School of Humans. Over the past few weeks, we've been covering two cases in Arkansas, the murder of Gale Vaught, whose body was found on March seventeenth, nineteen eighty, and the strange death of Dennis Flowers. Police believed that Dennis was responsible for the execution style murders of Lee Dixon, a pharmacist who had become addicted to cocaine and started dealing it with Dennis and Lee's wife, Karen Dixon, who was eight months pregnant. A few days after the brutal double homicide, Dennis's body was found under extremely mysterious circumstances. The cause of death was listed as drowning in less than three feet of water, and the manner of death was listed as a suicide. One of the many questions that I see over and over that has come up in these cases and so many others, is were these crime scenes as they appeared to be or could they have been staged? I'm Catherine Townsend. Over the past five years of making my true crime podcast, Helen Gone, I've learned there's no such thing as a small town where murder never happens. I've received hundreds of messages from people all around the country asking for help with an unsolved murder that's affected them, their families, and their communities. If you have a case you'd like me and my team to look into, you can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven eight seven four four, six one four or five. That's six seven eight seven four four six one four five. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. Now, as an investigator, I think one of the most valuable skills that I can have is knowing what I don't know, Because no matter how many autopsies I've seen, or cases I've covered, or episodes of forensic files that I've watched, I'm not a professional death investigator. So I decided to find one. I did this for another reason too, because I get so many emails and messages from people out there who have similar issues to the ones that Gail and Dennis's relatives have. These are people who have a death that they would like reinvestigated. Sometimes it's an unsolved murder. Other times it may be a death that was ruled a suicide where these family members don't believe that their loved one took their own life. I wanted to talk to an expert of out the way that they work, and I wanted to try and answer one of the biggest questions that we have in the Gail Vault case. Was Gale sexually assaulted? Or are the condom, condom wrapper, and gun box that were found near her body evidence that her crime scene could have been staged. This is Arthur Steve Chanceller, a death investigator who runs a company called Second Look Training in Forensic Consulting. They provide investigative and forensic case consultation and training.

School of Humans. Over the past few weeks, we've been covering two cases in Arkansas, the murder of Gale Vaught, whose body was found on March seventeenth, nineteen eighty, and the strange death of Dennis Flowers. Police believed that Dennis was responsible for the execution style murders of Lee Dixon, a pharmacist who had become addicted to cocaine and started dealing it with Dennis and Lee's wife, Karen Dixon, who was eight months pregnant. A few days after the brutal double homicide, Dennis's body was found under extremely mysterious circumstances. The cause of death was listed as drowning in less than three feet of water, and the manner of death was listed as a suicide. One of the many questions that I see over and over that has come up in these cases and so many others, is were these crime scenes as they appeared to be or could they have been staged? I'm Catherine Townsend. Over the past five years of making my true crime podcast, Helen Gone, I've learned there's no such thing as a small town where murder never happens. I've received hundreds of messages from people all around the country asking for help with an unsolved murder that's affected them, their families, and their communities. If you have a case you'd like me and my team to look into, you can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven eight seven four four, six one four or five. That's six seven eight seven four four six one four five. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. Now, as an investigator, I think one of the most valuable skills that I can have is knowing what I don't know, Because no matter how many autopsies I've seen, or cases I've covered, or episodes of forensic files that I've watched, I'm not a professional death investigator. So I decided to find one. I did this for another reason too, because I get so many emails and messages from people out there who have similar issues to the ones that Gail and Dennis's relatives have. These are people who have a death that they would like reinvestigated. Sometimes it's an unsolved murder. Other times it may be a death that was ruled a suicide where these family members don't believe that their loved one took their own life. I wanted to talk to an expert of out the way that they work, and I wanted to try and answer one of the biggest questions that we have in the Gail Vault case. Was Gale sexually assaulted? Or are the condom, condom wrapper, and gun box that were found near her body evidence that her crime scene could have been staged. This is Arthur Steve Chanceller, a death investigator who runs a company called Second Look Training in Forensic Consulting. They provide investigative and forensic case consultation and training.

I have been in law enforcements for a little over fifty years. Spent a couple of years in the uniform, and then I transitioned to a special Agent detective with the Army Cromoal Investigation Division, which is similar to NCIS right, Okay, that's that's the TV. But yeah, it was very rewarding. It was a really good career. So I did DA for twenty years. I then retired. I went to work in a state to Mississippi or the crime Lab, doing homicide crime scenes all over the state. Then I transferred to the Bureau of Investigation and I created their cold case unit. And then after seven years the retirement, I went back to work with the Army CID as a civilian, so I spent you know, I spent about the last twelve years here at Fort Bragg. I was a supervisory especial agent, so I supervised about five different CID offices. So I've had a chance to work several hundred felony investigations, and over the course of my career, I've probably reviewed or helped supervise about ten balloton I'm lucky enough. I got a lot of really good experience, have a master's degree in criminal justice. I'm a graduate at the FBI National Academy. I've written a couple of textbooks on death investigations on state scenes and one on investigating sexual crimes. I'm under a contract right now to write another book about investigating the suicides.

I have been in law enforcements for a little over fifty years. Spent a couple of years in the uniform, and then I transitioned to a special Agent detective with the Army Cromoal Investigation Division, which is similar to NCIS right, Okay, that's that's the TV. But yeah, it was very rewarding. It was a really good career. So I did DA for twenty years. I then retired. I went to work in a state to Mississippi or the crime Lab, doing homicide crime scenes all over the state. Then I transferred to the Bureau of Investigation and I created their cold case unit. And then after seven years the retirement, I went back to work with the Army CID as a civilian, so I spent you know, I spent about the last twelve years here at Fort Bragg. I was a supervisory especial agent, so I supervised about five different CID offices. So I've had a chance to work several hundred felony investigations, and over the course of my career, I've probably reviewed or helped supervise about ten balloton I'm lucky enough. I got a lot of really good experience, have a master's degree in criminal justice. I'm a graduate at the FBI National Academy. I've written a couple of textbooks on death investigations on state scenes and one on investigating sexual crimes. I'm under a contract right now to write another book about investigating the suicides.

