I am Conrad Marshall, and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to season five of Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with Sydney chef Neil Perry, and we're asking a specific question can one restaurateur single handedly lift a suburb from the doldrums? Perry now has three double bay eateries Margaret Next Door and the Melbourne import Baker Blue. And with two more scheduled to open in August, he seems to be trying his darndest. And hosting this episode about the Perry family business is experience in the food scene over many decades, and what it takes to renew an entire suburb. Is the author of our feature story on Perry's new ventures, Doubling Down and that's none other than Sydney editor for the Sydney Morning Herald, Michael.

I am Conrad Marshall, and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to season five of Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with Sydney chef Neil Perry, and we're asking a specific question can one restaurateur single handedly lift a suburb from the doldrums? Perry now has three double bay eateries Margaret Next Door and the Melbourne import Baker Blue. And with two more scheduled to open in August, he seems to be trying his darndest. And hosting this episode about the Perry family business is experience in the food scene over many decades, and what it takes to renew an entire suburb. Is the author of our feature story on Perry's new ventures, Doubling Down and that's none other than Sydney editor for the Sydney Morning Herald, Michael.

Thanks, Conrad, and welcome to Neil Perry. Welcome to the program.

Thanks, Conrad, and welcome to Neil Perry. Welcome to the program.

Great to be here, Michael.

Great to be here, Michael.

He was comfortable in the recording studios. You are on the grill.

He was comfortable in the recording studios. You are on the grill.

Yeah, I've been around a few recording studios and film cameras.

Yeah, I've been around a few recording studios and film cameras.

We all know you're a highly accomplished chef, and we know you've opened some of Australia's iconic restaurants. And we know you're incredibly passionate about Australian produce. Some are now calling you the unofficial mayor of double Bay to add to your accolades. Does it feel that way?

We all know you're a highly accomplished chef, and we know you've opened some of Australia's iconic restaurants. And we know you're incredibly passionate about Australian produce. Some are now calling you the unofficial mayor of double Bay to add to your accolades. Does it feel that way?

Uh, it's been great to be a major part of the revival down there. Um, you know, it was a great suburb when I was a lot younger. It kind of fell in disrepair after the particularly after the cinema closed, and a few of the classic restaurants that are closed down. And they all want some great Chinese restaurants, Imperial Peking and and, uh, Cleveland and they closed. And so it feels good to be part of a revival of Bay Street. And that whole kind of what I like to think of is the as the real village of double Bay.

Uh, it's been great to be a major part of the revival down there. Um, you know, it was a great suburb when I was a lot younger. It kind of fell in disrepair after the particularly after the cinema closed, and a few of the classic restaurants that are closed down. And they all want some great Chinese restaurants, Imperial Peking and and, uh, Cleveland and they closed. And so it feels good to be part of a revival of Bay Street. And that whole kind of what I like to think of is the as the real village of double Bay.

Your restaurant, Margaret. It's right in the middle of town. It's one, uh, a stack of awards, including the Good Food Guide Restaurant of the year. This year, it was a Covid baby. Really? Uh, what made you decide that you wanted to open a seafood restaurant in that crazy time?

Your restaurant, Margaret. It's right in the middle of town. It's one, uh, a stack of awards, including the Good Food Guide Restaurant of the year. This year, it was a Covid baby. Really? Uh, what made you decide that you wanted to open a seafood restaurant in that crazy time?

Uh, well, you know, you can never kind of pick your moment, so, you know, we we we we all thought we were coming out of Covid after that first lockdown in 2020. Um, and I sort of committed around July 2020 to double Bay.

Uh, well, you know, you can never kind of pick your moment, so, you know, we we we we all thought we were coming out of Covid after that first lockdown in 2020. Um, and I sort of committed around July 2020 to double Bay.

This site in double Bay will become his newest restaurant by mid-year, offering world class neighbourhood dining with Covid inspiring the restaurateur to select the suburbs over the city for the first time since 1986.

This site in double Bay will become his newest restaurant by mid-year, offering world class neighbourhood dining with Covid inspiring the restaurateur to select the suburbs over the city for the first time since 1986.

You know it's close to home. It was a great a great suburb. I felt like I wanted to really leave the city. I'd had that whole CBD life had been, you know, the major part of my life. And I really wanted to kind of come to a place where in, in essence, I, I, you know, was part of a community, a smaller community. And, and we're five minutes from the city, um, we're five minutes away from where I live at Vaucluse. We're really 3 or 4 minutes from the harbour. It it really is a very special place in terms of where it sits demographically. And for me, I just sort of figured, you know, it was really worth worth diving in and, you know, trying to create what I, what I was really calling a neighborhood dining space at that stage. And, and Covid kind of in a way created the opportunity. And then of course, it, it caused a, caused our, the strength of our resolve because the day that we were supposed to open, uh, in June 2021, um, we fell into the next big lockdown.

You know it's close to home. It was a great a great suburb. I felt like I wanted to really leave the city. I'd had that whole CBD life had been, you know, the major part of my life. And I really wanted to kind of come to a place where in, in essence, I, I, you know, was part of a community, a smaller community. And, and we're five minutes from the city, um, we're five minutes away from where I live at Vaucluse. We're really 3 or 4 minutes from the harbour. It it really is a very special place in terms of where it sits demographically. And for me, I just sort of figured, you know, it was really worth worth diving in and, you know, trying to create what I, what I was really calling a neighborhood dining space at that stage. And, and Covid kind of in a way created the opportunity. And then of course, it, it caused a, caused our, the strength of our resolve because the day that we were supposed to open, uh, in June 2021, um, we fell into the next big lockdown.

Good evening. As we go to air tonight, Greater Sydney is in lockdown. More than 5 million residents have been ordered to stay home for two weeks.

Good evening. As we go to air tonight, Greater Sydney is in lockdown. More than 5 million residents have been ordered to stay home for two weeks.

That's which, of course, was a lot harder on people in New South Wales. I know the guys in Victoria spent a lot of time in lockdown. They spent two years not knowing what was going to happen to them, but I think we kind of got on with life in in New South Wales and then all of a sudden we found ourselves in this situation where when the state government stepped in and closed us down and, and we really felt like maybe there's no end to this.

