Hello, I'm Conrad Marshall, host of Good Weekend Talks. After a short summer break, the podcast will be back in late January 2024 with plenty of exciting interviews booked in the calendar already. But for now, enjoy one of our most popular episodes from the past year. And don't forget to subscribe right and share! This week we speak with Kate Legg, a Walkley Award winning journalist and author who's written a searing new book, Infidelity and Other Affairs, published by Thames and Hudson on February 28th, in which she describes discovering not only that her long term husband had been having an affair, but that her son did too, and that infidelity in fact runs across four generations of their family. And hosting this discussion about a raft of issues around infidelity, the rocky path towards forgiveness, for instance, and whether there's a nature or nurture element to cheating hearts is Katrina Strickland, the editor of Good Weekend.

Hello, I'm Conrad Marshall, host of Good Weekend Talks. After a short summer break, the podcast will be back in late January 2024 with plenty of exciting interviews booked in the calendar already. But for now, enjoy one of our most popular episodes from the past year. And don't forget to subscribe right and share! This week we speak with Kate Legg, a Walkley Award winning journalist and author who's written a searing new book, Infidelity and Other Affairs, published by Thames and Hudson on February 28th, in which she describes discovering not only that her long term husband had been having an affair, but that her son did too, and that infidelity in fact runs across four generations of their family. And hosting this discussion about a raft of issues around infidelity, the rocky path towards forgiveness, for instance, and whether there's a nature or nurture element to cheating hearts is Katrina Strickland, the editor of Good Weekend.

Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Kate.

Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Kate.

Hi.

Hi.

Um, congratulations, Kate, on an absolutely compelling book. I could not put it down for listeners who haven't read it. Tell us in a snapshot what you traverse in the book.

Um, congratulations, Kate, on an absolutely compelling book. I could not put it down for listeners who haven't read it. Tell us in a snapshot what you traverse in the book.

Well, I'd like readers to note from the outset that it's a book that's written with acceptance and forgiveness in mind, and that the story, the telling of the story has been tempered by emotions and the and the and the distance and the passage of time. So it's not a seething book full of vitriol. My husband and I met when we were young political journalists in Canberra, and there were affairs going on everywhere, under every desk, behind every door, in the parliamentary chambers and the press gallery and in the prime ministerial suite. When we married, I knew that there was a seam of infidelity through his family. There was a story that his grandmother, Gene, had had an affair with the lodger. And, uh, I knew that his father, the son of that marriage, had spilled the beans about the affair and voiced his suspicion, and he was kicked out of home and didn't return for a decade. But you never expect that that will visit you. And so even though our wedding was tricky because his father would be there with the much younger woman on his arm as well as his mother, and it would be difficult to camouflage them in a in a small crowd because his.

Well, I'd like readers to note from the outset that it's a book that's written with acceptance and forgiveness in mind, and that the story, the telling of the story has been tempered by emotions and the and the and the distance and the passage of time. So it's not a seething book full of vitriol. My husband and I met when we were young political journalists in Canberra, and there were affairs going on everywhere, under every desk, behind every door, in the parliamentary chambers and the press gallery and in the prime ministerial suite. When we married, I knew that there was a seam of infidelity through his family. There was a story that his grandmother, Gene, had had an affair with the lodger. And, uh, I knew that his father, the son of that marriage, had spilled the beans about the affair and voiced his suspicion, and he was kicked out of home and didn't return for a decade. But you never expect that that will visit you. And so even though our wedding was tricky because his father would be there with the much younger woman on his arm as well as his mother, and it would be difficult to camouflage them in a in a small crowd because his.

Father had had an affair too. Yes, as well as having.

Father had had an affair too. Yes, as well as having.

No affair, he was bringing the mistress who he'd had the affair with to the wedding. Yes. And his mother would be there as my. My husband's mother would be there as well. So the three of them were sort of circling uneasily in this very small crowd, and I still didn't think that infidelity would visit me. I was young, and I didn't realise that the future is often foretold in the footnotes of the past. And so we were happily married for 25 years, and when I first discovered the infidelity, it did make me think much more about the the theme of betrayal coursing through his family. But I was too preoccupied with surviving and holding everything together to give it much more thought. And, you know, distrust is a very hard guilt to shoulder and a difficult burden to, to live under. And it was only after we separated, a year after we separated, when our son had an affair that broke up his relationship, that I really became intrigued. And I wanted to unravel the strands of this infidelity story, an intergenerational story of infidelity, to see whether each couple had been the victim of a spiralling passion between two individuals. Did it grow out of an unhappy marriage, or was it behaviour that they had learnt at home, or was there some other reason for it? And that was when I began my search to try and understand what had happened.

No affair, he was bringing the mistress who he'd had the affair with to the wedding. Yes. And his mother would be there as my. My husband's mother would be there as well. So the three of them were sort of circling uneasily in this very small crowd, and I still didn't think that infidelity would visit me. I was young, and I didn't realise that the future is often foretold in the footnotes of the past. And so we were happily married for 25 years, and when I first discovered the infidelity, it did make me think much more about the the theme of betrayal coursing through his family. But I was too preoccupied with surviving and holding everything together to give it much more thought. And, you know, distrust is a very hard guilt to shoulder and a difficult burden to, to live under. And it was only after we separated, a year after we separated, when our son had an affair that broke up his relationship, that I really became intrigued. And I wanted to unravel the strands of this infidelity story, an intergenerational story of infidelity, to see whether each couple had been the victim of a spiralling passion between two individuals. Did it grow out of an unhappy marriage, or was it behaviour that they had learnt at home, or was there some other reason for it? And that was when I began my search to try and understand what had happened.

And how many years after your own experience was that like many years or many years?

And how many years after your own experience was that like many years or many years?

Yes, because we had we had tried to sort things out and salvage the marriage, but we came unstuck ultimately. And and then after we'd separated, it was then that our son had an affair that broke up the marriage. His relationship. They weren't married, but that was was the prompt for me to start looking at why and how.

Yes, because we had we had tried to sort things out and salvage the marriage, but we came unstuck ultimately. And and then after we'd separated, it was then that our son had an affair that broke up the marriage. His relationship. They weren't married, but that was was the prompt for me to start looking at why and how.

And tell us just briefly, what happened in your marriage. How did you find out about the affair, and then what kind of conversations? Because you're very good friends now. How did you get kind of like, what happened? How did you find out? And then how did you get beyond that?

And tell us just briefly, what happened in your marriage. How did you find out about the affair, and then what kind of conversations? Because you're very good friends now. How did you get kind of like, what happened? How did you find out? And then how did you get beyond that?

Well, the first time I found out, he told me he had to tell me because her husband had discovered, um, phone records. And and so we've been out to a milestone birthday lunch for a mutual friend. And that night, I was getting dinner, and my husband called me out to the garage. And as I say in the book, he dumped his own hard rubbish. But I held tight on to it because I drove around the neighborhood absolutely, utterly bereft. But there was. I decided that I.

Well, the first time I found out, he told me he had to tell me because her husband had discovered, um, phone records. And and so we've been out to a milestone birthday lunch for a mutual friend. And that night, I was getting dinner, and my husband called me out to the garage. And as I say in the book, he dumped his own hard rubbish. But I held tight on to it because I drove around the neighborhood absolutely, utterly bereft. But there was. I decided that I.

Was a complete shock.

Was a complete shock.