I tell Steve that we get a lot of calls about suicide cases. The case is like Dennis Flowers, where the death has been ruled a suicide, but circumstances at the crime scene make people believe that this person did not take their own life. And yet in so many of these cases, these deaths are very quickly ruled suicides. So I ask, what can families or other concerned citizens do. We're told to let the police do their job, but so often people feel as if they're walking a fine line. They want to know how they can help, how they cannot impede the police investigation, not annoy the police. But at the same time they want to be proactive, especially when they feel that in the case of a death investigation, they believe that things could be falling through the cracks or that law enforcement could just be going through.

I tell Steve that we get a lot of calls about suicide cases. The case is like Dennis Flowers, where the death has been ruled a suicide, but circumstances at the crime scene make people believe that this person did not take their own life. And yet in so many of these cases, these deaths are very quickly ruled suicides. So I ask, what can families or other concerned citizens do. We're told to let the police do their job, but so often people feel as if they're walking a fine line. They want to know how they can help, how they cannot impede the police investigation, not annoy the police. But at the same time they want to be proactive, especially when they feel that in the case of a death investigation, they believe that things could be falling through the cracks or that law enforcement could just be going through.

On our company website, which is a www. Second Look training dot Com, we actually have kind of a self paced PowerPoint presentation that is designed to help folks walk in all the path of how to deal, what to expect from the police, how to get answers from the police, how basically to work with the police and not be confrontational, and it's designed just to help families.

On our company website, which is a www. Second Look training dot Com, we actually have kind of a self paced PowerPoint presentation that is designed to help folks walk in all the path of how to deal, what to expect from the police, how to get answers from the police, how basically to work with the police and not be confrontational, and it's designed just to help families.

I looked at the presentation on Steve's website and it's very helpful. One of the best tips that I saw was to make a note of any recent developments in the victim's life. For example, did they just leave a relationship where they arguing with someone about money. Write these down in bullet points, and write down the questions you have when you go to the police so that you're organized. It reminded me of when you go to the doctor's office and the doctor's giving you information. All these expert websites tell you to write down your questions. It seems like such an easy thing, but for example, I never do it, and I always walk out of the doctor's office feeling like I've forgotten something. I think that it's a good idea when you are talking to the police to bring a friend with you and either you or the person you're with to document everything. Again, we're looking at Gail's pattern of life, and any changes in regular routine should be noted. The website said something else that I think is super important when you're talking to law enforcement. It is super important to stick to facts, not opinions. This is something that I try to follow myself when I'm reporting on a case. I know it's easy to get sidetracked by following a theory just because of the way our minds work. Even if we are really objective, we want to try to make that evidence fit your theory. But at the end of the day, I'm an investigator. It's all about examining facts, going from the crime scene and working our way backwards.

I looked at the presentation on Steve's website and it's very helpful. One of the best tips that I saw was to make a note of any recent developments in the victim's life. For example, did they just leave a relationship where they arguing with someone about money. Write these down in bullet points, and write down the questions you have when you go to the police so that you're organized. It reminded me of when you go to the doctor's office and the doctor's giving you information. All these expert websites tell you to write down your questions. It seems like such an easy thing, but for example, I never do it, and I always walk out of the doctor's office feeling like I've forgotten something. I think that it's a good idea when you are talking to the police to bring a friend with you and either you or the person you're with to document everything. Again, we're looking at Gail's pattern of life, and any changes in regular routine should be noted. The website said something else that I think is super important when you're talking to law enforcement. It is super important to stick to facts, not opinions. This is something that I try to follow myself when I'm reporting on a case. I know it's easy to get sidetracked by following a theory just because of the way our minds work. Even if we are really objective, we want to try to make that evidence fit your theory. But at the end of the day, I'm an investigator. It's all about examining facts, going from the crime scene and working our way backwards.

Unfortunately, suicigns. Typically what happens, and I'm talking you know, ninety five percent of the time, I can almost guarantee you what happens, and that is the police will come to the scene. If everything looks like they think it should look, that case is closed out, probably in one or two days. There are multiple cases that I've worked that they didn't even do an autopsy. So they come in, they do what I describe is the bobblehead to come in to kind of nod, look around and what should be required as an investigation, and that ends up being a three or four page report.

Unfortunately, suicigns. Typically what happens, and I'm talking you know, ninety five percent of the time, I can almost guarantee you what happens, and that is the police will come to the scene. If everything looks like they think it should look, that case is closed out, probably in one or two days. There are multiple cases that I've worked that they didn't even do an autopsy. So they come in, they do what I describe is the bobblehead to come in to kind of nod, look around and what should be required as an investigation, and that ends up being a three or four page report.

The sad thing is evidence can be lost, and Steve explains that even in a best case scenario, if a company like his is able to find evidence, even what they believe to be definitive evidence, at the end of the day, it's up to the police whether or not to pursue it, and often the reality is they don't.

The sad thing is evidence can be lost, and Steve explains that even in a best case scenario, if a company like his is able to find evidence, even what they believe to be definitive evidence, at the end of the day, it's up to the police whether or not to pursue it, and often the reality is they don't.

What a frustrating, however, is we have reviewed a case. We concurred with the family that there is no way that this was a suicide, and we actually found forensic evidence in the form of bloodstain analysis that showed that after the victim had been shot and injured. Her hand had been moved and replaced, so we were able to show that to the police and they've done nothing. It's extremely frustrating for the families, you know, if nothing else just confirmed that it is a suicide. But sure the thought, the thought process to the cops is suicide is not a criminal offense, right, so if it looks like it's a suicide, basically we're not going to waste any time on it.

