What up, fuckers. It's Christina Hutchinson and Karin Fisher. You are about to listen to a clip from Guys We Fucked, the anti select shaming podcast. On this week's episode, we talked to psychotherapist Alyssa Marie. We talk anxiety and relationships and first dates. We talk attachment styles. We read a crazy New York Post article about a lot of what I would call incestuous sex. But you make the decision for yourself. We answer an interesting email from a fucker. If you want to hear the whole thing, you're gonna head over to uh apple Pie not and oh it's right there. You're gonna head over to apple dot CEO slash GWF where you can subscribe to the luminary channel and here the whole fucking thing. And you're gonna want to do that because what you're missing out on a lot is the answer. So you are a therapist? What what what can you can you interest? Tell us what all you do? Raicky? What what's like the scope of what you do? Okay, So I'm a licensed medical social worker, which means that I am a mental health therapist. I am in private practice. I own a group practice, UM. I also contribute to writings with different magazines, and I talked about anxiety, trauma, UM depression. Within my group practice, there is a raiky healer. So I don't do the raiky, but there is a raiky healer because I do believe that there's just kind of like a holistic way to treat the human body, the human spirit of the mind. So yeah, it feels like Western medicine kind of missed a lot of stuff, like like the the way that the way that a patient is treated. Um. I was. I was listening to this Ted talk and I was like, Wow, that's a really fucking good point. That's therapist. It's the one area of doctors where this specialist doesn't actually look at the organ they're treating, which I thought that was very interesting. I'm like, oh, yeah, no one has ever taking a brain scan of of me to, you know, to before they start therapy. Um and I've seen I saw a psychiatrist ones and that it wasn't even a thing. I've never even heard of that. UM. So I just yeah, it's really interesting to see how Western medicine approaches people is kind of one note. So it seems like you have a more well rounded approach to making somebody feel Yeah. Amen, exactly. So when you're treating when you're treating people for trauma, do you are you someone who like, I don't want to say prescribes, but do you recommend other holistic methods as part of your practice? Personally? I do so. It really it's one of those things where you know, everybody is truly unique and everybody is truly different, so what might work for one person may not work for another person. But overall, yeah, I do recommend other mortalities. I do recommend energy healing for some people. I do recommend therapy. I do recommend medication, UM E M d R. There's just so many things that an E E M d R. I the eye movement, the rabid eye movement. Yeah, I'm also tourist. Could you explain the how that works and why that works? As I'm I'm like, oh, I've I've read about it once and I remember being interested in it, but then I forgot what It's super fascinating and it's even as I'm going to describe it, I think it's still going to be very kind of like hard to understand unless you're actually in it. But the premise is trauma is stored in the body, so the issue is in the tissue, right, So it's like held in ourselves. So you can talk about the things you've been through verbally, rationally, cognitively, but you can still experience the anxiety, the panic, and flashbacks. So that's kind of where the trauma is stored. It's like physically in a So what E M d R does is it is a practice for your eye movements go back and forth, you know, like this, and it's thought to stimulate rem sleep. And so while your eye movements are going back and forth like this, the idea is that you're able to recall things that you've experienced both up here like memories and over here physically in short spurts. So it's like exposures, but in short spurts. Okay, yeah, I can really see how that would be helpful. What do you do you ever, I'm really interested. I have experienced childhood trauma kind of just discovered the concept of childhood trauma um about five years ago, i would say, and it felt like a huge click for me because it's like, oh, all of these things that you were like, is that fucked up? And then you get confirmation that, oh, a child shouldn't actually go through that, Like, that's a really intense your nervous system was overworked, And there's a lot of people on this planet whose nervous systems, as children, were overworked, and these um people being triggered, like psychologically triggered. I feel like it happens a lot um. What are the what are the signs to the uh that point to you being psychologically triggered, because it's like one of the it seems like one of the fastest ways to prevent that from happening is to be aware as it's happening. What are the what are the signs that you tell people to look out for if you if you do well, absolutely so, there's uh this thing. It's like if the situation is like level four, but your response to it is level twenty. Yeah, uh ha, and your response is like level twenty, that's a sign that something else is being activated within you. That's a sign that there's something deeper going on. How do you figure out is there a way to figure out what the deeper thing is so you can nip it in the bud Because it's like the talk therapy, you know, you logically understand something right, and you can go, Okay, yes, that sucked me up. Okay, this was mom did this or dad did this or whatever whatever your experience was. But is there what a pinpoint the moment that keeps being repeated? So in E M d R we do this thing called the floatback technique. So let's say in present day situation, something is happening with you and a friend and your reaction is like level twenty, even though what actually happened was really kind of not that a terrible So in E M d R we would kind of focus on the feeling that it's activating in you. So it's like I felt abandoned, I felt rejected. You know, whatever you're feeling is valid. And then so the technique we do is called floatback technique, So it's like, okay, tap into that feeling and can you remember