From my perspective, is not a progressive prosecutor and a conservative prosecutor. Yes, there's good and bad. The people who look at the job as progressive prosecutors are really just good prosecutors. I'm Tally Farnadian Weinstein, and this is the launch of season two of Hearing. That's the voice a former US Attorney General and my former boss, Eric Holder. As you've heard me say many times on season one of the show, I see the job of Manhattan DA as an opportunity to set a national example for criminal justice. So it's only logical that I'd want to seek out Eric's advice and how best to do this. He's been a leading voice in that fight for a long time. I worked as his counsel when he was Attorney General. He taught me much of what I know about being a good prosecutor, and I'm honored that he has endorsed my campaign for Manhattan DA. But Eric's advice is also particularly meaningful to me now because he's a born and bred New Yorker. His grandparents settled in the city following their arrival from Barbados, and some of his earliest childhood memories are of his grandmother's house in Harlem. In the year since Eric left the federal government, he's been thinking a lot about how to continue and expand the fight for justice, and also about how he grounds his call to service in his family's story as well as in his wife, Sharon's family story. You'll hear us talk about all of that in this episode. I am a native New York I was born in the Bronx, moved shortly after birth to Harlem one hundred and forty seventh Street and eighth Avenue. Went to high school in Manhattan, went to college in Manhattan, went to law school in Manhattan. I am New York, throwing through the New York Giants, the New York Mets, the Jets, and Nicks. Sometimes hard being a New Yorker, but I've stayed true to my New York roots. I think I remember you once telling almost a cinematic story about when Cassius Clay was signing autographs, you know, or something on a corner. Is that is that right? Yeah? That was in Queens. I lived at twenty fourth Avenue in AE hundred and first Street. Malcolm X. We'd going ninety seventh Street and twenty third Avenue. I was in a candy store. My brother came running in and said, hey, Cassius Clay has done in Malcolm X's house. And I was like what, So I went down to just in case that were true, And in fact, he was there standing in front of Malcolm X's house and signing autographs. Was right after he'd won the title from Sonny Liston and Malcolm, I remember, was standing in the door kind of looking as here we were on the curb and he was Cassius Clay that he wasn't even Muhammad Ali at that time, and he was signing autographs and I was kind of a smart ass kid. And people aren't going to remember this, but at the way in his blood pressure was very high, his heart written is very high. Some people said he was afraid of Listen before the fight, So I said to him, hey, is it true that you were scared of Sonny Liston? And now I was, you know, twelve years old, skinny, not very tall, and he bawled up his fist. He was the largest human being I think I've ever seen at the time, and one of his fists extended his arm put his fist in my face. He didn't hit me or anything. And he said, what do you think? And I guess, you know, my voice cracked around. And he was a nice guy though. He signed an autograph for me on a piece of a brown paper bag that I treasured, and my lovely mother, you know, she read piece in one of her perennial cleanups throughout my autograph book. And so you know, I don't have it, but I have my brother and people who were there with me who can attest to the fact that that, in fact happened. Oh my god, But you don't have evidence anymore. That's that's devastating. And I'm also just trying to imagine you as this pugnacious sort of kid at twelve years old. Come on, Pally, you know, I've always been kind of a smart actually, you know, I can either confirm nor deny, but he took me right out of whatever smart acidness I had. I mean, I got real humble right after that. Tell me how your family got to New York. Yeah. Both of my mother's parents were from Barbados, and they immigrated lived in New Jersey, actually in Atlantic City, and it was on a trip to Atlantic City that my father met my mother. They became engaged, married and then she moved to New York to live with him. He was born in Barbados. His mother came to New York from Barbados, separated from him for about a year or so, and then set for his sister and him name he came. He's about about twelve thirteen years old. They lived in various parts of Manhattan before settling at one hundred forty seventh and eighth And that's where, you know, my first conscious memories really formed. You know. I remember walking down one hundred and forty fifth Street into various parks with my grandmother. And you know, I don't think of myself as an outer Borough kid. I think of myself was really kind of a New Yorker, was really really strong, you know, Manhattan roots, you know, Eric, I also have heard you talk a lot, almost as much about your own family. I've heard you talk about Sharon's family and her experience growing up in the South, and I wondered if you wanted to say you know anything about that and that how that has helped shape your mission. Yeah. I was aware of what was going on in the South. I read about it, was moved by it. She was born and raised in Mobile, Alabama. And so all the things that I read about she lived. You know, she went to a Catholic school as a kindergarten kid, and instead of integrate that Catholic school where she would she would go into the first grade, the next year they closed the school. You know, you think about that, they closed the school so the school wouldn't have to integrate. So that was one thing that I remember she shared with with that I came to actually know her family. In nineteen sixty three, her older sister, Vivian Malone, was one of the two black students who integrated the University of Alabama with George Wallace, you know, standing in the door to Bobby Kennedy and Nick Katson back the Attorney General and Deputy Attorney General, whole bunch of federal marshals to get her actually enrolled. Although you know, her family was four or five generations in Alabama, they were not allowed because they were black, to go to the university of their state. And on the day that this was in June of nineteen sixty three, that Vivian actually was enrolled at the University of Alabama, Sharon's brothers took turns with a shotgun on their porch to make sure that people didn't try to do something, you know, to Sharon, her brothers, sisters who were still in the house, her parents, and Sharon, I guess at that town was only only four years old, and she remembers though seeing her brother Elvin on the porch falling asleep with a shotgun across his lap just just it takes your breath away. And actually, you know, it makes me want to ask you something that I've been wanting to ask you for some time. So you know, I worked for