What a frustrating, however, is we have reviewed a case. We concurred with the family that there is no way that this was a suicide, and we actually found forensic evidence in the form of bloodstain analysis that showed that after the victim had been shot and injured. Her hand had been moved and replaced, so we were able to show that to the police and they've done nothing. It's extremely frustrating for the families, you know, if nothing else just confirmed that it is a suicide. But sure the thought, the thought process to the cops is suicide is not a criminal offense, right, so if it looks like it's a suicide, basically we're not going to waste any time on it.

Yeah, that's really unfortunate.

Yeah, that's really unfortunate.

I can tell you I have reopened the suicide, improved this a murder. Well, we talked to the family and somebody came forward with the new information. The difference is just happened in the military. But in the military, the Army Cide did a complete crime scene examination, a complete laboratory analysis. So when I went in to reopen, I actually had a lot of stuff to work with, had good scene photographs and stuff like that. The only thing is that even if I give you an outstanding report, what's going to happen? Because I just told you about the case we had, but we actually had forensic evidence. My partner is a bloodstain expert, so he identified a bloodstain that was peer reviewed by another bloodstain expert which said the same thing. Yet absolutely this hand was moved, and the police just shrugged it off, like dam they don't care.

I can tell you I have reopened the suicide, improved this a murder. Well, we talked to the family and somebody came forward with the new information. The difference is just happened in the military. But in the military, the Army Cide did a complete crime scene examination, a complete laboratory analysis. So when I went in to reopen, I actually had a lot of stuff to work with, had good scene photographs and stuff like that. The only thing is that even if I give you an outstanding report, what's going to happen? Because I just told you about the case we had, but we actually had forensic evidence. My partner is a bloodstain expert, so he identified a bloodstain that was peer reviewed by another bloodstain expert which said the same thing. Yet absolutely this hand was moved, and the police just shrugged it off, like dam they don't care.

We start talking about Gail's case. I tell Steve about the condom that was lost and about the fact that a number of tests weren't done that I believe could have more definitively answered the question about time of death and possibly whether or not Gail's body had been moved, including insect activity, which I did not see on the autopsy report. Steve said he also noted that the lack of insect activity being documented, and I asked him about one of the most crucial elements of this case, Gail's time of death.

We start talking about Gail's case. I tell Steve about the condom that was lost and about the fact that a number of tests weren't done that I believe could have more definitively answered the question about time of death and possibly whether or not Gail's body had been moved, including insect activity, which I did not see on the autopsy report. Steve said he also noted that the lack of insect activity being documented, and I asked him about one of the most crucial elements of this case, Gail's time of death.

This is an example will be called tunnel vision, and that is I've identified the suspect. So don't confuse me with the facts that leads me to anywhere else.

This is an example will be called tunnel vision, and that is I've identified the suspect. So don't confuse me with the facts that leads me to anywhere else.

Because remember, Gail's boyfriend, Ray was basically never charged, largely due to the fact that police believed Gail had been killed the night before. But as we said in last week's episode, I believe that the evidence points to the possibility that Gail's could have been killed later early in the morning on March seventeenth. That would explain why parts of her body were still warm, and why rigor mortis had begun in her face but not progressed down her body. We also talk about the rain, and this is why I love talking to experts, because Steve found things that I didn't see. I mentioned in last week's episode that one of the reasons I believed why Gail had been killed later than the police believed was because of the tire tracks. The tire tracks were very detailed, and in the police report it was noted that there had been rained the night before, torrential rain at around two am. But Steve pointed out that in the autopsy report there was some conflict about whether the rain had started at two am or ended at two am, which could potentially be very important.

Because remember, Gail's boyfriend, Ray was basically never charged, largely due to the fact that police believed Gail had been killed the night before. But as we said in last week's episode, I believe that the evidence points to the possibility that Gail's could have been killed later early in the morning on March seventeenth. That would explain why parts of her body were still warm, and why rigor mortis had begun in her face but not progressed down her body. We also talk about the rain, and this is why I love talking to experts, because Steve found things that I didn't see. I mentioned in last week's episode that one of the reasons I believed why Gail had been killed later than the police believed was because of the tire tracks. The tire tracks were very detailed, and in the police report it was noted that there had been rained the night before, torrential rain at around two am. But Steve pointed out that in the autopsy report there was some conflict about whether the rain had started at two am or ended at two am, which could potentially be very important.

There were some conflicting information. Was it a torrential rain at two o'clock or did it stop raining at two o'clock, So there's real conflict, that's what I mean. So that would be some of the stuff that I would have to check out because the body was the was wet. Now, some of the things that I noticed, first of all, the gunshot, probably a small caliber twenty two or twenty five, probably not anything heavier, but it never penetrated the skull, so it kind of slid along. Okay, which is good. Now, it did cost some bruising contusions to the brain and some skull fractures, but it didn't end the brain. So clearly she was killed by being run over. Okay. Now, the thing that I caught that really caught my attention, however, is the medical examiner investigator I think is who it is, or the assistant one of them is out there, makes an observation how she is described lying in the ground on her right side, shoulders down. That she said that it looks like her right foot had moved back and forth. So that's important because that tells me that she was probably killed right in that spot. Maybe not shots, but killed in that spot. Yeah. Now I'm going to kind of go off subject just a little bit because one of the things that I looked at I've been scratching my head, and that is her pants are down, but they're not all the way off, so they.

There were some conflicting information. Was it a torrential rain at two o'clock or did it stop raining at two o'clock, So there's real conflict, that's what I mean. So that would be some of the stuff that I would have to check out because the body was the was wet. Now, some of the things that I noticed, first of all, the gunshot, probably a small caliber twenty two or twenty five, probably not anything heavier, but it never penetrated the skull, so it kind of slid along. Okay, which is good. Now, it did cost some bruising contusions to the brain and some skull fractures, but it didn't end the brain. So clearly she was killed by being run over. Okay. Now, the thing that I caught that really caught my attention, however, is the medical examiner investigator I think is who it is, or the assistant one of them is out there, makes an observation how she is described lying in the ground on her right side, shoulders down. That she said that it looks like her right foot had moved back and forth. So that's important because that tells me that she was probably killed right in that spot. Maybe not shots, but killed in that spot. Yeah. Now I'm going to kind of go off subject just a little bit because one of the things that I looked at I've been scratching my head, and that is her pants are down, but they're not all the way off, so they.

