HOW DO YOU LEARN TO NOT WISH YOUR EX-HUSBAND DEAD? ft. Angie Pumps Sullivan and Jenn Welch

Published Oct 6, 2023, 4:01 AM

Happy Friday, Fckers! On this week’s episode of Guys We Fcked, Corinne and Krystyna help a listener who has been abusive to her partner in the past. Today’s question to ponder is “What one thing would you want to do for all of eternity?” This week’s guests are JENNIFER WELCH and ANGIE “PUMPS” SULLIVAN, hosts of “I’ve Had It” podcast. The 4 discuss helping a partner recover from addiction, being raised by an atheist mother in the South, and looking for revenge in couples therapy. This eloquent copy was written by Mike “Big Dong” Coscarelli.  

 

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This week’s featured music:

Lillian Leadbetter

https://open.spotify.com/artist/0bgE0I7bibBZPPPBToAZGe?si=1wl9NwAWQqmWQXiZowht5g

Welcome the Guys We Find the Anti slut shaming Podcast. I'm Christina Hutchinson. I'm Kuren Fisher and.

Friends bring us to sludie, your horning and your shame.

Hey with what yes? Okay? Talk about Hey everybody, how you doing? Welcome to another fun filled episode of Guys We It's the Anti slut Chaming Podcast. I'm Karen Fisher, Christina Hutchinson. Welcome to the show. If you want to see us live in New York City, you're going to head over to the link tree links in our bios on Instagram or the Guys We Fucked Instagram and you are going to click on it and then you're gonna go purchase tickets to the Midnight Theater October nineteenth, which is a Thursday shows at nine thirty pm. We've already started, uh moving tickets pretty quickly, so make sure to get on it because these live shows are so fun.

They're so fun.

Mike will be there. Sure you can participate. It's yeah, so fun, and there's two ticket levels, so if you want to be in the front, it's like ten bucks more you can participate, or if you want to say, keep me the fuck away from these ladies, they're out of their minds. Still good seats in the back of the theater, absolutely, and we hope to see you there. If you want to email us it's sorry about last night's show at gmail dot com. This first subject line says, I don't want to be an abuser anymore. Amazing, good work. That's a good place to start. It's going to be a good fall for you.

Hi.

I am a twenty nine year old woman married to a twenty nine year old man, and I have deep anger management issues. To preface this, I'm actively seeking help and have been for the past few years. This actually makes it extremely difficult to recognize my toxic behavior and allow it to bubble over and not feel like the absolute worst piece of shit almost instantaneously, like why the fuck should I get the right to wallow right right?

Anyways?

I have some clinically diagnosed mental issues, and I find it pathetic that I almost always want to use that as a crutch, but I can't. I can't bear the thought of hurting the ones I've loved, but I have and living with it is the hardest part of myself to accept.

And yeah, we got to accept all the parts of ourselves.

I've grown and matured from throwing pots and pans in the street and destroying entire rooms of furniture and walls late teens early twenties, but I still manage to let the heat of anger overtake my entire being to the point of self destruction, as well as physically lashing out on my husband twice in three years. The inner workings of our relationship and our individual past trauma therapy has followed us to give us the space to try and work it out. But this self doubt of am I doing this for the right reason inevitably rears its ugly head into the forefront of my thoughts, and I begin to feel like a manipulator. My parents were in an abusive relationship, and it makes me sick to think I will recycle this horrible coping mechanismanism. I'll cut myself off for now because it's feeling narcissistic. I don't really know why I am writing in this intimate part of myself, but maybe I'm putting my true intentions into the universe to manifest a better outcome. I wanted to write in some perspective from a fucked up brain. I hope it makes sense and opens up some dialogue. PS. I don't excuse domestic violence, and I'm not an apologist what our family looks like most of the time. And then she included photos, so it's very cute.

Yeah.

I like this email a lot because there's a lot of people that are violent towards their partners and towards just objects in their home. And we always hear from the person on the receiving end of the pot being thrown, so I feel like we can understand the trouble and trauma around that. And it's like it's like with sexual assault, Like we hear all the time from people who are sexual assaulted, and I feel like we have a pretty good understanding of like what happens to your psyche, But it's like, what about the person doing the thing, Like what's going on there?

Because that's really where you make some headway.

Yeah, I mean, this is I mean I get because I'm like, I guess you're not really looking looking for advice obviously, like you're working on it. That's incredible. I would be interested. I mean obviously, like part of the it's stopping is you getting to the root of why you feel so angry addressing childhood things in your everyday life. You know, it seems like pretty deep rooted anger. Anger is an interesting one for me because I based on my personality, I think a lot of people would think I'm I'm pretty angry. I'm actually like very rarely angry. I'm very angry about like world issues, but like in my personal like sphere, I don't really feel angry very often. I feel sad. My sadness replaces anger pretty much consistently.

I know you I.

Feel anger a lot more anger and sone is it sucks when it sucks to have your anger. There's so much shame attached to anger that results in childlike being behavior likes tantrums and stuff like you've seen me throwing tantrums, like literally throwing something on the floor like a toddler. It's so embarrassing doing it, but you feel like your body's on fire and you don't know how to like regulate. It's all about like learning I manage it, I imagine with I've never taken anger management classes, but the trauma therapy that I've done is all about grounding your body and really feeling your feet on the floor and like feeling the stillness and a calmness, like kind of going through your through your body in an energy field, and that's really the only way to take it out. But I anger is it's so frustrating because when you feel it come on and you try to repress it, it makes it worse when you try to be like, I'm like road rage.

I get road rage pretty bad. And I the other day this fucking guy.

Oh, people drive like such twats in New York City, And so on a good day, I'm like, all right, Christina, we're not going to get mad. We're just gonna see this as an opportunity to be patient. And I do, and I really do, and it's really valuable.

It's very nice. It's like a nice little like nervous system exercise.

And then other times somebody will drive like a twat and they'll just fucking cut me off like a piece of shit asshole with no blinker and expect me to be like it's so annoying. And then so the other day I rolled down my window. I was like, I'm gonna yell something at you and let's try something new.

So I'd rolled down my window and I said.

I hope you get everything you ever wanted life.

And honestly totally dissolve the anger, because I was like, that's hilarious to yell that, like you want the person to die. Did they have a confused look on their face.

No, they just flicked me off.

They couldn't hear me, but you knew what you were saying. It was for me. It was for me to like, I'm like, what the fuck? Can dissipate this anger immediately? There's not much but laughter can do it.

I just have to.

You know, sometimes if someone tries to make me laugh when I'm mad, I get more mad.

But it's anger is yeah.

Well, also when you talk to therapists. I don't know the specific language, but like basically, in a nutshell, anger is not a core emotion.

It's a set.

Yeah, it's like almost it's like a masking emotion almost.

Yeah, So definitely masks like sadness. Right, it's like a little wall. It's a very protective wall. And it's anger is very energizing. It's very energetic, and I like going fast. I like being energized. I don't like like.

I hate being tired. I fucking hate being tired.

For some reason, I have a real big problem with being tired, and yeah, anger keeps you awake, as simple as that. Interesting a lot of benefits that are aren't actually benefits, but yeah, I guess anger is always well, it masks sadness and a masks shame.

I think it masks shame probably more.

It's interesting because my brother and I were talking a lot about like emotions and like how we show them, like uh, over the past couple of days, and we are always kind of very interested by people who throw things and stuff because like we're like, like we were just not like if we if we throw something in our house growing up, we would be in so much fucking trouble. So like we never have done that in our lives. Was like it just since we were kids. It was never on the table. We would just like the thought never even crossed my mind because of the amount of trouble I would have been in doing that.

I saw my parents throw shit and scream at each other. Ye slam doors. I would get in trouble for slamming doors, But then my parents would do it all the time, So like, fuck you, you fucking hypocrites, Like it made me so angry how big hypocritical they were they were, and my dad had such a wild he didn't he doesn't anymore. I mean, I haven't talked to him in a while, but like, you know, towards like my late twenties and thirties, his temper is dissult.

But when I was a kid, oh my god, that man's temper was.

It was scary, like I would he would chase me around the house if I was gonna fucking kill me.

And so I just witnessed it. So I'm like, oh, this is okay.

Right, Like it's just like, well, I guess this is how we deal with our feelings.

Just throw shit and yell. But I don't like yelling, yelling thing I don't like. I don't mind yell like I'm I'm very like I'm I don't like love it all the time, but like I'm all so not like when it. I feel like there is a time and a place to yell, like people like I don't you know, like maybe not like in a professional setting. I'm not gonna name names of people who do I think you know who I'm talking about, but but I do think that every now and then, like people who say, like we never yell at each other, like well, I think in a relationship like once in a bloom loom, Yeah, you just passionate need to yell at each other. Yeah, not all the time, but right now and again like yeah, there's a fucking like if you're there. I think there's almost something more psychotic about always talking to each other in an even tempered things because because you have something, yeah, bubbling so under the surface that one day you're gonna fucking kill me in my sleep. Yeah, you're gonna kill your wife and you're like you're gonna go to a school and shoot it up, Like yeah that stuff.

That's that fucking thing.

Yeah, because every now and I know, like like screammarking me with like a boyfriend and I'll be like, well we both feel better now.

It does sometimes feel good to.

Yeah, yeah, it's it's you know, it's fucked about having anger issues like that esply. I mean for the person the woman who wrote us this, like yours are pretty extreme, but it's like anger also is you know, it can be a good clue.

To like get somebody out of our lives or something.

And it's like it's so hard to decipher like what's healthy anger and what's like this really toxic anger. Like it's just it sucks because then you're like, can I just not feel angry? If every time I feel angry, does that mean I have to like fucking do the floor exercise.

No?

Sometimes anger anger is healthy there if you like experienced an injustice or like I mean, like, yeah, I think like if you're never like I think, if you never feel angry on behalf of yourself or like your friends and family, then there's also something.

Very angry about that.

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely get like more angry about like people doing stuff to people I love than me. It's like me whatever, I'm Yeah, it's gonna take a lot to penetreatment because I don't really think much of you know, usually the people people. Yeah, so it's kind of like a moot point really yeah, yeah, so yeah, thanks for offering us that.

Did I just burp it in the microphone? I liked it?

Okay, Well I didn't masculine, you know what. Yeah, it was like you know when you.

Go to talk and it's just like oh yeah out.

It was like that when I used to drink a lot of Starbucks hot chocolate with whipped cream. I mean, I don't know what they're putting in that, but it was burp city. Really. Yeah, that's why I had to stop drinking. And I don't drink whib cream from any of the like Starbucks, because I think was there. They're injecting it with air to get at fluffy, so you just have so much air in your system.

And I said, no, we're not doing that anymore.

But yeah, I do appreciate this perspective from the person with the toxic anger. That's and people can fucking change. I really believe that you really can. A lot of people do not want to. Uh, they just don't want to. And so somebody who doesn't want to change, abort abort the mission. Somebody who is interested in changing, there is hope. So that's that's nice to hear from somebody with these like toxic traits that is doing the work to dive in.

It sucks to look at the ugly parts of yourself, man, Yeah, it sucks.