That's which, of course, was a lot harder on people in New South Wales. I know the guys in Victoria spent a lot of time in lockdown. They spent two years not knowing what was going to happen to them, but I think we kind of got on with life in in New South Wales and then all of a sudden we found ourselves in this situation where when the state government stepped in and closed us down and, and we really felt like maybe there's no end to this.

Everybody, um, it was fairly obvious the way the numbers were going in the last few days, that it would have not been possible for us to come out of lockdown, uh, tomorrow or Friday.

Everybody, um, it was fairly obvious the way the numbers were going in the last few days, that it would have not been possible for us to come out of lockdown, uh, tomorrow or Friday.

And I can remember 2 or 3 weeks in going, like, you know, when it when is this all going to stop? And of course, it didn't stop for about four and a half months.

And I can remember 2 or 3 weeks in going, like, you know, when it when is this all going to stop? And of course, it didn't stop for about four and a half months.

This was, of course, June 2021 when and I think it was almost literally the day. It was the day that we had the Delta, uh, outbound started. Yeah, yeah. And it started in the eastern suburbs of Sydney. It really started.

This was, of course, June 2021 when and I think it was almost literally the day. It was the day that we had the Delta, uh, outbound started. Yeah, yeah. And it started in the eastern suburbs of Sydney. It really started.

In double Bay, actually. So it started in Vaucluse where the where the where the a van driver or the or the limo driver was passing on on the virus.

In double Bay, actually. So it started in Vaucluse where the where the where the a van driver or the or the limo driver was passing on on the virus.

Covid is spreading in Sydney. A woman in her 70s has the virus after she visited a Vaucluse cafe. At the same time, an infected limousine driver was there, it's confirmed, and that.

Covid is spreading in Sydney. A woman in her 70s has the virus after she visited a Vaucluse cafe. At the same time, an infected limousine driver was there, it's confirmed, and that.

Went really heavily, uh, big in double Bay. Joe Bailey, of course, was quite famous for spreading a few around and Michael the sandwich shop across the road. And so it kind of came around us, and then all of a sudden it was like, okay, the LGA in the east is closing down because we'd already been through one of those targeted LGA closes with the northern beaches at Christmas. And we kind of thought, oh, you know, this will be a week or two weeks. And the very next day on the Saturday, of course, the whole state went into lockdown and I felt, you know, all very depressed and thought, oh, I've done everything so perfectly. And then all of a sudden all my best made plans were going to hell and back.

Went really heavily, uh, big in double Bay. Joe Bailey, of course, was quite famous for spreading a few around and Michael the sandwich shop across the road. And so it kind of came around us, and then all of a sudden it was like, okay, the LGA in the east is closing down because we'd already been through one of those targeted LGA closes with the northern beaches at Christmas. And we kind of thought, oh, you know, this will be a week or two weeks. And the very next day on the Saturday, of course, the whole state went into lockdown and I felt, you know, all very depressed and thought, oh, I've done everything so perfectly. And then all of a sudden all my best made plans were going to hell and back.

So did you think I mean, it? Was there anything in you at that time where you thought, oh my God, like, this is it? The whole thing's finished?

So did you think I mean, it? Was there anything in you at that time where you thought, oh my God, like, this is it? The whole thing's finished?

Oh, look, I just didn't know what was going to happen next because it got to the point. Two weeks in, everyone knew it was going to be around for a long time. And, uh, and then, of course, you know, so the vaccination vaccine rates started to, to become, uh, you know, the, I guess the point at which we could feel release. And there was a lot of that going on, a lot of push towards the double vaccine and the 90% and, and so forth. And, and I got heavily involved in sort of discussing, you know, the vaccine scenario.

Oh, look, I just didn't know what was going to happen next because it got to the point. Two weeks in, everyone knew it was going to be around for a long time. And, uh, and then, of course, you know, so the vaccination vaccine rates started to, to become, uh, you know, the, I guess the point at which we could feel release. And there was a lot of that going on, a lot of push towards the double vaccine and the 90% and, and so forth. And, and I got heavily involved in sort of discussing, you know, the vaccine scenario.

We're told the only way out of this mess is mass vaccination. And Neil Perry agrees after months of misery and heartache, he's taking a stand and ordering his staff to get the jab.

We're told the only way out of this mess is mass vaccination. And Neil Perry agrees after months of misery and heartache, he's taking a stand and ordering his staff to get the jab.

But if you want to travel, if you want to see your friends, if you want to see your family, and if you want to work in customer facing roles, you're going to have to get vaccinated.

But if you want to travel, if you want to see your friends, if you want to see your family, and if you want to work in customer facing roles, you're going to have to get vaccinated.

Do you believe in mandatory vaccination?

Do you believe in mandatory vaccination?

Yeah, totally believe in it. Um, you know, and we've got lots of haters on Instagram and so forth. But for me, it was just about the government legislating or making health orders to the point of, you know, if you weren't vaccinated, you couldn't go to restaurants. I'm concerned about the community and unvaccinated people ending up in hospital. I you know, it's not about whether I'm trying to segregate people. It's a matter of getting out of this so that we're back in the Australia that we love and we're all doing things together.

Yeah, totally believe in it. Um, you know, and we've got lots of haters on Instagram and so forth. But for me, it was just about the government legislating or making health orders to the point of, you know, if you weren't vaccinated, you couldn't go to restaurants. I'm concerned about the community and unvaccinated people ending up in hospital. I you know, it's not about whether I'm trying to segregate people. It's a matter of getting out of this so that we're back in the Australia that we love and we're all doing things together.

Okay. So you expressed these concerns.

Okay. So you expressed these concerns.

For me, it was really like, when is this going to finish? And there was a point, you know, probably July, August where, you know, I just kind of thought it might be next year. I thought it might be into January. February, you know, who knows how long, uh, it would be. And we were only just surviving, you know, we're just keeping the wheels going around by Covid or and doing burgers at lunchtime and, you know, kind of doing everything we possibly could just to pivot and keep the staff together.

