying to solve the case? Yes, they did. I think in this case they did a great job because they were in a very big shock like me. I remember the time that questioning me to understand because no one knows about tomorrow. By the way, in Turkey, the normal people in the country, they try to understand why did this happen in Turkey? In Istanbul, they try to understand what's going on. So his children eventually at some point inform the Saudi government through whatever channels that they don't want these people that were arrested. They want them pardoned and they don't want them to face the death penalty. What were your feelings about that? Were you disappointed? I understand. I tried to understand more and more. It wasn't easy. At the time that they made a deficion. I decided to not make any comment why because it is not my point that I fight with his family. I mean Jamal's family. They are not my enemies, and they decided to forgive the criminals, in my opinion, not because they want. They forced the biggest challenges in their life and they made this decision for their life. I have to respect why because I am not sorry, I am not living in Saudi Arabia, and also they are Jamal's family. There is no point to fight with these people. And if I meet them, I am sure I will become a very close friend of them. How many children does he have? Total? Four, two sons, two daughters. Me and Jamal and Jama's son went to cafe and launched together dinner together. I take them to do best restaurant in the Bosphorus and v spent a very, very wonderful time together before he's killed, had teacher Jenkis. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the thing on the I Heart radio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back at tjer Jenkis shares who Jamal Kashi really was. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. After the assassination of Jamal Kashoji, then President Trump went against his own intelligence community, saying he believed Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed ben Solomon was not involved in the killing. Recently, the Crown Prince was grant immunity as sitting head of government by the Biden administration, and her teacher's lawsuit against him was then dismissed. To date, Jenkis has appeared before the u N, the European Parliament, and a tribunal at the Hague calling for justice for her fiancee. I was curious if she felt these international organizations would continue the fight for accountability. Actually, at the beginning they gave me some sort of hope by words, but at the moment, what I am doing or what I'm planning to do is we are working on a progress that trying to understand from jurisdiction, international jurisdiction that which country that we can do something more Trump for that time it was president and he has stayed with NBS directly without any accusing and he in sure that he will not do any kind of moment against him, and he tried to defend him in a very interesting ways. So after this position, what I understand from the politics, if the United States did not sign that it will do something and then the others follows them to the United States has typically a leadership role among people in the international community, and they've abandoned that role. Now in this case, yes, they did follow the United States very closely and very directly. And because of this, I start understand from the European Parliament and the United Nations, which I gave more than one time speech and I asked more questions and investigation, they did not take any sort of serious action after the report. Even the United Asian did not take any step against the criminals. So what would I do. In Turkey, they also have finished and closed the case and sent to Saudi Arabia. And then you know also say it gave the criminals the immunity. So the plan is now that I have to carry on this mission and vision that keep Jamal's nay alive. So you haven't given up, that's what you're saying. You have not given up. I need to get the truth. I need it because still we don't know Jamal's body were. We still don't know why and what happened to him, why they killed Jamal. I thought The Dissident was a wonderful film and and a highly disturbing one. When you watch the film, he is the subject, and I was overcome really by how charming he was, how funny he was. He had this little, ry, little look on his face. He was an unusually bright and clever man. But when you watch the film, you kind of become very warm towards the case, and you really really he wins you over in your mind when you tell people who was Jamal to you? In general, you cannot find easily a kind man. You can find rich man, you can find handsome men, who can find you know, famous man. For example, Jamal was a very generous person. He was a kind and humble person. A good listener, and he understands woman and how they think about man's and talking very few words but meaning words and try to understand from the behaves, not from the words that I was looking for. And Jamal was a man who understand from the eyes, from the feelings, from the hearts, and from the behind of words and behind your beauty and behind your feelings. He said, the most important point in life is to understand someone who loves you. And he said, you I ever met in my life, any person like you that you loved me, very different from any woman I met. So I understand him from inside, not from outside. I met Jamal as a man in reality, not as a journalist. You are talking about someone who lost everything. He left his country, he left his family, his children, his wife's, his famous city, and you know, started over. And he he's not happy with that. He made this decision because of the situation. But he far himself very lonely and very weak at the same time. But he cannot explain this part to people to understand him. So the situation was very unique. I can say that one time he asked me he was worrying about my feature a little bit, and then he asked me many times, are you happy with me? Or are you scared? I said, it's okay, because I want to live with you whenever I can or you can. I want to share with my life with you whenever you are alive in this life. He just touched my soul and also at the same time, I thought his soul because I did not got married with someone famous. He wasn't famous with me. He wasn't that rich man with me. He was a very, very honest and open and humble and smiling person. With someone like me. It was like the big present from God that you cannot expect that much peak because when he came, he covered the whole things that I lost in my life. Obviously, I don't want to use a cliche like the love story between the two of you, but as two people who meet each other under these circumstances, and you only knew him very briefly, you only knew him for a matter of months before the horrible event occurred. The other tragedy of this story is how you felt about each other and how you came together. That's a huge part of the story for me, as for a man who had to abandon his family, didn't want to do that and found someone like you. You're obviously a incredibly bright, educated, engaged person, and the two of you come together and then this terrible thing happens. That's among the saddest parts of the story of all. Just the last word that I want to say. If you saw want asked me, what did you understand from your story or what did you face through this story that you face it in your life. I have achieved the two things, the personal things and general things. The personal things from Jamal, The first one that any person in the life the need is a safety. Jamal left his country because of safety, and without love, no one can leave. Jamal was needed the real love when he left his country. The safety, love and faith. You have to have a faith or goal in this life. It is from the personal side that we have to keep all these the treatings in our life, our safety, our loves, and our goals. I am grateful to you for doing this. I really really am. Thank you. M H my thanks to human rights activist at t J Jenkis. This episode was recorded at c DM Studios in New York City. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeice and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio