Hey, it's Alec Baldwin here. Before we launch our next season of Here's the Thing at iHeartRadio in January, I thought I'd play some of my favorite shows from the archives. Few people were deeper into the Watergate cover up than President Nixon's White House Council John Dene then he flipped. He was a star witness for the Congressional investigation, and while some Watergate conspirators had religious conversions in prison, Dean left prison with a commitment to teaching in classrooms and beyond the lessons of the scandal and advocating for better government. I recently had the opportunity to talk with him in front of a live audience at NYU's Skirball Center. Tell us the jobs you had in government prior to your becoming count to the President.

Hey, it's Alec Baldwin here. Before we launch our next season of Here's the Thing at iHeartRadio in January, I thought I'd play some of my favorite shows from the archives. Few people were deeper into the Watergate cover up than President Nixon's White House Council John Dene then he flipped. He was a star witness for the Congressional investigation, and while some Watergate conspirators had religious conversions in prison, Dean left prison with a commitment to teaching in classrooms and beyond the lessons of the scandal and advocating for better government. I recently had the opportunity to talk with him in front of a live audience at NYU's Skirball Center. Tell us the jobs you had in government prior to your becoming count to the President.

I was at the House Judiciary Committee. It was my first job in government, and from there I went to a commission that was revising the federal Criminal Code. I didn't study enough while they were working on I have a question about it. I then went from there to become the Associate Deputy Attorney General in the Nixon administration at the outset of the administration, and while there, working in Justice. I was invited to become counsel of the president.

I was at the House Judiciary Committee. It was my first job in government, and from there I went to a commission that was revising the federal Criminal Code. I didn't study enough while they were working on I have a question about it. I then went from there to become the Associate Deputy Attorney General in the Nixon administration at the outset of the administration, and while there, working in Justice. I was invited to become counsel of the president.

Who invited you?

Who invited you?

Richard Nixon?

Richard Nixon?

Nixon someone's making a recommendation to him, or he knew you personally.

Nixon someone's making a recommendation to him, or he knew you personally.

Well, they sent a feeler out. In fact, I over the years, in going through the archives, I haven't collected at all, but I have collected bits and pieces. I didn't realize they were doing reconnaissance on me for many many months before they asked me to come over to the White House, Questions like could I really be loyal to Nixon?

Well, they sent a feeler out. In fact, I over the years, in going through the archives, I haven't collected at all, but I have collected bits and pieces. I didn't realize they were doing reconnaissance on me for many many months before they asked me to come over to the White House, Questions like could I really be loyal to Nixon?

Literally?

Literally?

Literally?

Literally?

What did you think that they saw in you? That they thought you were a Nixon man?

What did you think that they saw in you? That they thought you were a Nixon man?

You know, That's one of the mysteries to me is why someone as young and inexperienced as I was was given that job. I was given, actually the title. I wasn't given the job. Initially. John Erlickman had been White House counsel. He was the initial White House counsel. He gave up the title, he didn't give up the job, and I think Nixon throughout really relied on Erlickman for his legal advice.

You know, That's one of the mysteries to me is why someone as young and inexperienced as I was was given that job. I was given, actually the title. I wasn't given the job. Initially. John Erlickman had been White House counsel. He was the initial White House counsel. He gave up the title, he didn't give up the job, and I think Nixon throughout really relied on Erlickman for his legal advice.

Did you come from a Republican family? Your dad? Was? He an executive Firestone? He worked at Firestone.

Did you come from a Republican family? Your dad? Was? He an executive Firestone? He worked at Firestone.

My father spent eighteen years at Firestone and then went out. He was a turnaround expert. He would go into a plant, a manufacturing plant, could see why wasn't working. He was the numbers man as well as a mechanical engineer from Carnegie Mellon and could straighten these plants out.

My father spent eighteen years at Firestone and then went out. He was a turnaround expert. He would go into a plant, a manufacturing plant, could see why wasn't working. He was the numbers man as well as a mechanical engineer from Carnegie Mellon and could straighten these plants out.

So did you have some kind of Republican credentials throughout your.

So did you have some kind of Republican credentials throughout your.

My family was not particularly political for you. I actually became interested in politics when I was in prep school and my roommate happened to be the son of a United States senator, and we would go up to Washington and stop and see Senator Goldwater, his son and I and and that's when I became interested in that world. I can still recall and visualize walking down those marble halls with the Senator leading the way, taking us on a tour here or there, and saying, this is pretty impressive. He was also, I thought, an impressive guy. He had one of the first thunderbird for thunderbirds, I was at that age just thinking about getting a driver's license, and we'd ride around in his car that was more like the cockpit of an airplane. He was a Ham radio operator, and could also talk to any air base he wanted to talk to from his thunderbird.

My family was not particularly political for you. I actually became interested in politics when I was in prep school and my roommate happened to be the son of a United States senator, and we would go up to Washington and stop and see Senator Goldwater, his son and I and and that's when I became interested in that world. I can still recall and visualize walking down those marble halls with the Senator leading the way, taking us on a tour here or there, and saying, this is pretty impressive. He was also, I thought, an impressive guy. He had one of the first thunderbird for thunderbirds, I was at that age just thinking about getting a driver's license, and we'd ride around in his car that was more like the cockpit of an airplane. He was a Ham radio operator, and could also talk to any air base he wanted to talk to from his thunderbird.

Now, when you finally go to the White House as a counsel to the President, what was your sense of what the job was and what did you discover the job actually was.

Now, when you finally go to the White House as a counsel to the President, what was your sense of what the job was and what did you discover the job actually was.

One of the things that was really strange is I was never given much guidance as to what the White House counsel did when Erlickman was there. He never really told me anything about it. When Hallaman interviewed me before I went in to have the President, say would you take the job? He said, I suppose you will just do whatever you lawyers do. He wasn't a lawyer, And that was about the guidance I got.

One of the things that was really strange is I was never given much guidance as to what the White House counsel did when Erlickman was there. He never really told me anything about it. When Hallaman interviewed me before I went in to have the President, say would you take the job? He said, I suppose you will just do whatever you lawyers do. He wasn't a lawyer, And that was about the guidance I got.

What were some of the things you did, What were some of the things you worked on you started the job one year.

What were some of the things you did, What were some of the things you worked on you started the job one year.

When I started the job, it was a lot of I realized that Erlickman was sending my office all the minutia, things like clearing people for conflict of interest, preparing us for example, there was no staff manual when I got there, so my office prepared a staff manual to tell people, you know, what forms letters had to be in, as well as the fact they couldn't contact independent regulatory agencies. They had to go through our office or not at all, sort of just basic mechanics. And I told initially I was a solo, and I think they were sort of testing to see who I was and what would go on, and it wasn't. It was about six months before they let me hire an assistant, and I needed the help because there's a lot of work. In fact, today in the archives, the White House Council's office for the Nixon presidency is one of the largest collections of papers.

When I started the job, it was a lot of I realized that Erlickman was sending my office all the minutia, things like clearing people for conflict of interest, preparing us for example, there was no staff manual when I got there, so my office prepared a staff manual to tell people, you know, what forms letters had to be in, as well as the fact they couldn't contact independent regulatory agencies. They had to go through our office or not at all, sort of just basic mechanics. And I told initially I was a solo, and I think they were sort of testing to see who I was and what would go on, and it wasn't. It was about six months before they let me hire an assistant, and I needed the help because there's a lot of work. In fact, today in the archives, the White House Council's office for the Nixon presidency is one of the largest collections of papers.

Well, thank god you weren't doing the conflict of interest work in the White House now you'd be dead from exhaustion. But and you need about five.

Well, thank god you weren't doing the conflict of interest work in the White House now you'd be dead from exhaustion. But and you need about five.

Hundred Either that or there is no clearance at all and no work at all.

Hundred Either that or there is no clearance at all and no work at all.

They probably just closed that office this term. You know, we're not going to bother with that conflict of just send them home. But describe for me, because I think a lot of people you get into that kind of cult of personality with someone like Nixon, and what was it like to work with him? What was he like? Because it's just nothing like being in the presence of the person themselves, rather than through the filter of the media. What was he like when you worked with him?

They probably just closed that office this term. You know, we're not going to bother with that conflict of just send them home. But describe for me, because I think a lot of people you get into that kind of cult of personality with someone like Nixon, and what was it like to work with him? What was he like? Because it's just nothing like being in the presence of the person themselves, rather than through the filter of the media. What was he like when you worked with him?

You know, when I went over there, I was old enough and been around enough to know there was a tricky Dick. But I believed in sixty eight campaign that Tricky Dick had matured. He was now a former vice president who really understood how government operated, and he would be a great senior statesman type person. That's the image that was put out. The White House staff itself was operated so tightly that very few on the staff actually knew what the president did and how he did it and when he did it. It was more they read what was in the paper that was being cranked out by everybody else. As to the image of the president, I, for example, really other than in group meetings and just passed through meetings, had no dealings with him until eight months after the arrests at the Watergate and then I'll have some thirty seven thirty eight meetings with him.

You know, when I went over there, I was old enough and been around enough to know there was a tricky Dick. But I believed in sixty eight campaign that Tricky Dick had matured. He was now a former vice president who really understood how government operated, and he would be a great senior statesman type person. That's the image that was put out. The White House staff itself was operated so tightly that very few on the staff actually knew what the president did and how he did it and when he did it. It was more they read what was in the paper that was being cranked out by everybody else. As to the image of the president, I, for example, really other than in group meetings and just passed through meetings, had no dealings with him until eight months after the arrests at the Watergate and then I'll have some thirty seven thirty eight meetings with him.

You become more useful to him once the issue.

You become more useful to him once the issue.

What happens is after his successful reelection, I have been reporting to either Halleman or Erlickman everything I'm able to pick up about Watergate and the investigation and where it's going and what its implications are and nothing looks good. At that point, Nixon decides rather than have well, not at that point, but several months later in February, he decides, rather than have Hallman Erlickman filtering what I have to say, he decides to deal directly with me. And thankfully it was recorded.

What happens is after his successful reelection, I have been reporting to either Halleman or Erlickman everything I'm able to pick up about Watergate and the investigation and where it's going and what its implications are and nothing looks good. At that point, Nixon decides rather than have well, not at that point, but several months later in February, he decides, rather than have Hallman Erlickman filtering what I have to say, he decides to deal directly with me. And thankfully it was recorded.

So when you so the news breaks, the burglary breaks in what month of seventy two?

So when you so the news breaks, the burglary breaks in what month of seventy two?

June seventeenth of seventy two.

June seventeenth of seventy two.

June of seventy two, he's overwhelmingly elected after that, and when you found out that these guys who had links to the White House or to the committee to be elect had broken into the DNC office at the Watergate Hotel, what did you make of it?

June of seventy two, he's overwhelmingly elected after that, and when you found out that these guys who had links to the White House or to the committee to be elect had broken into the DNC office at the Watergate Hotel, what did you make of it?

Well, I haven't have been in Manila, in the Philippines.

Well, I haven't have been in Manila, in the Philippines.

Ho's convenience?

Ho's convenience?

Or was it? The first mistake was coming home? That's on June nineteenth, three days after the arrest, I'm sent to interview Gordon Lyddy, who confesses to me. He says, it's our men, my men.

Or was it? The first mistake was coming home? That's on June nineteenth, three days after the arrest, I'm sent to interview Gordon Lyddy, who confesses to me. He says, it's our men, my men.

And when he said my men, what was his no. No, Lyddy was x FBI, former FBI was x CIA, x CIA. When he said my men, what was there Well.

And when he said my men, what was his no. No, Lyddy was x FBI, former FBI was x CIA, x CIA. When he said my men, what was there Well.

What he was explaining is that there was on the morning of the nineteenth, the Washington Post knew more than we did at the White House as far as Watergate, and there was a big story that morning that amongst those arrested was the chief of security for the re election Committee, James McCord, which was a pretty good clue that it somehow involved the re election Committee, John Mitchell. Ahead of the re election Committee, the former Attorney General now director of the Election Committee, put out a statement saying, oh, we don't know anything about what these guys were doing. They were freelancing on their own. Well, it didn't take me very long to realize that that was beloney. Today I know that really the conspiracy was hatched over that weekend and the decision to cover it up, and there was a real reason to cover it up for the White House, which I learned when talking to Liddy on the morning of the nineteenth. In fact, I intercepted him rather than come to my office. I didn't want him in my office, but rather walk down seventeenth Street. That's when he said, these are my men who did this. He said, I was foolish to use McCord, who was part of the re Election Committee. Liddy himself was the general counsel of the Finance Committee of the re Election Committee, where that was his supposed principal responsibility. He was running this on the side, and on the way back up he said two things that were back up seventeen trees were really quite startling. He said, you should know, John, while I worked at the White House, that Howard Hunt who helped me get the men for this operation. And I did what he called a national security operation by breaking in Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist office. What I didn't know at that time is that had been really authorized in writing by John Erlickman, my predecessor, who wrote on a sheet asking his approval so long is not traceable to the White House. I didn't know that at that time. Anyway, I did go back and report to Erlickman what I had learned. The other thing that Liddy said on the way back up seventeenth Street, he said, I realized I've made a terrible error, and if anybody wants to take me out, just tell me what street corner. Yeah, he literally said, he said, anybody wants to take me out, just don't do it at my house. I've got children there.

What he was explaining is that there was on the morning of the nineteenth, the Washington Post knew more than we did at the White House as far as Watergate, and there was a big story that morning that amongst those arrested was the chief of security for the re election Committee, James McCord, which was a pretty good clue that it somehow involved the re election Committee, John Mitchell. Ahead of the re election Committee, the former Attorney General now director of the Election Committee, put out a statement saying, oh, we don't know anything about what these guys were doing. They were freelancing on their own. Well, it didn't take me very long to realize that that was beloney. Today I know that really the conspiracy was hatched over that weekend and the decision to cover it up, and there was a real reason to cover it up for the White House, which I learned when talking to Liddy on the morning of the nineteenth. In fact, I intercepted him rather than come to my office. I didn't want him in my office, but rather walk down seventeenth Street. That's when he said, these are my men who did this. He said, I was foolish to use McCord, who was part of the re Election Committee. Liddy himself was the general counsel of the Finance Committee of the re Election Committee, where that was his supposed principal responsibility. He was running this on the side, and on the way back up he said two things that were back up seventeen trees were really quite startling. He said, you should know, John, while I worked at the White House, that Howard Hunt who helped me get the men for this operation. And I did what he called a national security operation by breaking in Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist office. What I didn't know at that time is that had been really authorized in writing by John Erlickman, my predecessor, who wrote on a sheet asking his approval so long is not traceable to the White House. I didn't know that at that time. Anyway, I did go back and report to Erlickman what I had learned. The other thing that Liddy said on the way back up seventeenth Street, he said, I realized I've made a terrible error, and if anybody wants to take me out, just tell me what street corner. Yeah, he literally said, he said, anybody wants to take me out, just don't do it at my house. I've got children there.

What do you think was behind that? Why would he, I mean, other than his own having maybe a screw loose or something. Why did he believe that the operation of the White House, the executive branch of the government, would want to whack him on a street in Washington.

What do you think was behind that? Why would he, I mean, other than his own having maybe a screw loose or something. Why did he believe that the operation of the White House, the executive branch of the government, would want to whack him on a street in Washington.

Why? I have no idea.

Why? I have no idea.

He's a little dramatic.

He's a little dramatic.

Probably a mistake not to.

Probably a mistake not to.

Just to clarify. And of course the day he was shot, you were in Manila, right right, so, but no explain to people what were they after.

Just to clarify. And of course the day he was shot, you were in Manila, right right, so, but no explain to people what were they after.

It's taken a long time to assemble what they were really after because no one really talked about it, and it was kind of embarrassing. One of the reasons I'm convinced that Lyddy was silent is because of the stupidity of all the activities that have been carried on. For example, he post Watergate acted like he was some James Bond type character who had been hired by the White House to come in and do these things. As the historical record shows, he's not quite at the Maxwell's smart level in most of his undertakings.

It's taken a long time to assemble what they were really after because no one really talked about it, and it was kind of embarrassing. One of the reasons I'm convinced that Lyddy was silent is because of the stupidity of all the activities that have been carried on. For example, he post Watergate acted like he was some James Bond type character who had been hired by the White House to come in and do these things. As the historical record shows, he's not quite at the Maxwell's smart level in most of his undertakings.

Another reference from our childhood sad you know Maxwell's spot.

Another reference from our childhood sad you know Maxwell's spot.

Anyway, what they were looking for it appears to me. It appeared to me at the time, and I have since been even more convinced with a pure fishing expedition, they were just in there trying to find anything they could of a negative nature, and hopefully on Larry O'Brien, the chairman of the Democratic National Committee.

Anyway, what they were looking for it appears to me. It appeared to me at the time, and I have since been even more convinced with a pure fishing expedition, they were just in there trying to find anything they could of a negative nature, and hopefully on Larry O'Brien, the chairman of the Democratic National Committee.

So during the period where you're called in now and you become pulled into this circle to help solve this problem, when does that commence?

So during the period where you're called in now and you become pulled into this circle to help solve this problem, when does that commence?

On the nineteenth I'm the person who who's in charge of finding out what's happening and keeping abreast of what's happening, talking to people in the Justice Department, talking to the FBI, talking to the re election committee that has its own group of lawyers, and then bringing that information in. And what happened is the re election Committee started calling on the White House for help. One of the interesting things is I've always been convinced that John Mitchell, who we know, did authorize the Watergate break in. He authorized the money, he authorized the plan. He did it in Florida with Jeb Magruder, who was his deputy, and Magruder then gave the orders. I'm convinced that Mitchell from my initial conversations with him on the nineteenth was prepared to step forward and say, hey, this happened on my watch. He also sent word to the White House over the weekend, stay away from it, deflect all the responsibility from the president, take it all that happened. That was the original plan. But then what happened is he too got a briefing as to what Liddy had done and learned of the Ellsberg break, in which he thought was is bad, if not worse than what had happened at the Watergate. And he and he and Erlickman, who had always had a strained relationship, they often in a room would talk to each other through me. They would turn to me and say, like the other person wasn't in the room. And that's how I slowly became the lynchpin, like.

On the nineteenth I'm the person who who's in charge of finding out what's happening and keeping abreast of what's happening, talking to people in the Justice Department, talking to the FBI, talking to the re election committee that has its own group of lawyers, and then bringing that information in. And what happened is the re election Committee started calling on the White House for help. One of the interesting things is I've always been convinced that John Mitchell, who we know, did authorize the Watergate break in. He authorized the money, he authorized the plan. He did it in Florida with Jeb Magruder, who was his deputy, and Magruder then gave the orders. I'm convinced that Mitchell from my initial conversations with him on the nineteenth was prepared to step forward and say, hey, this happened on my watch. He also sent word to the White House over the weekend, stay away from it, deflect all the responsibility from the president, take it all that happened. That was the original plan. But then what happened is he too got a briefing as to what Liddy had done and learned of the Ellsberg break, in which he thought was is bad, if not worse than what had happened at the Watergate. And he and he and Erlickman, who had always had a strained relationship, they often in a room would talk to each other through me. They would turn to me and say, like the other person wasn't in the room. And that's how I slowly became the lynchpin, like.

A marriage counseter.

A marriage counseter.

Yeah, exactly, because that's that's how I became the lynchpin of this conspiracy.

Yeah, exactly, because that's that's how I became the lynchpin of this conspiracy.

We're taking a break, stay with us. When you're in a room with these guys, I only have a sense of them from archival footage from the news, and so when they do seem like a pretty not a very lighthearted crowd, you know what I mean. And Haldeman and Erlickman and Mitchell. They seemed like some pretty dark crowd in terms of because I'm going to read a quote for you from because you were on the Commission on Reform of Federal Criminal Laws right as the War on drugs was beginning. And then the next thing you know, you're intimately working in a room with Erlickman, who said the following right before he died. He said that Nicks about Nixon Republicans. He said that Nixon Republicans had two enemies, the anti war left and black people. We knew it couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. And he said, do we know we were lying about drugs? Of course we did. When you're in the room with these guys and you get a sense that you have.

We're taking a break, stay with us. When you're in a room with these guys, I only have a sense of them from archival footage from the news, and so when they do seem like a pretty not a very lighthearted crowd, you know what I mean. And Haldeman and Erlickman and Mitchell. They seemed like some pretty dark crowd in terms of because I'm going to read a quote for you from because you were on the Commission on Reform of Federal Criminal Laws right as the War on drugs was beginning. And then the next thing you know, you're intimately working in a room with Erlickman, who said the following right before he died. He said that Nicks about Nixon Republicans. He said that Nixon Republicans had two enemies, the anti war left and black people. We knew it couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. And he said, do we know we were lying about drugs? Of course we did. When you're in the room with these guys and you get a sense that you have.

Never heard that kind of talk, it wasn't until I years later my last book, I cataloged all of the Nixon Watergate conversations. I heard on those tapes. Things I'd never heard those men say in front of me. They were their own small unit that would talk about these things at a level that I wasn't privy. There were some chilling stuff that and racist stuff that I'd never seen in Erlichman before. In those tapes. It's a remarkable record. No president's ever going to leave that behind again.

Never heard that kind of talk, it wasn't until I years later my last book, I cataloged all of the Nixon Watergate conversations. I heard on those tapes. Things I'd never heard those men say in front of me. They were their own small unit that would talk about these things at a level that I wasn't privy. There were some chilling stuff that and racist stuff that I'd never seen in Erlichman before. In those tapes. It's a remarkable record. No president's ever going to leave that behind again.

When well, I'd be too hasty.

When well, I'd be too hasty.

Now you're hopeful.

Now you're hopeful.

Well, we're going to get to the comparisons of contrast at a minute. Both houses of the Congress were in Democratic hands at the time.

Well, we're going to get to the comparisons of contrast at a minute. Both houses of the Congress were in Democratic hands at the time.

Correct, But it was a different Democratic party. Of course, it was a party with Southern Democrats who were today Republicans. So it divided. He believed and hell out the belief for a long time. I think that he could with a combination of Republicans and Southern Democrats, keep his office through an impeachment bill of impeachment in the House, if not defeating that, certainly not getting two thirds of the Senate to vote against him for removal. So it's a different Democratic party. It's true, it was not controlled by the South either. It was more more moderate to progressives. It did, and if you recall, it's very slow that the impeachment process starts with Watergate, it isn't until he removes the Special Prosecutor, Archibald Cox, that they take this seriously. That while that itself may not be an obstruction of justice, an impeachment, or a criminal offense, he had the power to do it a lot of parallels with today. He certainly politically had made a terrible mistake.

Correct, But it was a different Democratic party. Of course, it was a party with Southern Democrats who were today Republicans. So it divided. He believed and hell out the belief for a long time. I think that he could with a combination of Republicans and Southern Democrats, keep his office through an impeachment bill of impeachment in the House, if not defeating that, certainly not getting two thirds of the Senate to vote against him for removal. So it's a different Democratic party. It's true, it was not controlled by the South either. It was more more moderate to progressives. It did, and if you recall, it's very slow that the impeachment process starts with Watergate, it isn't until he removes the Special Prosecutor, Archibald Cox, that they take this seriously. That while that itself may not be an obstruction of justice, an impeachment, or a criminal offense, he had the power to do it a lot of parallels with today. He certainly politically had made a terrible mistake.

There were Republicans, obviously on the Judiciary Committee and in the Congress who were willing to vote for it.

There were Republicans, obviously on the Judiciary Committee and in the Congress who were willing to vote for it.

Slowly but surely they did. They were with the moderates first, and then finally by the end when they heard the so called smoking gun tape, which showed Nixons had based his defense up until the end on the fact that he knew nothing of the Watergate cover up until I had told him on March twenty first, in a conversation that was labeled to Cancer on the Presidency Conversation, he said that was the first he'd learned. Well, that was a pretty outrageous lie, and he got caught in it just by really the Special prosecutor fishing for a tape, and one of that, and that tape showed him telling or agreeing with Holloman's plan to have this CIA block the FBI's investigation.

Slowly but surely they did. They were with the moderates first, and then finally by the end when they heard the so called smoking gun tape, which showed Nixons had based his defense up until the end on the fact that he knew nothing of the Watergate cover up until I had told him on March twenty first, in a conversation that was labeled to Cancer on the Presidency Conversation, he said that was the first he'd learned. Well, that was a pretty outrageous lie, and he got caught in it just by really the Special prosecutor fishing for a tape, and one of that, and that tape showed him telling or agreeing with Holloman's plan to have this CIA block the FBI's investigation.

In the Watergate station with hold them.

In the Watergate station with hold them.

It takes place when June twenty third, right after the breaking, right six days after after right, and.

It takes place when June twenty third, right after the breaking, right six days after after right, and.

And these are the tapes that he was forced to surrender, which he would I don't understand that he did surrender the tapes. Other than the gap, the famous.

And these are the tapes that he was forced to surrender, which he would I don't understand that he did surrender the tapes. Other than the gap, the famous.

Gap, there would have been an interesting constitutional crisis if he had said to the Supreme Court, Okay, I've got you willing, I think it's wrong, and I'm president. I've got the troops. You come get the tapes. This is my property, this is my pa. You're not entitled to have this property. And history would have been very different.

Gap, there would have been an interesting constitutional crisis if he had said to the Supreme Court, Okay, I've got you willing, I think it's wrong, and I'm president. I've got the troops. You come get the tapes. This is my property, this is my pa. You're not entitled to have this property. And history would have been very different.

As everybody knows, it's a famous gap. In eighteen minutes, eighteen and a half minute eighteen, I was going to say, it's a media.

As everybody knows, it's a famous gap. In eighteen minutes, eighteen and a half minute eighteen, I was going to say, it's a media.

It's a media invented event.

It's a media invented event.

So there was no erasure at all.

So there was no erasure at all.

No, a strong man could press the record button and cause the eraser, and the experts saw seven nine efforts to erase that material.

No, a strong man could press the record button and cause the eraser, and the experts saw seven nine efforts to erase that material.

What do you think was erased on those types? Is there everybody well satisfied you?

What do you think was erased on those types? Is there everybody well satisfied you?

No, Because I've listened to the conversations that precede and follow Nixon had a pattern of repeating things that were important or sort of sensitive. They would come up in subsequent conversations. This is a very early conversation. This is on June twentieth, his first conversation back. That's why it was subpoenaed. And I think it was just a gaff that resulted in that probably being erased, and it could have The person that occurred to me that could have done it was somebody who had a terrible time opening those medicine bottles you press in turn. I'd see it in his mouth occasionally trying to get the cap off. He had trouble opening its drawers. He hadn't driven a car in years. This was a very foreign kind of machine.

No, Because I've listened to the conversations that precede and follow Nixon had a pattern of repeating things that were important or sort of sensitive. They would come up in subsequent conversations. This is a very early conversation. This is on June twentieth, his first conversation back. That's why it was subpoenaed. And I think it was just a gaff that resulted in that probably being erased, and it could have The person that occurred to me that could have done it was somebody who had a terrible time opening those medicine bottles you press in turn. I'd see it in his mouth occasionally trying to get the cap off. He had trouble opening its drawers. He hadn't driven a car in years. This was a very foreign kind of machine.

Did Nixon order the breaking himself?

Did Nixon order the breaking himself?

No, No, there's no evidence of that. There's no evidence that anybody in the White House knew. What's ironic, Alec is that had the mission of the evening actually been accomplished, rather than Lyddy and his men being arrested or Lydy's men being arrested, it was traceable to the White House. Their mission that night was really to go plant a bug in McGovern's headquarters on Capitol Hill. The reason they didn't do that is, they got arrested fixing a defective machinery that they'd put in at the Democratic National Committee headquarters. You can trace back through tapes and Holleman memos that Nixon gives an order to put a plant a secretary or a volunteer or something like that, move it from Muskie to McGovern not particularly a wiretap.

No, No, there's no evidence of that. There's no evidence that anybody in the White House knew. What's ironic, Alec is that had the mission of the evening actually been accomplished, rather than Lyddy and his men being arrested or Lydy's men being arrested, it was traceable to the White House. Their mission that night was really to go plant a bug in McGovern's headquarters on Capitol Hill. The reason they didn't do that is, they got arrested fixing a defective machinery that they'd put in at the Democratic National Committee headquarters. You can trace back through tapes and Holleman memos that Nixon gives an order to put a plant a secretary or a volunteer or something like that, move it from Muskie to McGovern not particularly a wiretap.

So as we come rolling into seventy three, right as he's a or things changed dramatically for him. What kind of things is he asking you to do? And what was he like to work with her in that time?

So as we come rolling into seventy three, right as he's a or things changed dramatically for him. What kind of things is he asking you to do? And what was he like to work with her in that time?

Jumping back to August twenty ninth of seventy two, pre election, he had a press conference and one of the early questions he's asked is mister President, giving the factor your Attorney General is now the head of the re election committee and somebody from the re election committee was arrested in the DNC, why don't you appoint a special prosecutor? And he has his response all prepared and he says, well, first of all, the Congress is investigating this, the General Accounting Office is investigating it, the FBI is investigating it. But most importantly, my White House Counsel John Dean has investigated this matter and found nobody presently employed in this administration had anything to do with this bizarre incident. This was the first I heard of my investigation. After that, his press secretary, Ron Ziegler, called and said, John, do you have a copy of your report? I said, Ron, there is no report. He said, well, maybe there should be, and I said, well, I don't think so anyways, think so? Why because I didn't want to lie. I didn't want to You knew that they wanted you to doctor something. It was quite clear they want yes. Yes. What happens is when we're going back to when I first start dealing with with Nixon, he starts on the report again that he wants a Dean report. He is convinced somehow this will make things go away. Erlichman makes it pretty clear that what he can do is have this report in his desk drawer and say this is all I knew. It didn't take me long, you know, I figured that out immediately, that that this would be a setup, and I had no interest in line, I had no interest in giving the false information to the president and didn't. But he presses me on that there were actually three phases of the cover up for me. I initially thought I was just helping out my colleagues and didn't see anything criminally amiss. Defense funds were not unusual at that time. Not announcing them didn't sound horrible to me. I didn't see any quid pro quo in anything. Nothing struck me amiss at this point, as I say, I'm not trained as a criminal lawyer either. Defense funds. What do you mean defense funds? The Barrigin brothers for the had a defense fund the Chicago What are you talking about criminal criminal defense yet? And that's what actually Nick, there's a tape of Nixon suggesting that there'd be a defense fund set up for the Cubans who had been hired by Hunt and Lyddy to pay their lawyer's fees and what have you. If he had done that openly, he might have avoided obstructing justice. It's very curious, and Halleman and Erlikman dropped that I never heard about that. In fact, when I first hear about it, I don't know what he's really what he's talking about anyway, phases of the cover up for me, I initially don't think I'm engaging in criminal conduct when I realize I am is. After the election, Howard Hunt calls Chuck Coulson, and Coulson records the call on a dictaphone. He had his phone hooked up to a dictaphone, as many did in the White House, and he brought this tape down to me to play of his conversation with Hunt. And he's proud of punch of this conversation, because Coulson is because it exonerates him in the Watergate, that he had nothing to do with the Watergate break in I hear something very different. I hear Hunt demanding that he get paid sooner rather than later, that promises have been made to him to take care of him, they haven't been delivered, and the ready is there. I immediately say to Chuck, this is very bad. Chuck. He said, well, what are you going to do about it? I said, I don't know. What I did do is take the tape up to Halleman and Erlickman and played it for them. They said, take it to John Mitchell and get him to solve the problem, which I next did that same day and took it up to New York and played it for Mitchell, whose first reaction is don't you ever have anything good news to report? And I said, no, John, I don't anyway. It's after listening to that conversation, I let my fingers do the walking in the criminal code to figure out what in the world are we doing. And I discovered eighteen USC. Fifteen oh three, which is the obstruction statute, and I discover eighteen Usc. Three seventy one, the conspiracy statute, and I realized we're in a whole lot of trouble. Now. You might have thought that the first reaction would be to run for the hills. I had exactly the opposite reaction. That's when I double down. That's when I try to make the cover up work. I know today psychologically what was going on. I was in what they call the loss frame, where you have no attractive options and you do stupid things. It's unfortunately part of human nature. Happens a lot to a lot of people. I don't did you.

Jumping back to August twenty ninth of seventy two, pre election, he had a press conference and one of the early questions he's asked is mister President, giving the factor your Attorney General is now the head of the re election committee and somebody from the re election committee was arrested in the DNC, why don't you appoint a special prosecutor? And he has his response all prepared and he says, well, first of all, the Congress is investigating this, the General Accounting Office is investigating it, the FBI is investigating it. But most importantly, my White House Counsel John Dean has investigated this matter and found nobody presently employed in this administration had anything to do with this bizarre incident. This was the first I heard of my investigation. After that, his press secretary, Ron Ziegler, called and said, John, do you have a copy of your report? I said, Ron, there is no report. He said, well, maybe there should be, and I said, well, I don't think so anyways, think so? Why because I didn't want to lie. I didn't want to You knew that they wanted you to doctor something. It was quite clear they want yes. Yes. What happens is when we're going back to when I first start dealing with with Nixon, he starts on the report again that he wants a Dean report. He is convinced somehow this will make things go away. Erlichman makes it pretty clear that what he can do is have this report in his desk drawer and say this is all I knew. It didn't take me long, you know, I figured that out immediately, that that this would be a setup, and I had no interest in line, I had no interest in giving the false information to the president and didn't. But he presses me on that there were actually three phases of the cover up for me. I initially thought I was just helping out my colleagues and didn't see anything criminally amiss. Defense funds were not unusual at that time. Not announcing them didn't sound horrible to me. I didn't see any quid pro quo in anything. Nothing struck me amiss at this point, as I say, I'm not trained as a criminal lawyer either. Defense funds. What do you mean defense funds? The Barrigin brothers for the had a defense fund the Chicago What are you talking about criminal criminal defense yet? And that's what actually Nick, there's a tape of Nixon suggesting that there'd be a defense fund set up for the Cubans who had been hired by Hunt and Lyddy to pay their lawyer's fees and what have you. If he had done that openly, he might have avoided obstructing justice. It's very curious, and Halleman and Erlikman dropped that I never heard about that. In fact, when I first hear about it, I don't know what he's really what he's talking about anyway, phases of the cover up for me, I initially don't think I'm engaging in criminal conduct when I realize I am is. After the election, Howard Hunt calls Chuck Coulson, and Coulson records the call on a dictaphone. He had his phone hooked up to a dictaphone, as many did in the White House, and he brought this tape down to me to play of his conversation with Hunt. And he's proud of punch of this conversation, because Coulson is because it exonerates him in the Watergate, that he had nothing to do with the Watergate break in I hear something very different. I hear Hunt demanding that he get paid sooner rather than later, that promises have been made to him to take care of him, they haven't been delivered, and the ready is there. I immediately say to Chuck, this is very bad. Chuck. He said, well, what are you going to do about it? I said, I don't know. What I did do is take the tape up to Halleman and Erlickman and played it for them. They said, take it to John Mitchell and get him to solve the problem, which I next did that same day and took it up to New York and played it for Mitchell, whose first reaction is don't you ever have anything good news to report? And I said, no, John, I don't anyway. It's after listening to that conversation, I let my fingers do the walking in the criminal code to figure out what in the world are we doing. And I discovered eighteen USC. Fifteen oh three, which is the obstruction statute, and I discover eighteen Usc. Three seventy one, the conspiracy statute, and I realized we're in a whole lot of trouble. Now. You might have thought that the first reaction would be to run for the hills. I had exactly the opposite reaction. That's when I double down. That's when I try to make the cover up work. I know today psychologically what was going on. I was in what they call the loss frame, where you have no attractive options and you do stupid things. It's unfortunately part of human nature. Happens a lot to a lot of people. I don't did you.

Feel a loyalty personally to any of these people. Had you developed any kind of closeness with them as a person.

Feel a loyalty personally to any of these people. Had you developed any kind of closeness with them as a person.

As a co conspirator, Yes, I did. I wanted the cover up to work at that point, and that's when I do dumb things like destroyed documents knowing, yes, you know, and I never understood, and for years you know what had happened. Then the last phase of my involvement in the cover up is when Haunt sends a message to me that he's going to have seemy things to say about John Erlickman and by implication, Bud Krogue, one of his assistants regarding his break in at the Elsberg psychiatrist's office fiasco. That's when I sort of say, my god, this is never going to end. We're being extorted. There will be no end in it. It's this cover up is not going to work, and we've got to figure out how to stop it and get the president out in front of it. And that's March nineteenth when that word comes in. I have by then started to have enough dealings with the President that I think he's got trust in me. And so on March the morning of March twenty first, I go in after setting it breaking precedent because you weren't supposed to go to the president other than through Haldeman. When he called me that night, I said, mister President, I really need to talk to you, and he said, how about ten o'clock I said, fine, I'll be there. I called Haleman that morning and said, I need to go in and lay it ou to the president. He really doesn't get it. I don't know if Hallaman understood what I was talking about or not, but he said, fine, you do what you think is necessary. I went in and tried to give him enough back, given the benefit of the doubt that he didn't know anything. I know today he knew almost virtually everything. But I took him through each step, and every time I would raise one of the problems, he'd have an answer. I'd raise, for example, Bud Krog is worried he's committed perjury. Nixon's response, well, John Pergree is a tough rap to prove. I raised the fact that Hunt was demanding one hundred and twenty thousand dollars yesterday he wonted fifty thousand for his attorney's fees and seventy for his living expenses and what have you, because he had by then been convicted.

As a co conspirator, Yes, I did. I wanted the cover up to work at that point, and that's when I do dumb things like destroyed documents knowing, yes, you know, and I never understood, and for years you know what had happened. Then the last phase of my involvement in the cover up is when Haunt sends a message to me that he's going to have seemy things to say about John Erlickman and by implication, Bud Krogue, one of his assistants regarding his break in at the Elsberg psychiatrist's office fiasco. That's when I sort of say, my god, this is never going to end. We're being extorted. There will be no end in it. It's this cover up is not going to work, and we've got to figure out how to stop it and get the president out in front of it. And that's March nineteenth when that word comes in. I have by then started to have enough dealings with the President that I think he's got trust in me. And so on March the morning of March twenty first, I go in after setting it breaking precedent because you weren't supposed to go to the president other than through Haldeman. When he called me that night, I said, mister President, I really need to talk to you, and he said, how about ten o'clock I said, fine, I'll be there. I called Haleman that morning and said, I need to go in and lay it ou to the president. He really doesn't get it. I don't know if Hallaman understood what I was talking about or not, but he said, fine, you do what you think is necessary. I went in and tried to give him enough back, given the benefit of the doubt that he didn't know anything. I know today he knew almost virtually everything. But I took him through each step, and every time I would raise one of the problems, he'd have an answer. I'd raise, for example, Bud Krog is worried he's committed perjury. Nixon's response, well, John Pergree is a tough rap to prove. I raised the fact that Hunt was demanding one hundred and twenty thousand dollars yesterday he wonted fifty thousand for his attorney's fees and seventy for his living expenses and what have you, because he had by then been convicted.

What's the linix in the famousite we could get the money if we had to.

What's the linix in the famousite we could get the money if we had to.

That's exactly the line. That's your coming to it. And and and I said, miss President, I have no idea how much this might cost? And he said, well, what do you think? What you give me an estimate? I pulled out a thin air what I thought was a hefty number. I said, a million dollars. That would be what about five and a half today, never having tried to even kind of, you know, calculate what it might be. And that's when he said, that's no problem. I know where we can get that. And what I didn't know is, well until I actually did did this book with all the tapes, is after that conversation, he goes over to rose Woods door, which is adjoining his off the Oval office, and asked Rose in a voice you can hear on the tapes, how much is in the slush fund? There's six hundred thousand. He will within a week or so be selling an ambassadorship to raise money. He's on the job. He's gonna solve this. He's going to get the million bucks and say take.

That's exactly the line. That's your coming to it. And and and I said, miss President, I have no idea how much this might cost? And he said, well, what do you think? What you give me an estimate? I pulled out a thin air what I thought was a hefty number. I said, a million dollars. That would be what about five and a half today, never having tried to even kind of, you know, calculate what it might be. And that's when he said, that's no problem. I know where we can get that. And what I didn't know is, well until I actually did did this book with all the tapes, is after that conversation, he goes over to rose Woods door, which is adjoining his off the Oval office, and asked Rose in a voice you can hear on the tapes, how much is in the slush fund? There's six hundred thousand. He will within a week or so be selling an ambassadorship to raise money. He's on the job. He's gonna solve this. He's going to get the million bucks and say take.

Care of it. If John Dean was the ultimate Nixon insider, essayist and satirist Lewis Lapham was the ultimate outsider. Despite their shared patrician roots, Lapham skewered the administration and its Wartergate troubles from behind the covers of Harper's Magazine, where he was the managing editor throughout the scandal.

Care of it. If John Dean was the ultimate Nixon insider, essayist and satirist Lewis Lapham was the ultimate outsider. Despite their shared patrician roots, Lapham skewered the administration and its Wartergate troubles from behind the covers of Harper's Magazine, where he was the managing editor throughout the scandal.

I never liked or trusted Nixon. I came out of the you know, the affluent, privileged San Francisco society, San Francisco society. My father had been very strongly in favor of Roosevelt. In nineteen thirty two.

I never liked or trusted Nixon. I came out of the you know, the affluent, privileged San Francisco society, San Francisco society. My father had been very strongly in favor of Roosevelt. In nineteen thirty two.

Hear my conversation with Lewis Lapham at Here's the Thing dot org coming up more from Richard Nixon's White House Council on lessons from Watergate for Trump and the rest of us. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing now more of my conversation with John Dean. When you talk about this period, you say that I'm going to stop this or I'm having my doubts because the cover up you don't think is going to work. Would you have kept going if you thought the cover up would work?

Hear my conversation with Lewis Lapham at Here's the Thing dot org coming up more from Richard Nixon's White House Council on lessons from Watergate for Trump and the rest of us. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing now more of my conversation with John Dean. When you talk about this period, you say that I'm going to stop this or I'm having my doubts because the cover up you don't think is going to work. Would you have kept going if you thought the cover up would work?

You know the President at the end of my March twenty first cancer on the Presidency where I used that phrase to get his attention, and I had it after that, I was I think that's the day I met Richard Nixon, the real Nixon, because I took him through one problem after another problem after another problem, waiting for his fist or hand to come down on the desk and say this has got to stop. That isn't the man I met that morning. He had answers for everything, and that it had to continue, that somebody should take care of this problem with Hunt, and that there was no short term answer. He wanted the cover up to go on. I had nothing to do with Hunt getting paid. He did get paid. Mitchell took care of it, and Hunt would remain a bought man until the Watergate prosecutor is trying Halleman and Erlikman and Mitchell in the cover up trial in October of nineteen seventy four, which is quite remarkable. And then he would decide that he would tell the truth. And he was the Perry Mason witness that came into the trial and nobody knew was going to arrive and explain what the Watergate break in was, how things had operated, and was very candid and very honest.

You know the President at the end of my March twenty first cancer on the Presidency where I used that phrase to get his attention, and I had it after that, I was I think that's the day I met Richard Nixon, the real Nixon, because I took him through one problem after another problem after another problem, waiting for his fist or hand to come down on the desk and say this has got to stop. That isn't the man I met that morning. He had answers for everything, and that it had to continue, that somebody should take care of this problem with Hunt, and that there was no short term answer. He wanted the cover up to go on. I had nothing to do with Hunt getting paid. He did get paid. Mitchell took care of it, and Hunt would remain a bought man until the Watergate prosecutor is trying Halleman and Erlikman and Mitchell in the cover up trial in October of nineteen seventy four, which is quite remarkable. And then he would decide that he would tell the truth. And he was the Perry Mason witness that came into the trial and nobody knew was going to arrive and explain what the Watergate break in was, how things had operated, and was very candid and very honest.