a time where you felt that way before you remember? And then you kind of just keep floating back. Can you can you go earlier than that? Can you go earlier than that? And then we kind of just see the earliest memory you can go where that same feeling was activated kind of the first time. Okay, so you go to the first time that you remember it, it's easy for me minds all of the past ten years. She's always like, can you go back? I'm like, two, it was two boyfriends, and I haven't. I have Instagram evidence of my trauma. Yeah. Mine all happened when I was a kid. And I feel like, even this morning i walk, I'll get in these modes where they have the temper Oh my god, and I'm even as it's happening, I'm like, why the funk are you this angry? Christina? And then then only of course makes it worse. Um, So it's really hard to ground yourself when you're in the midst of like an anger rage, and then as someone Okay, so as someone I'm around a lot of people and perhaps dating one who people who react it like kind of exactly like you said. I actually had to talk with some of the other day. I'm like, this thing happened. It was like a level two and you reacted like a level So like, how how how do I I find I? I just told him. I was like, I was like, it's really scary. Even though the anger was not directed towards me, it was actually directed at an inanimate object. But like it's I was like, you have to understand that's like very scary for a person to be around. So can I was like, can you please hand or whatever that is? But like, how how can I be there for someone but also create a boundary that makes me feel safe in a situation like that? What do you want to say? Uh, react like a normal human being. But that's rude. So I would never say that. But you know, as somebody who I have, I have this problem as you about like I have it and I and I I don't know, I feel like that would might help if I heard that. I mean, it's like you have to keep in mind we're all comedians, so like sometimes like roasting is is helpful, but like this is like someone who I'm like newly dating and like you know, very good at communication because gen z Um, I'm a millennial. But and then but it's just I just don't and then this is not this is just a something that happened recently, but it happens throughout my life, especially dealing with a lot of artistic people just like very high reaction levels. And I think I have the opposite, which is like I underreact almost everything. I'm kind of like not not fased by very much, which is helpful as somebody who gets triggered a lot me when she underreacts. It calms me down, but can't it's also can't be fun for you though I can't imagine, well, I mean it doesn't. I just like I'm not like faking under reaction. I'm just like it just it takes a lot to really like phase me because I feel like very I feel very safe in me. Um. It's other people that make me feel unsafe all pretty much all the time, not like physically, more like emotionally m hm. So I think it's important to just state what it is that you need. So first you have to identify what it is that you need. Do you need space? Do you need a different tone? Do you need um to reconvene in like twenty minutes? Do you need to go for a walk. So try not to focus it on what the other person needs to do, because that's why people can get really defensive totally, But just focus on what it is that you need. What what can you control within yourself? So like, I love the idea of stepping away, and I'm a big step away person because usually if I go walk away for ten twenty minutes, I can come back. I'm pretty much never so mad unless it's like I mean, I can't even really think of any times. But in my experience, people take like people feel like that's like abandonment, and I go, well, I mean, it's not because I'm I'm walking away so that I don't I don't also meet your energy that is at an irrational level right now, know, because for me that that's just like step away and be with the person I feel safe with, which is mem you know. And so that's a lot and that's logical. But people get so upset when you do that. Abandonment issues get like it's easy to put salt in that wound. Man, I wish it wasn't. I wish everyone would have abandoned me. It's just, especially if you're a loving and caring person, you want to at the same time fix that and be like, I'm not abandon you, and then rescue that and then heal that and then just pure. However, the boundary is that's not your work, right there. What's your job as a friend, as a coworker, as a whatever the relationship is, it's your job. Every it's fair to ask to tell to expect somebody to be able to handle themselves. You would think people get real picked And I can't imagine that. I haven't been there. I had to have been there before because I have abandonment stuff too, and that it makes you nasty. Abandonment issues make you a nasty like a desperation comes up like yeah, and it's gross like yeah. And then when you're self aware on top of that, you're like, oh, I know how gross I'm being you. I hate and you just want to fix it. It's a whole mess. You want to get rid of it. You want it to just yeah, you don't want to feel it? Yeah? Have you heard of hell or work? No? What is that? Oh? Man, Okay, so it's UM. I think it was. Joseph Heller is the name of the practitioner who came up with it. It's basically, UM body work. You you go on a massage table. It's body work, UM, and it's getting the stored trauma out of your actual body instead of doing talk therapy. It combines very minor talk therapy. UM. But it like I the very first session I had, I had read about it in this book UM, and so I just kind of googled it and was like, oh, perfect, there's a woman who does it on my block or a couple of blocks over. I went to her, and I've been seeing her for like six months now. She will touch my stomach and I'll just start crying, as if you know when you see a kid crying, it's drawing and you're like, oh my god, that child is going through such a turmoil. It's like that, like instantly. But the crazy thing is, as I'm crying, I'm not actually sad. It's just like it truly feels like an exorcism, and she's like manipulating like my stomach muscles and it's wild. That's