And it looks like she has she's a kid, and I feel like it's it's hopefully like you know, you try to shield your kid from that as much as possible, even like you know, not that like you know, I think there is value in your in your child seeing something, you work on something and resolve it. But also like I think, you know, it's hard to understand anger and what it's coming from, and it just feels like wild, like even even like my you know, even dogs are scared of anger.

Yeah.

Yo.

Yeah. When I was in my like year.

Of basically disassociating mentally, Kevin was very so the worst part of one of the There's a lot of worst parts, but one of them was like Kevin was scared of me, and I was like, I'm a monster. Yeah, And that took a lot of work to not feel bad for myself and just go deeper into the swamp.

Dogs.

I was also have a pretty short term memory, thank god, Thank god, as far as that kind of stuff is concerned, I think, Yeah, although they do hold trauma, but you know, like I mean, you definitely feel safe with me.

Yeah.

Rescue dogs, like you know, you can always see like that. They can definitely come around faster than than a human.

Yeah.

So guys, we're going on the road.

We're gonna be after you buy your ticket to see us in New York City on October nineteenth, I'm going to be in the following cities, Springville, Utah, October twentieth and twenty first, Bridgeport, Connecticut November second through fourth.

Actually might be moving that one. I think the club's fucked up on that one.

What club is that stress Factory? Oh, but they gave me like the wrong room, and so that might be moved. But what's not going to be moved to? Chicago November tenth and eleventh, and Nashville, Tennessee November twelfth, one night only, and then Springfield, Missouri, November sixteenth through the eighteenth.

I'm very excited to go to the cities.

And you can get those tickets at Christina Hutchinson dot com or go follow me on social media at Christina hutch It's in the link tree link Actually that's where it is.

More than my website.

I put them on my website, which I'll do maybe later, and then if you go to patreon dot com slash Christina Hutchinson.

Once a week, I host group Sherapye.

That's what I'm calling it now because I'm not a licensed therapist, and it's really a.

Lovely space and there's a lot of guys. I fucking love.

That there's a lot of dudes in it, and I'm like and we talk about a lot of stuff, like talk about aliens, to talk about like sex work, like like the benefits of hiring a sex worker when you like haven't had sex in a while. We talk about living with a disability and people fucking looking at you like you need help all the time and you're just like this way to make another person feel better.

Which is so fucked up.

We talk about you should actively avoid people with a disability. That's what I do, just to let everyone now, I'm a great person.

I go.

Everyone's equal. Yes, yeah, I run.

I'm a person in a wheelchair.

And we've talked about feeling suicile, what to do about it. We've talked about getting over somebody, getting under somebody. It's just a lot.

It's a really good space for about an hour a week.

So you could sign up at patreon dot com slash Christina Hutchinson and if you can't, I try to make it a different weekday every week, just to give a little variety because everyone's schedules so different. But if you can't make them, you can listen to the audio. It gets recorded and uploaded to the Patreon after each Chesson SESSI young Na so Christina Hutchinson Patreon dot com, slash Christina hutchin Son.

And for me, if you're making your calendar for twenty twenty four, look at you. You're really on top of it. Well you could see me Washington, d C. I'm at the DC Comedy Law February twenty ninth through March second. That ticket link is already live. It's in the link tree link in my bio on Instagram at Philanthropy Gal.

I was also on my website Corinnfisher.

Dot com and you can also listen to me on my weekly news podcast Without a Country. A lot of people were messaging me about Russell Brand, Like, first of all, a lot of people were messaging me like, are you familiar with Russell Brandon? Have you heard of it?

Guys?

I don't know what kind of kind of how separate do you think America is from the UK. But we're I know, he wasn't like our king the way he was your king, but Russell Brand was UK. Yeah, Russell Brand is very famous here too, so I just really that clear. We're very clear on who Russell Brand is. I mean, he was married to one of our princesses of pop. But like get into the Greek forgetting Sarah Marshall. We know who Russell Brand is. Yeah, we're very familiar with who Russell Brand is. So uh yeah, because people are like, I don't know if you're going to talk about it, Like, yes, we're talking about it. On last week's episode of Without a Country, I spent almost the whole episode, uh going into the article from the Sunday Times that it went into all the details of all his allegations. I am also going to watch the in Plane Sight Dispatches p Peace from Channel four. Like all these things you have to subscribe, you probably have to go behind a pain wall, but it's on, it's online. But it was, yeah, it was. It was aired in the UK, and you know, obviously I've been doing my now world famous rapist impressions and commentaries, so yeah, we I got very deep into the Russell Brand thing. I think it was very interesting. And he's just especially his personality, he's such like a specific tie of guy. You know, Oh, I'm a wellness guru, are you okay? He oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he's very into like the wellness space. Yeah. Absolutely, stop raping, even though he was raping all those assaults occurred when he was like before he like reformed, right, I mean, I don't believe that he did reform. I think that was a performative. But yeah, I mean because he's one of those you know, I mean that this also goes hand in hand though with my thoughts on sex addiction that I don't really believe it's a real thing. So you know, that's more of my own personal beliefs, but you know, because I think he's a great example of why I don't think it's a real thing. I think it's an excuse to victimize yourself so you can keep abusing. But again, that's a longer conversation and why I created the platform without a Country so I can talk for two hours straight about shit like this. And if you're not interested in that, you don't got to tune in. But we got a fun ass time. Also, I was on Fox News Saturday Saturday night this past weekend. I'll post the clip and everything if you're interested. This is this is you know, part of I feel like my calling. I'm very into like this newscaster kind of thing. And Kat tim f was hosting who You've Heard on the podcast, So I was on a panel with Jim Florentine, who's another comedian, and this man Jonathan Morris, who is used to be a pastor, and yeah, we just had an interesting conversation. Obviously we started with later topics, but you know, I do think this really goes hand in hand with my theory of going to spaces where your voice will be heard because it's not the same voice that everyone's you know, talking in kind of a thing. I know. There's kind of been like a lot of discussion within the comedy community about people getting angry about comics going on Fox, especially like you know, liberal leaning comics like myself. But I you know, just from my background, I completely disagree with that. I think like more left leaning comics need to go on Fox, and I think infiltrate the system. And also I really don't believe like it's not like I think like angels are working at the desks on CNN. Half these companies are owned by the same fucking people anyway. But I think like, if you have a point of view and you feel confident in talking, like, go to a space where your voice will be heard. Again, this is just my approach to life, not everybody's. And why was there was one more thing that I wanted to say. I don't know what that was, but we'll we'll get to it later. But yeah, those are my thoughts for this week. So tune into Without a Country. There's a YouTube channel, there's an Instagram and things have been popping there lately. So very proud of that show. All right, topics for this week. I see you have an Instagram. Yeah, I just thought it was interesting. It kind of relates to a little bit of what we're talking about.

But I love I mean, we had her on the podcast because you follow her doctor Jess Taylor.

Oh yeah, she really.

She just has a lot of fucking interesting things to say that make me think about the way we word things so differently. And she talks about how like we victim, like we really do people into service by like labeling them with these mental illnesses when really what we're looking at is like it's a response, which I always fucking thought, like, there's so many people that are narcissistic leaning, you know, not full blown narcissists, not full blown sociopaths, but they have these like tendencies and I think, like borderline personality disorder that's a response to something. But we're just saying like, oh, they're fucked up, or like they could turn on you, or they were bipolar disorder. It's like, I mean, there's yeah, so she has this post. It was a while ago, but I'd saved it because I'm like, this is an interesting thing to just bring up. In psychiatry, there's there are no such thing as warmonger disorder, domestic abuser disorder, gaslighter disorder, emotional manipulator disorder, rapist disorder, child abuser disorder.

I mean pedophilia.

You can say.

Misogynist disorder, racist disorder, homophobe disorder, exploiting the poor, disorder, polluting our rivers and seas, disorder, forcing people to work until they die, disorder, destroying communities, disorder, causing civil and rest disorder, lunging people into poverty, disorder and forcing populations to live in theory disorder. But millions of people are diagnosed with anxiety disorder, depressive disorder, post traumatic stress disorder, personality disorders, phobia's premenstal dysphoric disorder, got that one, gender dysphoria.

Oh is that just like, oh that's okay PMDD.

Yeah, just like the fucking extreme feels like psychosis, attention deficit disorder.

What does that tell you It's time to wake up world? And so yeah, it's just like I really like her account because it really does. I'm always constantly searching for ways to think about the world differently because I do believe that, like I'm on this quest to genuinely feel this way.

But like the I think I've said this before on the show, like the people.

That are the most fucked up, that are the most abusive, like they do need the biggest hug, and I don't want to give them that hug. But I kind of I don't know, I kind of have this like inkling in me to like really understand people who do awful things more so that it dissipates the rage I feel toward them. And so I've been kind of on this little mission with myself for a couple of years now and now when people come to me, like a lot of friends have come to me lately with like so and so is, you know, you could say that they have narcissistic leaning tendencies and they're being like really emotionally abusive, and like gaslighting is such emotional abuse. It's it's and it and it and it really I would normally get really rageful when somebody would tell me about somebody doing this.

I'm like, how the fuck could they act like this?

And now what's happening is people are telling me about this and they don't want to tell me about it anymore because I like have sympathy for the person that is gaslighting.

And I'm like, ah, man, I just see when you tell me about this person.

Instead of like feeling anger and going fuck them, I'm like they're wounded with the person telling me that.

It's like an overcorrection.

Yeah yeah, yeah, So I'll all sway in the middle at one point, but I'm really interested in why fucked up people are fucked up. Yeah, I mean yeah, it's mostly because they just have like you know, unresolved issues pretty much nine times out of ten.

Yeah, I mean that's what everything is. Like. That's why I like, I love giving relationship advice to, like to to all my friends because you know, they always come, you know, forward with like what am I doing wrong? And I'm like, so little in relationships is about what the person thinks of you, and most of it is what the person thinks of themselves. And it's almost disappointing to learn that because it just again it goes links back into a topic that we were talking about a lot several months ago, which is that like, we are not special. It's really just like you're finding another person who with which you will heal, like and you're like, you're when you think about it, you're like, no, that's kind of disappointing because you know, if it's not me, but like you know, healing is cool.

Yeah, it's really it is cool.

And then but then you realize, like, oh, I was with an abusive person because I needed that, Like I was trying to heal, Like we're the amount of healing that people try to do unconsciously in a relate, in a romantic relationship specifically is wild.

So it's like, you know you.

Would try, like you know, if out of your last four partners were abusive towards you, What is it about you that likes that or that least not likes But it's comfortable with that, not to say that it's your it's your fault, but it's like, how can we do some digging that's a little more uncomfortable.

Yeah, I think there's also a certain part of you. I mean to say it in unsavory terms that almost is making you pray for people who are abusive. I was actually having a conversation with someone who was like, you know, she was asking me some questions because she was like, I actually don't trust my own instincts because I have been in such traumatic relationships in the past. And you know, of course that's not your fault, but I think, yeah, it's you're the common denomal. It's easy. You want to start exploring what is it about you that makes you okay with this or like or like a viable victim as a slum flower who I follow on Instagram, very interesting conversations was talking about. She was also talking about this this concept that as you become more confident and you become more self actualized as a woman, less men will approach you. And I mean, I know this since a young age like I very rarely get approached by men. And I was always thinking because I come off as intimidating. But when I saw this video yesterday, I was like, oh, it's actually a I was like saying that you are not a viable victim, and that's why less men approach you because they can't pull their bullshit with you is took it to the next level, and I was like, what an interesting observation.