you at the beginning of the Obama administration, so I've known you for a long time, and it seems to me and to other friends of yours, I've also heard them say that you seem a little bit unplugged in the last few years in the best way. And I wonder if you agree with that, if there has been a sort of a change in you that you see and how you fight for justice and for the things that you've always been fighting for. Yeah, no, I think there's no question about that. I mean, I think when you and I work together in the Obama Justice Department, I was the Attorney General of the United States, and I think I thought that I had to carry myself in a certain way a little inconsistent with you know, who I am and how I'm wound. I mean, I was raised by, you know, a West Indian who said, you don't ever let anybody push you around. And so I go to congressional hearings. I mean I had to really kind of grip my teeth and you know, you know with me at hearings, and you know, you had to kind of take a lot of stuff from people I had little note respect for. But I thought, you know, keep the dignity of the office. Don't give them a sound bite. And now that I'm no longer a member of the Obama administration, no longer the Attorney General, I can go back to being you know who I am. And so if you hit me rhetorically, and I think it's important, I'm going to hit you back. And if you're going to do things that are inconsistent with American values, I'm going to call you out on it. And after John Lewis died and there was this mourning, this wailing on the Republican side by people who had never stood up for the things that animated his life, chief among them being the right to vote, I called it performative mourning, and it was something that maybe as Attorney General I would have read and just kind of shaken my head, But as a private citizen I sent out a tweet about that to try to take them to task for in essence trying to claim they were somebody who they were not. Yeah, we had a good relationship with John Lewis. He was a great person, but the reality it didn't do a damn thing, you know, with John Lewis about the things that matter to him. And so that was, you know, an example of where the real Eric came out as opposed to the person who had to be quiet and keep the dignity of the office and let that be the guiding for us. That was the kid from twenty fourth Avenue one hundred and first three. Yeah, I mean, you are unbelievably disciplined when I watched you in those years, which is a kind of power in and of itself. But it does seem like you are more yourself and more like that kid who could get in the face of Muhammad Ali. And I wonder also if you feel that this has something to do with some of the issues that you have really chosen to put your time and energy into in this chapter of your life. Yeah, I mean I was trying to think what am I going to do in my post government life, and I really identified two things, you know, voter protection and criminal justice reforms as things where I thought we had made significant progress during the Obama years, but things that we're going to need to be looked after in the post Obama years. I didn't think that we were going to have a Donald Trump presidency, which just made my determination to be active in those areas even more acute. I wonder if you might talk a bit about the building blocks of what the Vote Project is really all about for you, and what were some of the turning points that brought you to it. People tend to forget that a central part of the civil rights movement was getting people the right to vote. John Lewis got a skullcraft on the Edmund Pettis Bridge so that people would have the right to vote. Those three civil rights workers lost their lives in Mississippi trying to register people to vote, and so for me, at an early age, the notion of having the right to vote was something that was drilled into me, and I made the determination when I got into high level positions in the Justice Department. This is something that I really wanted to focus on. And so, you know, especially after a really bad decision by the Supreme Court, the Shelby County case, it became clear that focusing on voter protection efforts was really going to have to be something that I was going to have to focus on. And as I said, it was something that I decided to continue focusing on when I left the department. I mean, if you do, that will end up with a government more responsive to the people, with policies consistent with the desires of the people. And it's a way in which we will have a society that will be able to adapt to and embrace the diversity that is our demographic inevitability. And tell me about some of your biggest wins or the areas in which you've made most progress on this. In the last few years. With regard to jerrymandering, we have focused on the creation of these nonpartisan commissions, you know, to take the line drawing responsibility out of the hands of interested politicians and put it in the hands of nonpartisan commissions. We have put them in place in Michigan, in Utah, Colorado, in Missouri protected the one that exists in Arizona, the one in California, and so that is a big plus. We've had litigation victories in North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Virginia that have allowed for the drawing of lines already that are more fair. And we also have a thing called All on the Line, which is our advocacy program where we have gotten really substantial numbers of people all around the country to focus on this issue. I mean, people think, you know, jerrymandering, redistricting, it's kind of wonky. But the reality is, if you care about things like criminal justice reform, if you care about a woman's right to choose, if you care about a climate, if you care about healthcare, all those things are decided by state legislatures, and if they are jerrymandered, you will end up with representatives or beholden to the special interests as opposed to the people. So if you care about those issues, you need to care about redistrictating. You know, it's interesting. I don't think people even really appreciate that even New York was a pre clearance state, you know, before Shelby County, and so we've had problems, you know, with the franchise, not just sort of in the places where we immediately think of and you've just talked about, you know, a huge diversity of states in which you've been working really hard. Yeah. No, that's exactly right. I mean, you know, people in the nineteen sixty five Voting Rights A focused on states of the old Confederates primarily, but there were other parts of the nation, New York among them that were pre arans jurisdictions. Uh. And New York was actually a state that was on our watch list. You know, we have a list of target states and then we have a watch list. You had nothing but same day voting in New York. You know, for for as long as we can remember, you think New York progressive state. Um, you know, a leading state when it comes