Were it said that her clothes they found her clothes twenty ten feet away or twenty feet away in the bushes.

Were it said that her clothes they found her clothes twenty ten feet away or twenty feet away in the bushes.

Well, but there's conflicting information because there's another report that said her pants was around her, around her ankles. So you saw there there's a conflict.

Well, but there's conflicting information because there's another report that said her pants was around her, around her ankles. So you saw there there's a conflict.

Yeah, I didn't notice that.

Yeah, I didn't notice that.

We discussed the fact that, according to the police report, Gail's clothing was found several feet away from her in the woods. Steve says that in the autopsy report there's also a reference to her pants being around her ankles. In the crime scene photos, Gail is naked from the waist down, so this is probably a mistake unless someone took her pants off at the crime scene, which seems unbelievable. But then again, this is a strange case. Steve and I talk again about crime scene staging. Gail doesn't appear to have been hit with the car, and she doesn't have defensive wounds on her hands. So was she forced out of the car at gunpoint or could she have been shot somewhere else and then her killer took her body out to dump her in the woods. Could they at that point have realized that Gail was still alive and decided to stage a sexual assault to throw off the investigators.

We discussed the fact that, according to the police report, Gail's clothing was found several feet away from her in the woods. Steve says that in the autopsy report there's also a reference to her pants being around her ankles. In the crime scene photos, Gail is naked from the waist down, so this is probably a mistake unless someone took her pants off at the crime scene, which seems unbelievable. But then again, this is a strange case. Steve and I talk again about crime scene staging. Gail doesn't appear to have been hit with the car, and she doesn't have defensive wounds on her hands. So was she forced out of the car at gunpoint or could she have been shot somewhere else and then her killer took her body out to dump her in the woods. Could they at that point have realized that Gail was still alive and decided to stage a sexual assault to throw off the investigators.

So one of the things that I will tell you that I started looking at is one of the most popular themes to use when you stage the scene is the sexual assault of sexual homicide. Right, So, I mean I started looking at that, and I'm thinking, you know, I have to me, this is so odd that she's clearly but she wasn't dumped out of the car. She wasn't thrown down because she doesn't have any of the contusions or she doesn't have any of the upraisings that I would expect that she had been pushed out right, I'm not seeing that. So and the other thing is is I always the hair on the back of my neck stands up every time I feel like I'm being led down a path. Because if this is the guy and he's a sexual offender and he's out and he's gonna kill this girl, then why does he leave a condom behind?

So one of the things that I will tell you that I started looking at is one of the most popular themes to use when you stage the scene is the sexual assault of sexual homicide. Right, So, I mean I started looking at that, and I'm thinking, you know, I have to me, this is so odd that she's clearly but she wasn't dumped out of the car. She wasn't thrown down because she doesn't have any of the contusions or she doesn't have any of the upraisings that I would expect that she had been pushed out right, I'm not seeing that. So and the other thing is is I always the hair on the back of my neck stands up every time I feel like I'm being led down a path. Because if this is the guy and he's a sexual offender and he's out and he's gonna kill this girl, then why does he leave a condom behind?

Yeah, I mean, I I agree. I have seen people do dumb things. But then on the on the flip side, or the condom could have been totally unrelated. It could have just been out there, maybe some people talking up out there.

Yeah, I mean, I I agree. I have seen people do dumb things. But then on the on the flip side, or the condom could have been totally unrelated. It could have just been out there, maybe some people talking up out there.

Well, yeah, exactly, And that's the other that's the other possibility. But then we have she's undressed, but there's really no indication of recent sexual activity.

Well, yeah, exactly, And that's the other that's the other possibility. But then we have she's undressed, but there's really no indication of recent sexual activity.

No, I think in the in the report, it said she had had sex with her boyfriend like two nights earlier, and that would have been consistent with that.

No, I think in the in the report, it said she had had sex with her boyfriend like two nights earlier, and that would have been consistent with that.

I mean, yeah, exactly, because so that that could be present for up to ninety six hours. So I'm sitting here and I'm looking at it, and I said, you know, I know about sex offenders, and I said, this doesn't This doesn't pass the common sense test that some sexual offender has this girl and he can do whatever he wants, but he doesn't do anything. Now, there are offenders that might kill her and then maybe masturbate over her. Now that there, Yeah, exactly. And I don't see any elements of her being no bondage. I don't see any indication that she was anally assaulted, which is something else I would expect for those type of offenders who do that. Yeah, So I'm sitting here scratching my head that I don't know if you're dealing with the true sexual offender are someone who's trying to make it look like a sexual offender.

I mean, yeah, exactly, because so that that could be present for up to ninety six hours. So I'm sitting here and I'm looking at it, and I said, you know, I know about sex offenders, and I said, this doesn't This doesn't pass the common sense test that some sexual offender has this girl and he can do whatever he wants, but he doesn't do anything. Now, there are offenders that might kill her and then maybe masturbate over her. Now that there, Yeah, exactly. And I don't see any elements of her being no bondage. I don't see any indication that she was anally assaulted, which is something else I would expect for those type of offenders who do that. Yeah, So I'm sitting here scratching my head that I don't know if you're dealing with the true sexual offender are someone who's trying to make it look like a sexual offender.

We're split on whether this could be a staged crime scene or just a panic sex offender. Steve asked me more about the location where Gaile's body was found, which is another extremely odd factor in this case, because why would gles kill her not leave her in the woods? They were surrounded by these very dense woods and trees. Why did they choose to dump her out in the middle of a road. Did they panic and have to leave quickly? Or could this have been an indication they wanted her body to be found?

