Host Simon Spungin is joined by senior intelligence analyst Yossi Melman, opinions editor Esther Solomon, and tech and cyber editor Omer Benjakob. We discuss the fallout from the Pegasus Project and ask: What limitations does and should Israel place on the export of these technologies? Did Benjamin Netanyahu act as a travelling salesman for the NSO Group? And will internationalpressure lead to a change in Israeli policy?

Host Simon Spungin is joined by senior intelligence analyst <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/misc/writers/WRITER-1.4968141">Yossi Melman</a>, <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-i-was-targeted-by-nso-israel-is-helping-modi-undermine-india-s-democracy-1.10028100">opinions</a> editor <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/misc/writers/WRITER-1.4968423">Esther Solomon</a>, and tech and cyber editor <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/tech-news/.premium-israel-s-problem-is-thinking-ben-jerry-s-is-the-big-story-not-nso-1.10031207">Omer Benjakob</a>. We discuss the fallout from the <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/misc/tags/TAG-NSO-1.10010576">Pegasus Project</a> and ask: What <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-spyware-revelations-place-israel-on-the-bad-guys-side-1.10013939">limitations does</a> and should <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/was-israel-aware-of-nso-clients-surveillance-targets-1.10022647">Israel place</a> on the export of these technologies? Did Benjamin <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/tech-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-where-bibi-went-nso-followed-how-israel-pushed-cyberweapons-sales-1.10015034">Netanyahu act as a travelling salesman</a> for the <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-the-far-reaching-dark-side-of-israeli-high-tech-1.10013562">NSO Group</a>? And will <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-u-s-lawmakers-demand-action-after-spyware-allegations-against-israel-s-nso-1.10023611">international</a> <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-in-call-with-bennett-macron-expresses-concern-over-alleged-targeting-using-pegasus-1.10026374">pressure</a> lead to a change in <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/israel-backed-nso-pegasus-is-a-clear-present-danger-to-democracy-around-the-world-1.10016269">Israeli policy</a>?

From Haaretz – Israel's oldest daily newspaper – a weekly podcast in English on Israel, the Middle East and the Jewish World, hosted by Allison Kaplan Sommer.

From Haaretz – Israel's oldest daily newspaper – a weekly podcast in English on Israel, the Middle East and the Jewish World, hosted by Allison Kaplan Sommer.

Your audio guide to Israel, the Middle East and the Jewish World.

Haaretz Podcast

From Haaretz – Israel's oldest daily newspaper – the Haaretz weekly podcast in English on Israel, the Middle East and the Jewish World, hosted by Allison Kaplan Sommer. 

From Haaretz – Israel's oldest daily newspaper – the Haaretz weekly podcast in English on Israel, the Middle East and the Jewish World, hosted by Allison Kaplan Sommer.

How Pegasus spyware became part of Israel’s diplomatic arsenal

Iran's firing of hundreds of drones and missiles at Israel on Saturday night marked a new escalation in a simmering war usually fought by proxies miles from Tehran. Iran's strike, which was largely intercepted by Israel and its allies, leaves lingering questions of global significance.

On a special edition of the podcast, Haaretz reporter Linda Dayan speaks to Haaretz Editor-in-Chief Aluf Benn, who explains how this unprecedented attack came to be – and what might follow. Although this particular barrage failed to inflict mass casualties, in its aftermath, "Israeli decision-makers" must now think "not twice, but ten times, about the consequences" of striking Iranian targets or their proxies in the future. "After October 7, I think we all need to be very skeptical of premediated military outcomes, both for Israel and for Hamas as well."

If you want to fight Iran, Benn says, "you need the early warning capabilities, if not the defensive capabilities, of your allies in the region and first and foremost the United States." But the same alliances that helped Israel are absent for Hamas. Iran's actions "shows Hamas that, at this stage at least, they're still friendless. Nobody is going to come help them," Benn says. "They did not say once that if Israel would be willing to stop the fire in Gaza… they would not retaliate."

As Israelis are worrying about a new front to this war, so, it seems, are Iranians. Arash Azizi contributing writer at The Atlantic and author of "What Iranians Want: Women, Life, Freedom," explains how average Iranians are responding to the threat. "Average Iranians have a lot of problems – economic, the repression they face from the government," he says. "The last thing they can afford is to enter a war with Israel, a country for which there is very little hostility amongst the Iranian public."