it. I'm gonna have to look this up. It's you know, it really in line with her. The practitioner and I had a big conversation before the first session about The Body Keeps the Score, which was revolutionary book. When I read it, I was so happy to have found that because I feel like it gave me a lot of answers to two personal problems. Helps you understand why your reactions are the way that they are. Yeah, how how do you recommend UM? E? D M R. Certainly UM something you can do UM to be less reactive? What are like some basic things that anybody can do to be less reactive? So there are a few things. The first is self awareness, right, so you have to just be aware that your reactions can be intense, and you have to also acknowledge that it can be problematic if you don't think it's a problem, and then you're never gonna want to fix it. So the first step is self awareness, and then to be less reactive, UM, there's just regular coping strategies like breathing exercises, learning what you need for your nervous system to calm down, so that can be going for a walk, listening to music, taking a break, things like that. UM On just like a cognitive thinking level, you want to recognize what your thought patterns are and the stories that you're telling yourself about a situation. Typically when we get reactive, UM, these negative thought schemas come up. So these are like patterns and are thinking like everybody hates me, um, everybody is against me, nobody understands me. You want to be very aware of the stories you're telling yourself and then just take the time to unpack where those stories come from and then just It's also a lot of retraining your mind to think in a different way, whether it's neutral, positive, whatever, perspective taking, but just kind of unraveling those negative schemas. Yeah, do you often find that it's not the negative voices in people's heads that kind of called you know, I often feel like when I the anger gets activated, I'm at a fork in the road. I can go left, which is, let's get even more piste and do some damage, or I can go right, where it usually involves a nap or like meditating right away something something that's like drastically calming. Uh. And but I eventually always realized that that voice isn't mine. It belonged to mom or dad or like you know, oh that ship that because it's like I learned to be that mean to myself somehow. Um And I'm like, yeah, yeah, So I always find that that's very helpful to identify who's the first person that said this to me that I'm now regurgitating it to myself. Yep, yep. And another thing that I like to ask clients is like, whose voice does this sound? Like? Who does it remind you of? Yeah, because it kind of, you know, it kind of has to be somebody else's voice, right like people. Children, when you're born, you're so malleable obviously, and um, children out of all species of living creatures have the longest childhood there with their parents for so long. A ten years is the longest time when you think of other animals and how they operate. Um, and then it kind of makes sense why we're all fucking raging maniacs a little bit. Um, But uh yeah, I feel like you you have to learn to be that cruel to yourself. It has to be taught to you, just like just like you know, shitty behaviors and shitty attitudes are always either taught to you by example or you know, drilled into you as a result of being mistreated. Absolutely, our childhood lays the blueprint for how we experience ourselves and the people around us. Um. Everything that we do is learned, whether from society or within our immediate family. It's all learned to learn behavior. So yes, Um, how do you recognize codependency in a relationship? So, the simplest way I think to define codependency is, like you, you feel this need to fix, rescue, or save the other person at the expense of your own mental health. Right, So it's like loyalty at the expense of your mental health might be codependency, and it's this like, uh, difficulty to identify where one person ends and you begin. So you kind of just feel like you're just like in this yeah, like together, um, and a core symptom of it is it's at the expense of your mental health. How do you know when your mental health is being coned? I feel like some people don't understand that your mental health is being their mental health is being compromised, because that's just the way they've lived their whole entire life. Like you don't understand that you're in fight or flight until the very first time you actually calmed down and realize that's what you're supposed to be like all the time. M hmm, how do you Okay? So the question is like, how do you recognize you're in a codependent situation? Am I trying to fix this person? Am I trying to save this person? Am I trying to rescue this person? And am I having these constant thoughts like we'll be happy when right this hump. We just have to get past the decision and we have to get past this thing. Yeah, they said, we'll be happy when they still grew up. We'll be happy when they stop hurting me. It's just kind of like you're just waiting for this person to change um constantly and then you're putting in Also, I think more work than they are. You're looking you're you're doing all the like work for them to change. You're you're you're more of a like a caretaker than you are a partner. So a woman in a stranger all right, Well, I think like what I look for, like what I look for, and I'm like, I'm like pretty anti relationship, but I am in a relationship right now and it's going well, you know, knock on whatever this is. And so I mean what I look for as like a sign of like, you know, success in a relationship to me is like do I feel as at peace with this person as I do by myself, because like we go from what where is my favorite space in place to be? And it's alone in my apartment with my dog A percent. That's like when I feel good, I feel unbothered, I don't feel like energy is taken away from me. So I think like some times maybe likes a feeling to almost compare it to and if you feel like you're drastically straying from you know that when you're with someone else, like maybe that's not the person because there's so many people can be draining or make