For me, it was really like, when is this going to finish? And there was a point, you know, probably July, August where, you know, I just kind of thought it might be next year. I thought it might be into January. February, you know, who knows how long, uh, it would be. And we were only just surviving, you know, we're just keeping the wheels going around by Covid or and doing burgers at lunchtime and, you know, kind of doing everything we possibly could just to pivot and keep the staff together.

But to sort of put the Covid discussion to one side. But what did last from that period was this kind of migration a little bit from the CBD towards the suburbs, and that sort of has lost a little bit, not just in Sydney and Melbourne. There's, you know, been a lot of talk about the, um, resurgence of Saint Kilda, for example. But you've kind of embodied that quite literally in your, your shift. Yeah.

But to sort of put the Covid discussion to one side. But what did last from that period was this kind of migration a little bit from the CBD towards the suburbs, and that sort of has lost a little bit, not just in Sydney and Melbourne. There's, you know, been a lot of talk about the, um, resurgence of Saint Kilda, for example. But you've kind of embodied that quite literally in your, your shift. Yeah.

Well, you know, like so sometimes things happen, you know, you've got to have an ounce of luck, at least an ounce of luck, you know, in your life. And I think at that time, people finding a real sense of community within their suburbs because of Covid, you know, you were kind of trapped within five kilometres and people felt coming out of Covid, I think still very attached to that experience of, of of hanging out with their people and, and trusting their people and their family. And but the ability to socialise was really exciting as well. So, so there was this, as you say, there was a there was a kind of abandonment of the city. Um, workers were still working from home, even though they were kind of released from their homes and were allowed to go and travel and do things and, and, uh, and it did really change the dynamic. And it was an interesting but it was seriously like the second time around was even bigger than the first time around. It was like everybody had taken ecstasy and were just in love with the fact that they could go out dining. It's like, oh my God, you're open. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, we'll never complain again. We were never bitch and moan. Of course, you know, that all wears off.

Well, you know, like so sometimes things happen, you know, you've got to have an ounce of luck, at least an ounce of luck, you know, in your life. And I think at that time, people finding a real sense of community within their suburbs because of Covid, you know, you were kind of trapped within five kilometres and people felt coming out of Covid, I think still very attached to that experience of, of of hanging out with their people and, and trusting their people and their family. And but the ability to socialise was really exciting as well. So, so there was this, as you say, there was a there was a kind of abandonment of the city. Um, workers were still working from home, even though they were kind of released from their homes and were allowed to go and travel and do things and, and, uh, and it did really change the dynamic. And it was an interesting but it was seriously like the second time around was even bigger than the first time around. It was like everybody had taken ecstasy and were just in love with the fact that they could go out dining. It's like, oh my God, you're open. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, we'll never complain again. We were never bitch and moan. Of course, you know, that all wears off.

And I can imagine it did change the way, um, a lot of us live and. Yeah. And your life and your professional life looks a lot different now than it was in 20 1617. It was 2016 that a lot of people would know. You sold your restaurants, including Rockpool and Spice Temple, uh, to a consortium that was owned by private equity firm quadrant. Um, you stayed involved as the. Yeah, director. That was a big experiment. What was the genesis of that? Dale?

And I can imagine it did change the way, um, a lot of us live and. Yeah. And your life and your professional life looks a lot different now than it was in 20 1617. It was 2016 that a lot of people would know. You sold your restaurants, including Rockpool and Spice Temple, uh, to a consortium that was owned by private equity firm quadrant. Um, you stayed involved as the. Yeah, director. That was a big experiment. What was the genesis of that? Dale?

Well, I think, you know, it was just a, like Chris and Jonathan piece from from quadrant were putting together a restaurant group, and I think they felt that premiums could be part of that. So it was a it was a good opportunity for me. Um, I'd had I had problems with a partner that I had that I needed to to exit with. So it was easier to exit the whole group. Um, but, you know, for me, what Covid brought around was I used to every week I was on an airplane. I was a platinum one frequent flyer. I was staying in crown beds more often than I was staying in my own bed at home. And Covid was an amazing release from that. And then, in essence, it really helped me understand that I'd kind of spent 47 years of my life, um, traveling and working and having this dream of building an empire and doing all these things. But what I really love doing and what I do in double Bay is, is I spend every day with my customers and with my staff. I get to start things and finish them. I get to see people on a regular basis. I get to work with my staff every day. Um, there's more humanity in that, I think. And it is truly a family restaurant. So, you know, my wife works there, my three daughters work there. Lots of the staff that work there have worked there for not just there, but for me for many, many years. And they are part of my extended family. So. So for me, being in double Bay is bizarre as it sounds when you put in the hours that I do every week. But but I kind of think of it as semi-retirement. Honestly. I can just imagine pottering around there when I'm 80. Uh, hopefully I won't have to stand at the stoves for quite as long, but but for me, the joy is getting out of bed every morning and heading down, seeing people at the bakery, going to next door, heading to Margaret, working, having family meal with my my staff and working the evening. It's a it's a really great joy.

Well, I think, you know, it was just a, like Chris and Jonathan piece from from quadrant were putting together a restaurant group, and I think they felt that premiums could be part of that. So it was a it was a good opportunity for me. Um, I'd had I had problems with a partner that I had that I needed to to exit with. So it was easier to exit the whole group. Um, but, you know, for me, what Covid brought around was I used to every week I was on an airplane. I was a platinum one frequent flyer. I was staying in crown beds more often than I was staying in my own bed at home. And Covid was an amazing release from that. And then, in essence, it really helped me understand that I'd kind of spent 47 years of my life, um, traveling and working and having this dream of building an empire and doing all these things. But what I really love doing and what I do in double Bay is, is I spend every day with my customers and with my staff. I get to start things and finish them. I get to see people on a regular basis. I get to work with my staff every day. Um, there's more humanity in that, I think. And it is truly a family restaurant. So, you know, my wife works there, my three daughters work there. Lots of the staff that work there have worked there for not just there, but for me for many, many years. And they are part of my extended family. So. So for me, being in double Bay is bizarre as it sounds when you put in the hours that I do every week. But but I kind of think of it as semi-retirement. Honestly. I can just imagine pottering around there when I'm 80. Uh, hopefully I won't have to stand at the stoves for quite as long, but but for me, the joy is getting out of bed every morning and heading down, seeing people at the bakery, going to next door, heading to Margaret, working, having family meal with my my staff and working the evening. It's a it's a really great joy.