Complete shock, complete shock.

Complete shock, complete shock.

No. No hints. No.

No. No hints. No.

There had been rumors of an affair when we had been living in Sydney, so that had been about five years earlier. But he had denied it completely. And I just got. Along with life. You know, as a young mother with kids and trying to work. You're really struggling just to keep on top of things. And it wasn't something I accepted. What he's he's denial and just went on with got on with my life. And so he told me about that affair. And our son was just our eldest boy was just about to go into year 12, and I just didn't want to sabotage his prospects. So we just held on tight to it and tried to make things work. And we did for a while. We moved on and three years later, I sat down at the home computer one morning and he'd forgotten to log off from his private email account. And then I saw that the affair had rekindled. And there were also emails to another, another woman there that I didn't recognize. And and that was probably the most difficult, that knowledge, um, because I had, uh, sort of relaxed again into the relationship. I wasn't, um, trawling through things. I believed him, I wasn't suspicious, but that was a real, um, as Helen Garner says in her book, where she describes the infidelity that she experienced like a blow from a baseball bat. Yeah.

There had been rumors of an affair when we had been living in Sydney, so that had been about five years earlier. But he had denied it completely. And I just got. Along with life. You know, as a young mother with kids and trying to work. You're really struggling just to keep on top of things. And it wasn't something I accepted. What he's he's denial and just went on with got on with my life. And so he told me about that affair. And our son was just our eldest boy was just about to go into year 12, and I just didn't want to sabotage his prospects. So we just held on tight to it and tried to make things work. And we did for a while. We moved on and three years later, I sat down at the home computer one morning and he'd forgotten to log off from his private email account. And then I saw that the affair had rekindled. And there were also emails to another, another woman there that I didn't recognize. And and that was probably the most difficult, that knowledge, um, because I had, uh, sort of relaxed again into the relationship. I wasn't, um, trawling through things. I believed him, I wasn't suspicious, but that was a real, um, as Helen Garner says in her book, where she describes the infidelity that she experienced like a blow from a baseball bat. Yeah.

And then was that when you broke up?

And then was that when you broke up?

Um, no. Sucker for punishment that I am. Haha, no. We stuck together for another four years and really worked. We really worked at the things that, um, that that he believed had brought us unstuck. So we then we eventually got counseling and, and tried to to stay together because I really loved this man and I'd known him for much longer together. Been together for almost 30 years. Yeah, yeah. And so he was, you know, my mother died when I was 23, and I'd been with this man for longer than I'd known my mother. So he was my family. He was my father of my children. And I really wanted to try and make this work. But, you know, it was nonetheless still really difficult, as I said, because you can't shift the distrust. And, you know, that night after reading those emails, I then burgled his phone to find out the true dimensions of his deceit. And that was the night when I punched myself over and over again. Tell us.

Um, no. Sucker for punishment that I am. Haha, no. We stuck together for another four years and really worked. We really worked at the things that, um, that that he believed had brought us unstuck. So we then we eventually got counseling and, and tried to to stay together because I really loved this man and I'd known him for much longer together. Been together for almost 30 years. Yeah, yeah. And so he was, you know, my mother died when I was 23, and I'd been with this man for longer than I'd known my mother. So he was my family. He was my father of my children. And I really wanted to try and make this work. But, you know, it was nonetheless still really difficult, as I said, because you can't shift the distrust. And, you know, that night after reading those emails, I then burgled his phone to find out the true dimensions of his deceit. And that was the night when I punched myself over and over again. Tell us.

About that.

About that.

Well, it was just a fury. You unleashed this fury as. As Helen Garner writes, you go berserk. And there's no other better word for the mania that's unleashed by the fury of betrayal. Um. And it probably prevented me from murdering him. Yeah.

Well, it was just a fury. You unleashed this fury as. As Helen Garner writes, you go berserk. And there's no other better word for the mania that's unleashed by the fury of betrayal. Um. And it probably prevented me from murdering him. Yeah.

You punch yourself instead of yourself.

You punch yourself instead of yourself.

Yeah. And.

Yeah. And.

And you got bruises and bruises and bruises.

And you got bruises and bruises and bruises.

And the bruises were almost a sort of, uh, physical proof of my discombobulation. I was sort of weirdly proud of this awful tattoo. You know, the bruises heal quickly, but, you know, an Ayah that's murderous enough to understand how treachery and jealousy unleashed terrible physical violence, which we know it does. That came in surges. And that's where I liken it to the sort of symptoms of post-traumatic stress syndrome, where you'll be traveling along and all of a sudden something will remind you of an event in the past. And you you have to reconcile what you thought, what had happened with what you now know had transpired. And so it's very difficult to be released from that cycle. And the other thing, of course, is the suspicion is such a poisonous venom. You know, I went from head in the clouds, oblivion to suddenly being every time his phone beeped or, you know, anything unravelled from the past. It had trigger another round of suspicion and paranoia and checking to see whether the dissembling was, in fact, you know, whether there were lies in the dissembling or whether a truth had been told.

And the bruises were almost a sort of, uh, physical proof of my discombobulation. I was sort of weirdly proud of this awful tattoo. You know, the bruises heal quickly, but, you know, an Ayah that's murderous enough to understand how treachery and jealousy unleashed terrible physical violence, which we know it does. That came in surges. And that's where I liken it to the sort of symptoms of post-traumatic stress syndrome, where you'll be traveling along and all of a sudden something will remind you of an event in the past. And you you have to reconcile what you thought, what had happened with what you now know had transpired. And so it's very difficult to be released from that cycle. And the other thing, of course, is the suspicion is such a poisonous venom. You know, I went from head in the clouds, oblivion to suddenly being every time his phone beeped or, you know, anything unravelled from the past. It had trigger another round of suspicion and paranoia and checking to see whether the dissembling was, in fact, you know, whether there were lies in the dissembling or whether a truth had been told.

So only after the second. So you can keep the suspicion going after the first go.

So only after the second. So you can keep the suspicion going after the first go.

Because he promised, really promised to try and make things work, you know, and it was a very, you know, I felt I felt comforted by that. And I once again, I sort of got lulled into the business of living and and keeping the family together and doing all of those things that you do with, with children. And I didn't want the, you know, our troubles to leach into our next of kin. I was so conscious as a journalist who's toured people's lives and.

Because he promised, really promised to try and make things work, you know, and it was a very, you know, I felt I felt comforted by that. And I once again, I sort of got lulled into the business of living and and keeping the family together and doing all of those things that you do with, with children. And I didn't want the, you know, our troubles to leach into our next of kin. I was so conscious as a journalist who's toured people's lives and.

Tragedies.

Tragedies.

Tragedies and grief that that damage begets damage. And I really knew that a line had to be drawn and we had to somehow move on. And then when the when the when the second affair, when I discovered again that that it was still going on, that was when I felt so deaf, blind and dumb, you know, that I.

Tragedies and grief that that damage begets damage. And I really knew that a line had to be drawn and we had to somehow move on. And then when the when the when the second affair, when I discovered again that that it was still going on, that was when I felt so deaf, blind and dumb, you know, that I.

And so were you punching yourself.

And so were you punching yourself.

Punching myself in.

Punching myself in.

A rage, self-flagellation self. Not just not just because you couldn't punch him, but you actually felt no cross with.

A rage, self-flagellation self. Not just not just because you couldn't punch him, but you actually felt no cross with.