That is interesting? And I would walk around a lot.

I used to think it's like, oh am, I don't do I not get hit on as much because I'm getting older. But it's like, well, I'm not old, and it doesn't I look better than I did when I was younger. And it's fucking because I had this doey dear. I'd look in my head of like will you save me? Even though it wasn't like outwardly like, but I was projecting that energetically a hundred percent.

Yeah, And I would get hit on all the time, and I'm.

Like, wow, I'm like a hot bitch.

But really it's by by these people that like didn't want to do anything real like they didn't want like well.

That's why it's such a misconception. It's like we talked about this a million times, but like, yeah, like guys aren't dating younger women, yeah, solely because of like, oh they have like a firmer body, Like it really doesn't it's easier, Yes, that's why. Yes, And so when you figure that out, and I mean I am dating a younger man, I would imagine it's easier too. Oh yeah, yeah. Once I did it, I was like, oh, I completely understand why people do this. But also you're you're getting a lot less of what you need emotionally, so you are you are sacrificing, whereas when a man dates a younger woman, they're kind of on.

The same level.

Yeah, and just so it's she's at the slum flower. It's a really great a great follow if you want for relationship advice. There's very few people who I honestly trust to follow with relationship advice because most people are giving out I think, pretty jacked up stupid advice. And then my question for this week is this is from this was like circulating around like I think TikTok. There's some kind of you know, healer or in quotes therapist who likes to ask his clients this, but I thought it was an interesting question. Nonetheless, the question is and Mike, this is for you as well, And he says he likes to say asked this to people because it tells you a lot about their core values. If you were stuck in an internal and an eternal loop of doing one thing like not like an action, not like you know, nailing and nailing. No, not like nailing and nail, but like one experience that you had to continually experience for the rest of eternity, and you could only do this one thing for the rest of your life. What thing would you choose an experience so there's more feelings based, like it could be I mean fall in love. Yeah, I think that could be. That would be the best thing ever. I think that could be a passable that seems like maybe like a longer experience then. But but I mean again, this is like I think. I think it's like whatever comes to you first, because mine came to me so quickly. Mine was spending time with Alfred, like no questions, ask like one hundred percent yeah, like very very I was like, because I always go with what comes to me first. It's like chilling with Alfred, Like that's what what What's the one thing I would want to do for the rest of my life? Because I just thought of really quickly, what are my great what are my great passions in life? Comedy whatever? I'm like, I wouldn't want to do that for eternally on a loop. I would want to be on a stage doing stand up an internal loop. That doesn't sound great. Yeah, yeah, So I was like, yeah, no, like you know, playing with Alfred, hanging out with Alfred, what would be yours, Mike.

Uh, absolutely, it would be playing baseball.

Oh so fucking jack Yeah and tired.

That's just like I I played. So I got on a softball team this summer and it was one of the first years I did that where I was like I actively seeked out like an adult league with strangers or whatever, and it was just a blast. We play every Saturday.

That's awesome.

It brought me back to being a kid. And like you said, I think that there were like I did think for a second about other artistic things that I do that I like to do, but there is a torturous element because I oh right, sure, Like I thought about it. I was like, what would I want to be in a room writing for the rest of my life? And I was like, I don't know. But when I feel when I'm on a baseball field, I'm at first base and I'm just you know, like like waiting for the action to happen, I feel so good.

Yeah. Yeah, it's just like I'm very grand, You're great.

Yeah, I love it. I loved playing baseball as a kid. I miss it and it's one of the only things that I haven't been able to do since I like aged out of it after high school. There is no it's not like basketball. You need eighteen people to play baseball. You can't just like go and shoot oops or whatever.

You could just play toss, but that's yeah, but that's it.

Yeah.

Oh my god.

Wait, if you're ever in California, my friend Jonesy, he plays on this baseball team like where they dress up in old timey outfits and they do it. He showed me the uniforms. They are so cute. It's like eighteen hundred style. Like some guy approached him because Jonesy does a lot of sports. It plays a lot of sports too, in you know, like you know, chill leagues, and he showed me the uniform and.

I was like, this is cute.

Like the refs do it too, and he's like, people go and watch it, like it just seemed like it just seems so cool. He was telling us about it, and we're like, oh my god, I totally do that. I don't know how much how well that fabric breathes, but not very well.

I think, but yeah, it feels so cool.

They look so everyone looks so handsome in the universe, like old timy mustaches and stuff. Yeah that's cute. I love it.

I was really fucking cute.

Oh my gosh, I read what The other thing I wanted to say was I realize until now. But one of the books I always have, like a bunch of self help books kind of like playing at some points, like through my day when I'm driving, and one of them was like this really caught my eye, and I'm like, it's really helpful because we all have addictions to something right approval, a drug, whatever the fuck it is, likes on Instagram, whatever, and most of us have multiple addictions.

And this author was like, you can't. You know, the energy of addiction is really powerful and really potent. Instead of trying to like suppress it, get addicted to good shit, like get addicted to healthy shit. And I've been getting addicted to like eating well and like making sure I'm aticulate, like I'm on all these I was seeing like an herbalist and I'm taking all this stuff, but I'm like really addicted to like fucking figuring out my eating.

I'm like, oh shit, which someone fucking told me this years ago.

Well is this So is this author saying that it's like actually like clinical addiction, that we are all clinically addicted to something. Uh yeah, I don't know that.

He used the word clinical, but well, the car this Carter's Stout book, I love, one of my favorite books on addiction that I've read so far, as it's called we Are All Addicts, talks about you know, an addiction is something that we kind of do on a loop that we're like a lot of times you don't even know you're doing it, Like like when you fucking I hate when I do this. When you close the Instagram and then.

You just open it ten point one seconds later, you're like, what the fuck?

Obviously as a team of engineers on Instagram getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to make you do that, but it's fucking frustrating.

You're doing a great job, guys, yeah, honestly salary well nailing it.

Yeah, you're ruining your sciety, thank you. But yeah, uh yeah.

So I'm just trying to channel that energy because it is like like and I'm getting addicted to playing drums, I'm fucking going to the drum studio like four days a week.

I know you gotta tell you when you gotta bring the drum kit here, do a little debut on the show. I want to hear it. I'm pretty good.

I can do heart shape Box is the only girl song that's like, you know, doable for a beginner.

But I am obsessed. I'm like, let's get addicted to drums.

And I go there for two hours and I fucking oh, it's so good to talk about anger shit bang a drum baby.

That's primal question?

Is this? Like, because is this like purely hobby? Are you are you thinking of like using this? I didn't know sense did? Like what inspired you to do this?

I when I roller blade, I rollerblade a lot, and I always like when I listen to music, I just fucking air drum.

And I'm like, I think you want a drum Like I think you really want a drum. Christ has won't stop Yeah, And I'm like, what the fuck is this? I'm like, I think you could be good at drumming. And I've been taking lessons for six months and it's weird. I've never had a skill like this. I'm good at it and I do not have to try. I've never naturally musically inclined. Yeah, singing piano, yeah.

Yeah, yeah yeah, But like piano takes practice, but like drums, I'll do these drum patterns and I'm like graduating to each new pattern and I'm like, I didn't even fucking rehearse this, and I'm nailing rhythm.

Like if you have rhythm, you can you can learn how to be a drummer.

I guess I didn't think I had a lot of rhythm, to be honest, but uh, but I'll like, I'll as I'm doing these drum patterns in the lesson, I'll be like my brain is not thinking of what I'm doing, but I'm literally it's like I'm witnessing myself nail it.

And I'm like, whoa, how am I doing this rhythm? Yeah, drum too, I mean like I can. Christina is probably tighter than I am at this. I mean, I grew up doing music stuff, so I mean, like the.

Coolest is singing when you drum.

So there is event very that's no I do that. I say, I sing hard, shape box and I fucking drum the whole thing.

I sing the whole thing, and it's so much fun because it's a five way independence, so every limb in your body is doing something different and your voice, so it's so And my drum teacher was like, I think the only whom Sheila and.

Karen Carpenter was spent like the best drum drum when she was nineteen years which is so sick. Boy, dude, that woman is the most insane drummer.

And I did not know that until last summer.

I'm like, how the fuck did I go this long without knowing Karen Carpenter was one of the greatest drummers of all time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, drumming is so cool.

The drummer is always the post member of the band.

She's fucking banging on ship in a rhythm. Is just I always want the drummer.

The drummers also usually don't talk a lot in real life, which I.

Relaxed because drumming is a lot of fun.

They're busy drumming.

Yeah, yeah, it is a lot of fun playing music in general. When you start cooking, when you're.

In a pocket and you're fucking going like I was playing like the Verse of the hard shape Box because I was trying to do this is getting real nerdy. But I had my metronome to one hundred b pm yea, which is a hard rhythm to play. For some reason, one hundred is hard. It's like dun or something. And anyway, I kept going too fast and I was fucking and then there was about I did it for two hours. I just played the verse one hundred bpm and I didn't realize it was two hours straight, and I'm like, holy shit.

This channeling your.

Addictive energy towards like cool stuff is.

The way to go.

Like everybody, I want everybody to know that if you are addicted to obviously, there's a lot of chemical addictions that like you need like rehabing, you know.

A medical team.

That's why every recovering alcoholic I know loves fitness. You know, Yes, you gotta get into something every literally every I mean think like I can. I can list off the top of my head ten comics who quit drinking and all of a sudden, ore gen buddies now yeah, yeah they have calf muscles.

Yeah yeah, yeah, I've been looks in a lot of weights to my apartment. But yeah, get addicted to good stuff.

Recalibrate yourself.

Yeah, you're addicted to like success, yeah, but in productivity, I'm just it's yeah, but I'm like, I was just curious about like how they were defining that because it's not ruin your life.

It's not addicted and like, oh I can't like miss or like yeah yeah yeah, and like it's not in that it's not in the same sense as a yeah, a substance. It's like taking like I can still like take a break. Yeah, And you're you're taking the toxic traits out of a lot of people's that like toxic addictions to like to you know, a substance or sex or approval of men or whatever the person, whatever it is, take the toxic parts of that addiction out, but like really just channel that. It's just fucking laser focus. Yeah, because fun the laser focus. Also, when I think about addiction, when it becomes true addiction or problematic addiction. U uh to me, that's also defined as when the joy is stripped from it, right, Oh yeah for sure. So for me, the there is the my most of my main joy is from like achieving things. There is you know, the only time it's stripped of joys when other people try to tell me to relax and take a break, and I go, sounds like you're trying to distract me from from achieving more stuff, and I don't like that. So maybe you mind your own fucking business.

So funny, Oh, speaking of mind in your own fucking business, that's not today's guess.

That's not what we're going to do today. We are going to be right up in their business.

I gotta say this is one of my favorite interviews we've ever done because I learned about myself and the world and I it.

Just I also it was very cathartic to speak.

They're not that much older than us, but like a woman, the more closer to my mother's age, that was like sane, grounded, like really like just yeah, it's just it's always that's always nice for me.

