Host Simon Spungin is joined by Haaretz’s senior intelligence analyst Yossi Melman to discuss the latest developments in the shadow war between Israel and Iran, the nuclear talks in Vienna, and Jonathan Pollard’s excruciating and arguably antisemitic Independence Day interview.

Host Simon Spungin is joined by Haaretz&rsquo;s senior intelligence analyst <a href="http://htz.li/mlm">Yossi Melman</a> to discuss the latest developments in the shadow war between Israel and Iran, the nuclear talks in Vienna, and Jonathan Pollard&rsquo;s excruciating and arguably antisemitic Independence Day interview.

From Haaretz – Israel's oldest daily newspaper – a weekly podcast in English on Israel, the Middle East and the Jewish World, hosted by Allison Kaplan Sommer.

From Haaretz – Israel's oldest daily newspaper – a weekly podcast in English on Israel, the Middle East and the Jewish World, hosted by Allison Kaplan Sommer.

Your audio guide to Israel, the Middle East and the Jewish World.

Haaretz Podcast

From Haaretz – Israel's oldest daily newspaper – the Haaretz weekly podcast in English on Israel, the Middle East and the Jewish World, hosted by Allison Kaplan Sommer. 

From Haaretz – Israel's oldest daily newspaper – the Haaretz weekly podcast in English on Israel, the Middle East and the Jewish World, hosted by Allison Kaplan Sommer.

Israel’s Iran-baiting could backfire on Bibi: Listen to Yossi Melman

If they ever imagined that they were dwelling in an ivory tower, the fierce and sometimes violent confrontations on their campuses have knocked academics who teach about Israel and the Middle East into a harsh new reality, Professor Dov Waxman, director of UCLA's Nazarian Center for Israel Studies told the Haaretz Podcast on the eve of a charged graduation week for his campus.

Waxman described the clash last month between pro-Palestinian protestors and Israel advocacy groups who came to confront them – and how he and other professors found themselves keeping the two sides apart with campus security nowhere to be found.

"I had felt like it was necessary to be there to observe and to try to be a witness and to provide an account, if that was needed. I didn't imagine that I'd be kind of brought into these protests or that I'd be required at all to keep protesters apart," Waxman said in a conversation with podcast host Allison Kaplan Sommer.

"Ultimately," he said "being there on the campus, particularly in the hours before the big protest encampment was dismantled by the police and "see[ing] hundreds of heavily armed riot police lining up on what is normally the quad in the center of our campus where students hang out" and "the world's media converging on our campus" was a "disturbing' and "very, very surreal experience."

Also on the podcast, Haaretz correspondent Linda Dayan recounts her reporting from campus protests at several California universities.

She said that it was impossible to paint a simple picture of the typical campus protester or generalize about their messaging. Some programming criticizing Israel was no more extreme than what one might find in an Israeli newspaper, she said. Other sessions contained inflammatory and even antisemitic content.

"I've gone to magnificently different events on the same campus at the same encampment with wildly different messaging," Dayan said.

If they ever imagined that they were dwelling in an ivory tower, the fierce and sometimes violent confrontations on their campuses have knocked academics who teach about Israel and the Middle East into a harsh new reality, Professor Dov Waxman, director of UCLA's Nazarian Center for Israel Studies told the Haaretz Podcast on the eve of a charged graduation week for his campus.
Waxman described the <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2024-05-01/ty-article/.premium/violent-clashes-erupt-at-ucla-between-pro-palestinian-pro-israel-protesters/0000018f-33ac-d8c4-afef-3ffc8d150000">clash last month</a> between pro-Palestinian protestors and Israel advocacy groups who came to confront them – and how he and other professors found themselves keeping the two sides apart with <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2024-05-23/ty-article/ucla-police-chief-reassigned-following-mob-attack-on-pro-palestinian-protesters/0000018f-a308-d8a2-a3cf-a78bc5ef0000">campus security nowhere</a> to be found.
"I had felt like it was necessary to be there to observe and to try to be a witness and to provide an account, if that was needed. I didn't imagine that I'd be kind of brought into these protests or that I'd be required at all to keep protesters apart," Waxman said in a conversation with podcast host Allison Kaplan Sommer.
"Ultimately," he said "being there on the campus, particularly in the hours before the big protest encampment was dismantled by the police and "see[ing] hundreds of heavily armed riot police lining up on what is normally the quad in the center of our campus where students hang out" and "the world's media converging on our campus" was a "disturbing' and "very, very surreal experience."
Also on the podcast, Haaretz correspondent Linda Dayan recounts her <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2024-05-31/ty-article-magazine/.premium/as-gaza-war-lingers-israel-studies-professors-on-u-s-campuses-throw-out-the-syllabus/0000018f-c985-d4da-a58f-ffdd73dc0000">reporting from campus protests</a> at several California universities.
She said that it was impossible to paint a simple picture of the typical campus protester or generalize about their messaging. Some programming criticizing Israel was no more extreme than what one might find in an Israeli newspaper, she said. Other sessions contained inflammatory and even antisemitic content.
"I've gone to magnificently different events on the same campus at the same encampment with wildly different messaging," Dayan said.