"Iranians don't have that hostility to Israel that I think you do have in other Arab countries – it's just not the same thing for us." The warmongers and champions of the regime's aggression toward the Jewish State are a small minority, he says.

The very day of Iran's launches at Israel, the regime ramped up its persecution of women who do not cover their hair, Azizi notes. "The regime will use whatever this conflict is going to be to repress critique," he says, but at the same time, "it's a new vista for the Iranian opposition to oppose the war – and also to oppose this regime that has brought nothing good for Iranians, and has threatened our country with a war that none of us want."

Iran's firing of hundreds of drones and missiles at Israel on Saturday night marked a new escalation in a simmering war usually fought by proxies miles from Tehran. Iran's strike, which was largely intercepted by Israel and its allies, leaves lingering questions of global significance.
On a special edition of the podcast, Haaretz reporter Linda Dayan speaks to Haaretz Editor-in-Chief Aluf Benn, who explains how this unprecedented attack came to be – and what might follow. Although this particular barrage <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-15/ty-article/u-s-sources-half-of-iranian-ballistic-missiles-failed-idf-aircraft-damaged/0000018e-e0d0-d7e5-a1fe-e7d1bf3a0000">failed to inflict mass casualties</a>, in its aftermath, "Israeli decision-makers" must now think "not twice, but ten times, <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-16/ty-article/.premium/israel-must-weigh-response-to-irans-unprecedented-attack-against-the-threat-of-hezbollah/0000018e-e366-d071-a5be-e7e678700000">about the consequences</a>" of striking Iranian targets or their proxies in the future. "After October 7, I think we all need to be very skeptical of premediated military outcomes, both for Israel and for Hamas as well."
If you want to fight Iran, Benn says, "you need the early warning capabilities, if not the defensive capabilities, of your <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2024-04-15/ty-article/.premium/arab-states-that-stood-up-to-iran-wont-be-on-board-to-assist-an-israeli-counterstrike/0000018e-e0df-d4da-a18f-ecfffe8e0000">allies in the region</a> and first and foremost the United States." But the same alliances that helped Israel are absent for Hamas. Iran's actions "shows Hamas that, at this stage at least, they're still friendless. Nobody is going to come help them," Benn says. "They did not say once that if Israel would be willing to stop the fire in Gaza… they would not retaliate."
As Israelis are worrying about a new front to this war, so, it seems, are Iranians. Arash Azizi contributing writer at <a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/04/iran-war-israel-missile-strikes-drones/678066/">The Atlantic</a> and author of "What Iranians Want: Women, Life, Freedom," explains how average Iranians are responding to the threat. "Average Iranians have a lot of problems – economic, the repression they face from the government," he says. "The last thing they can afford is to enter a war with Israel, a country for which there is very little hostility amongst the Iranian public."
"Iranians don't have that hostility to Israel that I think you do have in <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2022-05-24/ty-article-opinion/.highlight/in-jordan-the-antisemitism-is-undisguised-and-everywhere/00000180-f6d4-d18b-a787-f7fde1e40000">other Arab countries</a> – it's just not the same thing for us." The warmongers and champions of the regime's aggression toward the Jewish State are a small minority, he says.
The very day of Iran's launches at Israel, the regime ramped up its persecution of women who do not cover their hair, Azizi notes. "The regime will use whatever this conflict is going to be to repress critique," he says, but at the same time, "it's a new vista for the Iranian opposition to oppose the war – and also to oppose this regime that has brought nothing good for Iranians, and has threatened our country with a war that none of us want."

'If One of Those Missiles Hit Tel Aviv We Would Be in a Very Different, Devastating Situation'

Six months into Israel's conflict with Hamas, the solid support U.S. President Joe Biden's White House gave to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government has taken a serious hit.

Following the deaths of seven World Central Kitchen humanitarian aid workers, a clash over a possible military operation in Rafah, and Israel's failure to provide a vision for the "day after" the war in Gaza, there has been a "precipitous drop" in the standing of the Israeli prime minister both in the White House and Congress, Haaretz Washington correspondent Ben Samuels tells Haaretz Podcast host Allison Kaplan Sommer.