We're split on whether this could be a staged crime scene or just a panic sex offender. Steve asked me more about the location where Gaile's body was found, which is another extremely odd factor in this case, because why would gles kill her not leave her in the woods? They were surrounded by these very dense woods and trees. Why did they choose to dump her out in the middle of a road. Did they panic and have to leave quickly? Or could this have been an indication they wanted her body to be found?

You have to look at us. When was the body actually found, because that's when you need to start working yourself back.

You have to look at us. When was the body actually found, because that's when you need to start working yourself back.

Well around just after ten am was when it was found and the cops were there by like ten thirty.

Well around just after ten am was when it was found and the cops were there by like ten thirty.

And I guess that's not a very well traveled road. No it's not.

And I guess that's not a very well traveled road. No it's not.

It was a back road off of a off of a two lane highway. But no, it's a back dirt road. To eat APU kind of know where it was.

It was a back road off of a off of a two lane highway. But no, it's a back dirt road. To eat APU kind of know where it was.

It's like a logging road. Okay. How far away from her residence?

It's like a logging road. Okay. How far away from her residence?

About three miles little less than three miles, so yeah.

About three miles little less than three miles, so yeah.

And then the other thing is if this is a stranger doing all this, then what I would expect if this was a stranger, that after the incident, they would have taken her to the next county or something like that, and done it not right there?

And then the other thing is if this is a stranger doing all this, then what I would expect if this was a stranger, that after the incident, they would have taken her to the next county or something like that, and done it not right there?

Yeah, it is weird, Yeah, really weird.

Yeah, it is weird, Yeah, really weird.

Yeah, so it has I mean there was interesting, interesting, interesting case for sure.

Yeah, so it has I mean there was interesting, interesting, interesting case for sure.

So what do we know for sure? Gail was almost certainly shot before she was run over, because it was being run over that killed her. Steve said that, in his opinion, Gail's wounds indicate that she was run over by a vehicle with a higher undercarriage, one that was higher off the ground. Steve said it could have been a jeep which Gail drove, or a pickup truck. Remember last week we talked to the former sheriff, Herb Marshall. He told us that he believed Gail had been run over in her own jeep.

So what do we know for sure? Gail was almost certainly shot before she was run over, because it was being run over that killed her. Steve said that, in his opinion, Gail's wounds indicate that she was run over by a vehicle with a higher undercarriage, one that was higher off the ground. Steve said it could have been a jeep which Gail drove, or a pickup truck. Remember last week we talked to the former sheriff, Herb Marshall. He told us that he believed Gail had been run over in her own jeep.

Well, you know, she may have gone out there and or to you know, maybe regain consciousness, or maybe she never lost consciousness, because remember, I mean, it's just like like a like a big concussion, okay, is the type of injuries Okay, And then they get out there and and he figures out, shit, I got to do something or else. He's not struggling, right, I am imagining, takes her out on the road and just lips your pants off and runs over it. Now, the other thing that I did see with some of the autopsy photographs that are not great, but they're okay. I think you're looking at a pickup truck rather than a car. Hmm.

Well, you know, she may have gone out there and or to you know, maybe regain consciousness, or maybe she never lost consciousness, because remember, I mean, it's just like like a like a big concussion, okay, is the type of injuries Okay, And then they get out there and and he figures out, shit, I got to do something or else. He's not struggling, right, I am imagining, takes her out on the road and just lips your pants off and runs over it. Now, the other thing that I did see with some of the autopsy photographs that are not great, but they're okay. I think you're looking at a pickup truck rather than a car. Hmm.

Interesting. The police think her deep and I don't know where they got that from.

Interesting. The police think her deep and I don't know where they got that from.

I don't they don't know that well anything that's the higher that the body is higher off the ground, because what I what I didn't see. And I've seen bodies that are hit by cars, you know, the body runs into the the undercarriage and there's all kinds of nicks and scratches and stuff like that. And I didn't see anything, although I did find some pattern injuries. And what I'm looking at this at is you know, this is to me, these are caused by her laying across or laying on something. Well interesting, Yeah, it's on her lower I think left leg.

I don't they don't know that well anything that's the higher that the body is higher off the ground, because what I what I didn't see. And I've seen bodies that are hit by cars, you know, the body runs into the the undercarriage and there's all kinds of nicks and scratches and stuff like that. And I didn't see anything, although I did find some pattern injuries. And what I'm looking at this at is you know, this is to me, these are caused by her laying across or laying on something. Well interesting, Yeah, it's on her lower I think left leg.

Would that have been like something in that road or something? Or do you think or do you think someone shot her and then took her out there?

Would that have been like something in that road or something? Or do you think or do you think someone shot her and then took her out there?

Yeah? I think she was shot somewhere else, quite honestly, I mean maybe not. I don't know. I don't have her clothing, so I don't know if there's any blood own her clothing.

Yeah? I think she was shot somewhere else, quite honestly, I mean maybe not. I don't know. I don't have her clothing, so I don't know if there's any blood own her clothing.

I remember that there were no pictures of Gail's clothing, but the police report indicated that her clothes had been thrown in the woods about ten feet from her body. Her underwear and jeans were balled up as if they had been pulled off together, and there was fecal matter in her underwear. This next part is a little bit upsetting, but we have to examine the forensic evidence, so I'm just going to plow forward. It was noted in the report the police thought that, due to the fact that there was no feces smeared on Gail's buttocks, they believe the feces was expelled when she was run over by the vehicle, rather than, for example, when she was shot in the head. This is one of the reasons why police believe Gail was shot before she was run over. But when I talked to Steve, he believes that the evidence points to Gail's clothing being stripped off before she was run over, not after.

I remember that there were no pictures of Gail's clothing, but the police report indicated that her clothes had been thrown in the woods about ten feet from her body. Her underwear and jeans were balled up as if they had been pulled off together, and there was fecal matter in her underwear. This next part is a little bit upsetting, but we have to examine the forensic evidence, so I'm just going to plow forward. It was noted in the report the police thought that, due to the fact that there was no feces smeared on Gail's buttocks, they believe the feces was expelled when she was run over by the vehicle, rather than, for example, when she was shot in the head. This is one of the reasons why police believe Gail was shot before she was run over. But when I talked to Steve, he believes that the evidence points to Gail's clothing being stripped off before she was run over, not after.