But anyway, you're gonna love this conversation.

The stars of the Bravo TV show Sweet Home Oklahoma and the co hosts of the podcast I've Had It.

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome.

Jennifer Welch and Angie Pumps Sullivan. You moiled me like.

Spread with all the trouble, the rose spray booming out from the talk. You saw my heart and it's still miss same.

You lost your head.

When I said I was and right for you.

But if you feel the way, thank you too, then it's time that we were.

Rock per the baby, baby, I tried loving you with lately little lies. Oh, I realized the flip side.

Your words left done, said write them down and burn down, because the one who broke your heart can't help you find the part too happy again, you.

Mouthed me, Okay.

We are here with Jennifer Welsh and Angie pump Phillips Sullivan Sullivan.

Why did I say phillips?

Oh?

Because I wrote that down. I misreading. That's why I should write things fucking down.

We are here with Jennifer Welch and Angie Pumps Sullivan.

We're so excited to have you both.

Why Pumps because her husband nicknames everyone dogs, kids, everybody, everyone gets name, Everyone gets a nickname. And so I was Angelina Pumpkin Tina, and then I was Tina full of pumps, and for the last like fifteen years it's just been pumps.

So it's like a pump of a pumpkin spice.

Yeah, I mean I.

Wish it was something like so, I was telling them at lunch, I wish it was like me taking it from behind with like a.

Big hue wash guy and just pump, pump pump.

But it's just it.

Could you could change the pedestrian, I know that's what they were saying.

I should change it. If you're a nickname.

To like you know, you did a stint and porn for a little bit, yes, and you were the best getting Sequila O'Neill.

Whoa is that your dream? I don't always because just like looking cold into what I was, I thought it was just because you have big knockers. No, God, I wish I didn't have big knockers. I hate it.

Really.

The grass is always greener with breasts, right, Yeah, I would love to have little bitty mosquito bites.

Yeah, that's what I say, perky forever too, right, No, mine are the sag and dragons. That's what we actually refreshed that mask. Yeah, I'm a d and I'm like dah, now I'm seeing the perks to the little one. I know.

It was great when you're young and have rocket babes, right, but when you get to be my age, it's just something you have to wear, brawl a the time and wear different clothes.

Right right, Yeah, and jogging is just I mean, forget about it. But I would imagine with the sagging it makes the jogging worse.

Yeah right right, Oh yeah.

So so we talked a little briefly before we turned the cameras on about like, you know, anything like that's going on in your life that you would be excited to talk about, or something that's like.

On your mind. Angie.

You had mentioned that you are asexual, but then you corrected yourself and said, I just don't like dating, which I think is most people, right.

I would rather be asexual and sit down by myself and watch forty eight hours then I have to go out and date.

Yeah, I mean it just sounds horrific.

When was the last time he did it? A year?

Two years? It has it been two years? Like two years?

Okay, yeah, because that person ended up being married, Yeah, the problem and of course lied about it the whole time.

How long did you date this person, this liar, probably liar? How long did you lying larry?

Probably about six seven months, a few months, and then there was a break and then dated a few months and then it would sell us over about seven total, probably six months or six months together, like nine months.

Broke up with him, and then he sent her She finds out she's married. He has a ring on Facebook.

Yeah.

She calls him confronts him about it. He gives the story that, oh, no, I really am divorced. I just haven't told my co workers to wear the.

Ring's the.

Double down and wow.

And then he sends her this Christmas gift and their little coasters with inspirational quotes. I'm like, okay, so we're a mistress and you didn't even get.

Quotes? Did you think didn't you know the guy?

No, it was like there were funny it's trying to be funny quotes. I think they were bad.

It was a bad gift.

Jennifer looked him up on Amazon. She's like, oh my god, those are ten dollars apiece.

Wow. Wow.

I also I am also like so shocked that people in the age of technology think that they can away with her wife and a girlfriend, Like, you have to put some preparation into that. Cheating so stupid. So did you go to his house ever? No, we were long distance, which.

Made it nice. Yeah, that was for him.

He kept inviting her and she was like, I'm going he lived in Texas. She was like, I'm going to Houston this weekend. Oh, he bumped it back. He bumped it back. So then when she called me with his story because she called me under the guys, well he explained it to me, and I kind of believe him, and I'm like, oh, come, what was his work the co workers of the coworking.

The bumping the back, bumping it back.

Though it was always work related? Oh okay, yeah, work related. Yeah, so something you couldn't really question because you're like, I don't know enough to know that. I don't.

I have no idea, but I have a terrible picker. Every everything that he had with work. Remember, it was like, this is the most important deal I've ever closed in my career. And then the next weekend, right, this is the most important. I'm like, well, you sure does close a lot of important deal.

It's very important. Yeah.

He doesn't give gifts like it.

He does not it gifts like it. Yeah, so I just in place.

I always picked bad like that was just an another example of my bad picker.

Did he ever comes, did he ever admit it that I can't stay To this day, you're still holding on to this denial.

It's so juvenile, it's so ridiculous.

What was it about him in the picking process that you originally gravitated towards him.

Because of funny and seem very easy personality, which now I know why, Right because he's a cheater.

Right, art he likes laying down the charm, love bombs.

I'm sure exactly that's exactly what it was. Okay, Well, funny guys are not to be trusted, but they also know it's like so powerful that they can do whatever they want. Have you ever dated a comedian? Oh, you should try a I was gonna say one hundred percent, don't there? Why do you say? Yeah?

Because if you do it with a grain of salt, I know you should date somebody with the grain of salt.

But if you kind of just do it go and I don't know where this is going, and you don't there, don't cling to any outcome, just on ideo and just like maintain you know, whatever your own boundaries and and kind of how you want to maintain yourself in a relationship.

But I don't know.

They're just fun and funny and weird and you could get save fucked up things to them, you know, like dark humor.

It is true. Yeah, Like I when I'm a stand up.

We're both stand ups, and so when we especially when you date another stand up, you're like, let's just see how far we can go into the other one gets really uncomfortable and taps out, and then when you do, you're like, respectfully, tap it out.

We got to stop.

Oh really, Yeah, it's kind of nice, like being roasted at either of you in your own home. Does that sound fun to you?

Well, I have three children, say yes, that's all the time.

Yeah, yes, the disrespect.

Why why are kids so mean to their parents? That's a great question.

I mean, it's not that they're mean, but it's like it happens to where when you have kids, you're cool.

You're cool, You're cool in your mind. You guys are cool.

You're living in New York, and then all of a sudden you have a teenager, right, and it's their job to inform you you're not dated and expired and not cool. You are and that's just that's just a part of the social contract, changing of the guard, right.

And so that's what they do. They roast.

Do you feel if you internalize that at all?

No?

No, Oh, okay, you know it's well.

You know, you're cool.

With them them anyway, right right, totally fine, Like, well, oh sorry, go ahead. I think it's kind of funny. I mean I remember thinking my parents weren't right yeah, my turn. Yeah, and it's just a part and it doesn't phaze me full circle, Yeah, totally.

And then they'll think you're cool again when they get older, when they're like babysitting their grand their children. Yeah, oh, when you're doing their work, their job.

Yet also, I feel like if you like don't care that they don't think you're cool, they'll probably think you're cool.

Yeah. Right, My oldest definitely think she's cool. It doesn't think I'm cool at all.

How old are your kids?

Mine are twenty three, twenty one, and eighteen. Oh wow, okay, so I have one at home still. The other two are in college. But he's never listened to our podcast, never once. And I'm like, I can't believe you won't listen to the podcast, And he said, that's been the soundtrack of my life. Why would I want you to hear you and Jennifer bitching at each other.

That's the point.

Have you have you had moments with your kids where like like it's do you have a trusting relationship with your kids where they can come and tell you stuff like like fucked up stuff.

They're like, ah, like pick me up at the party, I'm wasted or something like that or more.

Yes, I was raised by a super hyper religious you know, good girls don't do this, Good girls don't do that. Sexist, a sexist, the whole nine. So I've probably gone too far the other way because I've had to tell my daughter before, I'm not your friend. I don't want to hear this. Did she like, my mom, you're my best friend. I'm like, I don't want to be your best friend.

Yeah.

I don't boundary.

I don't know what's going I need to know the intimate details of everything. Yeah, but so I think, yes, I'm like, if you're going to drink, don't drive. If you want going to pick you up, fine, you have Uber on your phone. Like, I know that you're going to do stuff that you're probably not supposed to. I just don't want you to die over it.

Yeah yeah, yeah, why wise that's good because so you give them a little bit of a leash and then they just, you know, see how far they can take it.

And I don't know.

Kids always like to test but I feel like when the parent is super strict, the kid will repel.

I went to college. Oh my god, it was like getting ship faced. Ship faced.

I never had sex because I was like, and then all the hell, the hell? Yeah, the first time I have sex?

Why would you make the holes? You know what I mean?

The first time I had sex, I remember thinking like, it's hell going to like it. When I was getting out to the bathroom, I was like, is it going to open and I'm going.

To be snatched? Whoa and all that. And then I didn't and I was like, oh my god, this is fun.

I can suck. It's great.

Did you hold it up then?

Did you? Like really?

Because sometimes once you get it in, you're like, wait a second, I could get better at this and it could be more fun.

Well, the first time so terrible anyway, you know you get mine was for sure?

Yeah, but no, I kind of did tore it up a little bit for you.

I did good for you.

Are you both originally from Oklahoma?

Yeah?

I was born in Dallas, moved to Oklahoma I was around eight. Okay, okay, and the religious as well. No, my parents are atheists. Oh wow, it's so hard to come by yeah, very hard in the South.

Totally.

I was raised in like the middle of the Bible belt by a complete a woman who completely holds religion in contempt.

I think it's a sign of a low IQ, really opposite ends of the spectrum.

Which did she have a bad experience with religion?

I take it.

So she was raised by a crazy religious mother. She was eight years old and her mother was like just alcoholic, borderline personality disorder. She lost a purse and at church, my mother was only eight, she prayed and prayed and prayed, God, you know how horrible my mother is, please help me find this purse. She never found the purse. And this was like back in the maybe fifties or sixties in Dallas and kids would just hop on a public bus and go places. So my mom got on the bus, went to the library and started reading and learning about the source of religion because she was like, did people really float around on a boat with two animals? Yeah, a nine hundred year old man, did that really happen? So she just is a voracious reader, and she read and read and she was just like, oh, this is she's a truth seeker totally. Yeah, And so like I would get in trouble if I spent the night with a girlfriend and their family was really religious, which was every single one of my friends.

Yeah, they always wanted to save.

Me right, Oh well okay, So then they would say, well, you go to church with us, and then I'd go home and my mother would go, Jennifer, I've.

Told you not to go to church. So I mean, two polar opposite childhoods. Yeah, save you from what? That's what I That's what I am.

Yeah. They asked me when I was These girls on my cheerleading squad when I was thirteen were like, Jennifer, do you go to church?

And I said no, And they said have you ever been saved? And I said from what?

From?

Like in the Rock? No?

They say, have you accepted Jesus Christ to be your Lord and personal savior. It's real evangelical in the South. So I raised, I'm like, no, I haven't. They're like, you're going to go to hell. You're going to go to hell, You're going to burn.