you feel like, you know, people talk about butterflies, but I'm like, that's anxiety. Uh, you know, like you can be excited to see someone, but you shouldn't be like getting a stomach ache. And I think you know. A subtle sign too, is like are you keeping secrets from people about the reality of your relationship? Yes? Yes, Yes, that's a good one. And you always know when you say it's one way and you know it's not and you're feeling like ship, this relationship is doomed. Are you lying to everybody around you about how it's going. That's kind of like a subtle sign. That's a good signpost, that's a good one to look out for. It So I feel like it happens a lot and you could kind of yeah where I feel like also like making having having to make excuses on behalf of your partner. I definitely had a situation where I had to like make a lot of excuses on the on behalf of the person and it's because I loved him. But I'm like Jesus Christ, I feel like I'm like a PR crisis manager for you. You're the Olivia Pope to your boyfriend. Yeah, you don't want to do that. Yeah, you're finding yourself like constantly justifying or rationalizing or intellectualizing or trying to you know, especially if you're a person who understands mental health and childhood, just being like, oh, it's because of this, And then it's kind of where does it end? When does it end? Right? Exactly? I honestly there's and I kind of still think this, but I know that I'm wrong, which is good. But it seems like relationships in general are not healthy. Things like romantic relationships are just I for I don't know, I don't know, they just I can't imagine a healthy one because I've never witnessed it. M But do you ahead? I think the opposite of that can be true. Um, relationships, especially when they are healthy, can be the grounds for healing. We actually we heal in healthy relationships. I think there are a lot of healthy relationships that do exist. UM. And it's almost like your body will know what it's in one Yeah, yeah, and they often don't get talked about because they're boring, but you know, like maybe we should. What does a can you paint the picture of a healthy relationship for us? So we have an idea. Yeah, So even in healthy relationships, there's going to be rupture, there's going to be even in healthy relationships, there's going to be times of disconnection. But because of your security within yourself and within that person, those types of disconnections aren't as activating as they might be in an unhealthy relationship. And then when there is rupture in that relationship, there's also repair. So um, abuse, stonewalling, avoidant, things like that aren't ads present because there's communication and there's understanding and then there's healing, there's moving forward. So you're gonna have rupture, but then the repair is going to be what characterizes it is healthy, right, Right, You don't use things against each other. You actually move on and solve, solve the thing. And now a lot of people, I know you mentioned you like to talk about attachment styles. I feel like that's been like a very hot topic. Everyone's reading this like attachment style book. Um, but I mean how like okay, so, like what is there a most common attachment style that you see clients come in with. I think, UM, people tend to come into therapy when they're in a crisis in the relationship because of a lot of anxiety in the relationship. So I think I've tended to witness people with anxious attachment styles come into therapy. So though there's a range of attachment styles that come into therapy, And just to note that, um, your attachment style with your partner may be different than your attachment style with your friends, maybe different at work. So it's not something that's like static, it's something that just kind of changes. Can you change when you have like an established atachment style and a relationship like a like an avoidance and what's the other one that's they go together? That's very toxic, disorganized or avoidant and anxious anxious? So if you've an avoidant and an anxious, is there any way to turn that bus around or is that just the no? There absolutely is. So it goes back to self awareness and educating yourself on your attachment style where it comes from. And then it's also learning to be vulnerable and to trust and to let your guard down and to communicate. It's very uncomfortable but both people have to do the work right right. Yeah? Yeah? How what what are the what are the signposts of being vulnerable romance in a romantic relationship? I mean like what how do you how do you be? I think I think there's also and also especially in the day and age of like oversharing, I think people need to really understand the difference between being vulnerable and then just over sharing, which is also like a lack of boundaries because we get a lot of emails from people and and there you're telling these people way too much. You're giving way too much of yourself, way too early, which is also if the other person has anywhere wherewithal is scary and makes you come off like a little bit psychotic you say psychotic gaming creamy Yeah, yeah, I mean obviously I'm using it. I'm not using it in a professional way. I'm using in like a cold quil way. Um. I think then it goes into what is the purpose of my disclosing this? What is the purpose? Yeah? What's my end game? Right? People? Yeah? People need to know only like a little bit about you as you as you go along, And I mean part of it is like what do they deserve to know? About you, and part of it what it is is, Yeah, what do they need to know about you at that time? Is this something that they need to know in this moment to explain a behavior to take us to the next level. But it's like, if you tell everyone everything about you in the first five dates, it's gonna be a real boring rest of your time. Like we're gonna have to do something crazy then, and then I have to, you know, to get creative story for yourself. Thanks for listening to that clip with our guest this week, A Lista Marie. If you want to hear the entire conversation, which I know you do, head on over to Apple dot c o slash GWF. You can get a Luminary subscription on the Apple Podcasts app