to getting government right. Um, there were some real inadequacies when it came to voting in New York until you know, I guess the last couple of years and New York slipped off that list. And you know, reforms have been put in place, but you know, New York, it was always kind of a particular interest to me that, you know, my home state get it right as well. Yeah, I mean I'm sort of mortified that we should be on a watch list, and yet I see it. You know, we have closed primaries, which you know, I think have the effect of disenfranchising people. I think we have a lot to work through. I mean, I like to think of what I'm doing now really as a continuation tally of the work that we did together, you know, at the at the Justice Department, voting rights, criminal justice reform. I mean, he's a things that you know, I think probably attracted you to the office, and things that you certainly worked on when you were with me, you know, fighting for criminal justice reform. I mean, you know, you remember I gave that speech about the broken criminal justice system, calling out putting in place that's smart on crime and issue that was back in twenty thirteen, and so I think in some ways, you know, the country's catching up to that which you and I worked on, you know, many years ago. I mean, when we talked about criminal justice reform back then, there was not a lot of voices out there with us. But I think there's a moral component to it. But there's all it's also good law enforcement to have a system that people believe in, you know, I think that's right. You know, I often find now, Eric that so many of the things that people are talking about are just in a different vocabulary from what you had laid out. You know, at this point, almost a decade ago. You know, now it's very fashionable to talk about progressive prosecution. I don't think we had that formulation, but you you had already put your foot down to say that all of us are actually safer when the system is more ethical and more fair, and is sensitive to racial disparities, and to you know, making sure that the poor are treated fairly. You know, all of these sort of building blocks of now what it means to be a sensitive and progressive prosecutor. And to me, one of the challenges right now, in this moment that we are in around criminal justice reform is, you know, I think people are so angry at you know, justifiably so that the focus is on what should we stop doing? Right, It's always what are the cases we need to stop ringing? Where is the place where we need to shrink our footprint, you know, everything on the side of less less law enforcement. And I think that true reform also must answer the question of who are we not looking out for? How are we not using our resources to help the most vulnerable. What are the cases that we could have been making all those years instead of those cases that weren't advancing anybody's public safety? You know, what is our job as prosecutors not just to say, well, let's stand down from certain prosecutions, but to actually have a robust prosecution agenda. No, I think that's right. I think the way you formulated is exactly right. It's not only a question of what is it what are you not going to do? The other questions what are you going to do? You know, prosecutors have enormous amounts of power. You have the ability to separate people from their property, separate people from their liberty. You can hold people and entities accountable. The question is, you know, you have limited resources, finite amount of attention. How are you going to use that power? And yeah, there is a legitimate question about whether or not things have been done to access when it comes to the prosecution of status crimes, you know, certain drug crimes. That's fine, But the question also is for all people who seek these offices or have that power, what are you going to do? How are you going to use that power to enhance the day to day lives of the people that you serve. If you keep those questions in mind, I think he drives you. Yeah, And I wonder what the next piece of that is in terms of community engagement, which you know is something that I know you have been thinking of about how can we sort of help people to feel connected to the project of law enforcement in the way that you have just described it, to not feel like it's it's outside and sort of invasive force, but actually really standing with you. People ask me, you know, all the time I've been a judge, definitely, attorney general, US attorney attorney, You've always asked me, what's your best job, and expect me to say, you know, being attorney general. And it was a lot about I like about being Attorney general. I not to be in the president's cabinet, you know, not go all around the world. Best job I ever had US Attorney Washington, DC. That person is basically because Washington's not a state, US attorney is basically like the DA Washington d seen. One of the things that I decided to do was to try to at the office to the people. Traditionally, the US Attorney's office had been something that was pretty remote, had no connections to the communities that it served, and so we put together a whole plan. As a person who's designated as a community outreach officer, I went to I don't know how many meetings, church basements and people's living rooms just to give them a sense that, you know, they were being listened to, and they were because the interesting part about that interaction is that you heard from people about, you know, things that were affecting them in real time. I mean, you know, real concerns. It wasn't theoretical. They're saying, you know, I have a problem with somebody's dealing drugs at eight o'clock on this corner, garbage dumping. You know, you really had it an opportunity to think about how you wanted to prioritize that power that I had as as the US Attorney. So anybody who was a prosecutor appointed as I was, or elected, you have to be in touch with connected to the people that you served, and they have to see you because the reality is that unless there is that kind of trust, that notion of engagement, you're not going to get the cooperation that you need from people. It's a logical thing. What's the point, you know, why am I engaged with you, Why am I going to share information with you. On the other hand, if you're a known entity, if you're known as somebody who cares, you will see the level of cooperation go up. And that at the end of the day, keeps everybody more safe, including people in law enforcement. I mean, you know, people who understand this, This progressive prosecution model not only protects people in distressed communities, it also protects people in law enforcement who serve in those communities. Yeah. You know, the blessing of this being an elected position is that it does push you to go out there in the way that you've described. And you know, I'll just tell you my very first foray out into the community as a candidate. I went to a public house