Your world has really shrunk because big time. Well you have when you were at you sort of most extended um, you had obviously Rockpool in Perth. Yeah.

Your world has really shrunk because big time. Well you have when you were at you sort of most extended um, you had obviously Rockpool in Perth. Yeah.

Perth, Melbourne, Sydney. And I was on the road all the time. And you know, if you take my Qantas commitments as well, uh, I was on an international flight, you know, 12 times a year and on a domestic flight probably, you know, at least once, maybe twice a.

Perth, Melbourne, Sydney. And I was on the road all the time. And you know, if you take my Qantas commitments as well, uh, I was on an international flight, you know, 12 times a year and on a domestic flight probably, you know, at least once, maybe twice a.

Week, selling those to those iconic restaurants to private equity. You spoke about how it was a deal in the end, you probably shouldn't have done working for other people. Why not?

Week, selling those to those iconic restaurants to private equity. You spoke about how it was a deal in the end, you probably shouldn't have done working for other people. Why not?

Wasn't a deal. I shouldn't have done it. It's just I wasn't probably very good at working for other people. And I think, you know, what was was good is that we were able to, you know, kind of go our separate ways. And I was able to come out and do Margaret and you know what, all the other stuff that I'm doing in double Bay and the guys have been able to take the restaurants in the direction that they wanted to take it. In the end, you know, again, Covid kind of brought that to a head in the sense that it got me involved in, uh, Hope delivery, the charity that we were working strongly with that then became Hope hospitality. You know, we actually served over three and a half year period, 800,000 meals. So it was an extraordinary kind of endeavour. I got very involved in that while we were in lockdown. And I guess my headspace kind of changed. You know, I enjoyed staying in Sydney, I enjoyed being with my family and I think the reality of it was, you know, it was better to let the guys go in the direction that they wanted to go in, um, and have control over it and not, not, uh, not be in a situation where I was kind of putting up a different view of how it would have gone. And I think that's it's worked out, you know, the best for everybody.

Wasn't a deal. I shouldn't have done it. It's just I wasn't probably very good at working for other people. And I think, you know, what was was good is that we were able to, you know, kind of go our separate ways. And I was able to come out and do Margaret and you know what, all the other stuff that I'm doing in double Bay and the guys have been able to take the restaurants in the direction that they wanted to take it. In the end, you know, again, Covid kind of brought that to a head in the sense that it got me involved in, uh, Hope delivery, the charity that we were working strongly with that then became Hope hospitality. You know, we actually served over three and a half year period, 800,000 meals. So it was an extraordinary kind of endeavour. I got very involved in that while we were in lockdown. And I guess my headspace kind of changed. You know, I enjoyed staying in Sydney, I enjoyed being with my family and I think the reality of it was, you know, it was better to let the guys go in the direction that they wanted to go in, um, and have control over it and not, not, uh, not be in a situation where I was kind of putting up a different view of how it would have gone. And I think that's it's worked out, you know, the best for everybody.

Some of these restaurants, you know, Rockpool. It was 1989. Yeah. Yeah. When you open the doors, I mean, there are iconic restaurants, iconic brands. Really. Yeah. How hard was it personally to to walk away from those. Yeah.

Some of these restaurants, you know, Rockpool. It was 1989. Yeah. Yeah. When you open the doors, I mean, there are iconic restaurants, iconic brands. Really. Yeah. How hard was it personally to to walk away from those. Yeah.

Look really hard I mean and and but I kind of thought to myself, you know, I had I have kind of phases of my life and, and at the moment I feel really content where I am, and I'm very focused on where I am, and I try not to spend a lot of time, I guess, getting, you know, bogged down in regret. So I don't regret selling the restaurants. It solves a problem at the time. And and also, you know, the restaurants have been able to grow and do other things, uh, on their own. I've kind of, you know, really still incredibly proud of all the people that worked there. As a matter of fact, last night I was eating at Rockpool. Um, two weeks ago, I was eating at Spice Temple. I love the food that Andy does. I love the food that Santi does. So. So, you know, if I want to, I want a steak. And it's Tuesday night and that's where I go, right? Because Margaret's.

Look really hard I mean and and but I kind of thought to myself, you know, I had I have kind of phases of my life and, and at the moment I feel really content where I am, and I'm very focused on where I am, and I try not to spend a lot of time, I guess, getting, you know, bogged down in regret. So I don't regret selling the restaurants. It solves a problem at the time. And and also, you know, the restaurants have been able to grow and do other things, uh, on their own. I've kind of, you know, really still incredibly proud of all the people that worked there. As a matter of fact, last night I was eating at Rockpool. Um, two weeks ago, I was eating at Spice Temple. I love the food that Andy does. I love the food that Santi does. So. So, you know, if I want to, I want a steak. And it's Tuesday night and that's where I go, right? Because Margaret's.

Closed. But come on, be honest and they'll tell us, you know, it's there's no one else listening. But have they held up to the lofty standards that you set back in the day or. You know.

Closed. But come on, be honest and they'll tell us, you know, it's there's no one else listening. But have they held up to the lofty standards that you set back in the day or. You know.

Yeah. No, we had a delicious meal and I wouldn't keep going back to to spice unless Andy was cooking great foods. So, you know, those restaurants are two of the restaurants I've probably visited the most, actually out of out of my own, um, because it's still in the style of how I love to cook. And, you know, I'm a bit of a creature of habit, so, so, you know, that's the kind of Chinese food that I love. And, and and, you know, I love to have a great steak or a great piece of fish. I love to know how well it's been sourced. And I can always trust that it's been sourced brilliantly. There.

Yeah. No, we had a delicious meal and I wouldn't keep going back to to spice unless Andy was cooking great foods. So, you know, those restaurants are two of the restaurants I've probably visited the most, actually out of out of my own, um, because it's still in the style of how I love to cook. And, you know, I'm a bit of a creature of habit, so, so, you know, that's the kind of Chinese food that I love. And, and and, you know, I love to have a great steak or a great piece of fish. I love to know how well it's been sourced. And I can always trust that it's been sourced brilliantly. There.