'It's striking how different Israel-Palestine discourse is in the classroom and out of it'

There is "an abyss" between how the U.S. and Israeli governments treat the families of Israeli hostages held in Gaza, says Prof. Jonathan Dekel-Chen, whose son Sagui, 35, was kidnapped by Hamas on October 7 while trying to protect his family and other residents of Kibbutz Nir Oz. Sagui Dekel-Chen's wife, Avital, gave birth to the couple's third daughter in January.

Speaking with Haaretz Podcast host Allison Kaplan Sommer, the dual Israeli-U.S. citizen – who hasn't received new information about his son in eight months – compared the "inexplicably infuriating" behavior of members of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government with their American counterparts.

Dekel-Chen said he has felt "privileged" to receive the attention and sympathy offered by U.S. President Joe Biden and his administration – along with the other dual citizens caught in the hostage nightmare. He also noted that he felt similar "wall to wall" support from members of Congress, "regardless of what their views are on the conduct of Israel's war."

In Israel, by contrast, "we've had no direct communication from senior ministers, nothing – it's unthinkable in a small intimate country like ours." He suggested that perhaps more sympathy and support would be forthcoming if those whose communities and lives were "destroyed" by the events of October 7 had come from the right-wing religious constituencies that make up Netanyahu's governing coalition.

While Biden has put another cease-fire and hostage deal on the table, urging Netanyahu and Hamas to agree to its terms, "Israel's government has a distorted view of what victory is," according to Dekel-Chen. "This war is more like a crusade ... its goals are dictated by the fringe, radical, far right."

On the podcast, Dekel-Chen also explains why, as a Hebrew University history professor, he feels that comparisons between October 7 and the Holocaust are inaccurate and dangerous. "Other than the death on that day, there are no real similarities," he says, "and it simply serves as a much too-easy-explanation for a horrific day and lets people off the hook who should be held accountable. It invokes some greater force that's so far beyond our control that it was almost inevitable. That's absolute nonsense."

There is "an abyss" between how the U.S. and Israeli governments treat the families of Israeli hostages held in Gaza, says Prof. Jonathan Dekel-Chen, whose son Sagui, 35, was kidnapped by Hamas on October 7 while trying to protect his family and other residents of <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-24/ty-article-magazine/.premium/how-could-israels-army-abandon-this-kibbutz-for-seven-hours-on-october-7/0000018f-0076-db42-a99f-adff41440000">Kibbutz Nir Oz</a>. Sagui Dekel-Chen's wife, Avital, gave birth to the couple's third daughter in January.
Speaking with Haaretz Podcast host Allison Kaplan Sommer, the dual Israeli-U.S. citizen – who hasn't received new information about his son in eight months – compared the "inexplicably infuriating" behavior of members of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government with their American counterparts.
Dekel-Chen said he has felt "privileged" to receive the attention and sympathy offered by U.S. President Joe Biden and his administration – along with the other dual citizens caught in the hostage nightmare. He also noted that he felt similar "wall to wall" support from members of Congress, "regardless of what their views are on the conduct of Israel's war."
In Israel, by contrast, "we've had no direct communication from senior ministers, nothing – it's unthinkable in a small intimate country like ours." He suggested that perhaps more sympathy and support would be forthcoming if those whose communities and lives were "destroyed" by the events of October 7 had come from the right-wing religious constituencies that make up Netanyahu's governing coalition.
While Biden has put another <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-01/ty-article/.premium/bidens-proposal-offers-hope-to-hostage-families-but-falls-short-of-netanyahus-promises/0000018f-d4ef-dd44-a3ef-d7ef9eca0000">cease-fire and hostage deal</a> on the table, urging Netanyahu and Hamas to agree to its terms, "Israel's government has a distorted view of what victory is," according to Dekel-Chen. "This war is more like a crusade ... its goals are dictated by the <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-01/ty-article/.premium/biden-deal-was-coordinated-with-israel-u-s-fears-backlash-by-netanyahu-far-right-allies/0000018f-d416-d513-a9af-f67694290000">fringe, radical, far right</a>."
On the podcast, Dekel-Chen also explains why, as a Hebrew University history professor, he feels that <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-01-30/ty-article-opinion/.premium/does-the-hamas-massacre-of-october-7-echo-the-holocaust/0000018d-5abf-d997-adff-dffffbc90000">comparisons between October 7 and the Holocaust are inaccurate</a> and dangerous. "Other than the death on that day, there are no real similarities," he says, "and it simply serves as a much too-easy-explanation for <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/haaretz-explains/2023-11-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/what-hamas-meticulous-battle-plan-for-kibbutz-nir-oz-looked-like/0000018b-b4b7-dea2-a9bf-f4bf38970000">a horrific day</a> and lets people off the hook who should be held accountable. It invokes some greater force that's so far beyond our control that it was almost inevitable. That's absolute nonsense."