What up, fuckers. It's Christina Hutchinson and Karin Fisher. You are about to listen to a clip from Guys We Fucked, the anti select shaming podcast. On this week's episode, we talked to psychotherapist Alyssa Marie. We talk anxiety and relationships and first dates. We talk attachment styles. We read a crazy New York Post article about a lot of what I would call incestuous sex. But you make the decision for yourself. We answer an interesting email from a fucker. If you want to hear the whole thing, you're gonna head over to uh apple Pie not and oh it's right there. You're gonna head over to apple dot CEO slash GWF where you can subscribe to the luminary channel and here the whole fucking thing. And you're gonna want to do that because what you're missing out on a lot is the answer. So you are a therapist? What what what can you can you interest? Tell us what all you do? Raicky? What what's like the scope of what you do? Okay, So I'm a licensed medical social worker, which means that I am a mental health therapist. I am in private practice. I own a group practice, UM. I also contribute to writings with different magazines, and I talked about anxiety, trauma, UM depression. Within my group practice, there is a raiky healer. So I don't do the raiky, but there is a raiky healer because I do believe that there's just kind of like a holistic way to treat the human body, the human spirit of the mind. So yeah, it feels like Western medicine kind of missed a lot of stuff, like like the the way that the way that a patient is treated. Um. I was. I was listening to this Ted talk and I was like, Wow, that's a really fucking good point. That's therapist. It's the one area of doctors where this specialist doesn't actually look at the organ they're treating, which I thought that was very interesting. I'm like, oh, yeah, no one has ever taking a brain scan of of me to, you know, to before they start therapy. Um and I've seen I saw a psychiatrist ones and that it wasn't even a thing. I've never even heard of that. UM. So I just yeah, it's really interesting to see how Western medicine approaches people is kind of one note. So it seems like you have a more well rounded approach to making somebody feel Yeah. Amen, exactly. So when you're treating when you're treating people for trauma, do you are you someone who like, I don't want to say prescribes, but do you recommend other holistic methods as part of your practice? Personally? I do so. It really it's one of those things where you know, everybody is truly unique and everybody is truly different, so what might work for one person may not work for another person. But overall, yeah, I do recommend other mortalities. I do recommend energy healing for some people. I do recommend therapy. I do recommend medication, UM E M d R. There's just so many things that an E E M d R. I the eye movement, the rabid eye movement. Yeah, I'm also tourist. Could you explain the how that works and why that works? As I'm I'm like, oh, I've I've read about it once and I remember being interested in it, but then I forgot what It's super fascinating and it's even as I'm going to describe it, I think it's still going to be very kind of like hard to understand unless you're actually in it. But the premise is trauma is stored in the body, so the issue is in the tissue, right, So it's like held in ourselves. So you can talk about the things you've been through verbally, rationally, cognitively, but you can still experience the anxiety, the panic, and flashbacks. So that's kind of where the trauma is stored. It's like physically in a So what E M d R does is it is a practice for your eye movements go back and forth, you know, like this, and it's thought to stimulate rem sleep. And so while your eye movements are going back and forth like this, the idea is that you're able to recall things that you've experienced both up here like memories and over here physically in short spurts. So it's like exposures, but in short spurts. Okay, yeah, I can really see how that would be helpful. What do you do you ever, I'm really interested. I have experienced childhood trauma kind of just discovered the concept of childhood trauma um about five years ago, i would say, and it felt like a huge click for me because it's like, oh, all of these things that you were like, is that fucked up? And then you get confirmation that, oh, a child shouldn't actually go through that, Like, that's a really intense your nervous system was overworked, And there's a lot of people on this planet whose nervous systems, as children, were overworked, and these um people being triggered, like psychologically triggered. I feel like it happens a lot um. What are the what are the signs to the uh that point to you being psychologically triggered, because it's like one of the it seems like one of the fastest ways to prevent that from happening is to be aware as it's happening. What are the what are the signs that you tell people to look out for if you if you do well, absolutely so, there's uh this thing. It's like if the situation is like level four, but your response to it is level twenty. Yeah, uh ha, and your response is like level twenty, that's a sign that something else is being activated within you. That's a sign that there's something deeper going on. How do you figure out is there a way to figure out what the deeper thing is so you can nip it in the bud Because it's like the talk therapy, you know, you logically understand something right, and you can go, Okay, yes, that sucked me up. Okay, this was mom did this or dad did this or whatever whatever your experience was. But is there what a pinpoint the moment that keeps being repeated? So in E M d R we do this thing called the floatback technique. So let's say in present day situation, something is happening with you and a friend and your reaction is like level twenty, even though what actually happened was really kind of not that a terrible So in E M d R we would kind of focus on the feeling that it's activating in you. So it's like I felt abandoned, I felt rejected. You know, whatever you're feeling is valid. And then so the technique we do is called floatback technique, So it's like, okay, tap into that feeling and can you