You crossing myself and and but I think it was partly that I had this rage bubbling inside of me and I needed to release it. And that's what I did. You know, you can't. No. Grief scores us in different ways. We respond differently to, uh, to hurt. That's caused. And that was my response at the time.

You crossing myself and and but I think it was partly that I had this rage bubbling inside of me and I needed to release it. And that's what I did. You know, you can't. No. Grief scores us in different ways. We respond differently to, uh, to hurt. That's caused. And that was my response at the time.

And now they're, you know, everyone knows about seven stages of grieving. Are there seven or more or less stages of how you where you move on to after betrayal?

And now they're, you know, everyone knows about seven stages of grieving. Are there seven or more or less stages of how you where you move on to after betrayal?

Yes, I think I'm sure there are. I mean, there hasn't been a book written on the seven stages of grieving after an affair, but it's that those cycles of fury and self-pity and victimhood and, you know, that rage, the confusion, the paranoia. And I think you have to tell the story again and again and again, almost until you become bored with it. And of course, you know the best, the best. Healing influence is really the passage of time. That's the only thing. As with any shock, whether it's a death in the family or whether it's a, uh, an affair, you know, it takes the mind and the body and the heart sometime to adjust and accept the new reality, the new world order.

Yes, I think I'm sure there are. I mean, there hasn't been a book written on the seven stages of grieving after an affair, but it's that those cycles of fury and self-pity and victimhood and, you know, that rage, the confusion, the paranoia. And I think you have to tell the story again and again and again, almost until you become bored with it. And of course, you know the best, the best. Healing influence is really the passage of time. That's the only thing. As with any shock, whether it's a death in the family or whether it's a, uh, an affair, you know, it takes the mind and the body and the heart sometime to adjust and accept the new reality, the new world order.

And what helped the most, either that you did or that people did for you, what do you look back on and think, gee, that person really understood what I needed or that that helped. That was a balm in a way that other things weren't.

And what helped the most, either that you did or that people did for you, what do you look back on and think, gee, that person really understood what I needed or that that helped. That was a balm in a way that other things weren't.

Well, it's interesting because people tell you different things. Of course, there's a whole lot of friends who say, leave, take the children, the passport, the dogs, the cats get out of there. And and then there are those who say, you have to make the decision for yourself. And I think that was the best advice I got, because every affair will be different according to the people, the protagonists, the circumstances, the hourglass they inhabit. And I did want to try and stay and make the marriage work, even though, you know, there had been this terrible betrayal. And and so then it just became a matter of time. And as I say, talking about talking about the story that happened to us, and also we talked for hours and hours and hours and hours about what had happened and how we'd got into this wilderness. So, you know, we've always been great talkers, you know, because we're journalists, we're storytellers. And, you know, we had we have a very strong relationship. I often say we were growing in ash because when soon after we married, we moved to Washington, D.C., and had our children. We had no family, very few friends in those early days. And we lived in a neighborhood that was in the middle of a battle over crack cocaine, and there were police helicopters flying overhead at night in search of, you know, criminals. There was a sign in our local laundromat that asked patrons to take the bullets out of their jeans before they put them in the washing machine. We had a neighbor who was shot in the crossfire of a a turf battle over drugs. And so we had bars on our windows. So we became very, very close. And I think that closeness actually stood us in good stead for when we, you know, hit the skids and we knew, you know, that was our way of trying to process what had happened to us was through conversations about, um, you know, his log of claims, the way I behaved and how I felt about the betrayal.

Well, it's interesting because people tell you different things. Of course, there's a whole lot of friends who say, leave, take the children, the passport, the dogs, the cats get out of there. And and then there are those who say, you have to make the decision for yourself. And I think that was the best advice I got, because every affair will be different according to the people, the protagonists, the circumstances, the hourglass they inhabit. And I did want to try and stay and make the marriage work, even though, you know, there had been this terrible betrayal. And and so then it just became a matter of time. And as I say, talking about talking about the story that happened to us, and also we talked for hours and hours and hours and hours about what had happened and how we'd got into this wilderness. So, you know, we've always been great talkers, you know, because we're journalists, we're storytellers. And, you know, we had we have a very strong relationship. I often say we were growing in ash because when soon after we married, we moved to Washington, D.C., and had our children. We had no family, very few friends in those early days. And we lived in a neighborhood that was in the middle of a battle over crack cocaine, and there were police helicopters flying overhead at night in search of, you know, criminals. There was a sign in our local laundromat that asked patrons to take the bullets out of their jeans before they put them in the washing machine. We had a neighbor who was shot in the crossfire of a a turf battle over drugs. And so we had bars on our windows. So we became very, very close. And I think that closeness actually stood us in good stead for when we, you know, hit the skids and we knew, you know, that was our way of trying to process what had happened to us was through conversations about, um, you know, his log of claims, the way I behaved and how I felt about the betrayal.

And I guess was part of the ability to say that he felt remorse and that he was willing was willing to talk it through because I guess, you know, often with affairs, the person who's had the affair just doesn't want to talk about it, wants to leave, isn't regretful.

And I guess was part of the ability to say that he felt remorse and that he was willing was willing to talk it through because I guess, you know, often with affairs, the person who's had the affair just doesn't want to talk about it, wants to leave, isn't regretful.

Mhm, mhm.

Mhm, mhm.

How crucial were those two factors do you think in being able to find your way through.

How crucial were those two factors do you think in being able to find your way through.

Oh the remorse was critical. And I know you know I say in the book that affairs might be fabulous for libido and the thrill and excitement of leaving the quotidian details of daily life, but they're shocking for mental health and well-being. And I know for both of us, you know, he he was absolutely flagellation himself with the self-loathing and shame of what he'd done. And and I, you know, was was crippled by this sense of, of, um, you know, terrible betrayal and the lies as hell. And Garner wrote to her ex, you know, lies drive people crazy. They can drive people crazy because you just can never trust them again.

Oh the remorse was critical. And I know you know I say in the book that affairs might be fabulous for libido and the thrill and excitement of leaving the quotidian details of daily life, but they're shocking for mental health and well-being. And I know for both of us, you know, he he was absolutely flagellation himself with the self-loathing and shame of what he'd done. And and I, you know, was was crippled by this sense of, of, um, you know, terrible betrayal and the lies as hell. And Garner wrote to her ex, you know, lies drive people crazy. They can drive people crazy because you just can never trust them again.

And it's cognitive dissonance, isn't it? Because you're kind of non-verbal cues are saying one thing and then you're being told something else. And if the two don't marry up, it drives you insane.

And it's cognitive dissonance, isn't it? Because you're kind of non-verbal cues are saying one thing and then you're being told something else. And if the two don't marry up, it drives you insane.

And so before he came back, before I decided to give it another go, he I asked him to come clean so that I wouldn't have to discover any more bodies, because I remember saying to a girlfriend at the time that, um, she said, why are you still looking for bodies? You know, stop. You know, you don't need to find a mass grave. And that was.

And so before he came back, before I decided to give it another go, he I asked him to come clean so that I wouldn't have to discover any more bodies, because I remember saying to a girlfriend at the time that, um, she said, why are you still looking for bodies? You know, stop. You know, you don't need to find a mass grave. And that was.

Absolutely not going to stop until you found the mass graves.

Absolutely not going to stop until you found the mass graves.