So I go home.

I tell them, I'm like, we have got to go to church. We have to get saved.

We have to Jesus has to be our lord and personal safe I'm going to burn in hell forever. My mother's like, oh, for God's sakes, Jennifer, that's ridiculous, that's emotional blackmail.

That's true. I mean, right, she was.

She saved you.

Yeah, she saved you. Your did, mother saved you.

She did.

And you know, there was a part a time where I wanted to fit in where I wanted to because everybody, and I grew up in the suburbs of Oklahoma City, everybody's a Bible temper.

And everybody goes the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

And they look down on you when you're not la I grew up in Virginia and the church thing. If you don't go to church, you are trash.

Yes, But if you're not indoctrinated in it at a very young age, and then you know, I'm thirteen, fourteen, I can critically think it was pitched to me. I tried to pick it up, and I just it sounded the same as any mythology here. So you have to be indoctrinated at a very young age to believe an extraordinary claim like that, and I just wasn't at all. So I don't have any of that residue. Did you a lot of other residues, right, lots in a ton of other areas. But that's not one area that I that's awesome. I have total clarity about that.

So when you grew up evangels or just like Christian Okay, So, was there a moment where you realize it was all it was bullshit?

Like the.

Because there's a lot of judgment in your behavior, like the women can't be sluts for lack of a better word, like or be loud or curse or any of that.

It's very sexist.

So did you have a moment where you were like, wait a second, I don't think this is my jam anymore.

I think that it's slowly starting started evolving for a long time, and then I would say, probably three or four years ago it kind of really hit shit.

So recently, Yeah, it's in your DNA, it's in your bones practically, right.

You grew up with it like that, right, But I was.

I was very good about pitting on the perfect the perfect daughter face and then just being naughty as hell on the side, but always had the big smile and did everything my mom wanted.

You know what I mean.

So you kind of look at devil life, Yeah.

Yeah, did you feel guilty?

That good?

That's great Christian you are, But that's awesome.

That's great if you can get, if you can understand and give yourself that grace, that's perfect. So when you had the realization, like did you have to tell like are your parents so a live or like when.

Yes, they're still live and.

No, good?

My mother actually asked me, this is a true story. I'd lived with my ex husband for like six months before we got married. We were leaving the wedding dress shop and she says to me in the car, I was twenty seven. I wasn't like a chicken baby chicken, And she said, are you worthy of wearing the white dress?

And I was like, yep, she's a version.

Yeah.

And I was just like in my head going, oh my.

God, are you fucking kidding me?

Come on?

Since I was eighteen cohabitating and just like get French kissing or what do they think was going down?

She didn't know I was cohabitating. She thought I was living with another with a girlfriend. So she do you know for a fact that she didn't have sex before marriage? I mean, there's really no way to like one hundred percent no, But like is she claiming she didn't.

No, she's never said that. Huh.

So she's holding you to standards that she does not herself living.

But she.

Grew up super religious.

My guess is if she had sex before marriage, she would be feel very much shame about it.

Yeah, damn, it's such a what that is a shame? Well, the problem is these kids that grow up in that, you know, evangelical world, they have sex and then to you know, assuage their guilt, they immediately marry right because they've already done.

And so you have these kids that get married too young and the divorce rates high, and you know, it's it's a mess.

That is a mess.

Yeah.

So you you were married, Jennifer, and you got divorced and then you got you're back to being married.

Yes, but you dealt with addiction and your partner had addiction. What what what was he addicted to? And like how did that show up?

We get a lot of inquiries about like dating addicts, and I always feel for people because addiction sucks, and it's it's hard when I imagine it's hard when you're on the other end of the relationship without the addiction to have empathy and compassion. It could be like I think I could see it being easy getting really upset with that person, But how is your experience with it?

So it's loving, you know, you think you're sold this, this bill of goods that love feels good. Love is supposed to feel good. But loving an addict is excruciating. It's painful. Everything about it hurts if their addiction is not you know, if it's totally yeah.

Yeah.

So my husband was addicted to alcohol opiates, and the opiates really get their claws and people, and this was around it.

I just saw a Sackler doc.

Holy shit, they in the country early two thousands, right before they're really starting to hammer down. And so a lot of this is I buy physicians addiction is and so then of course it's off to the races. And then I said him to rehab a couple of times and we had a one year old.

And that was really hard. Now what made was there a bottom of the well moment?

You know, I knew like his addiction was so, I mean, he's an attorney going to work, but you know, when you're living, I don't have the ability to just be in denial, like I could tell how dysfunctional.

He was.

I could see that he was using something I was overtly aware of. So he wasn't telling you, was he telling you?

Well?

I mean, Josh is the type of person I'm like, hey, you're I mean, there's part truths part lies. Addicts never they're not going to walk up and go yes, I took seventy four percocets today and I'm totally addicted. Otherwise getting them help might be easier. So, yes, addicts always lie, but there is they know that there's a part where they have to say, well, yeah I did drink, or yeah I took a couple of painkillers. But anyway, he went to rehab a couple of times, get married, we had we had a kid first, and then he goes to rehab, and then we get married, we have another kid. Then he got anxiety related to work and a doctor prescribed xanax, which is a benzo diazepine.

Is that addicted totally okay? Horrible? I mean right up there with opiates Xanax. Everybody pops vannies all the time. I didn't know they were addicting.

Xanax and clonipin are both benzo diazepines. They're both narcotics, and so he was prescribed benzodiazepines for stress. And he has the type of personality one is good, seventy five are better. That's the attic brain. And so begged him to get better, begged him to go to back to rehab he would and he wouldn't. So my final boundary was like, if you don't get sober for me and these kids and for yourself, I'm going to divorce you. Yeah, and he's kind of like, fuck you, And that's what addicts do. So yeah, I mean, yeah, you're resentful, you're mad at hurt. You think, how could you pick drugs over your over me? But it takes a long time to realize that the attic part of their brain, it sits in the hypothalamus, which is where your fight or flight reflex is. So it is a survival thing for them. Nobody is choosing to It's not so black on the drug He didn't choose the drugs over me and the kids. He didn't choose to be an addict. For him, he felt he had to have those to survive. So I had to in order to forgive him. So we divorced because he wouldn't get sober. But then he finally said, hey, I want to go get help again. So the journey that I had to go through to understand that he didn't choose to be an addict, he didn't choose the drugs necessarily over me. It's a really hard thing to grasp and you have to kind of dig into the science of it to understand how he has a genetic component to it.

And there's just so much more.

It's so much more nuanced than you know, you get clean now, or these are your consequences. It's a very gray issue addiction, and it hurts people. But I had to understand the person who is hurting the most is him. Really, yeah, he's the he's the sick person. He's the one with this disease. And so it's tricky. Because somebody has cancer, you feel empathy for them. If somebody is an addict, you feel fucking pissed and you're they're choosing this, And it's really a lot trickier than that. Nobody, all of these people that have addiction or struggled with addiction are not intentionally trying to piss everybody off.

Poster Yeah, you know.

So it took me a while honestly it was I never.

Ever, ever thought I would say this ever, because I was so fucking mad and I had that resentment and it was fucking mine and I earned it and I wrapped it up with a bow and I pet that resentment.

But I'll tell you, and I never thought i'd say this.

Everything that happened and the depths that I had to go to to learn forgiveness was really good for me because one thing that people don't get is I picked him.

Yeah, so I've got you know, I can't.

His stuff was so massive. It was easy to be like, oh, Josh's fucked up and he's this terrible guy. But I picked him and kept taking him back. So something was clearly fucking wrong with me too.

You know.

Maybe mine wasn't as overt. Mine was more covert.

So we went through a lot of therapy and now we're in a great place and you know, completely reconciled. We have a son that's twenty that goes to Syracuse, and we have a seventeen year old that's a junior in high school at home.

Wow.

And our kids are great, and you know, really good kids, and hopefully they don't have the attic gene. But you know, something we openly talk about as a family. I never lied to my kids.

That's nice.

When their dad went to rehab, I would just say, he has problems. Yeah, they don't have anything to do with you. He had these before you were born, and so you know, I I feel like I'm a better person because of all of that.

And it was so painful. I'm just excruciating. Yeah, it's it's such it's so tempting to hold onto your anger.

Oh.

I loved it, God a sick way.

I loved that because because you feel like you're getting justice for your pain in a way, even though you're really holding yourself back.

No, it's so toxic, but you get it and you get like you get your claws into it, and it's like, I've fucking earned this.

These are my battle wounds, matther Hair.

Yeah, you just clinging onto that anger and resentment and learn getting to the other side of that and finding forgiveness.

It's hard, but it really feels so much better, like to to genuinely forgive. I think a lot of people prematurely forgive because they know logically I should, but my God, Like we talked about this on the podcast before, Like I asked her in this question once, like, how do you know you've really forgiven somebody? Because you what if I want to forgive them, but like every time their name gets brought up, I want to fucking wring their.

Nuts, you know. Yeah, I think you have to fake it till you make it.

With forgiveness, yeah, I think you intellectually forgive first, but then your heart, Like there's an emotional component, and so I mean, I think it's a process for giving somebody, And in order to forgive somebody, you have to see that their behavior that harmed you has changed and been addressed. There's so forgiveness is contingent upon so many different variables.

Very true, Very true, damn I know.

And then you you worked with Josh right, I did, So how did you did you see it in the workplace? Like how as like the best friend role? How did the addiction affect you?

You had inside info?

Well, my my husband was also at that time going through similar situations with addiction and stuff.

So I mean, I'm the.

Worst because uh, I can never tell, Like she would ask me, does Josh see messed up?

I was like, oh my gosh, not at all.

And then she'd walk in five minutes later and be like, oh, I think he's sucked up, And I was like, I had no idea. And then if he was good about admitting it, but no, he never, he never really.

Sorry.

I'm usually so loud it makes me nervous. But he didn't bring it at work. I mean he kept he was always on at work. Yeah, so it's hard for me to tell.

As one, we're really good at hot like addicts can be really good because it is. I'm glad you said the survival thing that is that is what makes like an addict is really good at getting whatever it is that they're addicted to, like better. The skill of getting the thing that you're addicted to is very high, and it's good, but it is survival based. Its relies on your husband's survival to not let it show at work, right, so that he can keep the addiction up, so that he can continue to have that the life he thinks he's getting from.

It, right.

Fascinating.

Are there any tools that that when you were going through therapy couple's therapy that like really stood out to you that were so helpful in getting through it. Here's the best thing and this will piss anybody off.

That is like, I sent my husband to rehab and I wanted him to come back, and I wanted to get him in a room with a therapist, and I was ready to just go, Okay, let's go, mother fuck, I've got this and this did this, and you need to get on your knees and cry for this.

And I want snot slinging for that. So we get back.

He gets back and we go.

And sit down with a therapist, and the therapist goes, Honestly, he has like a brain disease that's going to take about two years until he's even capable of sitting down and understanding this, Before his levels and his brain are back to normal, you need to let him focus on his recovery.

And I was just like, I don't want to do that.

Are you fucking kidding me?

I have so much shit built up.

I mean, this is my time to pound. And she was right, she was one, what do you do?