and complex in northern Manhattan, and I expected to are certain things about physical safety, you know, And I asked, what are the things that you're worried about, just from my experience and doing cases in some of these complexes and what I knew about the stats. And it was almost like a setup. Eric, Everything I heard was about something else. All everyone wanted to tell me about was about fraud that they were experiencing. And the seniors, particularly in their houses were experiencing through the phone and computer all these scams that had cropped up because of the virus, people promising to sell them, you know, a cure, a vaccine, some kind of public benefit that they could get if they just handed over some private information. And that was an important learning experience for me. I mean, they what they were reporting is what was important to them. And that's precisely why going through the process of getting elected I think is important. Is precisely why you know, somebody like you I think would be good in that office, and you have those sensitivities, that ability to receive that kind of information, then formulate policy on the basis of what you receive, and then with all due respect. You know, a lot of my friends in the academic world who don't live in these communities and who don't know what people are really focused upon. Everybody wants a fair criminal justice and there's no question about that. People need to be treated with dignity and with respect. And you know, my hope would be that you know, you'll get the opportunity to serve in a position that you see it was. I'm pretty confident, I'm totally confident that if you are the next DA in Manhattan. You'll bring you all the stuff that you know I thought was great about you, and maybe want to hire you to the job, and you'll have that sense of community involvement that I think will make you a good prosecutor. From my perspective, the things that people say are good about progressive prosecutors simply make you a good prosecutor. I agree with that, and I think it actually it obscures when you use that language and you make it sound like a small club. It obscures what is the responsibility of the legion or prosecutors all around the country. I mean, you were trying to and you did lead thousands of prosecutors around the country, you know, in their core mission, which is really what we are describing here. And I hope that I can bring that learning to Manhattan, if you don't mind, I just want to ask you to me. I can't get out of my head this phrase performative morning. You know, the very critical way in which you talked about the reaction to Congressman Lewis's death and the talk without action, and it was really an opportunity for you to reflect on leadership. And I wonder if you might say, what is a good leader in the mind of Eric Holder's interesting question. You know, I mean, I think that good leaders are people who have the courage to do things that are maybe going to be unpopular or that are going to be in advance of where you know, the people are. I think about Roosevelt getting the country ready for World War Two when the nation was still very much isolationist. We had a very crap after you know, do that people have the courage to challenge the status quo. You know, doctor King, you know, he did that at great risk, and people tend to forget. You know, we now we have a national holiday for him. When he died. He was a very unpopular figure Act of Gallipole, so he only had approval ratings like in the thirties because he was seen as a rabble rouser, a person who would have taken the fight outside the South to the North, who talked against the Vietnam War. So the ability to have some kind of some foresight mixed in with a good dose of courage, and then people who also never lose the common touch. You don't, you know, separate yourself from the people you're supposed to serve. You've got to always be in touch. You know, you don't arrogant about a view of you know, I know what's best, I know what the priorities are to be. You know, you ought to have, you know, an agenda certainly a set of priorities, but that is always subject to change, and a lot of that change I think can come from that interact with you know, with the people that that you serve. Let me just ask you in closing, what are some of your hopes or ambitions for the National Criminal Justice Reform agenda? Now that we are, you know, on the brink of a new administration. Trust, trust, trust and trust. I mean, that's the thing that we need to focus on. How is it that we build up trust between people in communities of color, people in distressed communities. How do you build up that level of trust between those people and people in law enforcement? You know, if you focus on that, you know, building up trust, that'll steer you to the mechanisms that need to need to occur. You're listening to people again, builds up trust, you know, Eric. I also I'm struck by the fact that that I hadn't really thought about that you really were kind of like the da of Washington because of the funny politics of Washington, and that, unlike other federal prosecutors, you really were in touch with communities. You know, often federal prosecution can be at a little bit more of a remove, and maybe that has anchored you more than I had ever really appreciated. As the US Attorney in DC, you're dealing with everything from really petty misdemeanors, you know, all the way up to the really most sophisticated political corruption cases. And the largest part of the office, it's why it's the largest US Attorney's office in the country, have the greatest number of people in the office on the local side, and that's that to me, was the stuff that was actually the most interesting because you could actually see the changes in neighborhoods, see the changes in the relationships between prosecutors and the people they served, between police officers and the people they served as a result of the policies that we put in place. I loved working for you in the Temple of Justice, but I this for me, being on the ground and just seeing the texture of what we do is gratifying. I find in a very different way as the US Attorney the DA, you can really change things people can see from an election positive difference in their lives. Hearing is produced in partnership with Pushkin Industries. Our producers are Sam Dingman and Camille Baptista. Our engineer is Evan Viola. Special thanks to Malcolm Gladwell and Jacob Weisberg. This podcast is paid for by New Yorkers for Tally. To learn more about Eric's work to protect voting rights, please visit Democratic Redistricting dot com. I am running to be District Attorney of Manhattan and to set a national example in delivering safety, fairness, and justice for all, especially our most vulnerable. If you like what you've heard, go to Tali farda dot com to learn more about my campaign. I'm Tali Farhadien Weinstein. Thank you for listening. I'll see you next time on Hearing and