I would think it would be possible that, you know, after you were shot in the head, that would happen.

I would think it would be possible that, you know, after you were shot in the head, that would happen.

Yeah, but yeah, I mean it's that you know that got a aweso because it is a I awakened and experience as you might imagine, Yeah, being run over first and then the pants off, I suppose, but you know, with her broken pelvis, that may have been a little bit more difficult.

Yeah, but yeah, I mean it's that you know that got a aweso because it is a I awakened and experience as you might imagine, Yeah, being run over first and then the pants off, I suppose, but you know, with her broken pelvis, that may have been a little bit more difficult.

Yeah, it seems like it'd be difficult to take off. And if they had to and if you do type tight jeans or tighter jeans off a girl, right, you're going to move things in a certain way, you know. There, I don't know, right, Yeah, it's so sad. I mean, the whole thing is actually I think about it a lot because I can't imagine a worse death. Really, it means horrible.

Yeah, it seems like it'd be difficult to take off. And if they had to and if you do type tight jeans or tighter jeans off a girl, right, you're going to move things in a certain way, you know. There, I don't know, right, Yeah, it's so sad. I mean, the whole thing is actually I think about it a lot because I can't imagine a worse death. Really, it means horrible.

Oh yeah, oh no, absolutely, you know, especially if it's if it's somebody at one time you had a relationship with or whatever, which is which was you know, generally what what happens. And one of the things that we that we always stay on a stage crime scene, don't look out signed on a stage crime scene, look towards the victim, because it's going to be somebody that has to point at somebody else. Yeah, they want to misdirect the police away from them, away from their activities.

Oh yeah, oh no, absolutely, you know, especially if it's if it's somebody at one time you had a relationship with or whatever, which is which was you know, generally what what happens. And one of the things that we that we always stay on a stage crime scene, don't look out signed on a stage crime scene, look towards the victim, because it's going to be somebody that has to point at somebody else. Yeah, they want to misdirect the police away from them, away from their activities.

But it's also possible that she was run over by a pickup truck and Gail's boyfriend Ray drove a pickup truck, and I'm thinking about what Steve said about police not checking out about I've found this to be a theme over and over in so many of these cases, which you will know if you listen to this podcast. Remember, Ray's story was that he borrowed Gale's jeep the night before because his own vehicle was dead and not running. How do we know for sure that his truck was out of action? Ray said that on Friday, after he went home after his night out, He said that he slept in his truck and then he supposedly called some friends to come over to try to help him get the truck started and push it. He said that it did start briefly but then installed again. But I wonder did anyone actually check that. Did they look inside the truck? Did they ask Ray how his truck stopped working and when that happened? Did it really die months earlier or could it have stalled much more recently, for example, after running over something heavy. Steve believes, at least based on what he's seen so far from the autopsy report, that this scene has some of the hallmarks of a stage crime scene.

But it's also possible that she was run over by a pickup truck and Gail's boyfriend Ray drove a pickup truck, and I'm thinking about what Steve said about police not checking out about I've found this to be a theme over and over in so many of these cases, which you will know if you listen to this podcast. Remember, Ray's story was that he borrowed Gale's jeep the night before because his own vehicle was dead and not running. How do we know for sure that his truck was out of action? Ray said that on Friday, after he went home after his night out, He said that he slept in his truck and then he supposedly called some friends to come over to try to help him get the truck started and push it. He said that it did start briefly but then installed again. But I wonder did anyone actually check that. Did they look inside the truck? Did they ask Ray how his truck stopped working and when that happened? Did it really die months earlier or could it have stalled much more recently, for example, after running over something heavy. Steve believes, at least based on what he's seen so far from the autopsy report, that this scene has some of the hallmarks of a stage crime scene.

You know, it could have been you know, teenagers out there exercising, and that's one of the rappers there. But again, that just it always bothers me when I see that. It's like I'm being led down the path, you know.

You know, it could have been you know, teenagers out there exercising, and that's one of the rappers there. But again, that just it always bothers me when I see that. It's like I'm being led down the path, you know.

Right, Yeah, so it's a little why would someone leave?

Right, Yeah, so it's a little why would someone leave?

You know?

You know?

I mean, on the flip side, I've seen really dumb people do really dwmb things, especially when they're panicked. But I don't know, it's weird.

I mean, on the flip side, I've seen really dumb people do really dwmb things, especially when they're panicked. But I don't know, it's weird.

Well, you know, but he's But here's the thing we always look at. We always look at what we call it offended the ecotomy. So here's a guy that's apparently so clever as he can murder this person and leave her out there and leave basically no signs that they were there, no evidence. But then he turns around and leaves the condom. Yeah, that's the best evidence in the world.

Well, you know, but he's But here's the thing we always look at. We always look at what we call it offended the ecotomy. So here's a guy that's apparently so clever as he can murder this person and leave her out there and leave basically no signs that they were there, no evidence. But then he turns around and leaves the condom. Yeah, that's the best evidence in the world.

So it's looking more likely that Gail was shot in the head and then her pants and underwear were stripped off before she was run over. After that, there are two main possibilities. Either her killer took off her pants and then dropped the condom and gunbox there to stage the crime scene, or that Gale was shot and had raped. Did Gail's killer leave her in that open road because they wanted her to get found, which would be more characteristic of a stage crime scene. Or was them dumping her there a panicked reaction to something that got out of control. Did her killer panic for some reason and have to take off suddenly. One thing that Steve and I both agree on immediately is the fact that Gail's killer was almost certainly not a random stranger. It was someone local, someone who knew these woods well and believed that on that road at that time they would not be disturbed.