Now you mentioned the three phases of the cover up. Did you cover all three of those or was there another one?

Now you mentioned the three phases of the cover up. Did you cover all three of those or was there another one?

I did. The last phase was ending trying to end the cover up and realizing the only way I could end it and telling my colleagues, I'm going to the prosecutors. This has got you know, we've got a deal with this. We need criminal lawyers in here. I'm going to hire a criminal lawyer. And who'd you hire? I hired a college law school classmate initially to talk about a man who later became the chief Judge of the Federal District Court in DC, Tom Hogan, and we talked about it, and he suggested Charlie Shaffer, who had worked here in the Southern District, was a very accomplished prosecutor and had become a very successful criminal defense lawyer, and he was terrific for a while. Had one foot in the White House and one foot out of the White House. But didn't hide it from my colleagues what I was doing either.

I did. The last phase was ending trying to end the cover up and realizing the only way I could end it and telling my colleagues, I'm going to the prosecutors. This has got you know, we've got a deal with this. We need criminal lawyers in here. I'm going to hire a criminal lawyer. And who'd you hire? I hired a college law school classmate initially to talk about a man who later became the chief Judge of the Federal District Court in DC, Tom Hogan, and we talked about it, and he suggested Charlie Shaffer, who had worked here in the Southern District, was a very accomplished prosecutor and had become a very successful criminal defense lawyer, and he was terrific for a while. Had one foot in the White House and one foot out of the White House. But didn't hide it from my colleagues what I was doing either.

You're a very young man when this is happening, and you're married. I mean, we talked backstage about how your wife becomes kind of a bit player of the whole thing. Is the case, as you said, the camera found her, your beautiful wife, Maureen Dean, and she was there.

You're a very young man when this is happening, and you're married. I mean, we talked backstage about how your wife becomes kind of a bit player of the whole thing. Is the case, as you said, the camera found her, your beautiful wife, Maureen Dean, and she was there.

She had a huge influence on me. I'll want you to explain that My huge was the anxiety though every day. You know, I did not want to get married, but I did not want to lose her. I had been married and divorced and had a child from that first marriage, and I had fallen in love with her and we'd had a wonderful relationship. She wanted to get married, and I just knew this was a bad time. I didn't know how bad it was.

She had a huge influence on me. I'll want you to explain that My huge was the anxiety though every day. You know, I did not want to get married, but I did not want to lose her. I had been married and divorced and had a child from that first marriage, and I had fallen in love with her and we'd had a wonderful relationship. She wanted to get married, and I just knew this was a bad time. I didn't know how bad it was.

I got married how much? When did you know?

I got married how much? When did you know?

I get married in October of nineteen seventy two, very bad time. We have now been married forty five years, so you know, you know, the first time that happened to me was not long ago when I when I said that to somebody, I happened to be in Nashville giving a talk because of Jim Neil, who was one of the Watergate Special prosecutors. They became like fang friends, many of these guys and one woman and his former law firm. He's deceased now, but his former law firm had a program and I came down to speak, and there was a boys' school there. It's a very fine academy, and they asked me to come out and do their assembly, and seven hundred kids filed in and I somehow in passing mentioned that I had been married to Maureen forty five years and the kids broke out in applause, and I thought, isn't that nice? I mean, I was very pleasing.

I get married in October of nineteen seventy two, very bad time. We have now been married forty five years, so you know, you know, the first time that happened to me was not long ago when I when I said that to somebody, I happened to be in Nashville giving a talk because of Jim Neil, who was one of the Watergate Special prosecutors. They became like fang friends, many of these guys and one woman and his former law firm. He's deceased now, but his former law firm had a program and I came down to speak, and there was a boys' school there. It's a very fine academy, and they asked me to come out and do their assembly, and seven hundred kids filed in and I somehow in passing mentioned that I had been married to Maureen forty five years and the kids broke out in applause, and I thought, isn't that nice? I mean, I was very pleasing.

Can imagine what that's like.

Can imagine what that's like.

To be married for forty five years? Like?

To be married for forty five years? Like?

What really now? When you go home? I mean, I'm trying to get you to talk about something just in terms of your personal feelings and your emotional life. Were you going home and you know, and having dinner with your wife and sitting having a drink and saying, what the hell am I going to do? Or did you try to protect her and not?

What really now? When you go home? I mean, I'm trying to get you to talk about something just in terms of your personal feelings and your emotional life. Were you going home and you know, and having dinner with your wife and sitting having a drink and saying, what the hell am I going to do? Or did you try to protect her and not?

I protected her? I you know, I tried to warn.

I protected her? I you know, I tried to warn.

Her, you know, until you give me your wife what's going on. I tried to.

Her, you know, until you give me your wife what's going on. I tried to.

Explain to her there were going to be problems, but I wasn't terribly.

Explain to her there were going to be problems, but I wasn't terribly.

I just got married.

I just got married.

And depth about it. I must. Somebody recently asked me how did I get through it all? And my answer was vodka.

And depth about it. I must. Somebody recently asked me how did I get through it all? And my answer was vodka.

So you did not confide a great deal.

So you did not confide a great deal.

In her, No I didn't. You did none of you know, essentially, none of the men talked to their wives about what was going on. I'm sure more lamps would have been overheads if some of the women had learned about what was going on when it was going on. I think all the wives were shocked at some of this. But anyway, as I said, she had a tremendous influence on me. When I decided to break rank, one of the reasons was I didn't want to disappoint her. I wanted to live up to the standard. She thought.

In her, No I didn't. You did none of you know, essentially, none of the men talked to their wives about what was going on. I'm sure more lamps would have been overheads if some of the women had learned about what was going on when it was going on. I think all the wives were shocked at some of this. But anyway, as I said, she had a tremendous influence on me. When I decided to break rank, one of the reasons was I didn't want to disappoint her. I wanted to live up to the standard. She thought.

March sixteenth is when you said the meeting was with him cancer on the president March twenty first, twenty first, and how soon after that do you get canned?

March sixteenth is when you said the meeting was with him cancer on the president March twenty first, twenty first, and how soon after that do you get canned?

End of April.

End of April.

There's very tight.

There's very tight.

It's tight, but the tapes are fascinating. The tapes. My editor happens to be here tonight and he helped me tremendously. That there were four I ended up with four million words in twenty thick notebooks of transcripts that we had to bring down to narrative and dialogue. And when I got to those tapes in that period at the end, after I'd given him the cancer and the presidency, the conversations are so repetitive. I mean, they just go over and over trying to figure out how to deal with me. What are they going to do? And generally the only answer is to make me the scapegoat. He's afraid of me. When he he lets Halleman and Erlkman go, he just, in a one sentence says, and so is White House counsel John Dene no shots at me at all, because when I get in there, I start telling him things he doesn't even know. He didn't know until I tell him on March seventeenth that there had been the break in at Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office and Erlikman had been behind it. Erlkman had never shared this with him. The reason I'm convinced those men never got pardons by Nixon when he was on his way out the door is he figured out that they really hadn't kept him informed, and they had their own agenda, and they were protecting themselves. I actually tried to get everybody to flip inside. I thought that was I thought that would be so sobering for Nixon and everybody else could just stand up and take responsibility that his presidence tried.