remember a time where you felt that way before you remember? And then you kind of just keep floating back. Can you can you go earlier than that? Can you go earlier than that? And then we kind of just see the earliest memory you can go where that same feeling was activated kind of the first time. Okay, so you go to the first time that you remember it, it's easy for me minds all of the past ten years. She's always like, can you go back? I'm like, two, it was two boyfriends, and I haven't. I have Instagram evidence of my trauma. Yeah. Mine all happened when I was a kid. And I feel like, even this morning i walk, I'll get in these modes where they have the temper Oh my god, and I'm even as it's happening, I'm like, why the funk are you this angry? Christina? And then then only of course makes it worse. Um, So it's really hard to ground yourself when you're in the midst of like an anger rage, and then as someone Okay, so as someone I'm around a lot of people and perhaps dating one who people who react it like kind of exactly like you said. I actually had to talk with some of the other day. I'm like, this thing happened. It was like a level two and you reacted like a level So like, how how how do I I find I? I just told him. I was like, I was like, it's really scary. Even though the anger was not directed towards me, it was actually directed at an inanimate object. But like it's I was like, you have to understand that's like very scary for a person to be around. So can I was like, can you please hand or whatever that is? But like, how how can I be there for someone but also create a boundary that makes me feel safe in a situation like that? What do you want to say? Uh, react like a normal human being. But that's rude. So I would never say that. But you know, as somebody who I have, I have this problem as you about like I have it and I and I I don't know, I feel like that would might help if I heard that. I mean, it's like you have to keep in mind we're all comedians, so like sometimes like roasting is is helpful, but like this is like someone who I'm like newly dating and like you know, very good at communication because gen z Um, I'm a millennial. But and then but it's just I just don't and then this is not this is just a something that happened recently, but it happens throughout my life, especially dealing with a lot of artistic people just like very high reaction levels. And I think I have the opposite, which is like I underreact almost everything. I'm kind of like not not fased by very much, which is helpful as somebody who gets triggered a lot me when she underreacts. It calms me down, but can't it's also can't be fun for you though I can't imagine, well, I mean it doesn't. I just like I'm not like faking under reaction. I'm just like it just it takes a lot to really like phase me because I feel like very I feel very safe in me. Um. It's other people that make me feel unsafe all pretty much all the time, not like physically, more like emotionally m hm. So I think it's important to just state what it is that you need. So first you have to identify what it is that you need. Do you need space? Do you need a different tone? Do you need um to reconvene in like twenty minutes? Do you need to go for a walk. So try not to focus it on what the other person needs to do, because that's why people can get really defensive totally, But just focus on what it is that you need. What what can you control within yourself? So like, I love the idea of stepping away, and I'm a big step away person because usually if I go walk away for ten twenty minutes, I can come back. I'm pretty much never so mad unless it's like I mean, I can't even really think of any times. But in my experience, people take like people feel like that's like abandonment, and I go, well, I mean, it's not because I'm I'm walking away so that I don't I don't also meet your energy that is at an irrational level right now, know, because for me that that's just like step away and be with the person I feel safe with, which is mem you know. And so that's a lot and that's logical. But people get so upset when you do that. Abandonment issues get like it's easy to put salt in that wound. Man, I wish it wasn't. I wish everyone would have abandoned me. It's just, especially if you're a loving and caring person, you want to at the same time fix that and be like, I'm not abandon you, and then rescue that and then heal that and then just pure. However, the boundary is that's not your work, right there. What's your job as a friend, as a coworker, as a whatever the relationship is, it's your job. Every it's fair to ask to tell to expect somebody to be able to handle themselves. You would think people get real picked And I can't imagine that. I haven't been there. I had to have been there before because I have abandonment stuff too, and that it makes you nasty. Abandonment issues make you a nasty like a desperation comes up like yeah, and it's gross like yeah. And then when you're self aware on top of that, you're like, oh, I know how gross I'm being you. I hate and you just want to fix it. It's a whole mess. You want to get rid of it. You want it to just yeah, you don't want to feel it? Yeah? Have you heard of hell or work? No? What is that? Oh? Man, Okay, so it's UM. I think it was. Joseph Heller is the name of the practitioner who came up with it. It's basically, UM body work. You you go on a massage table. It's body work, UM, and it's getting the stored trauma out of your actual body instead of doing talk therapy. It combines very minor talk therapy. UM. But it like I the very first session I had, I had read about it in this book UM, and so I just kind of googled it and was like, oh, perfect, there's a woman who does it on my block or a couple of blocks over. I went to her, and I've been seeing her for like six months now. She will touch my stomach and I'll just start crying, as if you know when you see a kid crying, it's drawing and you're like, oh my god, that child is going through such a turmoil. It's like that, like instantly. But the crazy thing is, as I'm crying, I'm not actually sad. It's just like it truly feels like an exorcism, and she's like manipulating like my stomach muscles and it's wild. That's