You mentioned. Regrets. Are you one of those cars that sort of dwells on things that have gone wrong? Do you have big regrets from your career?

You mentioned. Regrets. Are you one of those cars that sort of dwells on things that have gone wrong? Do you have big regrets from your career?

No, no, not at all. I don't, I would say, and that's not the right way to put it. I don't dwell on mistakes. I actually focus on them. So in my career, if I have made a mistake and I feel like it's not been the right decision, then I try to pick it apart and figure out what I could have done better, or why I should not have been involved in it at all. And I try to add that to my bank of like, this is what to do. This is not what to do. So. So, you know, failure is not about regret. Failure is about learning. Um, and so I learnt I've learnt a lot, um, from the sale of the business. I've learned a lot about myself from COVID's, taught me a lot about things and my personal life. And importantly, I've ended up organically in a space in my life at, you know, 66, 67, in June, where I am so happy in my professional life, where I'm sitting with these great restaurants and I'm so happy with the, the, you know, the chart of time, of my life and what I've created in my life. You know, the original Rockpool, which was in the top 50 in the world, 50 best, um, Rockpool Bar and Grill. I think it's still one of the great steak houses in the world. Spice temple, beautiful modern, uh, Asian restaurant, modern Chinese restaurant. You know, I've got things that I've created that I. That I'm. I'm really proud of.

No, no, not at all. I don't, I would say, and that's not the right way to put it. I don't dwell on mistakes. I actually focus on them. So in my career, if I have made a mistake and I feel like it's not been the right decision, then I try to pick it apart and figure out what I could have done better, or why I should not have been involved in it at all. And I try to add that to my bank of like, this is what to do. This is not what to do. So. So, you know, failure is not about regret. Failure is about learning. Um, and so I learnt I've learnt a lot, um, from the sale of the business. I've learned a lot about myself from COVID's, taught me a lot about things and my personal life. And importantly, I've ended up organically in a space in my life at, you know, 66, 67, in June, where I am so happy in my professional life, where I'm sitting with these great restaurants and I'm so happy with the, the, you know, the chart of time, of my life and what I've created in my life. You know, the original Rockpool, which was in the top 50 in the world, 50 best, um, Rockpool Bar and Grill. I think it's still one of the great steak houses in the world. Spice temple, beautiful modern, uh, Asian restaurant, modern Chinese restaurant. You know, I've got things that I've created that I. That I'm. I'm really proud of.

You talked a good weekend about your luck with opening restaurants. Of course, you opened Rockpool pretty much on the eve of the 1990 recession. We've spoken about opening Margaret just as the big Covid lockdown hit. You're about to open a new restaurant later this year in double Bay. Should we be worried?

You talked a good weekend about your luck with opening restaurants. Of course, you opened Rockpool pretty much on the eve of the 1990 recession. We've spoken about opening Margaret just as the big Covid lockdown hit. You're about to open a new restaurant later this year in double Bay. Should we be worried?

No, I'm. I'm hoping that I skirt around any economic or world pandemic this time around, because when I opened Bar and Grill and Spice Temple in Sydney, of course we had the GFC, so we had the recession we had to have in 89 at 18% interest rates. We had global meltdown, um, in the financial meltdown. And then and then of course, after the GFC, you would have thought you were safe. And then I'm about to open a restaurant in double Bay and a massive pandemic, um, you know, hits the whole world, not just here in Australia. So I'm kind of hoping this one's my good luck charm. It's my lucky last. And, um, hopefully, uh, no ill disasters, um, for either economy or health.

No, I'm. I'm hoping that I skirt around any economic or world pandemic this time around, because when I opened Bar and Grill and Spice Temple in Sydney, of course we had the GFC, so we had the recession we had to have in 89 at 18% interest rates. We had global meltdown, um, in the financial meltdown. And then and then of course, after the GFC, you would have thought you were safe. And then I'm about to open a restaurant in double Bay and a massive pandemic, um, you know, hits the whole world, not just here in Australia. So I'm kind of hoping this one's my good luck charm. It's my lucky last. And, um, hopefully, uh, no ill disasters, um, for either economy or health.

Tell us about the vision for songbird. And also it's really two venues in one because there's going to be a bar part of it as well. Um, $12 million all up. This is a big.

Tell us about the vision for songbird. And also it's really two venues in one because there's going to be a bar part of it as well. Um, $12 million all up. This is a big.

Yeah, it's a massive venture. And, you know, the house is riding on it again. So, um. Yeah, I hope Sam forgives me if anything goes wrong. Uh, but one of the things that's been great about that is very organically happened. You know, it was one of those things where I really wanted the bar and, and, and we were talking about that. And then all of a sudden, you know, Matthew Barakat who, who sort of does a lot of work with me and got me down to double Bay. He's I said, oh, you know, we should do something in a restaurant with the ground floor and level one. And I said, oh, we'd make a great Chinese restaurant. And so we started to hatch a plan. And then as we started to put everything together, I realized one, one, that that building should probably not be a high infrastructure restaurant, but it is. But there's a beautiful staircase leading to the second floor, which is the last of the original floors, and it just seemed one. I kind of needed the back of house space to make the whole thing work. And two, it seemed a bit ridiculous to walk up this beautiful staircase only half the way up. So we went into kind of long, protracted negotiation, and then without realising, I ended up with four levels. Having said I'd never open a multi-level restaurant ever. And not I'm not just on two levels, I'm on four. So, um. Yeah, look, it's it's crazy, but I think I just want a really beautiful Chinese restaurant that, uh, people can be really sure of the quality of the produce and how beautiful it is and the craft of the cooking and and some great service that it's it's ACMi Korean are doing it for me. Who did Margaret. And it's going to look beautiful. The renderings look incredible. The building itself is an old Neville Guzman mid-century minimalistic. It's going to look so beautiful it'll glow. One of the reasons I called it songbird is it's going to be like this beautiful bird and a glowing cage. And then, uh, Bobby's is is named after Bob Rogers, who's Lyndon and Natalie, my business partners. And my wife Samantha's business partners in in Bobby's. Um, they have Dante in New York and now Dante in LA. So, you know, it's been number one in the top 50 bars and all that sort of thing, or 50 best. So he worked for me when he was 17 for a number of years, came back Open Bar and Grill and Spice Temple did the program in Sydney with me. So, you know, we've just had this sort of dream of doing something together. And this great bar came along and I thought, this should be a world class cocktail bar. What better than get, you know, one of the guys who really leads the world in that. So a bit like the great partnership that that Mike and Mia have got with Sam and I and Baker Blue, it just seemed like a perfect bookend to have these two joint ventures that that really are, you know, world class but very focused on, on what they do. Great bakery, great bar.