From my perspective, is not a progressive prosecutor and a conservative prosecutor. Yes, there's good and bad. The people who look at the job as progressive prosecutors are really just good prosecutors. I'm Tally Farnadian Weinstein, and this is the launch of season two of Hearing. That's the voice a former US Attorney General and my former boss, Eric Holder. As you've heard me say many times on season one of the show, I see the job of Manhattan DA as an opportunity to set a national example for criminal justice. So it's only logical that I'd want to seek out Eric's advice and how best to do this. He's been a leading voice in that fight for a long time. I worked as his counsel when he was Attorney General. He taught me much of what I know about being a good prosecutor, and I'm honored that he has endorsed my campaign for Manhattan DA. But Eric's advice is also particularly meaningful to me now because he's a born and bred New Yorker. His grandparents settled in the city following their arrival from Barbados, and some of his earliest childhood memories are of his grandmother's house in Harlem. In the year since Eric left the federal government, he's been thinking a lot about how to continue and expand the fight for justice, and also about how he grounds his call to service in his family's story as well as in his wife, Sharon's family story. You'll hear us talk about all of that in this episode. I am a native New York I was born in the Bronx, moved shortly after birth to Harlem one hundred and forty seventh Street and eighth Avenue. Went to high school in Manhattan, went to college in Manhattan, went to law school in Manhattan. I am New York, throwing through the New York Giants, the New York Mets, the Jets, and Nicks. Sometimes hard being a New Yorker, but I've stayed true to my New York roots. I think I remember you once telling almost a cinematic story about when Cassius Clay was signing autographs, you know, or something on a corner. Is that is that right? Yeah? That was in Queens. I lived at twenty fourth Avenue in AE hundred and first Street. Malcolm X. We'd going ninety seventh Street and twenty third Avenue. I was in a candy store. My brother came running in and said, hey, Cassius Clay has done in Malcolm X's house. And I was like what, So I went down to just in case that were true, And in fact, he was there standing in front of Malcolm X's house and signing autographs. Was right after he'd won the title from Sonny Liston and Malcolm, I remember, was standing in the door kind of looking as here we were on the curb and he was Cassius Clay that he wasn't even Muhammad Ali at that time, and he was signing autographs and I was kind of a smart ass kid. And people aren't going to remember this, but at the way in his blood pressure was very high, his heart written is very high. Some people said he was afraid of Listen before the fight, So I said to him, hey, is it true that you were scared of Sonny Liston? And now I was, you know, twelve years old, skinny, not very tall, and he bawled up his fist. He was the largest human being I think I've ever seen at the time, and one of his fists extended his arm put his fist in my face. He didn't hit me or anything. And he said, what do you think? And I guess, you know, my voice cracked around. And he was a nice guy though. He signed an autograph for me on a piece of a brown paper bag that I treasured, and my lovely mother, you know, she read piece in one of her perennial cleanups throughout my autograph book. And so you know, I don't have it, but I have my brother and people who were there with me who can attest to the fact that that, in fact happened. Oh my god, But you don't have evidence anymore. That's that's devastating. And I'm also just trying to imagine you as this pugnacious sort of kid at twelve years old. Come on, Pally, you know, I've always been kind of a smart actually, you know, I can either confirm nor deny, but he took me right out of whatever smart acidness I had. I mean, I got real humble right after that. Tell me how your family got to New York. Yeah. Both of my mother's parents were from Barbados, and they immigrated lived in New Jersey, actually in Atlantic City, and it was on a trip to Atlantic City that my father met my mother. They became engaged, married and then she moved to New York to live with him. He was born in Barbados. His mother came to New York from Barbados, separated from him for about a year or so, and then set for his sister and him name he came. He's about about twelve thirteen years old. They lived in various parts of Manhattan before settling at one hundred forty seventh and eighth And that's where, you know, my first conscious memories really formed. You know. I remember walking down one hundred and forty fifth Street into various parks with my grandmother. And you know, I don't think of myself as an outer Borough kid. I think of myself was really kind of a New Yorker, was really really strong, you know, Manhattan roots, you know, Eric, I also have heard you talk a lot, almost as much about your own family. I've heard you talk about Sharon's family and her experience growing up in the South, and I wondered if you wanted to say you know anything about that and that how that has helped shape your mission. Yeah. I was aware of what was going on in the South. I read about it, was moved by it. She was born and raised in Mobile, Alabama. And so all the things that I read about she lived. You know, she went to a Catholic school as a kindergarten kid, and instead of integrate that Catholic school where she would she would go into the first grade, the next year they closed the school. You know, you think about that, they closed the school so the school wouldn't have to integrate. So that was one thing that I remember she shared with with that I came to actually know her family. In nineteen sixty three, her older sister, Vivian Malone, was one of the two black students who integrated the University of Alabama with George Wallace, you know, standing in the door to Bobby Kennedy and Nick Katson back the Attorney General and Deputy Attorney General, whole bunch of federal marshals to get her actually enrolled. Although you know, her family was four or five generations in Alabama, they were not allowed because they were black, to go to the university of their state. And on the day that this was in June of nineteen sixty three, that Vivian actually was enrolled at the University of Alabama, Sharon's brothers took turns with a shotgun on their porch to make sure that people didn't try to do something, you know, to Sharon, her brothers, sisters who were still in the house, her parents, and Sharon, I guess at that town was only only four years old, and she remembers though seeing her brother Elvin on the porch falling asleep with a shotgun across his lap just just it takes your breath away. And actually, you know, it makes me want to ask you something that I've been wanting to ask you for some time. So you know, I worked for