Percent right?

It's so hard.

You got to like take a boxing it is so it is so hard.

So first and foremost, a lot of the crazy frenetic stuff has faded. But as a codependent, you've kind of gotten addicted. To that frenetic, addictive.

Energy, and so you have to you. Really, the best advice.

I can give somebody is you go to therapy and figure out what is wrong with you that you picked this person, and make yourself the best person you can be, while simultaneously it takes that. It's like the person had a brain injury and it takes a couple of years for the dopamine and serotonin levels to get recovered from that. Then they're after a couple of years and face it two years ago by pretty quickly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then you you know, and it's all it's a very gingerly process. But you start to notice, oh my god, this person is starting to behave differently, But you don't. When somebody gets home from rehab, they're not.

Toda, I'm better. They're still totally fucked up. They're just not using drugs.

Right, that's it.

I'm going to have to reacclimate to work, to going out with friends to what does that even look like?

Probably crankycause they don't have drugs anymore, Like be cranky for a while.

Yeah, it's away, I imagine.

So bridey does not equal sanity, right, it doesn't. And I was deluded in naim and I thought that. I mean, I dropped him off at rehabbing Arizona the first time. I thought, nailed it.

He'll be back in thirty days. We got this deal done.

It's it's a long process of forgiveness and learning self love and so many facets that you have to I mean, and it takes.

A lot of work from both parties. Yeah, I don't feel really to him.

We do.

That's a lot we do.

That's a lot to go through together and to come out on to come out on the other side, like with love for each other is like, that's so intimate.

It really is.

It's very intimate. But it wasn't.

I mean, I could have killed that motherfucker Loraina Bobbitt style.

Totally. I mean, I had that kind of anger in me. How do you make it up to you? I mean, or is there a guess, nothing to make up because it's a disease. I don't know. He should should like try hard, like extra hard.

He does.

It's again, nothing, nothing, not one act can make it as sure. But for many years now, every morning he brings me a cup of coffee while I'm in bed and puts it on my nightstand.

That's fair.

And he does like he knows that I like to go out and walk the dogs, and he you know, he likes you knows I play pickleball a the time. He knows I like to have grapes, and they're for little things where you see, this person is not a selfish motherfucker. Yeah right, it's little things to me are the are the most. But more than anything, what he's done is I see him quit focused. Addicts are incredibly selfish, both in their addiction and then the recovery process is equally as selfish because they have to solely focus on their recovery.

So as a person who.

Loved one, you're like, well, god, now first it was all about drugs. Now it's all about these fucking meetings.

What not me? Yeah, honestly, you need attention and affection and love and connection.

Yeah, but you see, after they're sober a while, then you see the selfishness start to recede some and then he just does these really random, sweet, selfless things for me, sustained over a long period of time, and then it's like you can start to exhale and you start to feel safe.

Yeah, you know, and he's probably getting dopamine or serotonin hit off of doing kind things for his wife, Like that feels good to be a good partner and so somebody I love.

It feels amazing exactly.

And he's such a great guy anyway, you know what I mean. It was not I didn't have to forgive him, but I'm just saying it was. He's a very easy person to love and to be around. Nice, So that makes it better, it does.

Yeah, when their personality is good, it's like, yeah, well, at least we have that baseline, right, and also too, like what is his personality off the drugs? Like, like was his personality drug and fueled to begin with or whatever?

Right?

Right?

Got to figure things out?

Well, so you both so you both now have said that you you know you you had it was your fault for picking or not your fault, but like you have to one up with you figure out why you're picking people like that. And you've said you had a broken picker. So have has there been any revelations based on your pickers?

Sounds like we're talking about.

Dicksh Obviously mine hasn't gotten much better.

I don't think do you know what's wrong with it though?

Or how it got to be that way.

I've been told by my therapist, I have intimacy issues, like what like I held people like in an intimate relationship.

I like to Yeah, so, and I'm not working on that. So that's one reason that day. Well, do you what other stuff to work on? Do you want to work on it? Because it's like you don't really have to work on it, you don't want to. Yeah.

No, I don't ever want to get married again. I'd like to have somebody like go do fun stuff with, but only like once a month. That's my that's my perfect spot once a month. But that Yeah, I don't put a lot of time and energy into thinking about it.

Do you stay in touch with your ex husband in anyway because you have kids?

Well, we have kids, so I mean extremely sparse and rarely. Yeah, I mean I see him at games. We're very civil.

You wouldn't know, I mean obviously would know, but yeah, we don't have like an acrimonious relationship and it's like, hey, how are you good to see you?

Yeah, that kind of thing.

But we don't have any contact outside of the kids in there are so old now, I don't we don't really have to have a lot of contact.

Did you ever have experiences where your kids would like come home from his house and say something and you're like, God, I wun't hear that. Not that they meant to piss you, right, but like because that like when you break up with somebody, like even if you're in the same career field and you see them around you have mutual friends, You're like, so I don't want to know anything.

But when you have kids, like they're going to say stuff about their dad, They're like.

Oh, yeah, well see, I mean, I've a divorce attorney, so I get all of that from people. And I would always have very little sympathy for when it uh One of my clients would say, well, they came home from their moms this weekend and she said this and this and this, and in my head I would be thinking, I can get over it. It's not that big of a deal, right, you know, like whatever, and then but my kids never spent the night with anyone, but they never spent the night with him, so they were always with me. So there was this one time that my son said something like, well Dad thinks da da da d dah, and that I mean the back to haunt me of all those years thinking it's not that big.

Of a deal.

I mean, it took all I could do not to football tackle him, get in my car, drive through his office, run over him, because I was just like, how fucking dare you?

Like how dare you?

And I can't remember what it was, that's how important it was. But so I have a lot more sympathy for my clients now that's I get it. I mean I was like, Okay, now I can have empathy for you because that You're right, it is a big deal and it does hurt, so but yeah, it's a that's a minefield with the kids.

Like if you get married and don't have kids and you get divorced, you can be like.

Peace out, like we don't ever have to go to the grave with I've ever seen that part right again, But when you have kids, I mean I just think, like we're going to be at the same wedding.

Yeah, we're going to share the grand children for the babies, Like I'm never going to get right of this fucking asshole.

Is there a way you can frame it in your head so it's more enjoyable for you to be as in his presence.

Or like, here's one thing I will say. The opposite of love is not hate, it's ambivalence. And I am totally completely ambivalent. I mean, I want the best for him. I used to wish him dead totally, like on the show I had like this is how I would murder him. I would get a baseball that he would be a sleep and I had the whole thing kind out. The only thing that stopped me was I'd clean up the fucking mess. Yeah, because I was like, no jury would convict me. They'd be like, girl, go, But I would be the one to clean up my physical mess and the emotional mess with my kids. And I don't even wish him dead anymore. I'm just like, time, don't work, right, don't fuck with my kids?

You're good?

Yeah?

Is he still like is there still those same behaviors or the that that caused the marriage to end?

Like yes, so there's still kind of glarouce.

Yeah.

So obviously he didn't like do the whole thing of like, no, didn't do the work back and work on himself now, h No, okay, got it?

Did he listen to the podcast braid? Are you serious?

All right?

Fuck you dude, that's petty get alive.

Interesting is he will call my kid, Like over the summer when everybody was home, he would call and I did you hear my daughter say hello?

And the next question, well, she's good. Yeah, the podcast is going good, and I.

Was just wait what.

I would immediately call her like why the fuck does he here and tell him what you said?

It was so funny.

I was just like, you know, he's probably sitting there listening to the podcast and listening to us a rag on him beating off because he's a sick fuck.

It's one just like fast forward in to hear a little bit about them. Yes, they love it. They're exactly right.

N We refer to him as the ex husband or incidents where we were conducting investigations against.

Him, you know, like full blown, you know.

CIA style investigations, and we mentioned these things in our podcast.

I'm like, that's sick. I can't get enough.

Damn between that and the guy that was married. I do see what you're saying with your picker.

The problem is me, well right, but it's more like you know, shame, like getting on yourself, which isn't I don't know that if you're doing this or not, you tell me, but like you okay, so it's per personal responsibility. Can't hurt, It can't hurt, It can only help, right, So like when you look back, I know Kraame was asking this earlier, Like when you look back, was there did you get what you needed.

From your from your parents?

Like emotionally in some ways?

Yes?

In some ways now, okay, I mean it would just I have to say there were a lot of things that were really really good, yeah, really supportive. Parents thought I was the queen of the world. But I just felt this incredible need to be perfect, and I felt a lot of judgment.

Right because you were saying there's Southern religious upraising is like girls have to be so goddamn play's is that the one where they do? I know when I was growing up, they did the father daughter virginity dance thing. They didn't call it that, but like the dad gave the girl over the purity ring.

Yes that is now, we didn't do that.

We weren't that bad.

It's still happening.

Don't govern my pussy.

How about that get out get your giant.

Yeah yeah, no, there was a lot of a lot of those messages, but not that particularly. But I mean, I I do know people that have given their kids purity rings in the last ten years.

The fuck is not not crazy, I know. I love to just zoom in on Instagram at Southern people in my circle and see if they're wearing promised rings or purity rings. I find it it's really fun because I don't I don't know if it's like obsessed with the fact that someone could be like twenty six and still hasn't felt dick. I don't know. It's fascinating. While it's interesting and.

I'm like, we were just such a disservice, right, I think it's really dangerous too. I think it's like the one thing that we're hardwired to do as a species is to reproduce, to perpetuate the species. So it's the one thing that like it's an impulse. It's like breathing or eating, and we have all these hormones pumping through our bodies, and so to deny yourself those urges, especially for like religious shaming reasons, I think it's really dangerous to your you know, your time on Earth moving forward, because.

You've got to love your body.

You've got to you know, there's old kids are going to automatically go, well God, if God says this is bad, our Church says this is bad, I'm going to hell. I have these urges, so I am bad. You know your whole life from this I am bad perspective, and that'll get you. You'll be holing it up in all the wrong places. It's not religion, it's something else.

But like, but yeah, that's that's Did you ever have like a come to Jesus. I don't mean to use that like a pun pun, but like with your parents of kind of did you ever have the moment where you got to say fuck, fuck these beliefs that you held, the standards that you helped me to.

No, And I never went I mean, I'm still you don't have a desire to. It's just she's how she is. Yeah, we have a pretty good like she doesn't listen to the podcast. We don't talk about it. Yeah, because cussing is.

Right rich right up there on the list is a bad bad.

Character traits so funny.

So and that you know, she did call me, she did listen to one and she was like, I just don't think anybody appreciates kussing and yeah, yah, yeah, yeah, yeah canap and I was like, just don't listen.

Let's just make a deal. You don't listen, I won't talk about it. We're good to go. Yeah, and so it's been fine since then. Nice. It's so funny like your mom and your daughter always your mom and dad. Right, it just really change very job, right, you know, I keep like, I keep waiting to be like, you know, like I'm a full yet an adult. I own a home, I've started a business. And then you're like, okay, well, I'm just always going to let my mom, you know, be my mom, right, you know, there's because that's like what that's her job. I get that joy and right, yeah, I'm like, I'm like, why am I trying to even stop it? It's always going to be.