Well, you sort of cut. And then, of course, once it's become sort of, you know, out into the out into the open and people, friends, you know, your circle know about them, you know, there are people who will come forward and tell you other little bits and pieces that you might not have known at the time. And so it and it does seem bad, you know. Well, it just lends to the process of your unraveling, really. I mean, it's not good because.

Well, you sort of cut. And then, of course, once it's become sort of, you know, out into the out into the open and people, friends, you know, your circle know about them, you know, there are people who will come forward and tell you other little bits and pieces that you might not have known at the time. And so it and it does seem bad, you know. Well, it just lends to the process of your unraveling, really. I mean, it's not good because.

You don't know where the bottom is, where the floor.

You don't know where the bottom is, where the floor.

Is, and you keep crumbling over it. And I remember with this particular girlfriend, she's only reminded me of this the other day. I'd completely forgotten about it when we had this dinner, and it was just in the height of all of the troubles, and she said to me before I left, I've just got one more thing to tell you. And I said, don't tell me you had an affair with him. And of course she hadn't. But that's the state of mind I was in. Yeah, but his remorse was, was. And so he. And then he and his atonement, his, his absolute commitment to atoning for what had happened and his love of his sons and of me, really? Um, even though, you know, he behaved like this.

Is, and you keep crumbling over it. And I remember with this particular girlfriend, she's only reminded me of this the other day. I'd completely forgotten about it when we had this dinner, and it was just in the height of all of the troubles, and she said to me before I left, I've just got one more thing to tell you. And I said, don't tell me you had an affair with him. And of course she hadn't. But that's the state of mind I was in. Yeah, but his remorse was, was. And so he. And then he and his atonement, his, his absolute commitment to atoning for what had happened and his love of his sons and of me, really? Um, even though, you know, he behaved like this.

Uh. And how did he atone?

Uh. And how did he atone?

Well, just in terms of, you know, he I had always felt safe and loved by him until this happened. And and it was just that that. Being there that being aware of things and although, you know, the slightest thing could trigger or an unleash all of those raw emotions again, you know, we were usually able to vet it down. And also because we were both concerned about the the environment that our sons, who were by then in late adolescence were growing up in. So, yeah, he was very much aware of that. And that was part of his decision to come back and try and try and salvage our relationship.

Well, just in terms of, you know, he I had always felt safe and loved by him until this happened. And and it was just that that. Being there that being aware of things and although, you know, the slightest thing could trigger or an unleash all of those raw emotions again, you know, we were usually able to vet it down. And also because we were both concerned about the the environment that our sons, who were by then in late adolescence were growing up in. So, yeah, he was very much aware of that. And that was part of his decision to come back and try and try and salvage our relationship.

And then you did eventually break up. It just was too hard.

And then you did eventually break up. It just was too hard.

It was too hard. And he was travelling in between Sydney and Melbourne because he'd gone up there to take up a job. And it was just coming back and forth was just exhausting. And I think he found the whole thing in the end was just too difficult to get back on the rails. And so I was devastated when that happened. But, um, you know, once again, I got through that and we were able eventually to, um, have a, have a relationship.

It was too hard. And he was travelling in between Sydney and Melbourne because he'd gone up there to take up a job. And it was just coming back and forth was just exhausting. And I think he found the whole thing in the end was just too difficult to get back on the rails. And so I was devastated when that happened. But, um, you know, once again, I got through that and we were able eventually to, um, have a, have a relationship.

And it was after that, after you'd separated that you a few years after, I think, that you decided to look. Yeah. The book idea to go back into his his father's affair and his father's mother's affair. Mhm. Tell us what you found there and what kind of light bulbs kind of went off.

And it was after that, after you'd separated that you a few years after, I think, that you decided to look. Yeah. The book idea to go back into his his father's affair and his father's mother's affair. Mhm. Tell us what you found there and what kind of light bulbs kind of went off.

Well, I wanted to first, um, I wanted to write about it. Um, after he'd left me, I had this really strong impulse to write about it. So before.

Well, I wanted to first, um, I wanted to write about it. Um, after he'd left me, I had this really strong impulse to write about it. So before.

That.

That.

Well, before that, actually, when I'd sat down and discovered those emails on the computer and I had burgled his phone and I understood the dimensions of the deceit I wanted to. I kept notes at that time with a view to perhaps writing something about it, and I asked my then literary agent, Mary Cunneen, what I should do, and she discouraged me from doing that, which was very wise of her. Because of this, it's a little bit like Harry's Prince Harry's memoir, spare, you know. It's been written in the heat of the emotional turmoil of all of the issues within his family, and you really need that passage of time to develop some psychological objectivity, you know, otherwise you're just adding heat, not light. And so that was what I wanted to do. And so.

Well, before that, actually, when I'd sat down and discovered those emails on the computer and I had burgled his phone and I understood the dimensions of the deceit I wanted to. I kept notes at that time with a view to perhaps writing something about it, and I asked my then literary agent, Mary Cunneen, what I should do, and she discouraged me from doing that, which was very wise of her. Because of this, it's a little bit like Harry's Prince Harry's memoir, spare, you know. It's been written in the heat of the emotional turmoil of all of the issues within his family, and you really need that passage of time to develop some psychological objectivity, you know, otherwise you're just adding heat, not light. And so that was what I wanted to do. And so.

So were you monitoring yourself until you felt ready?

So were you monitoring yourself until you felt ready?

No, I just put it to one side after Mary said, that's not a good idea. Don't do it. I just put it to one side and I got on with the job that I was doing that I loved, which was writing long form journalism for a magazine and telling them about other people's conundrums and conflicts. And that really distracted me. And it was after our son's relationship had broken down that that's that's when I started looking at this idea of an intergenerational story through four generations. But I initially thought I would do it as in an imaginative realm. It's much easier, of course, to discuss these things as a work of fiction. Um, and so that was how I was going to proceed. And, and, and my husband was very happy with that. He thought that would be fine. I bet he was, and I did, and that's when I began the research. And we drove together to Broken Hill to visit. There are two members of his family that was still linked with that original event, his grandmother's affair. And so the lodger with the lodger who then gone off to war and died. And so they had actually stayed together. His grandmother and grandfather had stayed together until they died. And but there was still two sibling and and a widow, sister in law, who remembered the events of that time. And so we went to Broken Hill together to, to research. And I came back and I was also then delving into his mother and father's affair and interviewing my mother in law, you know, with a view to doing this work of fiction. And I remember at the beginning of lockdown was when I was working on this project. I'd retired from work, and I was also during that time going through my father's filing cabinet, which was in the garage and learning about my own family of origin and some of the curses that have bedeviled us. And it was around that time that I, I was introduced to this fabulous poem by W.B. Yeats called The Circus Animals Desertion. The last verse of that poem. These images, because complete, grew in pure mind. But out of what began a mound of refuse, or the sweepings of a street. Old bottles, old kettles and a broken can. Old iron, old bones, old rags. That raving slut who keeps the till. Now that my lad is gone I must lie down. Where all the ladders start. In the foul rag and bone shop of the heart. And I thought that that image to me captured what I wanted to do I suddenly it was like a fishbone dislodging from my throat. I suddenly got this idea that I could write a truthful story about what had happened and tell the story of these four generations and try and walk in the shoes of the women involved in these stories, both the wives and the mistresses. And I could also visit the curses in my own family. In trying to unravel the mystery of becoming who we are. And that was what led me to write this book of essays. And I remember when I had this revelation, my husband came to visit me, and we stood on the porch and I told him that I was no longer thinking of doing a book of fiction, that I thought I would tackle it in a nonfiction book. And there was a very, very, very long pause. And then and he said, well, and I said, let me see if I can do it. Let me see if I can do it. Let me see if I can write it. And I would never publish anything without his approval and the family's approval. So I knew I had a long road ahead of me. Yeah, there was a.