you at the beginning of the Obama administration, so I've known you for a long time, and it seems to me and to other friends of yours, I've also heard them say that you seem a little bit unplugged in the last few years in the best way. And I wonder if you agree with that, if there has been a sort of a change in you that you see and how you fight for justice and for the things that you've always been fighting for. Yeah, no, I think there's no question about that. I mean, I think when you and I work together in the Obama Justice Department, I was the Attorney General of the United States, and I think I thought that I had to carry myself in a certain way a little inconsistent with you know, who I am and how I'm wound. I mean, I was raised by, you know, a West Indian who said, you don't ever let anybody push you around. And so I go to congressional hearings. I mean I had to really kind of grip my teeth and you know, you know with me at hearings, and you know, you had to kind of take a lot of stuff from people I had little note respect for. But I thought, you know, keep the dignity of the office. Don't give them a sound bite. And now that I'm no longer a member of the Obama administration, no longer the Attorney General, I can go back to being you know who I am. And so if you hit me rhetorically, and I think it's important, I'm going to hit you back. And if you're going to do things that are inconsistent with American values, I'm going to call you out on it. And after John Lewis died and there was this mourning, this wailing on the Republican side by people who had never stood up for the things that animated his life, chief among them being the right to vote, I called it performative mourning, and it was something that maybe as Attorney General I would have read and just kind of shaken my head, But as a private citizen I sent out a tweet about that to try to take them to task for in essence trying to claim they were somebody who they were not. Yeah, we had a good relationship with John Lewis. He was a great person, but the reality it didn't do a damn thing, you know, with John Lewis about the things that matter to him. And so that was, you know, an example of where the real Eric came out as opposed to the person who had to be quiet and keep the dignity of the office and let that be the guiding for us. That was the kid from twenty fourth Avenue one hundred and first three. Yeah, I mean, you are unbelievably disciplined when I watched you in those years, which is a kind of power in and of itself. But it does seem like you are more yourself and more like that kid who could get in the face of Muhammad Ali. And I wonder also if you feel that this has something to do with some of the issues that you have really chosen to put your time and energy into in this chapter of your life. Yeah, I mean I was trying to think what am I going to do in my post government life, and I really identified two things, you know, voter protection and criminal justice reforms as things where I thought we had made significant progress during the Obama years, but things that we're going to need to be looked after in the post Obama years. I didn't think that we were going to have a Donald Trump presidency, which just made my determination to be active in those areas even more acute. I wonder if you might talk a bit about the building blocks of what the Vote Project is really all about for you, and what were some of the turning points that brought you to it. People tend to forget that a central part of the civil rights movement was getting people the right to vote. John Lewis got a skullcraft on the Edmund Pettis Bridge so that people would have the right to vote. Those three civil rights workers lost their lives in Mississippi trying to register people to vote, and so for me, at an early age, the notion of having the right to vote was something that was drilled into me, and I made the determination when I got into high level positions in the Justice Department. This is something that I really wanted to focus on. And so, you know, especially after a really bad decision by the Supreme Court, the Shelby County case, it became clear that focusing on voter protection efforts was really going to have to be something that I was going to have to focus on. And as I said, it was something that I decided to continue focusing on when I left the department. I mean, if you do, that will end up with a government more responsive to the people, with policies consistent with the desires of the people. And it's a way in which we will have a society that will be able to adapt to and embrace the diversity that is our demographic inevitability. And tell me about some of your biggest wins or the areas in which you've made most progress on this. In the last few years. With regard to jerrymandering, we have focused on the creation of these nonpartisan commissions, you know, to take the line drawing responsibility out of the hands of interested politicians and put it in the hands of nonpartisan commissions. We have put them in place in Michigan, in Utah, Colorado, in Missouri protected the one that exists in Arizona, the one in California, and so that is a big plus. We've had litigation victories in North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Virginia that have allowed for the drawing of lines already that are more fair. And we also have a thing called All on the Line, which is our advocacy program where we have gotten really substantial numbers of people all around the country to focus on this issue. I mean, people think, you know, jerrymandering, redistricting, it's kind of wonky. But the reality is, if you care about things like criminal justice reform, if you care about a woman's right to choose, if you care about a climate, if you care about healthcare, all those things are decided by state legislatures, and if they are jerrymandered, you will end up with representatives or beholden to the special interests as opposed to the people. So if you care about those issues, you need to care about redistrictating. You know, it's interesting. I don't think people even really appreciate that even New York was a pre clearance state, you know, before Shelby County, and so we've had problems, you know, with the franchise, not just sort of in the places where we immediately think of and you've just talked about, you know, a huge diversity of states in which you've been working really hard. Yeah. No, that's exactly right. I mean, you know, people in the nineteen sixty five Voting Rights A focused on states of the old Confederates primarily, but there were other parts of the nation, New York among them that were pre arans jurisdictions. Uh. And New York was actually a state that was on our watch list. You know, we have a list of target states and then we have a watch list. You had nothing but same day voting in New York. You know, for for as long as we can remember, you think New York progressive state. Um, you know, a leading state when it comes