it. I'm gonna have to look this up. It's you know, it really in line with her. The practitioner and I had a big conversation before the first session about The Body Keeps the Score, which was revolutionary book. When I read it, I was so happy to have found that because I feel like it gave me a lot of answers to two personal problems. Helps you understand why your reactions are the way that they are. Yeah, how how do you recommend UM? E? D M R. Certainly UM something you can do UM to be less reactive? What are like some basic things that anybody can do to be less reactive? So there are a few things. The first is self awareness, right, so you have to just be aware that your reactions can be intense, and you have to also acknowledge that it can be problematic if you don't think it's a problem, and then you're never gonna want to fix it. So the first step is self awareness, and then to be less reactive, UM, there's just regular coping strategies like breathing exercises, learning what you need for your nervous system to calm down, so that can be going for a walk, listening to music, taking a break, things like that. UM On just like a cognitive thinking level, you want to recognize what your thought patterns are and the stories that you're telling yourself about a situation. Typically when we get reactive, UM, these negative thought schemas come up. So these are like patterns and are thinking like everybody hates me, um, everybody is against me, nobody understands me. You want to be very aware of the stories you're telling yourself and then just take the time to unpack where those stories come from and then just It's also a lot of retraining your mind to think in a different way, whether it's neutral, positive, whatever, perspective taking, but just kind of unraveling those negative schemas. Yeah, do you often find that it's not the negative voices in people's heads that kind of called you know, I often feel like when I the anger gets activated, I'm at a fork in the road. I can go left, which is, let's get even more piste and do some damage, or I can go right, where it usually involves a nap or like meditating right away something something that's like drastically calming. Uh. And but I eventually always realized that that voice isn't mine. It belonged to mom or dad or like you know, oh that ship that because it's like I learned to be that mean to myself somehow. Um And I'm like, yeah, yeah, So I always find that that's very helpful to identify who's the first person that said this to me that I'm now regurgitating it to myself. Yep, yep. And another thing that I like to ask clients is like, whose voice does this sound? Like? Who does it remind you of? Yeah, because it kind of, you know, it kind of has to be somebody else's voice, right like people. Children, when you're born, you're so malleable obviously, and um, children out of all species of living creatures have the longest childhood there with their parents for so long. A ten years is the longest time when you think of other animals and how they operate. Um, and then it kind of makes sense why we're all fucking raging maniacs a little bit. Um, But uh yeah, I feel like you you have to learn to be that cruel to yourself. It has to be taught to you, just like just like you know, shitty behaviors and shitty attitudes are always either taught to you by example or you know, drilled into you as a result of being mistreated. Absolutely, our childhood lays the blueprint for how we experience ourselves and the people around us. Um. Everything that we do is learned, whether from society or within our immediate family. It's all learned to learn behavior. So yes, Um, how do you recognize codependency in a relationship? So, the simplest way I think to define codependency is, like you, you feel this need to fix, rescue, or save the other person at the expense of your own mental health. Right, So it's like loyalty at the expense of your mental health might be codependency, and it's this like, uh, difficulty to identify where one person ends and you begin. So you kind of just feel like you're just like in this yeah, like together, um, and a core symptom of it is it's at the expense of your mental health. How do you know when your mental health is being coned? I feel like some people don't understand that your mental health is being their mental health is being compromised, because that's just the way they've lived their whole entire life. Like you don't understand that you're in fight or flight until the very first time you actually calmed down and realize that's what you're supposed to be like all the time. M hmm, how do you Okay? So the question is like, how do you recognize you're in a codependent situation? Am I trying to fix this person? Am I trying to save this person? Am I trying to rescue this person? And am I having these constant thoughts like we'll be happy when right this hump. We just have to get past the decision and we have to get past this thing. Yeah, they said, we'll be happy when they still grew up. We'll be happy when they stop hurting me. It's just kind of like you're just waiting for this person to change um constantly and then you're putting in Also, I think more work than they are. You're looking you're you're doing all the like work for them to change. You're you're you're more of a like a caretaker than you are a partner. So a woman in a stranger all right, Well, I think like what I look for, like what I look for, and I'm like, I'm like pretty anti relationship, but I am in a relationship right now and it's going well, you know, knock on whatever this is. And so I mean what I look for as like a sign of like, you know, success in a relationship to me is like do I feel as at peace with this person as I do by myself, because like we go from what where is my favorite space in place to be? And it's alone in my apartment with my dog A percent. That's like when I feel good, I feel unbothered, I don't feel like energy is taken away from me. So I think like some times maybe likes a feeling to almost compare it to and if you feel like you're drastically straying from you know that when you're with someone else, like maybe that's not the person because there's so many people can be draining or