Like that, right, And I don't think I think my mom does it. It has no desire to change. And it's like I'm not going to drag her to therapy. And it's just everybody's good where we are now, right, It's fine. It's never going to be perfect, but I don't know that anything's perfect.

Well, being human is to be fucked right in some way.

Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's even interesting to hear you both talk about childhood traumacs. I feel like that's like a very like millennial, like the millennials, Like we kind of ore the people people to be like I have childhood trauma and I'm doing all this mental health work and like screaming it from the rooftop. But like did you were you inspired by millennials or this is just like your own thing that you found you did the work by yourselves. No, it wasn't like a period of time.

So I mean like millennials didn't discover therapy.

No, I.

Know, we didn't discover it where we're all in therapy while the millennials were still relax my at home. But like our generation, we were raised by boomers and like my dad fought Vietnam and there's a whole generation of men that come home. Sure had families and raised their families with undiagnosed PTSD.

Right, it was very real.

And so I think that we're gen xers, and I think that our generation started a little bit more so than maybe the Boomers did with therapy.

Yes, although my mother boomers think they did.

Well to bring therapy to Like it's when it's like it's like you're crazy likes for like you like making like masturbating women in for their appointments for hysteria, Like that was the boomers, that's what they were telling U.

Yeah, but my mother, like.

She she went to see a therapist, and so you know, again I was raised by this incredible rest in person. Yeah, and because she was trying to understand her mother's borderline personality to sort and alcoholism. And then of course then she marries my dad and my parents are still married. I love my dad dearly, but there's no question he has undiagnosed PTSD, right, which is why my pick is broken onto me see issues the whole night. So I had to dig into that. So, you know, but I will say this about therapy. I went, and I went, and I finally had to tell my therapist I'm good. Yeah, I can't come in here and nitpick everything because they're just going to take your money every week, over and over. And so once I had all of the big issues settled and I had enough tools in my toolbox to like self soothe and resolve my own conflict resolution, then I don't go that frequently anymore because I noticed when I went frequently, I was riled up about stuff that I didn't need to be like what about this and my boundary here and my boundary there instead of just downsweat the small stuff sys power through Life.

Yeah, water off a duck's back, you know. And so yeah, that was really hard for me to absorb. But now I mean I'm doing all right. That's great.

Yeah, you definitely got to take breaks and go back to what if you need to. But yeah, sometimes you're like, all right, I talked this out. I want to fucking I need to like stare at a wall for your you know, like so exhausting. It's exhausting to think about yourself all the guy it is.

It is exhausting. It's not good. Well that's kind of what I mean by like, millennials became obsessed with mental health, and it's kind of like all you talk about and almost like every issue is blamed on some disorder, a personality disorder, or something that happened a long time ago, and you're like, okay, so it's but there has to be some kind of a middle ground here. We acknowledge what happened that it was bad. We acknowledge what's going on in our heads that's broken, whether we can fix it or not. Or kind of just learn to live with it and then but how do we still be a decent person and not get all that shit on other people? I agree, I.

Agree with you. I think that there's a happy medium there.

I think people can, like the art of going to therapy can become almost addictive.

Oh, labeling everybody, and.

I even felt feeling. I was like, I was like, I can't wait to talk to Kirson and then and when that happened, I was like, we're going to push that appointment because you need to learn how to get through this. And it's like, you're so right. It's like you start worrying about things. That's like, this is unnecessary to worry about picking shit to pict suit. Yeah shit, Yeah, you're like, I don't need to spend one hundred and fifty dollars on why someone was mean to me.

Right, you know, because people suck. That's why I want soul shit.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Yeah, once you realize nothing is personal and it's all on the like, if somebody is being an assholes, it's whatever's going on in there, right, and it's not your responsibility to figure it out. If you don't have the desire to, then fine, Like then your life gets a lot easier. Not taking things personally is like kind of the key.

Realized it's cryptis it really is. My daughter is she's a big therapy person. She's a big mental health person, and she's very committed to it. She's in she wants to be a therapist, and she's in school and all that. But I always get nervous when I'm like, hey, how is your day. Oh, I just had a great session with my therapist.

I mean it was great. And one was like if you're getting a high off, right, something up?

And I keep telling her all the time, like, anxiety free life is not a destination. It's not like an island that you get to take your boat out to, which I mean, it's just a little bit of progress all the time. Everybody has anxiety every day, all day long. Yeah, it's how you deal with that. But yeah, that's so funny that you said that, Like I'm looking forward to my therapist.

Is reminded me of her.

Yeah, with therapy.

Today, I know, it's like with activism too.

I was listening to this really interesting podcast called The witch Trials of JK Rowling, and she was taught I don't know if it was JK was talking about this or what of the hosts, but they were like, if you get a high off of act in terms of activism, like if you're marching on the streets and you get a rush from your activism, you're doing it for the wrong reasons. And like, I'm like, oh, it took me a minute to think about that, because the only thing I see is people getting highs off of their activism or kind of like boasting about it. Not that it's a bad thing to boast about, but like kind of in it for the wrong Raisins are tying their self as seem to the cause or something, or being too invested into the cause, Like you need to have some healthy amount of the distance. And I think it's like that with mental health too, Like you gotta have you gotta fucking chill on the mental health stuff.

Just go through, run through a field. I really want to talk about a topic that we've not talked about on the show. But I'm obsessed with this topic because I don't fucking know anything about it, menopause. Oh and I hear when I hear women talk about it.

I'm like, it's it is a crime that this has not talked about often, because then when I hear women like have perimenopause and stuff where they have it early or when they do have it, they're like, no one fucking told me any of this shit, right, And then a lot of women when they have give birth for the first time, they're like, no one told me about X, Y Z part of giving birth or like that this might happen. I'm like, women are so misinformed with what happens in their bodies. So I wanted to ask you if you have experience with that and what is it and what Yeah, I just want to talk about it.

Well, I got a hysterect to me when I was forty okay, so I had never taken hormones nothing. So I just this last year, well, Jennifer sent me because I was like on ozimbic and I can't lose weight.

And I'm like, what the fuck is diabetes? Like three months and didn't lose one. You have got to go see somebody.

It looks like a crackhead.

How have you not lost any weight?

So I saw this indocinologist. She took on my blood work and she was like, do you feel tired, do you feel brain fog. Do you feel low energy? Do you feel like you can't focus? And I'm like, I mean, I mean, I guess I probably feel but that's just how you know. I just thought that's what this was, that was normal. So we get all my blood work back and it's like, you have no hormones, nothing, none, none, So they put pellets in my ass and I'm not kidding you, Like within three days, I was like, let's conquer the world.

Let's concentratet for three hours. The brain fog was on cocaine.

No, it's estrogen and testosterone. And then I take a progester and pill. But because I had just like no hormones and I didn't realize I could have felt this great this whole time. Thirteen years later, I know I.

Want these pellets. Yeah, So what was it? What's happening was happening in your body that you didn't have any of those well I had like I mean, like not to be crude, but I had no irrected me but.

Like vaginal dryness, but all that stuff that when you're a sexual flash not saying when you had sex with the.

Merryg no, no, no, no, no, no, you didn't use real wet for him.

No, no, no, how did you know it? No?

I mean it was that was enough. But there were just other dryness issues that I.

Noticed, like Chase, like you know what, he spit in it.

And it was like hearing.

Like when you would wipe sometimes it would get super dry and all that, and so I was just like, not like chafing really, but like if toilet paper hurt to you, yeah, just stuff like that.

And so when I saw her, she was just like, oh my god. And I'm not. I mean, I think everyone should have their hormone checked. I'm like a raw.

Issue. So I got yeah, okay, okay, but I did.

Since I had like the rapid hormone menopause thing at forty and I didn't take hormones. I did get Like I remember one time I was walking out in my backyard and I was so fucking hot that I just jumped in my pool fully closed.

I was just like this that I'm so hot, and I would like it's bad. Yeah, I have some some of my female friends, I'll have hot flashes and it's all of a sudden, there's second they just go from cold to sweating, and you're like, yo, what the fuck is that like, oh, it's a hot flash. I'm like, what the fuck?

What?

So I yeah, I just it's crazy that we this is not talked about, like, yeah, like all the experience of.

It, Yeah, because everyone ever woman has it at some point, right, but I do. It surprises me every time I see Jennifer and she's like, oh, I'm on my period.

I'm like, you still have so you have an experience, yeah, somehow an experience in the thirties.

That's I think it's per Yeah, well, yeah, I.

Believe it's Naomi watched like we were we were in a movie, but Christina hasn't seen it yet because she was out of town during the premiere. But yeah, it's so in periodical they talk about that, and it's I believe it's Naomi Wats who comes on and she got she got the first signs of menopause in her thirties, and that's why I was like, I need to learn about it now. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, just in case, because oftentimes they said it basically mirrors when your mother started going through menopause.

Oh yea, yeah, so I was.

Like forty nine and I still have mentally periods.

Yeah, do you think period did you ever have a period? Horrible periods?

But I've had an IUD that I get every five years and so it makes them very mild. But I had horrible periods, yeah, cramps, but I still have a spot, you know, once every thirty days.

Yeah, okay, I got my hormones checked.

Yeah, it's a game changer. Yeah, because I didn't realize that testosters what keep your mind clear?

Which crazy? Yeah, because.

She was like that testosterone what I mean, men are stupid? But no, I mean she was like, you don't have brain fog or anything. And I was like, we not really, And I mean I swear to.

God, you didn't think you did.

I didn't think I didn't. That's where I went.

I mean, I was just like whoa, wow, And it's crazy. They put pelts up your butt, not up your butt. They make a little incision in like your butt cheek. Oh, and they just slided it and they put like you on an eye you're ingesting. Yeah, it was like in your ass, part of your ass's not but it's in my ass making no mistake, like on your bet cheek.

And they put it in and once every three months.

Wow.

Cool, Okay, I'm gonna do that tomorrow much checked. Get a pellet in your ass.

Get a pellet in your ass.

I'll just get in the office and bend over and like, what are you doing?

Sorry?

Hmm, yeah you wait.

So can you take testosterone as a woman to clear your mind? I mean it feels like if you're low on it. My doctor has Yeah, you would have to take it. But I will tell you I didn't.

I haven't had like breaking out or anything, but I have noticed, like I was having looking asking my lash girl. I was like, you do you wax my lip? And she was like, oh my gosh, it's awful. It's like a full mess day bitch.

Yeah, but I don't. Maybe I would have had that anyway.

Yeah right, yeah, who knows.

You know, fifty three just you start having Yeah, I mean that's having to me early, like a thirty one so oh wow.

Yeah.

So another thing that's obviously like we're in a time where like we have to decide if we want to have kids or not. We talk about this every week. I'm pretty much know Christina yes one week and know the other Now I'm kind.

Of a no.

Now, oh wow, yeah, you were really she held a baby a couple of weeks ago. So she was really really a hard yes, but yeah, it's.

Hard hard yet now it's changed.

And then Casey let me hold her baby again, okay, and then I was like still hard.

Yes.

And then because we have a lot of friends who just had babies, especially because it's like New York City, people will kind of like wait until forty to do it basically, especially in like comedians and stuff. So you held the baby again, and then the baby was me no, no, no, the baby's dope.