So it's looking more likely that Gail was shot in the head and then her pants and underwear were stripped off before she was run over. After that, there are two main possibilities. Either her killer took off her pants and then dropped the condom and gunbox there to stage the crime scene, or that Gale was shot and had raped. Did Gail's killer leave her in that open road because they wanted her to get found, which would be more characteristic of a stage crime scene. Or was them dumping her there a panicked reaction to something that got out of control. Did her killer panic for some reason and have to take off suddenly. One thing that Steve and I both agree on immediately is the fact that Gail's killer was almost certainly not a random stranger. It was someone local, someone who knew these woods well and believed that on that road at that time they would not be disturbed.

Right, and the stranger would put her somewhere's else because that gives him a chance to get more distanced than the topspineing them. Yeah, so this is that was my impression as well, that somebody wanted her found. And the other thing is is that this is a dirt road. I asked myself, how would a stranger know how to get out there or why took the road.

Right, and the stranger would put her somewhere's else because that gives him a chance to get more distanced than the topspineing them. Yeah, so this is that was my impression as well, that somebody wanted her found. And the other thing is is that this is a dirt road. I asked myself, how would a stranger know how to get out there or why took the road.

I mentioned to Steve the interview with laith Lane, the man who said that he saw Gail hitchhiking on the side of the road on Thursday, and too, as I pointed out, for some reason, when he was interviewed on Friday, just hours after Gail's body was found, knew exactly what Gail had been wearing when she was killed. We look back at our location map. Gail's apartment that she shared with Ray was about three miles from where her body was found. According to her sister, it was a distance that was a little bit too far to walk. Also, when she was found, she was wearing socks but no shoes, so she probably did not walk out there. Someone probably drove her to that location. Now, laith Lane may have a totally reasonable explanation for how he knew this. We know that word travels fast in that neck of the woods. A lot of people had cbe radios and police scanners. Also, laith Lane's mother lived near that crime scene, so he may have actually seen Gail at the crime scene. We just don't know. What bothers me is that I don't know an answer to a crucial question, actually one of the same ones that Steve asked me.

I mentioned to Steve the interview with laith Lane, the man who said that he saw Gail hitchhiking on the side of the road on Thursday, and too, as I pointed out, for some reason, when he was interviewed on Friday, just hours after Gail's body was found, knew exactly what Gail had been wearing when she was killed. We look back at our location map. Gail's apartment that she shared with Ray was about three miles from where her body was found. According to her sister, it was a distance that was a little bit too far to walk. Also, when she was found, she was wearing socks but no shoes, so she probably did not walk out there. Someone probably drove her to that location. Now, laith Lane may have a totally reasonable explanation for how he knew this. We know that word travels fast in that neck of the woods. A lot of people had cbe radios and police scanners. Also, laith Lane's mother lived near that crime scene, so he may have actually seen Gail at the crime scene. We just don't know. What bothers me is that I don't know an answer to a crucial question, actually one of the same ones that Steve asked me.

So everybody that lives around there would know about it, but someone who's coming to Memphis probably wouldn't know about it.

So everybody that lives around there would know about it, but someone who's coming to Memphis probably wouldn't know about it.

Oh No, I don't think any I don't think it was a stranger from like out of town. It might have been a stranger to her or something she didn't know. Well, that's possible, but I don't. I think I think you're right. I think it was someone.

Oh No, I don't think any I don't think it was a stranger from like out of town. It might have been a stranger to her or something she didn't know. Well, that's possible, but I don't. I think I think you're right. I think it was someone.

From Yeah, and that's what I meant by that. It's you know, it's probably somebody local rather than someone just driving through happened upon her.

From Yeah, and that's what I meant by that. It's you know, it's probably somebody local rather than someone just driving through happened upon her.

We start talking again about Gail's pattern of life. Where was Gail in the twenty four hours before she disappeared. Now, unfortunately the record of where she was on Thursday is not super well documented in the police reports, but I tell them what we know. Gail had her jeep on Thursday morning. She was seen at the job site talking to people, behaving normally. Then she left the job site on Thursday night, just after eight pm. She called her supervisor and asked if they would be working the next day. When she was told no that because the rains had been too heavy, that she would not be working on Friday, Gail told her supervisor she planned to come in and pick up her paycheck the next morning. Friday morning. Again, most of the things that happened that day in Gail's life seemed to be unfolding completely normally, except for one incident that was completely out of the ordinary and stood out the fact that Gail supposedly let Ray borrow her jeep that night. Steve once again talks about how crucial it is to identify a victim's pattern of life and to truly get inside the mind of the victim. I know a lot of people may think that I go over and over the same facts a million times on this podcast, but that is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to understand Gaile's routine. What was she doing during all of the spaces in the police report where there are these unexplained gaps of time.

We start talking again about Gail's pattern of life. Where was Gail in the twenty four hours before she disappeared. Now, unfortunately the record of where she was on Thursday is not super well documented in the police reports, but I tell them what we know. Gail had her jeep on Thursday morning. She was seen at the job site talking to people, behaving normally. Then she left the job site on Thursday night, just after eight pm. She called her supervisor and asked if they would be working the next day. When she was told no that because the rains had been too heavy, that she would not be working on Friday, Gail told her supervisor she planned to come in and pick up her paycheck the next morning. Friday morning. Again, most of the things that happened that day in Gail's life seemed to be unfolding completely normally, except for one incident that was completely out of the ordinary and stood out the fact that Gail supposedly let Ray borrow her jeep that night. Steve once again talks about how crucial it is to identify a victim's pattern of life and to truly get inside the mind of the victim. I know a lot of people may think that I go over and over the same facts a million times on this podcast, but that is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to understand Gaile's routine. What was she doing during all of the spaces in the police report where there are these unexplained gaps of time.

Well, the big thing I always look for is any change of routine is what we call a coincidence, Right, any change of routine. Well, usually when we teach law enforcement, we say, every time you hear a coincidence, the many thing you hear is probably a lie. So in this particular case, she never lets anybody use her car, but that night she does. That's a change of routine, That's a coincidence.