make you feel like, you know, people talk about butterflies, but I'm like, that's anxiety. Uh, you know, like you can be excited to see someone, but you shouldn't be like getting a stomach ache. And I think you know. A subtle sign too, is like are you keeping secrets from people about the reality of your relationship? Yes? Yes, Yes, that's a good one. And you always know when you say it's one way and you know it's not and you're feeling like ship, this relationship is doomed. Are you lying to everybody around you about how it's going. That's kind of like a subtle sign. That's a good signpost, that's a good one to look out for. It So I feel like it happens a lot and you could kind of yeah where I feel like also like making having having to make excuses on behalf of your partner. I definitely had a situation where I had to like make a lot of excuses on the on behalf of the person and it's because I loved him. But I'm like Jesus Christ, I feel like I'm like a PR crisis manager for you. You're the Olivia Pope to your boyfriend. Yeah, you don't want to do that. Yeah, you're finding yourself like constantly justifying or rationalizing or intellectualizing or trying to you know, especially if you're a person who understands mental health and childhood, just being like, oh, it's because of this, And then it's kind of where does it end? When does it end? Right? Exactly? I honestly there's and I kind of still think this, but I know that I'm wrong, which is good. But it seems like relationships in general are not healthy. Things like romantic relationships are just I for I don't know, I don't know, they just I can't imagine a healthy one because I've never witnessed it. M But do you ahead? I think the opposite of that can be true. Um, relationships, especially when they are healthy, can be the grounds for healing. We actually we heal in healthy relationships. I think there are a lot of healthy relationships that do exist. UM. And it's almost like your body will know what it's in one Yeah, yeah, and they often don't get talked about because they're boring, but you know, like maybe we should. What does a can you paint the picture of a healthy relationship for us? So we have an idea. Yeah, So even in healthy relationships, there's going to be rupture, there's going to be even in healthy relationships, there's going to be times of disconnection. But because of your security within yourself and within that person, those types of disconnections aren't as activating as they might be in an unhealthy relationship. And then when there is rupture in that relationship, there's also repair. So um, abuse, stonewalling, avoidant, things like that aren't ads present because there's communication and there's understanding and then there's healing, there's moving forward. So you're gonna have rupture, but then the repair is going to be what characterizes it is healthy, right, Right, You don't use things against each other. You actually move on and solve, solve the thing. And now a lot of people, I know you mentioned you like to talk about attachment styles. I feel like that's been like a very hot topic. Everyone's reading this like attachment style book. Um, but I mean how like okay, so, like what is there a most common attachment style that you see clients come in with. I think, UM, people tend to come into therapy when they're in a crisis in the relationship because of a lot of anxiety in the relationship. So I think I've tended to witness people with anxious attachment styles come into therapy. So though there's a range of attachment styles that come into therapy, And just to note that, um, your attachment style with your partner may be different than your attachment style with your friends, maybe different at work. So it's not something that's like static, it's something that just kind of changes. Can you change when you have like an established atachment style and a relationship like a like an avoidance and what's the other one that's they go together? That's very toxic, disorganized or avoidant and anxious anxious? So if you've an avoidant and an anxious, is there any way to turn that bus around or is that just the no? There absolutely is. So it goes back to self awareness and educating yourself on your attachment style where it comes from. And then it's also learning to be vulnerable and to trust and to let your guard down and to communicate. It's very uncomfortable but both people have to do the work right right. Yeah? Yeah? How what what are the what are the signposts of being vulnerable romance in a romantic relationship? I mean like what how do you how do you be? I think I think there's also and also especially in the day and age of like oversharing, I think people need to really understand the difference between being vulnerable and then just over sharing, which is also like a lack of boundaries because we get a lot of emails from people and and there you're telling these people way too much. You're giving way too much of yourself, way too early, which is also if the other person has anywhere wherewithal is scary and makes you come off like a little bit psychotic you say psychotic gaming creamy Yeah, yeah, I mean obviously I'm using it. I'm not using it in a professional way. I'm using in like a cold quil way. Um. I think then it goes into what is the purpose of my disclosing this? What is the purpose? Yeah? What's my end game? Right? People? Yeah? People need to know only like a little bit about you as you as you go along, And I mean part of it is like what do they deserve to know? About you, and part of it what it is is, Yeah, what do they need to know about you at that time? Is this something that they need to know in this moment to explain a behavior to take us to the next level. But it's like, if you tell everyone everything about you in the first five dates, it's gonna be a real boring rest of your time. Like we're gonna have to do something crazy then, and then I have to, you know, to get creative story for yourself. Thanks for listening to that clip with our guest this week, A Lista Marie. If you want to hear the entire conversation, which I know you do, head on over to Apple dot c o slash GWF. You can get a Luminary subscription on the Apple Podcasts app