'Israel's government has a distorted view of victory. This war is more like a crusade for them'

Rabbi Delphine Horveilleur, considered one of the most powerful and prominent voices of French Jewry, spoke with Haaretz Podcast host Allison Kaplan Sommer during her first visit to Israel since the October 7 attacks and the beginning of Israel's war in Gaza, and discussed the way in which for Diaspora Jews, the attacks meant "that our refuge isn't safe anymore."

Horveilleur describes 'a feeling of vulnerability and exile that came back to us. And even in Israel, there's a feeling that we're all in a way in a kind of 'galut" - exile - and there is an awareness of brokenness in us."

At the same time, she says, the current situation presents an opportunity for a "renewed conversation" between Israel and the Diaspora. She feels Israelis, who are usually "focused on strength," are currently more able to relate to feelings of "fragility and the vulnerability," that Diaspora Jews deal with more openly.

Contemplating the rise of antisemitism around the world, Horveilleur says confronting people about their antisemitism is "totally useless."

"It never even makes them aware of the problem," she expands. "Many people say 'I am not an antisemite' but they speak in an antisemitic language, it's almost an ancient antisemitic tongue that people use without knowing."

Also on the podcast, Hebrew University professor Tamar Megiddo, an expert in public international law, lays out the challenges that face Israel in the International Court of Justice and International Criminal Court. Megiddo discusses the likely consequences of the request for arrest warrants for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Yoav Gallant on charges of violating international humanitarian law.

Rabbi Delphine Horveilleur, considered one of the most <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-05-19/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/the-french-female-rabbi-who-looks-death-in-the-eye/00000188-34d0-d7fd-adec-fffb19f80000">powerful and prominent voices of French Jewry</a>, spoke with Haaretz Podcast host Allison Kaplan Sommer during her first visit to Israel since the October 7 attacks and the beginning of Israel's war in Gaza, and discussed the way in which for Diaspora Jews, the attacks meant "that our refuge isn't safe anymore."
Horveilleur describes 'a feeling of vulnerability and exile that came back to us. And even in Israel, there's a feeling that we're all in a way in a kind of 'galut" - exile - and there is an awareness of brokenness in us."
At the same time, she says, the current situation presents an opportunity for a "renewed conversation" between Israel and the Diaspora. She feels Israelis, who are usually "focused on strength," are currently more able to relate to feelings of "fragility and the vulnerability," that Diaspora Jews deal with more openly.
Contemplating the rise of antisemitism around the world, Horveilleur says confronting people about their antisemitism is "totally useless."
"It never even makes them aware of the problem," she expands. "Many people say 'I am not an antisemite' but they speak in an antisemitic language, it's almost an ancient antisemitic tongue that people use without knowing."
Also on the podcast, Hebrew University professor Tamar Megiddo, an expert in public international law, lays out the challenges that face Israel in the <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-24/ty-article/.premium/icj-to-deliver-decision-on-emergency-measures-against-israel/0000018f-a694-d476-a7df-e7fd24770000">International Court of Justice</a> and International Criminal Court. Megiddo discusses the likely consequences of the <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-21/ty-article/.premium/explained-what-would-international-arrest-warrants-against-netanyahu-and-gallant-mean/0000018f-9753-d35f-a1df-dfdbd6fa0000">request for arrest warrants </a>for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Yoav Gallant on charges of violating international humanitarian law.

Israel’s Iran-baiting could backfire on Bibi: Listen to Yossi Melman

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