No, I just put it to one side after Mary said, that's not a good idea. Don't do it. I just put it to one side and I got on with the job that I was doing that I loved, which was writing long form journalism for a magazine and telling them about other people's conundrums and conflicts. And that really distracted me. And it was after our son's relationship had broken down that that's that's when I started looking at this idea of an intergenerational story through four generations. But I initially thought I would do it as in an imaginative realm. It's much easier, of course, to discuss these things as a work of fiction. Um, and so that was how I was going to proceed. And, and, and my husband was very happy with that. He thought that would be fine. I bet he was, and I did, and that's when I began the research. And we drove together to Broken Hill to visit. There are two members of his family that was still linked with that original event, his grandmother's affair. And so the lodger with the lodger who then gone off to war and died. And so they had actually stayed together. His grandmother and grandfather had stayed together until they died. And but there was still two sibling and and a widow, sister in law, who remembered the events of that time. And so we went to Broken Hill together to, to research. And I came back and I was also then delving into his mother and father's affair and interviewing my mother in law, you know, with a view to doing this work of fiction. And I remember at the beginning of lockdown was when I was working on this project. I'd retired from work, and I was also during that time going through my father's filing cabinet, which was in the garage and learning about my own family of origin and some of the curses that have bedeviled us. And it was around that time that I, I was introduced to this fabulous poem by W.B. Yeats called The Circus Animals Desertion. The last verse of that poem. These images, because complete, grew in pure mind. But out of what began a mound of refuse, or the sweepings of a street. Old bottles, old kettles and a broken can. Old iron, old bones, old rags. That raving slut who keeps the till. Now that my lad is gone I must lie down. Where all the ladders start. In the foul rag and bone shop of the heart. And I thought that that image to me captured what I wanted to do I suddenly it was like a fishbone dislodging from my throat. I suddenly got this idea that I could write a truthful story about what had happened and tell the story of these four generations and try and walk in the shoes of the women involved in these stories, both the wives and the mistresses. And I could also visit the curses in my own family. In trying to unravel the mystery of becoming who we are. And that was what led me to write this book of essays. And I remember when I had this revelation, my husband came to visit me, and we stood on the porch and I told him that I was no longer thinking of doing a book of fiction, that I thought I would tackle it in a nonfiction book. And there was a very, very, very long pause. And then and he said, well, and I said, let me see if I can do it. Let me see if I can do it. Let me see if I can write it. And I would never publish anything without his approval and the family's approval. So I knew I had a long road ahead of me. Yeah, there was a.

Safe place to do it.

Safe place to do it.

And I also felt that, in a sense, knowing that he would read it and that others would read it really kept me honest about myself and about what had happened because, um, you know, you couldn't inflate or exaggerate things. Yes.

And I also felt that, in a sense, knowing that he would read it and that others would read it really kept me honest about myself and about what had happened because, um, you know, you couldn't inflate or exaggerate things. Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Just to suit yourself. You know, it had to be a fair story that took account of both perspectives, because as we know as journalists, there's your version, my version and the truth. Yeah. And somewhere between there, I had to find a version that fit fitted, really, and that everyone could live with. So there are things that have been left out. There's not every obviously. Yes. Well and and also not necessary to the story things. This is the thing the distance gives you, you know, the heat of the moment. Or you can feel as the emotions flooding through you.

Just to suit yourself. You know, it had to be a fair story that took account of both perspectives, because as we know as journalists, there's your version, my version and the truth. Yeah. And somewhere between there, I had to find a version that fit fitted, really, and that everyone could live with. So there are things that have been left out. There's not every obviously. Yes. Well and and also not necessary to the story things. This is the thing the distance gives you, you know, the heat of the moment. Or you can feel as the emotions flooding through you.

And you want to punish someone by putting in the awful.

And you want to punish someone by putting in the awful.

Awful details. But when you take the panoramic view, you know, you just have this shift in perspective that makes you understand the greater picture and not just the pain of the individual. And that's what I think that that time, the passage of time allowed me to do. And, you know, it's nonetheless been difficult. I had to negotiate with each member of the family. Um, but we're a very we talk a lot about everything. We've always been over sharers. Yeah. So I think that that everyone was, was okay with it in the end. I mean, whether or not I'm sure my mother in law wishes I was a mechanic and not a storyteller because she's a very private person. Um, but she's, you know, not now 98, and she's a voracious reader. She's read it. Yeah. And she's a voracious reader. And we've always been very close, because I lost my own mother when I was 23. And so when I married my husband and we had children, she was it. She was the only grandmother in the picture, and we're very close. And she understood. I think, you know, my need to write about it. And so she held her nose and closed her eyes and said, yes.

Awful details. But when you take the panoramic view, you know, you just have this shift in perspective that makes you understand the greater picture and not just the pain of the individual. And that's what I think that that time, the passage of time allowed me to do. And, you know, it's nonetheless been difficult. I had to negotiate with each member of the family. Um, but we're a very we talk a lot about everything. We've always been over sharers. Yeah. So I think that that everyone was, was okay with it in the end. I mean, whether or not I'm sure my mother in law wishes I was a mechanic and not a storyteller because she's a very private person. Um, but she's, you know, not now 98, and she's a voracious reader. She's read it. Yeah. And she's a voracious reader. And we've always been very close, because I lost my own mother when I was 23. And so when I married my husband and we had children, she was it. She was the only grandmother in the picture, and we're very close. And she understood. I think, you know, my need to write about it. And so she held her nose and closed her eyes and said, yes.

Wow. And how did you. I think it's fascinating also that you're you're so close to her. She's Molly, is that right? And obviously she's going to be not anti her son. And then you had the flip side where your son had the affair.

Wow. And how did you. I think it's fascinating also that you're you're so close to her. She's Molly, is that right? And obviously she's going to be not anti her son. And then you had the flip side where your son had the affair.

And.

And.

You felt.

You felt.

Um.

Um.

A kind of loyalty to his wife as well. Tell us about negotiating. You know, the loyalty to your son versus the woman, the sisterhood feeling and and the kind of, um, you know, you're the mother in law of someone who's just had happened to her. What happened to you? How do you manage that?

A kind of loyalty to his wife as well. Tell us about negotiating. You know, the loyalty to your son versus the woman, the sisterhood feeling and and the kind of, um, you know, you're the mother in law of someone who's just had happened to her. What happened to you? How do you manage that?

Well, you don't understand. At the time, um, when I got the call from her, I flew to her side because she was just descending into this dark tunnel where I had just emerged from that when I. When she rang me, I was holidaying up in northern New South Wales, in the middle of the forest with with the, with a, with a man I'd just reconnected with. And we were having a relationship and I had really I was coming out, coming out of the tunnel and it just drew me right back in.

Well, you don't understand. At the time, um, when I got the call from her, I flew to her side because she was just descending into this dark tunnel where I had just emerged from that when I. When she rang me, I was holidaying up in northern New South Wales, in the middle of the forest with with the, with a, with a man I'd just reconnected with. And we were having a relationship and I had really I was coming out, coming out of the tunnel and it just drew me right back in.