to getting government right. Um, there were some real inadequacies when it came to voting in New York until you know, I guess the last couple of years and New York slipped off that list. And you know, reforms have been put in place, but you know, New York, it was always kind of a particular interest to me that, you know, my home state get it right as well. Yeah, I mean I'm sort of mortified that we should be on a watch list, and yet I see it. You know, we have closed primaries, which you know, I think have the effect of disenfranchising people. I think we have a lot to work through. I mean, I like to think of what I'm doing now really as a continuation tally of the work that we did together, you know, at the at the Justice Department, voting rights, criminal justice reform. I mean, he's a things that you know, I think probably attracted you to the office, and things that you certainly worked on when you were with me, you know, fighting for criminal justice reform. I mean, you know, you remember I gave that speech about the broken criminal justice system, calling out putting in place that's smart on crime and issue that was back in twenty thirteen, and so I think in some ways, you know, the country's catching up to that which you and I worked on, you know, many years ago. I mean, when we talked about criminal justice reform back then, there was not a lot of voices out there with us. But I think there's a moral component to it. But there's all it's also good law enforcement to have a system that people believe in, you know, I think that's right. You know, I often find now, Eric that so many of the things that people are talking about are just in a different vocabulary from what you had laid out. You know, at this point, almost a decade ago. You know, now it's very fashionable to talk about progressive prosecution. I don't think we had that formulation, but you you had already put your foot down to say that all of us are actually safer when the system is more ethical and more fair, and is sensitive to racial disparities, and to you know, making sure that the poor are treated fairly. You know, all of these sort of building blocks of now what it means to be a sensitive and progressive prosecutor. And to me, one of the challenges right now, in this moment that we are in around criminal justice reform is, you know, I think people are so angry at you know, justifiably so that the focus is on what should we stop doing? Right, It's always what are the cases we need to stop ringing? Where is the place where we need to shrink our footprint, you know, everything on the side of less less law enforcement. And I think that true reform also must answer the question of who are we not looking out for? How are we not using our resources to help the most vulnerable. What are the cases that we could have been making all those years instead of those cases that weren't advancing anybody's public safety? You know, what is our job as prosecutors not just to say, well, let's stand down from certain prosecutions, but to actually have a robust prosecution agenda. No, I think that's right. I think the way you formulated is exactly right. It's not only a question of what is it what are you not going to do? The other questions what are you going to do? You know, prosecutors have enormous amounts of power. You have the ability to separate people from their property, separate people from their liberty. You can hold people and entities accountable. The question is, you know, you have limited resources, finite amount of attention. How are you going to use that power? And yeah, there is a legitimate question about whether or not things have been done to access when it comes to the prosecution of status crimes, you know, certain drug crimes. That's fine, But the question also is for all people who seek these offices or have that power, what are you going to do? How are you going to use that power to enhance the day to day lives of the people that you serve. If you keep those questions in mind, I think he drives you. Yeah, And I wonder what the next piece of that is in terms of community engagement, which you know is something that I know you have been thinking of about how can we sort of help people to feel connected to the project of law enforcement in the way that you have just described it, to not feel like it's it's outside and sort of invasive force, but actually really standing with you. People ask me, you know, all the time I've been a judge, definitely, attorney general, US attorney attorney, You've always asked me, what's your best job, and expect me to say, you know, being attorney general. And it was a lot about I like about being Attorney general. I not to be in the president's cabinet, you know, not go all around the world. Best job I ever had US Attorney Washington, DC. That person is basically because Washington's not a state, US attorney is basically like the DA Washington d seen. One of the things that I decided to do was to try to at the office to the people. Traditionally, the US Attorney's office had been something that was pretty remote, had no connections to the communities that it served, and so we put together a whole plan. As a person who's designated as a community outreach officer, I went to I don't know how many meetings, church basements and people's living rooms just to give them a sense that, you know, they were being listened to, and they were because the interesting part about that interaction is that you heard from people about, you know, things that were affecting them in real time. I mean, you know, real concerns. It wasn't theoretical. They're saying, you know, I have a problem with somebody's dealing drugs at eight o'clock on this corner, garbage dumping. You know, you really had it an opportunity to think about how you wanted to prioritize that power that I had as as the US Attorney. So anybody who was a prosecutor appointed as I was, or elected, you have to be in touch with connected to the people that you served, and they have to see you because the reality is that unless there is that kind of trust, that notion of engagement, you're not going to get the cooperation that you need from people. It's a logical thing. What's the point, you know, why am I engaged with you, Why am I going to share information with you. On the other hand, if you're a known entity, if you're known as somebody who cares, you will see the level of cooperation go up. And that at the end of the day, keeps everybody more safe, including people in law enforcement. I mean, you know, people who understand this, This progressive prosecution model not only protects people in distressed communities, it also protects people in law enforcement who serve in those communities. Yeah. You know, the blessing of this being an elected position is that it does push you to go out there in the way that you've described. And you know, I'll just tell you my very first foray out into the community as a candidate. I went to a public house