Yeah, it's a massive venture. And, you know, the house is riding on it again. So, um. Yeah, I hope Sam forgives me if anything goes wrong. Uh, but one of the things that's been great about that is very organically happened. You know, it was one of those things where I really wanted the bar and, and, and we were talking about that. And then all of a sudden, you know, Matthew Barakat who, who sort of does a lot of work with me and got me down to double Bay. He's I said, oh, you know, we should do something in a restaurant with the ground floor and level one. And I said, oh, we'd make a great Chinese restaurant. And so we started to hatch a plan. And then as we started to put everything together, I realized one, one, that that building should probably not be a high infrastructure restaurant, but it is. But there's a beautiful staircase leading to the second floor, which is the last of the original floors, and it just seemed one. I kind of needed the back of house space to make the whole thing work. And two, it seemed a bit ridiculous to walk up this beautiful staircase only half the way up. So we went into kind of long, protracted negotiation, and then without realising, I ended up with four levels. Having said I'd never open a multi-level restaurant ever. And not I'm not just on two levels, I'm on four. So, um. Yeah, look, it's it's crazy, but I think I just want a really beautiful Chinese restaurant that, uh, people can be really sure of the quality of the produce and how beautiful it is and the craft of the cooking and and some great service that it's it's ACMi Korean are doing it for me. Who did Margaret. And it's going to look beautiful. The renderings look incredible. The building itself is an old Neville Guzman mid-century minimalistic. It's going to look so beautiful it'll glow. One of the reasons I called it songbird is it's going to be like this beautiful bird and a glowing cage. And then, uh, Bobby's is is named after Bob Rogers, who's Lyndon and Natalie, my business partners. And my wife Samantha's business partners in in Bobby's. Um, they have Dante in New York and now Dante in LA. So, you know, it's been number one in the top 50 bars and all that sort of thing, or 50 best. So he worked for me when he was 17 for a number of years, came back Open Bar and Grill and Spice Temple did the program in Sydney with me. So, you know, we've just had this sort of dream of doing something together. And this great bar came along and I thought, this should be a world class cocktail bar. What better than get, you know, one of the guys who really leads the world in that. So a bit like the great partnership that that Mike and Mia have got with Sam and I and Baker Blue, it just seemed like a perfect bookend to have these two joint ventures that that really are, you know, world class but very focused on, on what they do. Great bakery, great bar.

Is there any concern that you could overextend yourself here? You know, you've been through times in your career where you've opened a flurry of venues, and sometimes not all of them have have worked out. Have you learned from those? Yeah. Well, as.

Is there any concern that you could overextend yourself here? You know, you've been through times in your career where you've opened a flurry of venues, and sometimes not all of them have have worked out. Have you learned from those? Yeah. Well, as.

I say, I've, you know, made some great mistakes that have, you know, financially caused penalty in my life. So, so I've kind of unpick those and I've had a really good think about what what they are and what the problems have been. And, and uh, each time I open something, I put all of those learnings into into that. So look, you know, there is no such thing as a sure thing. So anything can fail. And you never know what that what that might be. So. So I never take anything for granted, um, put 110% in. And I know that my people do as well. So well planned, well executed. Um, we've looked at all the things that we think we need to to get right. You know, the position we think is right. You know, I've always said the three most important things in restaurants is location, location, location. And then you get everything else right and you've got half a chance of kicking a goal. So, you know, as far as that's concerned. North facing, beautiful building, great suburb. Fantastically I can actually walk and cook. In all those restaurants on the same night, um, and be standing next to my guys talking to them and be talking to customers. Like, I can be in the bakery in the morning. So so that's essentially why I've kind of decided that, you know, populating double Bay has been really important to me.

I say, I've, you know, made some great mistakes that have, you know, financially caused penalty in my life. So, so I've kind of unpick those and I've had a really good think about what what they are and what the problems have been. And, and uh, each time I open something, I put all of those learnings into into that. So look, you know, there is no such thing as a sure thing. So anything can fail. And you never know what that what that might be. So. So I never take anything for granted, um, put 110% in. And I know that my people do as well. So well planned, well executed. Um, we've looked at all the things that we think we need to to get right. You know, the position we think is right. You know, I've always said the three most important things in restaurants is location, location, location. And then you get everything else right and you've got half a chance of kicking a goal. So, you know, as far as that's concerned. North facing, beautiful building, great suburb. Fantastically I can actually walk and cook. In all those restaurants on the same night, um, and be standing next to my guys talking to them and be talking to customers. Like, I can be in the bakery in the morning. So so that's essentially why I've kind of decided that, you know, populating double Bay has been really important to me.

Many people credit you with actually transforming double Bay. Certainly that part of it are really galvanizing the transformation of double Bay. We spoke a little bit about, uh, it going through a few years of strife there. Is that how you see it? Have you sort of built?

Many people credit you with actually transforming double Bay. Certainly that part of it are really galvanizing the transformation of double Bay. We spoke a little bit about, uh, it going through a few years of strife there. Is that how you see it? Have you sort of built?