And this was your just so listeners know your son had cheated on her? Yes.

And this was your just so listeners know your son had cheated on her? Yes.

Had cheated on her at the time. And, and they were.

Had cheated on her at the time. And, and they were.

Fairly newly married.

Fairly newly married.

And they were they were not married, they were engaged to be married. And they'd had a, had a child and and so in a sense, I flew down there to give her comfort and to be there and to cook meals and to wash clothes and to help her look after the the baby, because her own mother was away at the time. And it was difficult because of the fact that I had recovered and I knew there was that you could recover. But of course, when you have just learned that's the last thing on your mind, you cannot see your way forward. You can't even see the next day, let alone the next year. And so all I could do was be a real practical assistance. And I used to take the baby out into the beach of Williamstown and walk along in the wind, and I would sort of sob and cry and sing to him and, and come back to the house and be there and, uh, it it did remind me of going to see my own mother in law, Molly. And of course, all I wanted for her to do when I landed in her lap, hysterical, was to disown her son. Yeah. Which she didn't do because she had emerged and she knew herself. The. If there was life after infidelity.

And they were they were not married, they were engaged to be married. And they'd had a, had a child and and so in a sense, I flew down there to give her comfort and to be there and to cook meals and to wash clothes and to help her look after the the baby, because her own mother was away at the time. And it was difficult because of the fact that I had recovered and I knew there was that you could recover. But of course, when you have just learned that's the last thing on your mind, you cannot see your way forward. You can't even see the next day, let alone the next year. And so all I could do was be a real practical assistance. And I used to take the baby out into the beach of Williamstown and walk along in the wind, and I would sort of sob and cry and sing to him and, and come back to the house and be there and, uh, it it did remind me of going to see my own mother in law, Molly. And of course, all I wanted for her to do when I landed in her lap, hysterical, was to disown her son. Yeah. Which she didn't do because she had emerged and she knew herself. The. If there was life after infidelity.

Because she'd been cheating, she'd been.

Because she'd been cheating, she'd been.

Cheated on. And she and she had in fact, she she says in the book that in a sense, it made her stand on her own two feet. And this once people recover, of course, they get a shift in perspective. They can see things differently. But in the heat of the moment, all you want to do is rip the limbs from the one who has hurt you and harmed you. You want everyone to rise up in a coalition of outrage, you know, and ban them from the household.

Cheated on. And she and she had in fact, she she says in the book that in a sense, it made her stand on her own two feet. And this once people recover, of course, they get a shift in perspective. They can see things differently. But in the heat of the moment, all you want to do is rip the limbs from the one who has hurt you and harmed you. You want everyone to rise up in a coalition of outrage, you know, and ban them from the household.

But you know, how did you deal with that, with knowing that that's what she would want. And yet it's your son I know. How did you.

But you know, how did you deal with that, with knowing that that's what she would want. And yet it's your son I know. How did you.

I didn't try and say too much. As I said, I was just there to comfort her and help. Yeah. And because she was so distressed, you know, that really wasn't a chance for her to absorb any sort of life messages or advice that I could give. It was really just a question of getting through those first months of emotional turmoil. And the other important aspect of this was that it really forced my husband and I to to be the grownups, because we had this fledgling family that was tearing apart and we had to put on our big people pants. And that really, I think, was part of the process of getting us back together in the sense of having a relationship where we could be friends, being friends, where we could share, once again, you know, in a in an intimate way, our, our family and the things that they were going through and did.

I didn't try and say too much. As I said, I was just there to comfort her and help. Yeah. And because she was so distressed, you know, that really wasn't a chance for her to absorb any sort of life messages or advice that I could give. It was really just a question of getting through those first months of emotional turmoil. And the other important aspect of this was that it really forced my husband and I to to be the grownups, because we had this fledgling family that was tearing apart and we had to put on our big people pants. And that really, I think, was part of the process of getting us back together in the sense of having a relationship where we could be friends, being friends, where we could share, once again, you know, in a in an intimate way, our, our family and the things that they were going through and did.

Talking to your son about it help you understand your husband's perspective on the on, you know, like because because that's someone you're so close to. Did it did that kind of have any crossover in your mind? Kind of really.

Talking to your son about it help you understand your husband's perspective on the on, you know, like because because that's someone you're so close to. Did it did that kind of have any crossover in your mind? Kind of really.

Only much later, when I was beginning to write the book, did I talk to my son about whether or not our troubles had had an impact on him? And yes, he thought that that was part of the reason you see this door ajar. And if you'd watched your parents, um, separate because of something like this, I think it leaves that possibility in your mind that that's an exit out of a relationship, or that there is a life after infidelity and that you will survive it. And I think he felt that as a result of watching us.

Only much later, when I was beginning to write the book, did I talk to my son about whether or not our troubles had had an impact on him? And yes, he thought that that was part of the reason you see this door ajar. And if you'd watched your parents, um, separate because of something like this, I think it leaves that possibility in your mind that that's an exit out of a relationship, or that there is a life after infidelity and that you will survive it. And I think he felt that as a result of watching us.

And what did you conclude in general about kind of nature versus nurture? So for generations of one family, it's you didn't really conclude it's in the genes. What did you conclude kind of makes it makes it, you know, go, go in many generations.

And what did you conclude in general about kind of nature versus nurture? So for generations of one family, it's you didn't really conclude it's in the genes. What did you conclude kind of makes it makes it, you know, go, go in many generations.

Well, I think that in the early research, when I started researching the book in 2017, I came across a small study, a number of small studies that have been done by American academics, where they had looked at intergenerational infidelity, and they concluded that offspring who are raised in a home where infidelity happens are much more likely to go down that path themselves. It's almost as if they've inherited a blueprint from above that that's okay to do that, so that instead of focusing on attachment and salvaging their relationship, they'll be more likely to to stray to Rome. And so that was interesting to me. That was what what really involved in me to keep going with, with this, with this project. And then during the during the writing of the book, I came across this research into, uh, into our neural wiring and chemistry, which suggests that it's possible that people's reward circuitry in their brain may encourage some people to be promiscuous and and and enter into risky relationships and other people to stay completely, um, bonded and attached. And I think the zoologists who were studying the prairie vole in Illinois and they were doing it just a standard sort of population survey. And they were watching the voles, and they realized that the prairie voles came in pairs, which was a very unusual thing. There's only a tiny percentage of mammalian species where the where the there's bonding between the parents of offspring. Subsequent research found, in fact, that there were some promise. There was some, uh, opportunistic infidelity among the prairie walls, but even so, they would raise the offspring together. You know, the male would guard the nest and ward off predators and, you know, find food and even in some cases would bite off the umbilical cord when a baby vole was born. And and they became then aware there was another sort of vole, montane mole that lived in the Rocky Mountain regions. And this foal was promiscuous and a gadabout. They would mate and then flee, so they had no bonding instincts whatsoever. Inter of a pair of neuroscientists who really focused on this question of of of the neural pathways in the brain, because the two voles were 99% genetically alike, but there was a 1% difference, and they found that it was to do with. Neurochemicals vasopressin and oxytocin, which promote bonding and attachment. The prairie vole had more neuro receptors to and they were nearer the reward circuitry of the brain, and so they were much more influenced by vasopressin and oxytocin, much more likely to bond. Whereas the Rocky Mountain montane vole there had fewer receptors, and these were much further away from the reward circuitry of the brain. And so this this led to speculation about whether or not some people are just wired differently, whether or not some people might be predisposed to cheat because of the wiring, the genetic wiring of their brain. Now that studies have, they found correlations only. So there's no proof of a cause and effect. But the but the question was one that I found fascinating. And, you know, it may well be the beginning of the frontier of new research into why we stray.