and complex in northern Manhattan, and I expected to are certain things about physical safety, you know, And I asked, what are the things that you're worried about, just from my experience and doing cases in some of these complexes and what I knew about the stats. And it was almost like a setup. Eric, Everything I heard was about something else. All everyone wanted to tell me about was about fraud that they were experiencing. And the seniors, particularly in their houses were experiencing through the phone and computer all these scams that had cropped up because of the virus, people promising to sell them, you know, a cure, a vaccine, some kind of public benefit that they could get if they just handed over some private information. And that was an important learning experience for me. I mean, they what they were reporting is what was important to them. And that's precisely why going through the process of getting elected I think is important. Is precisely why you know, somebody like you I think would be good in that office, and you have those sensitivities, that ability to receive that kind of information, then formulate policy on the basis of what you receive, and then with all due respect. You know, a lot of my friends in the academic world who don't live in these communities and who don't know what people are really focused upon. Everybody wants a fair criminal justice and there's no question about that. People need to be treated with dignity and with respect. And you know, my hope would be that you know, you'll get the opportunity to serve in a position that you see it was. I'm pretty confident, I'm totally confident that if you are the next DA in Manhattan. You'll bring you all the stuff that you know I thought was great about you, and maybe want to hire you to the job, and you'll have that sense of community involvement that I think will make you a good prosecutor. From my perspective, the things that people say are good about progressive prosecutors simply make you a good prosecutor. I agree with that, and I think it actually it obscures when you use that language and you make it sound like a small club. It obscures what is the responsibility of the legion or prosecutors all around the country. I mean, you were trying to and you did lead thousands of prosecutors around the country, you know, in their core mission, which is really what we are describing here. And I hope that I can bring that learning to Manhattan, if you don't mind, I just want to ask you to me. I can't get out of my head this phrase performative morning. You know, the very critical way in which you talked about the reaction to Congressman Lewis's death and the talk without action, and it was really an opportunity for you to reflect on leadership. And I wonder if you might say, what is a good leader in the mind of Eric Holder's interesting question. You know, I mean, I think that good leaders are people who have the courage to do things that are maybe going to be unpopular or that are going to be in advance of where you know, the people are. I think about Roosevelt getting the country ready for World War Two when the nation was still very much isolationist. We had a very crap after you know, do that people have the courage to challenge the status quo. You know, doctor King, you know, he did that at great risk, and people tend to forget. You know, we now we have a national holiday for him. When he died. He was a very unpopular figure Act of Gallipole, so he only had approval ratings like in the thirties because he was seen as a rabble rouser, a person who would have taken the fight outside the South to the North, who talked against the Vietnam War. So the ability to have some kind of some foresight mixed in with a good dose of courage, and then people who also never lose the common touch. You don't, you know, separate yourself from the people you're supposed to serve. You've got to always be in touch. You know, you don't arrogant about a view of you know, I know what's best, I know what the priorities are to be. You know, you ought to have, you know, an agenda certainly a set of priorities, but that is always subject to change, and a lot of that change I think can come from that interact with you know, with the people that that you serve. Let me just ask you in closing, what are some of your hopes or ambitions for the National Criminal Justice Reform agenda? Now that we are, you know, on the brink of a new administration. Trust, trust, trust and trust. I mean, that's the thing that we need to focus on. How is it that we build up trust between people in communities of color, people in distressed communities. How do you build up that level of trust between those people and people in law enforcement? You know, if you focus on that, you know, building up trust, that'll steer you to the mechanisms that need to need to occur. You're listening to people again, builds up trust, you know, Eric. I also I'm struck by the fact that that I hadn't really thought about that you really were kind of like the da of Washington because of the funny politics of Washington, and that, unlike other federal prosecutors, you really were in touch with communities. You know, often federal prosecution can be at a little bit more of a remove, and maybe that has anchored you more than I had ever really appreciated. As the US Attorney in DC, you're dealing with everything from really petty misdemeanors, you know, all the way up to the really most sophisticated political corruption cases. And the largest part of the office, it's why it's the largest US Attorney's office in the country, have the greatest number of people in the office on the local side, and that's that to me, was the stuff that was actually the most interesting because you could actually see the changes in neighborhoods, see the changes in the relationships between prosecutors and the people they served, between police officers and the people they served as a result of the policies that we put in place. I loved working for you in the Temple of Justice, but I this for me, being on the ground and just seeing the texture of what we do is gratifying. I find in a very different way as the US Attorney the DA, you can really change things people can see from an election positive difference in their lives. Hearing is produced in partnership with Pushkin Industries. Our producers are Sam Dingman and Camille Baptista. Our engineer is Evan Viola. Special thanks to Malcolm Gladwell and Jacob Weisberg. This podcast is paid for by New Yorkers for Tally. To learn more about Eric's work to protect voting rights, please visit Democratic Redistricting dot com. I am running to be District Attorney of Manhattan and to set a national example in delivering safety, fairness, and justice for all, especially our most vulnerable. If you like what you've heard, go to Tali farda dot com to learn more about my campaign. I'm Tali Farhadien Weinstein. Thank you for listening. I'll see you next time on Hearing and