Well, the big thing I always look for is any change of routine is what we call a coincidence, Right, any change of routine. Well, usually when we teach law enforcement, we say, every time you hear a coincidence, the many thing you hear is probably a lie. So in this particular case, she never lets anybody use her car, but that night she does. That's a change of routine, That's a coincidence.

Once again, Steve and I discussed the fact that Gail, according to her friend Sheila, never let anyone borrow her vehicle, and then it seems weird to both of us. That suddenly Ray was out all night with her jeep and told the police later that Gail was fine with that. That's a definite red flag. That makes the hairs on the back of my next stand up.

Once again, Steve and I discussed the fact that Gail, according to her friend Sheila, never let anyone borrow her vehicle, and then it seems weird to both of us. That suddenly Ray was out all night with her jeep and told the police later that Gail was fine with that. That's a definite red flag. That makes the hairs on the back of my next stand up.

I mean, there's a there's an awful lot of stuff. Quite honestly, it's it's a it's a pretty good case. It's I wish the cops had done obviously a little bit better.

I mean, there's a there's an awful lot of stuff. Quite honestly, it's it's a it's a pretty good case. It's I wish the cops had done obviously a little bit better.

Ray has passed away, so if the evidence does ultimately end up pointing to him, obviously he can't be prosecuted. But Gail has a sister, Teresa, who is still alive and who still has to go to sleep at night wondering what really happened to her sister all those years ago and why. Steve agrees with me that the laith Lane lead should have been investigated further, and he asks another one of the same questions that I've been lying awake at night, tossing and turning and thinking about obsessively.

Ray has passed away, so if the evidence does ultimately end up pointing to him, obviously he can't be prosecuted. But Gail has a sister, Teresa, who is still alive and who still has to go to sleep at night wondering what really happened to her sister all those years ago and why. Steve agrees with me that the laith Lane lead should have been investigated further, and he asks another one of the same questions that I've been lying awake at night, tossing and turning and thinking about obsessively.

Here's the important question. Did the police contact him or did he contact the police first?

Here's the important question. Did the police contact him or did he contact the police first?

Exactly? You know what? I asked that, and nobody can tell me the answer to that, because I was like, I'm just I just want to know how this guy got involved, like with he at the crime scene? Did he live? Did he happen to pass by? And then maybe you know, because that would explain it. But I just need to know an otherwise. It is very strange.

Exactly? You know what? I asked that, and nobody can tell me the answer to that, because I was like, I'm just I just want to know how this guy got involved, like with he at the crime scene? Did he live? Did he happen to pass by? And then maybe you know, because that would explain it. But I just need to know an otherwise. It is very strange.

Yeah, and I always I'm always suspicious of anybody who tries to interject themselves into the into the case.

Yeah, and I always I'm always suspicious of anybody who tries to interject themselves into the into the case.

Something else bothers me. This idea that once someone is elderly above say age sixty five or seventy, that they are somehow harmless.

Something else bothers me. This idea that once someone is elderly above say age sixty five or seventy, that they are somehow harmless.

I'm with you. Yeah, I don't care who it is.

I'm with you. Yeah, I don't care who it is.

Yeah, you're gonna at least look at these things. But there's something weird. To check it out.

Yeah, you're gonna at least look at these things. But there's something weird. To check it out.

Well, most most criminals will burn themselves out between forty five and fifty. But there's two people that will never burn out. That they will offend and up until the day they die if they can. Okay, that's a pedophile right, and a sexual statist. Now, this is the guy who's into the d s M. Often they reach the stage that their whole intent is to sexually torture someone all the way up to the timely murder them like Bundy like BTK. Now, those are all sexual status. So those little guys that never burn out. They will offend continuously if they can.

Well, most most criminals will burn themselves out between forty five and fifty. But there's two people that will never burn out. That they will offend and up until the day they die if they can. Okay, that's a pedophile right, and a sexual statist. Now, this is the guy who's into the d s M. Often they reach the stage that their whole intent is to sexually torture someone all the way up to the timely murder them like Bundy like BTK. Now, those are all sexual status. So those little guys that never burn out. They will offend continuously if they can.

You can find Steve's company, Second Look Training and Forensic Consulting online at second Loooktraining dot com. You can also reach them at nine to one nine three six zero three five one eight. So where does this leave us with Gail's case. It's possible that Gail's killer is dead, But what if they're not. What if there is a killer walking around out there right now, one who now maybe has children and grandchildren. I'm thinking about the information that Steve gave me. What if that crime scene wasn't staged. What if there's a sexual sadist out there, one who got away with murder? What else have they been doing since nineteen eighty? I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen on Murder Line. Helen Gone Murder Line is a production of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and narrated by me Catherine Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts. Music contributed by Ben s Lee. Executive producers of Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and Elsie Crowley. Special thanks to Amy Tubbs for her research assistance. If you have a case, you'd like me and my team to look into. You can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder Line. It's six seven eight seven four four six one four five. That's six seven eight seven four four six one four five. School of Humans

You can find Steve's company, Second Look Training and Forensic Consulting online at second Loooktraining dot com. You can also reach them at nine to one nine three six zero three five one eight. So where does this leave us with Gail's case. It's possible that Gail's killer is dead, But what if they're not. What if there is a killer walking around out there right now, one who now maybe has children and grandchildren. I'm thinking about the information that Steve gave me. What if that crime scene wasn't staged. What if there's a sexual sadist out there, one who got away with murder? What else have they been doing since nineteen eighty? I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen on Murder Line. Helen Gone Murder Line is a production of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and narrated by me Catherine Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts. Music contributed by Ben s Lee. Executive producers of Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and Elsie Crowley. Special thanks to Amy Tubbs for her research assistance. If you have a case, you'd like me and my team to look into. You can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder Line. It's six seven eight seven four four six one four five. That's six seven eight seven four four six one four five. School of Humans