Well, I think that in the early research, when I started researching the book in 2017, I came across a small study, a number of small studies that have been done by American academics, where they had looked at intergenerational infidelity, and they concluded that offspring who are raised in a home where infidelity happens are much more likely to go down that path themselves. It's almost as if they've inherited a blueprint from above that that's okay to do that, so that instead of focusing on attachment and salvaging their relationship, they'll be more likely to to stray to Rome. And so that was interesting to me. That was what what really involved in me to keep going with, with this, with this project. And then during the during the writing of the book, I came across this research into, uh, into our neural wiring and chemistry, which suggests that it's possible that people's reward circuitry in their brain may encourage some people to be promiscuous and and and enter into risky relationships and other people to stay completely, um, bonded and attached. And I think the zoologists who were studying the prairie vole in Illinois and they were doing it just a standard sort of population survey. And they were watching the voles, and they realized that the prairie voles came in pairs, which was a very unusual thing. There's only a tiny percentage of mammalian species where the where the there's bonding between the parents of offspring. Subsequent research found, in fact, that there were some promise. There was some, uh, opportunistic infidelity among the prairie walls, but even so, they would raise the offspring together. You know, the male would guard the nest and ward off predators and, you know, find food and even in some cases would bite off the umbilical cord when a baby vole was born. And and they became then aware there was another sort of vole, montane mole that lived in the Rocky Mountain regions. And this foal was promiscuous and a gadabout. They would mate and then flee, so they had no bonding instincts whatsoever. Inter of a pair of neuroscientists who really focused on this question of of of the neural pathways in the brain, because the two voles were 99% genetically alike, but there was a 1% difference, and they found that it was to do with. Neurochemicals vasopressin and oxytocin, which promote bonding and attachment. The prairie vole had more neuro receptors to and they were nearer the reward circuitry of the brain, and so they were much more influenced by vasopressin and oxytocin, much more likely to bond. Whereas the Rocky Mountain montane vole there had fewer receptors, and these were much further away from the reward circuitry of the brain. And so this this led to speculation about whether or not some people are just wired differently, whether or not some people might be predisposed to cheat because of the wiring, the genetic wiring of their brain. Now that studies have, they found correlations only. So there's no proof of a cause and effect. But the but the question was one that I found fascinating. And, you know, it may well be the beginning of the frontier of new research into why we stray.

And do you see similar characteristics in the in the four family members as different to other family members in that way?

And do you see similar characteristics in the in the four family members as different to other family members in that way?

Yes, I do. You know, they were there both in all of the, all of the, the in each coupling, the ones who strayed are intensely sociable. You know, nothing derails their pursuit of goals and dreams. They're extremely sort of conscious of how they look. And, yeah, with fashion and style and, and I just wondered whether, you know, self-gratification and inability, restrained self gratification was also one of it was one thing that they all shared and there was common between all of them.

Yes, I do. You know, they were there both in all of the, all of the, the in each coupling, the ones who strayed are intensely sociable. You know, nothing derails their pursuit of goals and dreams. They're extremely sort of conscious of how they look. And, yeah, with fashion and style and, and I just wondered whether, you know, self-gratification and inability, restrained self gratification was also one of it was one thing that they all shared and there was common between all of them.

Yeah. So interesting. And I guess one of the things that often comes up when affairs get mentioned is that, oh, we should all be more like the French. You know, it's not the it's not the having sex with someone else that is the problem. It's the betrayal. It's the lies.

Yeah. So interesting. And I guess one of the things that often comes up when affairs get mentioned is that, oh, we should all be more like the French. You know, it's not the it's not the having sex with someone else that is the problem. It's the betrayal. It's the lies.

The lies and the dishonesty.

The lies and the dishonesty.

What did you reflect on that? Well, I think.

What did you reflect on that? Well, I think.

That there's been a great shift, you know, don't forget, you know, forever affairs have been shrouded in secrecy and shame. And it's really only in the last, probably 20 or 30 years that people have really started to research and to talk about why they happen. And having had conversations with young adults who are dating and they talk about ethical monogamy and non ethical monogamy, and they and there are now commentators who are like Dan Savage, who's gay, married and monogamous, and he has a view that that we promised not to stray. But sometimes people do. And if they do, it shouldn't be the end of the world, that honesty is the best way forward, and that you should try and hold on to the good things about the relationship if it happens, and I, I was really influenced by that. I thought it was such a sensible and measured approach, so that if there can be honesty and it can be accepted by both parties, then at least no one has to suffer the lies and the and the dissembling. You know, they can perhaps reach some agreement. I mean, look, funnily enough, I just had a discussion with a woman the other day. And of course, as soon as you tell anyone you're writing about infidelity, everyone has a story. And she had a story about her husband and her who had talked about, you know, maybe having relationships outside of the outside of their marriage. And she she did. She had a lustful feelings for another man. And so she went to bed with him. And but it only reinforced her realization that her husband was very good in bed and a great partner. So back she came. Yes. So, you know, who knows? I think honesty is the best way forward though, because it minimizes the capacity for people to be hurt. But then, of course, when you're in the thralls of a great love affair, you know, the moral rectitude goes out the window. And that's the other thing I learned about studying this and walking in the shoes of the women who'd been and had affairs. You know, as Shakespeare said, lovers and madmen have such seething brains, such shaping fantasies they apprehend more than cool reason can ever comprehend. And I understood that better then that. It wasn't that anyone wanted necessarily to hurt me. The primary motive was to be together with someone who they had fallen into the thrall of. Yes. And it was understanding that great passion. And I'm someone who's a bit prudish and prudent, and I actually felt rather dull at times writing this book that I had never let you know, loved and dared all. I had been careful and but, you know, passion is purple, and to be prim and pallid is dull and decent. And that was me. But you know.

That there's been a great shift, you know, don't forget, you know, forever affairs have been shrouded in secrecy and shame. And it's really only in the last, probably 20 or 30 years that people have really started to research and to talk about why they happen. And having had conversations with young adults who are dating and they talk about ethical monogamy and non ethical monogamy, and they and there are now commentators who are like Dan Savage, who's gay, married and monogamous, and he has a view that that we promised not to stray. But sometimes people do. And if they do, it shouldn't be the end of the world, that honesty is the best way forward, and that you should try and hold on to the good things about the relationship if it happens, and I, I was really influenced by that. I thought it was such a sensible and measured approach, so that if there can be honesty and it can be accepted by both parties, then at least no one has to suffer the lies and the and the dissembling. You know, they can perhaps reach some agreement. I mean, look, funnily enough, I just had a discussion with a woman the other day. And of course, as soon as you tell anyone you're writing about infidelity, everyone has a story. And she had a story about her husband and her who had talked about, you know, maybe having relationships outside of the outside of their marriage. And she she did. She had a lustful feelings for another man. And so she went to bed with him. And but it only reinforced her realization that her husband was very good in bed and a great partner. So back she came. Yes. So, you know, who knows? I think honesty is the best way forward though, because it minimizes the capacity for people to be hurt. But then, of course, when you're in the thralls of a great love affair, you know, the moral rectitude goes out the window. And that's the other thing I learned about studying this and walking in the shoes of the women who'd been and had affairs. You know, as Shakespeare said, lovers and madmen have such seething brains, such shaping fantasies they apprehend more than cool reason can ever comprehend. And I understood that better then that. It wasn't that anyone wanted necessarily to hurt me. The primary motive was to be together with someone who they had fallen into the thrall of. Yes. And it was understanding that great passion. And I'm someone who's a bit prudish and prudent, and I actually felt rather dull at times writing this book that I had never let you know, loved and dared all. I had been careful and but, you know, passion is purple, and to be prim and pallid is dull and decent. And that was me. But you know.