It's tight, but the tapes are fascinating. The tapes. My editor happens to be here tonight and he helped me tremendously. That there were four I ended up with four million words in twenty thick notebooks of transcripts that we had to bring down to narrative and dialogue. And when I got to those tapes in that period at the end, after I'd given him the cancer and the presidency, the conversations are so repetitive. I mean, they just go over and over trying to figure out how to deal with me. What are they going to do? And generally the only answer is to make me the scapegoat. He's afraid of me. When he he lets Halleman and Erlkman go, he just, in a one sentence says, and so is White House counsel John Dene no shots at me at all, because when I get in there, I start telling him things he doesn't even know. He didn't know until I tell him on March seventeenth that there had been the break in at Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office and Erlikman had been behind it. Erlkman had never shared this with him. The reason I'm convinced those men never got pardons by Nixon when he was on his way out the door is he figured out that they really hadn't kept him informed, and they had their own agenda, and they were protecting themselves. I actually tried to get everybody to flip inside. I thought that was I thought that would be so sobering for Nixon and everybody else could just stand up and take responsibility that his presidence tried.

I tried. Did you get close to anyone?

I tried. Did you get close to anyone?

I think some people did? You know? Based on the tapes, there is some indication that people did give it some thought but they realized that it was the end of their careers.

I think some people did? You know? Based on the tapes, there is some indication that people did give it some thought but they realized that it was the end of their careers.

So in nineteen seventy if you begin working in the White House in nineteen seventy an hour in the spring of seventy three, which is an eternity to be in the White House for a couple of years for some people, do you notice, and I want to preface this with someone, do you notice the old Nixon returning? Because as Nixon, as everybody knows, who's the vice president for two terms under Eisenhower, not somebody who was adored by the staff of the White House in the Eisenhower bus.

So in nineteen seventy if you begin working in the White House in nineteen seventy an hour in the spring of seventy three, which is an eternity to be in the White House for a couple of years for some people, do you notice, and I want to preface this with someone, do you notice the old Nixon returning? Because as Nixon, as everybody knows, who's the vice president for two terms under Eisenhower, not somebody who was adored by the staff of the White House in the Eisenhower bus.

He was Eisenhower's heavy I mean, he had the job of going out and being the hatchet man and being the attack dog.

He was Eisenhower's heavy I mean, he had the job of going out and being the hatchet man and being the attack dog.

And then he obviously loses a couple of elections, most notably the presidential election of nineteen sixty. I mean, the Nixon has always been somebody who's a bitter, bitter, you know type, who is this what you begin to see? I mean, Nixon wins election in sixty eighty, wins re election in seventy two by a landslide, and you're in that room with him in the spring of seventy three, and is this the old Nixon.

And then he obviously loses a couple of elections, most notably the presidential election of nineteen sixty. I mean, the Nixon has always been somebody who's a bitter, bitter, you know type, who is this what you begin to see? I mean, Nixon wins election in sixty eighty, wins re election in seventy two by a landslide, and you're in that room with him in the spring of seventy three, and is this the old Nixon.

What I realize is that the old Nixon has never gone away. He's always been there. What they've done very effectively is portray a new Nixon. You know, in doing the book where I listened to all these conversations. As I was telling my editor tonight, I didn't wear hearing aids before that experience. I made the mistake of having earphones on which destroyed my hearing. And I told Moe at one point, God forbid. The last voice I hear is Richard Nixon in this project. But I when I was listening to these tapes occasionally I would, in queuing them up, would find things that I thought that the archives had removed. They theoretically have taken out all the personal material and returned it to the Nixons. But there are some very personal conversations. For example, in January of seventy three, he learns that he from a lower aid that he indeed they may have peace in Vietnam. The first person he calls is not Henry Kissinger. He calls Pat Nixon. They have a lovely conversation. It really struck me that their marriage was much different than I had perceived it. And she, you know, is pleased with him, proud of him. It's a lovely husband wife conversation. Same thing happened to occasionally when I found conversations with the President and his daughters, Tricia and Julie. They're some really nice conversations. I'm sure that family was stunned when these tapes came out, and that's probably one of the reasons he spent so much of his life after even leaving to try to prevent the tapes ever all surfacing. One of the reasons Nixon covers up is he's worried about John Mitchell. Becomes very clear from the tapes. It's not that he's worried about his own guilt. He's not worried about the Ellsberg break in. He's worried about the impact it's going to have on his Attorney General, John Mitchell, who he thinks will never survive it and can't handle it. So he's trying to protect Mitchell. Different people have different motives at different times along the way.

What I realize is that the old Nixon has never gone away. He's always been there. What they've done very effectively is portray a new Nixon. You know, in doing the book where I listened to all these conversations. As I was telling my editor tonight, I didn't wear hearing aids before that experience. I made the mistake of having earphones on which destroyed my hearing. And I told Moe at one point, God forbid. The last voice I hear is Richard Nixon in this project. But I when I was listening to these tapes occasionally I would, in queuing them up, would find things that I thought that the archives had removed. They theoretically have taken out all the personal material and returned it to the Nixons. But there are some very personal conversations. For example, in January of seventy three, he learns that he from a lower aid that he indeed they may have peace in Vietnam. The first person he calls is not Henry Kissinger. He calls Pat Nixon. They have a lovely conversation. It really struck me that their marriage was much different than I had perceived it. And she, you know, is pleased with him, proud of him. It's a lovely husband wife conversation. Same thing happened to occasionally when I found conversations with the President and his daughters, Tricia and Julie. They're some really nice conversations. I'm sure that family was stunned when these tapes came out, and that's probably one of the reasons he spent so much of his life after even leaving to try to prevent the tapes ever all surfacing. One of the reasons Nixon covers up is he's worried about John Mitchell. Becomes very clear from the tapes. It's not that he's worried about his own guilt. He's not worried about the Ellsberg break in. He's worried about the impact it's going to have on his Attorney General, John Mitchell, who he thinks will never survive it and can't handle it. So he's trying to protect Mitchell. Different people have different motives at different times along the way.

So you finally get canned by Nixon himself.

So you finally get canned by Nixon himself.

When well, I'm out of town on April thirtieth when he gives a speech.

When well, I'm out of town on April thirtieth when he gives a speech.

So he didn't fire your face to face.

So he didn't fire your face to face.

No on April sixteenth, he called me in and said, I think we need to talk about resignation, and I've drafted a couple of letters. Well, I knew he hadn't written the letters, and I immediately read them, and they were confessions. I said, this is obviously John Erlickman's handiwork. So I took them back. I took the letters. I said, mister President, I'll write my own letter and send it to you, and which I did.

No on April sixteenth, he called me in and said, I think we need to talk about resignation, and I've drafted a couple of letters. Well, I knew he hadn't written the letters, and I immediately read them, and they were confessions. I said, this is obviously John Erlickman's handiwork. So I took them back. I took the letters. I said, mister President, I'll write my own letter and send it to you, and which I did.

So this event in American history, obviously is chronicled in famous books and famous movies made of those books. And I was wondering, when you first see All the President's Men, which comes out pretty quickly after the movie it does it does well in the film, or will come out within a couple of years or eighteen months, what'd you think of the film when you first saw it.

So this event in American history, obviously is chronicled in famous books and famous movies made of those books. And I was wondering, when you first see All the President's Men, which comes out pretty quickly after the movie it does it does well in the film, or will come out within a couple of years or eighteen months, what'd you think of the film when you first saw it.

I first saw a director showing of it. Alan Pakula had a showing and invited me. And after, you know, there were fifty people in a little theater. After the movie, I went up to him and said thank you. He said, why are you thank you me? I said, I'm thanking you for not mentioning my name anywhere in the movie, and He said, that's not possible. I said, you might check. It is possible. I said, even when that ticker goes across at the end and gets all the names that it has not otherwise involved, my name is not mentioned.