Well, I think I'm one of the one of the ingredients. Um, it's my family's restaurant. It's named after my mother. I'm completely committed to it. And I'm there every day. And so you'll see a lot of chefs, uh, at my, in my, you know, sort of stage in life or even just before ten years before they'll have a multitude of restaurants and they'll open new restaurants and you might see them, you most likely will never see them. But the reality of what I've done in double Bay is you will see me there. You'll see me hosing the plants down. You'll see me picking up the dog poo. You'll see me cursing the dogs who pee on my pots. You know you'll see me moving the the line bikes out of the way. You'll see me cooking in the kitchen. You'll see me. And in the sitting in the restaurant on the computer, doing all my emails and, uh, you know. So. So I think the fact that I've kind of had the career that I've had have the notoriety that I have, um, and then I've committed to being one place has been really quite invigorating for double Bay and invigorating for a lot of the businesses around it. I think now a lot think that they know they want to be open on Sunday and they, you know, many of them have said to me that they're 25, 30% busier, um, since we opened.

Well, I think I'm one of the one of the ingredients. Um, it's my family's restaurant. It's named after my mother. I'm completely committed to it. And I'm there every day. And so you'll see a lot of chefs, uh, at my, in my, you know, sort of stage in life or even just before ten years before they'll have a multitude of restaurants and they'll open new restaurants and you might see them, you most likely will never see them. But the reality of what I've done in double Bay is you will see me there. You'll see me hosing the plants down. You'll see me picking up the dog poo. You'll see me cursing the dogs who pee on my pots. You know you'll see me moving the the line bikes out of the way. You'll see me cooking in the kitchen. You'll see me. And in the sitting in the restaurant on the computer, doing all my emails and, uh, you know. So. So I think the fact that I've kind of had the career that I've had have the notoriety that I have, um, and then I've committed to being one place has been really quite invigorating for double Bay and invigorating for a lot of the businesses around it. I think now a lot think that they know they want to be open on Sunday and they, you know, many of them have said to me that they're 25, 30% busier, um, since we opened.

What is it like for you working with your family? With your daughters? Uh, on the floor.

What is it like for you working with your family? With your daughters? Uh, on the floor.

Oh. It's awesome. It's really great. I'm so proud of them. Um, Josephine's just recently announced that she's pregnant, so I had to keep that under wraps for about ten weeks. That wasn't easy. Uh, so I'm super charged and excited there. And, you know, my, uh, her husband, who worked for me for years, has got a brilliant little restaurant group on the on the, on the move at the moment. And, um, and, uh, you know, Macy's studying uni and and, and Indies, uh, year 12 and they work in the restaurant and Sam's on the pass, you know, seven out of the nine shifts and so, so it really for me, it's just like an extension of our whole family being together. It's a really nice thing. And what I love about it is that people see that we're there. See? We're united. See that we've got the gold to, you know, really pay homage to my amazing mother who the restaurant's called Margaret because she had such an impact on my life and my life professionally, um, as well as my, you know, life as a human and how I feel about people and respect and love and so forth. But but it really is the situation where, um, you know, we're we I think we get a lot of energy off of each other. I think the staff get a lot of energy off us. And and I think importantly, our customers really love us being there and and being engaged with us.

Oh. It's awesome. It's really great. I'm so proud of them. Um, Josephine's just recently announced that she's pregnant, so I had to keep that under wraps for about ten weeks. That wasn't easy. Uh, so I'm super charged and excited there. And, you know, my, uh, her husband, who worked for me for years, has got a brilliant little restaurant group on the on the, on the move at the moment. And, um, and, uh, you know, Macy's studying uni and and, and Indies, uh, year 12 and they work in the restaurant and Sam's on the pass, you know, seven out of the nine shifts and so, so it really for me, it's just like an extension of our whole family being together. It's a really nice thing. And what I love about it is that people see that we're there. See? We're united. See that we've got the gold to, you know, really pay homage to my amazing mother who the restaurant's called Margaret because she had such an impact on my life and my life professionally, um, as well as my, you know, life as a human and how I feel about people and respect and love and so forth. But but it really is the situation where, um, you know, we're we I think we get a lot of energy off of each other. I think the staff get a lot of energy off us. And and I think importantly, our customers really love us being there and and being engaged with us.

So double Bay has obviously changed a lot. Uh, it's a it's a question cities around the country are kind of looking at, you know, uh, some high streets have have suffered decline, some suburbs have faded. A lot of places around Australia will be looking at, you know, how can we reinvigorate these spaces. Do you think food can transform a suburb? I mean, um, Terry Durack spoke to us about how it had happened in Potts Point many, many years ago. Do you think it can really change the way suburb looks and things?

So double Bay has obviously changed a lot. Uh, it's a it's a question cities around the country are kind of looking at, you know, uh, some high streets have have suffered decline, some suburbs have faded. A lot of places around Australia will be looking at, you know, how can we reinvigorate these spaces. Do you think food can transform a suburb? I mean, um, Terry Durack spoke to us about how it had happened in Potts Point many, many years ago. Do you think it can really change the way suburb looks and things?

Yeah, I think I think it's the way people interact with the suburb and that changes. You know, it's sort of it becomes slightly bigger than just local. You know, it's kind of the village belongs to a lot more people. So I think the I think foods are really important thing. I think one of the things that's very important in double Bay as well is the commercial side. And then of course the residential side. So having commerce done there, um, helps the restaurants and supports the restaurants and the sandwich shops and the bakery. And having retail there brings people in to shop and stay and eat. And of course, having people live there gets them to come down and buy a stick of bread, have a coffee, go to Margaret, have a burger next door. Um, it's sort of it's sort of continually evolves and grows. And I think, you know, having facility is really important, and food and beverage is an important part of that facility.

Yeah, I think I think it's the way people interact with the suburb and that changes. You know, it's sort of it becomes slightly bigger than just local. You know, it's kind of the village belongs to a lot more people. So I think the I think foods are really important thing. I think one of the things that's very important in double Bay as well is the commercial side. And then of course the residential side. So having commerce done there, um, helps the restaurants and supports the restaurants and the sandwich shops and the bakery. And having retail there brings people in to shop and stay and eat. And of course, having people live there gets them to come down and buy a stick of bread, have a coffee, go to Margaret, have a burger next door. Um, it's sort of it's sort of continually evolves and grows. And I think, you know, having facility is really important, and food and beverage is an important part of that facility.