"World Central Kitchen founder Jose Andres is a close friend of Joe Biden. And when seven of his employees are killed, that made it personal for the president in a way that unfortunately 30,000 Palestinian casualties has not been," he said, sparking an unprecedented tough phone call from the president to Netanyahu in which Biden "really put his foot down."

Behind the scenes at the White House, Samuels said, officials are "incredibly frustrated, and I think they feel a little personally betrayed by Netanyahu as well.

"I think they really believe that they have been going out on a limb providing coverage and support when it is becoming extremely unpopular both within the United States and in the international community. So I think there is a very real sense of resentment," Samuels said.

Also on the podcast, Hadar Susskind, President and CEO of Americans for Peace Now discusses his organization's support for Congress conditioning aid to Israel, a stance that has traditionally been controversial within the world of American Jewish advocacy groups but is gaining traction on Capitol Hill.

As Susskind sees it, "aid to Israel is endangered" because Israel's behavior in Gaza and the West Bank "often does not align with American policy and American values. When that happens, you will see far greater pushback, as we are seeing right now [with] people saying aid should be cut."

As a result, "if you want there to be a path for U.S. aid to Israel to continue, that aid, like all the other aid we give every other country, "needs to be conditioned."

Susskind, a longtime progressive activist in Washington, also discussed the perception that there is an epidemic of antisemitism on the U.S. left.

"I still think it is overwhelmingly actually on the far right," he contends. "That's not to say it doesn't exist on the left. It does, and I've seen it, but... so much of what is reported breathlessly as horrible antisemitism on college campuses is college students chanting 'Free Palestine.' You may dislike that – it might make you or your kid on campus uncomfortable – but I personally don't believe that saying 'Free Palestine' is itself an antisemitic act."

Six months into Israel's conflict with Hamas, the solid support U.S. President Joe Biden's White House gave to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government has taken a serious hit.
Following the deaths of seven <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-02/ty-article/.premium/idf-looking-into-hamas-claim-that-israeli-strike-killed-world-central-kitchen-aid-workers/0000018e-9c11-d64e-afce-ffb5c08d0000">World Central Kitchen humanitarian aid workers</a>, a clash over a possible military operation in Rafah, and Israel's failure to provide a vision for the "day after" the war in Gaza, there has been a "precipitous drop" in the standing of the Israeli prime minister both in the White House and Congress, Haaretz Washington correspondent Ben Samuels tells Haaretz Podcast host Allison Kaplan Sommer.
"World Central Kitchen founder Jose Andres is a close friend of Joe Biden. And when seven of his employees are killed, that made it personal for the president in a way that unfortunately 30,000 Palestinian casualties has not been," he said, sparking an unprecedented tough phone call from the president to Netanyahu in which Biden "really put his foot down."
Behind the scenes at the White House, Samuels said, officials are "incredibly frustrated, and I think they feel a little personally betrayed by Netanyahu as well.
"I think they really believe that they have been going out on a limb providing coverage and support when it is becoming extremely <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/haaretz-today/2024-04-03/ty-article/.highlight/was-wisconsins-pro-palestinian-protest-vote-bad-news-for-biden/0000018e-a4ea-dfed-ad9f-aefbf8130000">unpopular both within the United States</a> and in the international community. So I think there is a very real sense of resentment," Samuels said.
Also on the podcast, Hadar Susskind, President and CEO of <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2020-12-04/ty-article/.highlight/americans-for-peace-no-refuses-to-adopt-weaponized-definition-of-antisemitism/0000017f-db45-df9c-a17f-ff5dbd670000">Americans for Peace Now</a> discusses his organization's support for Congress conditioning aid to Israel, a stance that has traditionally been controversial within the world of American Jewish advocacy groups but is gaining traction on Capitol Hill.
As Susskind sees it, "aid to Israel is endangered" because Israel's behavior in Gaza and the West Bank "often does not align with American policy and American values. When that happens, you will see far greater pushback, as we are seeing right now [with] people saying aid should be cut."
As a result, "if you want there to be a path for U.S. aid to Israel to continue, that aid, like all the other aid we give every other country, "needs to be conditioned."
Susskind, a longtime progressive activist in Washington, also discussed the perception that there is an epidemic of antisemitism on the U.S. left.
"I still think it is overwhelmingly actually on the far right," he contends. "That's not to say it doesn't exist on the left. It does, and I've seen it, but... so much of what is reported breathlessly as horrible antisemitism on college campuses is college students chanting 'Free Palestine.' You may dislike that – it might make you or your kid on campus uncomfortable – but I personally don't believe that saying 'Free Palestine' is itself an antisemitic act."