I still liked it, but I held the baby maybe like a week ago was the last time I held the baby. And she's my neighbor, who's our colleague who is too just had a baby.

Uh yeah, I don't know.

I'm just too there's so much I need to work on in myself that I see so glaring that I'm like I can't.

Well, what's kind of question to you, Like, so did you what was the process? And like did you think were you always gonna have kids? Did you think a lot about it? Did it depend on who you met? Like I think I just think that like people kind of just go, I'm gonna get married and have kids, and they don't actually think they don't think about it, So, like, what was the process for you? If there was one.

Exactly exactly what you said, you just did it just We're going to get married and have kids, like about it.

Live in Oklahoma City.

Yeah.

This whole thing that your generation is going through as women, I think is so awesome. Where you're pausing and you're planning and you're thinking, do I want to have kids? Do I not want to have kids? Do I like somebody enough to have kids? Do I want to go shop for sperm and a sperm bank? I think it is so liberating and I think it is so awesome for us.

It was just it was toime just what expected. Why you didn't even think about.

Atheist family and from a Southern Baptist family, it was just a cultural thing. Like I graduated from high school in ninety two, and I knew that I knew sometime within ten years, ten to twelve years, I knew I would have a kid. I just knew that that there wasn't that process that your generation is going through. And I think it's really cool that you all are doing that. And I think people embracing women that don't have kids, that choose not to is super important because you know, nobody thinks anything about a man.

That doesn't that's right. I'm not a god. You never hear the phrase working dad never.

It's really cool that you all are thinking. But I would say this, don't make the decision right now. Just live your life and just know that you don't want a kid this second. You might meet some hot ass guy and you're like, I totally.

Like his genetics.

I think it's great, DNA, I'm totally having a kid with this guy, and then you might just date loser after loser, you know, like pumps and I have.

I have a kid with them anyway, Yeah, because I think it's like a lot of people think it's like this flippant feminist decision to not have kids, and I was like, I she knew. I have spent more time thinking about whether or not or not to have children than pretty much anyone I know who has children. And I can like, like, I've thought about it so much from every angle, from a like a contribution to the world angle, all the way down to like a day to day when I look at the clock, I would have to be driving someone to school right now. Would that make me wanted to take my own life.

You know, right, I mean.

To the big picture, I've thought about it. I mean, COVID was a great time to just and I know Nikki Glazer actually had talked about that that she literally sat through COVID and she was like, and she spent a lot of that time thinking like do I want kids or not?

When you're on the fence, I mean, I don't. Yeah, I guess you just either do it you don't. I don't know.

I don't even know how well, how do you even know? That's like, you know, like you have to if you give yourself too many options. It's like, well, now, decision overload, right, or like a choice overload. I what is a good reason?

I don't know. I don't know.

I think I would be good at raising a child because I understand that you just like help them be themselves and like just and be there for them. And obviously you know, inject your adult you know how to be responsible and safe with yourself.

But other than that, I'm like, I don't know what the what makes a good yes and what makes a good no?

I don't know.

It's really hard.

It's hard.

Being a mother is really hard. Yeah, and nobody tells you about this, but it's very lonely. Yeah, really, yeah, it is a lonely Yeah, I feel a loneliness because, like right now, because you you're texting your friends, you're doing stuff, and you think, if you're single and childless, you would be lonely having this little baby at home and it's solely dependent upon.

You, and you're the only person that loves it as much. You're more than any other person.

There's something.

Didn't you feel lonely?

Yes, I've had this lonely that isolation.

And my nephew, his wife just had a baby, and I asked her and the baby's about a year old now, so those first six eight months, did you feel lonely?

And she goes yes, wldbody says that right, and there is it's wonderful, right.

But at the same time, I think it's important to change the conversations about childhood so that women know it's the best thing that happened to you, right, and the worst at the exact same time. Both of those things are true. You know, some people have such a hard time holding on to compound thoughts. Yeah, two different feelings at the same time, And motherhood is that wonderful and awful yeah, all at the same time.

Yeah, we've definitely had a lot of really interesting discussions about like postpartum on the show. And how I think out of that discussion we were talking about like after the baby comes out of the woman, everyone's just soapsassed with the baby and one gives a shit.

To ask you know, of course, how are you feeling?

Yes, but like, so I went to see my friend Daria, who has a beautiful baby, and I was going to give her all these gifts. I'm like, I didn't give anything for the baby. I just got stuff for her. I got her a dress.

I got her like like a cute knit dress.

And I'm like, I just want to shower you with gifts because I feel like no one, like the mom should be taken care of by everybody around her after she gives birth.

I imagine that that's got to be a wild mind fuck.

Yeah, that's so thoughtful.

That really mean, that's the perfect Yes, I'm like, oh, how can we change the way we treat like new mothers and stuff. I'm like, oh, that's one way. It's like, get gifts for the mom, not the not the kid. The kid's fine. Kids has too many dresses.

Yeah, no, I know my mom. My mom was like, when my best friend had a baby, she was like, you know, anytime you guys hang out, she's like, don't just go over there because you want to like see the baby too. She was like, let Paula come to the city, you know, let her time, Yeah, come out. She like probably wants see it out of the house. Because anytime you talk to a new mother there, they seem very eager to speak because they want to speak to another adult, not like a kid.

But yeah, it's just very very Yeah, it's fascinating.

One of the things that the things that you've learned most from being a mother or like that are valuable that you were able to integrate into your own life outside of I mean, you're always a mom, but like as your kids grow up and they don't need you as much on the day to day anymore.

I think it.

You know, I think the best thing that you can do with kids is let them be themselves. You know, like Angie was talking about, her mother wants her to be sure a certain way, and it's really easy to get into those trappings. Like my oldest son, he is twenty, he goes to Syracuse. He's really progressive. He's super awesome. I'm really into clothes, and so is my husband. My son is like thrift shopper and he wears like these clothes that are like really bagging, and some of them have holes in them. And it is so hard on Josh and me, and I know that sounds vapid. I get shallow and I know it is, but I tell Josh all the time.

We have to let him do this.

He gets to go to the thrift store.

He's doing it for like, He's like, I don't need to buy new clothes. There's all of these clothes that exist. Doing it for like earnest, environmental. Yes, it's really cool, progressive, and so you know, we'll go out. We go to Italy and we're on this bougie vacation and I'm like, I just really kindly.

I'm like, Dylan, can you wear a little bit more tailored clothing.

He's like, I get it, Mom, I'm not trying to intervene, but you have this vision of what you want your young to be, like they are an extension of you, and there's just some of that is in your DNA. It's tribal kind of life, and I don't like that about me. I don't like that I try to influence what he would wear in Italy.

Because why he's twenty. Yeah, he can wear what he wants to wear.

He's a great kid, he makes good grades, he's in you know, New How school of journalism. I couldn't be prouder, but it's and so I think that's helped me, like with other things, like just let everybody be themselves, take what you want from people, and.

Leave, you know, leave the rest.

I don't particularly like, you know, some of his fashion sens, but everybody at Syracuse stress is the exact same way.

Why am I being a nut about it?

Important for somebody, a young person and they're especially like a twenty years old to like fit in and feel like that and discover what their style is and express themselves through this. Like sometimes the joy of thrifting, like I used to thrift in high school and college, was like finding, digging and digging and digging and you find something you're like, holy shit, yachtzi you know, and like kind of yeah.

You know what he did want just to troll me.

You went to the thrift store and then he got he bought this shirt and he goes, oh, mom, I got this shirt at the third store.

You're gonna love it.

And he comes downstairs and it's like an American flag with a bald eagle says Jesus saves, and the eagle has like a cross. And I was like, not wear that outside there was because Mom, it's Oklahoma fit and find.

Good sense of humor. I thought it was pretty. He was like, it was a dollar. It was worth it for you can.

Wear that Brooklyn. Ironically, that would be a hit. That would be a hit. Yeah, I have no idea.

What have you learned, INDI from motherhood? Gotta wear fear show tomorrow.

You know, I learned that.

I I'm a very selfish person by nature, but I really I mean, like when when you become a mom, you start thinking in terms of other you know, of these children, and you have to put their needs first. And so I was very scared in the beginning to let them fail. I wanted to fix everything. I didn't want them to fail. I didn't want them to ever have their feelings. Are all that shit that they need? They have to have it, Yeah, they have to have it. And so it's like it's okay to fail. It's how you failed it's important. It's getting back up that's important. And so watching them do that as they get older and handle it gracefully is so nice that I've also learned I really like to be by.

Myself older too.

I leave for college and they come home this summer and I'm like, why aren't they going back? Yeah, like they're messy, Yeah, there's more laundry. I don't have to go to the grocery stores.

Sound being the only person in the physically in the house is like, that is imperative for your soul and your spirits to like you need to be the only person in the fucking home.

Isn't that weird?

Like there's a difference in somebody being home and being in a different bedroom.

You feel their energy even if they're not talking to yet, you know they're there.

When they were little, they would I would take them to school and it would just take me an hour at my house to like regroup for the day because it's cool. I'm never in my house alone right right, Never by myself. Always have this thing going around. And so my daughter, she's we're together every minute this summer, and I was just like so Jidifer, I can't wait.

Yeah, it's gonna be blissful.

It's gonna be It's both nice. I can get in bed and watch whatever I want.

Yeah, it's gonna be great.

No, that's one of the one things that I was worried about with, like having ken. I don't think I could have someone in the house for eighteen years. I don't think. I don't think it's possible.

I don't how to do it.

So we have to wrap up. But this has been amazing that I feel like I could talk to you guys for many more hours. Where what would you like to promote? Where can we find you online? Where can we give more of you?

Okay, you can follow us at I've had It podcast, on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, that on us run by a millennial that knows how to properly account.

Those are A plus social feeds. They are for about a C.

Minus social feed You can follow me at miss welch m I z z w E l c H for a D minus possible.

You can follow at Pumps Pumps Pumps, I Just.

Had It rest just got on the Instagram less than a year agoest, So I'm terrible all that, but our podcast socials are great people who know how to do it, who know like to properly make a proper you know, Instagram account, ye may talk or whatever.

Yeah, that's great, all right, and then what are you doing? You have your the segment we have to Yeah we talked for Oh they need to leave as the thing I was like, got god, I got it?

Got it?

Okay? All right, Well then thank you so much for joining us tonight and tomorrow. Thank you.

Yeah.

This has been Guys We Fun the anti slot screaming podcast. We'll talk to you next Friday. Guys We Fucked is presented by Luminary, Created and hosted by Karin Fisher and Christina Hutchinson. Editing and music coordination by Mike Coscarelli. Theme song by Rob Patterson and Jake Cozen.

Stuck my wet ass pussy.

Christina said to cut that before, but now it's in there.

Yeah, let's keep it.

Who cares somehow?

Still good? Bad number and die already have another stuck covers and sans memories, Summon Nasa before stay give me the boone next door. You be mine and I be yours.

Hovages It was before for something change when I pass my mind, then maybe we should go and enter this game, because now you're gone and have tried to move on and all that.

You'll come back to me, I'll say, because you still got.

My number and die already.

Have another love of We are so stuck Condoma co pers in dat Dreams of Wombs US Summer

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