Did it did the whole experience make you want to go and have a passionate affair? Did it kind of push you in that direction? No, it didn't go. Well, you know who you are. That's true. And did it make you, um, I guess another thing that I think you hear a lot of is that when the. This kind of thing happens. You suddenly see affairs everywhere and you see the, um, cracks in everyone's marriage that you might not have noticed before, that you can see the danger points that you you just would have been oblivious to. Did you find that you started concluding that everyone's either cheating or being cheated on?

Did it did the whole experience make you want to go and have a passionate affair? Did it kind of push you in that direction? No, it didn't go. Well, you know who you are. That's true. And did it make you, um, I guess another thing that I think you hear a lot of is that when the. This kind of thing happens. You suddenly see affairs everywhere and you see the, um, cracks in everyone's marriage that you might not have noticed before, that you can see the danger points that you you just would have been oblivious to. Did you find that you started concluding that everyone's either cheating or being cheated on?

No. Um, no, not that I felt that, really. But then I knew once, I once, you know, once, you know, you have this happen to you and you talk to people and so many people have gone through it. You really I mean, I think the conservative estimates say globally, there's 20 to 25% of all marriages, uh, are afflicted by infidelity and quite.

No. Um, no, not that I felt that, really. But then I knew once, I once, you know, once, you know, you have this happen to you and you talk to people and so many people have gone through it. You really I mean, I think the conservative estimates say globally, there's 20 to 25% of all marriages, uh, are afflicted by infidelity and quite.

Low to me.

Low to me.

I know, but of course, you know, this is the problem with these surveys, because they rely on self-reporting by people who are notoriously prone to lying. And and so you're not necessarily going to be able to get a grasp of the truth. So you rely on the views of counselors and therapists who sit with it every day in their office. Yes. And so they talk about it and, and and write about it. But it's, um. Yes, it it happens everywhere. Absolutely does. I mean, as I say, the more I talk about it and the more stories I hear, the more convinced I am that, yeah, every day, you know, even in this room. Possibly.

I know, but of course, you know, this is the problem with these surveys, because they rely on self-reporting by people who are notoriously prone to lying. And and so you're not necessarily going to be able to get a grasp of the truth. So you rely on the views of counselors and therapists who sit with it every day in their office. Yes. And so they talk about it and, and and write about it. But it's, um. Yes, it it happens everywhere. Absolutely does. I mean, as I say, the more I talk about it and the more stories I hear, the more convinced I am that, yeah, every day, you know, even in this room. Possibly.

Yeah. Most likely someone's hiding a story or someone's got a story to tell us is.

Yeah. Most likely someone's hiding a story or someone's got a story to tell us is.

Someone always hears or they know of someone or their best friend, or their brother in law or whoever, you know, there's always.

Someone always hears or they know of someone or their best friend, or their brother in law or whoever, you know, there's always.

And when you put the book out, obviously you're a well known journalist. Won't be hard for anyone to find out the other people involved.

And when you put the book out, obviously you're a well known journalist. Won't be hard for anyone to find out the other people involved.

Well, my my family. Yeah. My husband, it'll be easy, but, um, yeah.

Well, my my family. Yeah. My husband, it'll be easy, but, um, yeah.

And that's inevitably going to come out. How have you kind of war gamed dealing with that or have you not have you just got to take it as account.

And that's inevitably going to come out. How have you kind of war gamed dealing with that or have you not have you just got to take it as account.

No, we haven't. Um, you know, because we understand that people will Google it. But but this book has been written with great empathy. And, as I said, with acceptance and forgiveness in mind, in an attempt to throw, you know, to more, more light than heat. And so, um, we've just we've, we've, you know, and because it's been contained and because it's been carefully, careful, very carefully told, um, we just decided, well, well that it was, it was okay to do and that if it, you know, obviously it'll be he'll be identified. But, you know, we're big and ugly enough to deal with that. And because there's a point to the telling of the story now. And, you know, we've both been in journalism, we've been storytellers all our lives. And I mean, I, I, um, I have to say that Annabel Crabb, when she read the book, she said about my husband, she said a cheating status anxious man in the media is not a rare thing, but a person who understands his wife's need to write about it. Sure is. And I mean, I have to pay great tribute to my husband for allowing, you know, me to proceed. And, uh, you know, it is a measure of, um, as I said, you know, his his the guilt he feels, the atonement that he's made and, you know, his understanding of my need to tell the story in a dispassionate way.

No, we haven't. Um, you know, because we understand that people will Google it. But but this book has been written with great empathy. And, as I said, with acceptance and forgiveness in mind, in an attempt to throw, you know, to more, more light than heat. And so, um, we've just we've, we've, you know, and because it's been contained and because it's been carefully, careful, very carefully told, um, we just decided, well, well that it was, it was okay to do and that if it, you know, obviously it'll be he'll be identified. But, you know, we're big and ugly enough to deal with that. And because there's a point to the telling of the story now. And, you know, we've both been in journalism, we've been storytellers all our lives. And I mean, I, I, um, I have to say that Annabel Crabb, when she read the book, she said about my husband, she said a cheating status anxious man in the media is not a rare thing, but a person who understands his wife's need to write about it. Sure is. And I mean, I have to pay great tribute to my husband for allowing, you know, me to proceed. And, uh, you know, it is a measure of, um, as I said, you know, his his the guilt he feels, the atonement that he's made and, you know, his understanding of my need to tell the story in a dispassionate way.

It's also a measure of the fact that you have gone ahead on the friendship side, and both of you have kind of not let the friendship die. No, no. You know, you have this great line near the end about, you know, he comes and stays with you when he's in Melbourne and, you know, he the way he chooses toast still annoys you, but there's this great friendship underneath. I think that's a credit to you as well. Yeah.

It's also a measure of the fact that you have gone ahead on the friendship side, and both of you have kind of not let the friendship die. No, no. You know, you have this great line near the end about, you know, he comes and stays with you when he's in Melbourne and, you know, he the way he chooses toast still annoys you, but there's this great friendship underneath. I think that's a credit to you as well. Yeah.

Well and you know he has been a great he's been a great champion of my work. He's always been a real supporter of my work. And, you know, often reading stories before they were published and um, buying me clothes. He's always dressed me. I know that sounds bizarre, but I'm not a shock.

Well and you know he has been a great he's been a great champion of my work. He's always been a real supporter of my work. And, you know, often reading stories before they were published and um, buying me clothes. He's always dressed me. I know that sounds bizarre, but I'm not a shock.

Only it's the other way around.

Only it's the other way around.