'U.S. military aid to Israel is endangered. More people will say it should be cut'

The controversy in Israel over the exemption of ultra-Orthodox yeshiva students from military service "has reached a boiling point," former Haaretz journalist and author Yair Ettinger tells host Allison Kaplan Sommer on the Haaretz Podcast.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has continually delayed confronting the issue in his years in power, Ettinger notes. But this week, the High Court's deadline for either enshrining exemptions in legislation or enlisting yeshiva students expired. And it did so during a war in which Israelis serving in the army have made tremendous sacrifices, and amid severe discontent with Netanyahu's coalition, which depends on ultra-Orthodox support.

And so, Ettinger says, Israelis who disliked but tolerated the ability of the ultra-Orthodox to avoid army service in the past have now "run out of patience."

"There is a big dissonance in Israel right now regarding the Haredim. Why? Because they are at the peak of their political power, and yet they don't share the duties [of defending the country]." On one hand, "they are the government. They have been the senior partners of Netanyahu for many, many years. And now, when we have an existential moment, and we are fighting a really difficult war, they don't pay any price."

Ettinger, author of the book, "Frayed, the Disputes Unraveling Religious Zionists," also looks at how the judicial overhaul battle is inextricably intertwined with the military exemption controversy, and discusses the growing rift in Orthodox society over religion and society, the role of women and tolerance of LGBTQ individuals.

That rift, he says, is exemplified at the Pride Parade each year, where "you can see many religious Zionists marching and many others [among] them protesting against the parade."

He also notes that while the Gaza war has underlined the cracks between secular Israelis and their Diaspora counterparts, "the opposite is true" among the Orthodox. "Today, they are closer than ever," Ettinger says.

The controversy in Israel over the exemption of ultra-Orthodox yeshiva students from military service "has reached a boiling point," former Haaretz journalist and author Yair Ettinger tells host Allison Kaplan Sommer on the Haaretz Podcast.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has continually delayed confronting the issue in his years in power, Ettinger notes. But this week, the <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-27/ty-article/.premium/israeli-ag-opposes-netanyahu-govts-attempt-to-extend-deadline-on-haredi-draft-bill/0000018e-816c-df27-adee-a7feb2b10000">High Court's deadline</a> for either enshrining exemptions in legislation or enlisting yeshiva students expired. And it did so during a war in which Israelis serving in the army have made tremendous sacrifices, and amid severe discontent with Netanyahu's coalition, which depends on ultra-Orthodox support.
And so, Ettinger says, Israelis who disliked but tolerated the ability of the ultra-Orthodox to avoid army service in the past have now "run out of patience."
"There is a big <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-10/ty-article/.premium/chief-rabbi-embodies-haredi-arrogance-toward-needs-of-israeli-society-in-wartime/0000018e-28d7-d152-ad8e-29ff26220000">dissonance in Israel</a> right now regarding the Haredim. Why? Because they are at the peak of their political power, and yet they don't share the duties [of defending the country]." On one hand, "they are the government. They have been the senior partners of Netanyahu for many, many years. And now, when we have an existential moment, and we are fighting a really difficult war, they don't pay any price."
Ettinger, author of the book, "Frayed, the Disputes Unraveling Religious Zionists," also looks at how the judicial overhaul battle is inextricably intertwined with the military exemption controversy, and discusses the growing rift in Orthodox society over religion and society, the role of women and tolerance of LGBTQ individuals.
That rift, he says, is exemplified at the Pride Parade each year, where "you can see many religious Zionists marching and many others [among] them protesting against the parade."
He also notes that while the Gaza war has underlined the cracks between secular Israelis and their Diaspora counterparts, "the opposite is true" among the Orthodox. "Today, they are closer than ever," Ettinger says.

How Pegasus spyware became part of Israel’s diplomatic arsenal

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