You might be physically confined to double Bay these days, but you do keep an eye on the food scene around the country. Where's the most exciting stuff happening at the moment? And feel free not to say Sydney or Melbourne, but what do you predict for the next couple of years? And food?

You might be physically confined to double Bay these days, but you do keep an eye on the food scene around the country. Where's the most exciting stuff happening at the moment? And feel free not to say Sydney or Melbourne, but what do you predict for the next couple of years? And food?

Well, I think, uh, you know, Brisbane's going crazy. Uh, lots and lots of new restaurants opening up there. And then they've got the really big stuff with the casino, um, happening. And, uh, I think Victoria Street Wharf is called and how street wharves are going gangbusters up there. So that's really interesting. And the scenes kind of gone really quickly over the last five years. And James Street and. So well. So. So Brisbane's really vibrant. You know I've always loved what's going on down in Melbourne. And I particularly love the classics. You know, flower drum. Uh when you look at Francois, you know, um, you know, I love what Andrew does. Um, Andrew McConnell has great stuff with gimlet and, and, um, and supernormal and, and Cutler and co and and so forth. His places are always, you know, they're always really solid. Great food, you know, beautiful produce, awesome craft look great. So I always love Melbourne from that perspective. And I haven't been for Perth for ages. But I hear there's some really good interesting things going on over there. So I think the whole country is kind of, you know, come out of Covid and there's a lot of, uh, there's there's a lot of expenditure going on. Infrastructure wise. Things are being built when that happens. Uh, there are restaurant opportunities and there are new precincts created. And, and so I think, look, you know, there's a really fantastic time coming up for Australia. And we might have to get through a bit of a flat line to get there, but that flat line is going to go, you know, straight up a hill. As soon as we get we get to the other side of that. I'm positive of it.

Well, I think, uh, you know, Brisbane's going crazy. Uh, lots and lots of new restaurants opening up there. And then they've got the really big stuff with the casino, um, happening. And, uh, I think Victoria Street Wharf is called and how street wharves are going gangbusters up there. So that's really interesting. And the scenes kind of gone really quickly over the last five years. And James Street and. So well. So. So Brisbane's really vibrant. You know I've always loved what's going on down in Melbourne. And I particularly love the classics. You know, flower drum. Uh when you look at Francois, you know, um, you know, I love what Andrew does. Um, Andrew McConnell has great stuff with gimlet and, and, um, and supernormal and, and Cutler and co and and so forth. His places are always, you know, they're always really solid. Great food, you know, beautiful produce, awesome craft look great. So I always love Melbourne from that perspective. And I haven't been for Perth for ages. But I hear there's some really good interesting things going on over there. So I think the whole country is kind of, you know, come out of Covid and there's a lot of, uh, there's there's a lot of expenditure going on. Infrastructure wise. Things are being built when that happens. Uh, there are restaurant opportunities and there are new precincts created. And, and so I think, look, you know, there's a really fantastic time coming up for Australia. And we might have to get through a bit of a flat line to get there, but that flat line is going to go, you know, straight up a hill. As soon as we get we get to the other side of that. I'm positive of it.

And you personally, I mean, you said uh, songbird would be your lucky loss, but you also said in the good Weekend story that you feel in many ways, you're only at the beginning of the things that you want to do. So, um, could we see more?

And you personally, I mean, you said uh, songbird would be your lucky loss, but you also said in the good Weekend story that you feel in many ways, you're only at the beginning of the things that you want to do. So, um, could we see more?

I, you know, you know, I really want to get the charity Hope hospitality. We changed the name to. I really want to get that going. Um, I'm very lucky to have, um, three awesome luminaries, uh, who spent a lot of time working with me and understand my ethos. I certainly want to make Margaret even better than it is. I want to do a lot of work with the bakery, maybe a second bakery or a third bakery somewhere. It'd be cool. Um, but, you know, I see myself staying in double Bay. Unless. Look, I never say never. If if something really amazing came up and it was really special and it fitted within the suite of all the great things that we have. Because what's great about what we've got in double Bay is they're all built beautifully. They've all got amazing kitchens, they all look fabulous. The infrastructure behind them is brilliant. Um, and, and so if I, you know, had someone offered me something that was just impossible to refuse. And, you know, I'd hate to say never, but, you know, it's not likely.

I, you know, you know, I really want to get the charity Hope hospitality. We changed the name to. I really want to get that going. Um, I'm very lucky to have, um, three awesome luminaries, uh, who spent a lot of time working with me and understand my ethos. I certainly want to make Margaret even better than it is. I want to do a lot of work with the bakery, maybe a second bakery or a third bakery somewhere. It'd be cool. Um, but, you know, I see myself staying in double Bay. Unless. Look, I never say never. If if something really amazing came up and it was really special and it fitted within the suite of all the great things that we have. Because what's great about what we've got in double Bay is they're all built beautifully. They've all got amazing kitchens, they all look fabulous. The infrastructure behind them is brilliant. Um, and, and so if I, you know, had someone offered me something that was just impossible to refuse. And, you know, I'd hate to say never, but, you know, it's not likely.

Would you open in another city?

Would you open in another city?

Uh. Probably not. You know, I don't really want to get that situation where I'm. If I'm if I'm leaving double Bay and I'm not with my staff and customers, I'd really like to be, uh, in the Maldives or in San Sebastian or in Tokyo or in London, um, you know, or in Bermuda or, you know, something like that.

Uh. Probably not. You know, I don't really want to get that situation where I'm. If I'm if I'm leaving double Bay and I'm not with my staff and customers, I'd really like to be, uh, in the Maldives or in San Sebastian or in Tokyo or in London, um, you know, or in Bermuda or, you know, something like that.

Join the club snail mail. Perry, thank you so much for joining. Good weekend.

Join the club snail mail. Perry, thank you so much for joining. Good weekend.

Michael, it's a pleasure.

Michael, it's a pleasure.

Good weekend. Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald. And The Age. Subscriptions power our newsrooms to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? And if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Jay Wong, editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio. Ruby Schwartz is head of podcasting, and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.

Good weekend. Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald. And The Age. Subscriptions power our newsrooms to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? And if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Jay Wong, editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio. Ruby Schwartz is head of podcasting, and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.