This week Reid and Dan Isbell sit down with Music Row legend, Michael Heeney. He's the man behind some of your favorite songs, including "These Boots" and "Love Your Love The Most" by Eric Church. The guys dive in with Heeney on the current status of music row, an epic story that includes him passing out with a few country music legends, and what it has been like having a hit song, every decade, for the last five decades. The episode ends with the "Isbell Twin" world debut, a song written by Michael Heeney himself honoring Reid and Dan.
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What's Up? You're off in God's Country with Reid and dan Is Boy also known as The Brother's Hunt. We take a weekly drive and an intersection of country music in the great outdoors. Two things they go together like a Marlborough Red and Michael Heeney We're still doing time and George Jones produced by a meat eater In I Heeart podcast, We're sitting down with one of our favorite people of all time, definitely one of our favorite people in Nashville music, roll legend, music roll legend. He's had a hit in the past five decades. He's worn every hat around time. He's been a publisher, a plugger, cancer survivor. Yeah, man, he's he's just just intermission from stage four to lung cancer man. Just a goat, just how to have it? Just a goat, me too, Me too. I was really excited. I texted him and asked him. I was like, hey, man, would you please come and do this get up with us? And he was like, I don't know, and then we finally got him here. But great stories, songs, Yeah, great songs. Just a great dude. We love you, Michael Haney, Thank you for coming on with us. A lot of turkey gobbles in this one. A lot of turkey gobbles in this one. No filter on this cat. No kind of like the reds he used to smoke. All right, thanks for thanks for hanging out with us. Hope you'd love it. Smash that subscribe button, follow whatever you need to follow to keep up with whatever we're doing. Oh yeah, appreciate y'all.
Oh yeah, peace. Turn it on fruity loops.
That's are we recording?
All right?
That's that's preferring to the program that he's using Riot fruity Loops. Here's the thing about Heini, new guy, new guy Ray. Here's the thing about HAINI.
And if I'm offensive to you, I love you.
No doubt what I was about to say. You know you're in with Hani and he gives you a nickname.
When I learned from people early on, like Mel Tillis and Carl Perkins, if you wanted to get rid of a co, write immediately be abusive to them. Yeah to the co right, and find out what kind of salt I got. If they're good, they'll hang there with you, and I'll write and be your best buddy forever.
Wow, and.
Turkey, they're not already they're not gonna be in the business very long anyway.
That is that is ridiculously.
You think about all those kids that we had to write with. You can you can't even find them.
They can't this town choose them up and spit them out.
Who is still around?
That's right, that's right? And still around Jordan?
Yeah right, got d.
Fruity.
Okay, all right was the question there was hold on royalty songwriting? Royalty?
Yeah, royalty song right, royalties.
Yeah, I wish we had royalties, and uh, I guess I guess we need to give some sort of an intro hit maker.
Yeah, this is for this podcast. There's gonna be a lot of catching up. There's gonna be a lot of probably randomness random, There's gonna be uh some turkey. Great, it's a lot of turkey gobbles. Here's the deal with turkey gobbles is you can say whatever you want, but.
Then you get rid of it.
We'll just turkey gobble over. They just turkey go Yeah every time, so you said you say a bad word, then just turkey you're trying.
To be family friendly hit around here.
Okay, thanks for telling him that.
Now he's not super You think this guy cares what I tell you, No, I do.
Here's what's great. This this morning, I was pulling and we were we were, I was behind the same wreck. There are actually two recks on sixty five this morning coming up.
Yeah, I screwed and went to Franklin Nice.
I was coming into the to where we podcast, and there's this little side road and I was driving about to turn on the back alley and I see a truck that used to like I hadn't seen heny in a while, and and F one fifty pulled out. It looked like Hee's. I was like, oh, man, that looks like he's truck right there. By the time I saw Hani in there going the wrong way like in that look, I called him. I was like, hey, hey, he's like my GPS, don't lie me to do I've.
Been going the wrong way since I got here in nineteen seventy four. If it said do this, I was like, ah, maybe maybe, Okay, I don't know. I don't know.
I'm trying to think.
He said, I didn't know they moved Bobby's out of hour. This is pretty cool. Yeah, I was like it, or it's pretty depressed.
I can't I hadn't been there in thirty years.
It probably looks very different since last time you were just down here, honestly.
Yeah, So I went a year and a half and didn't come down to Music Row. And when I came down here a few months ago, I literally was.
Like, what the hell happened? Yeah?
Yeah, every office, every building I was ever in sure is gone.
Every office you've been.
Except for Sony, every office ever, every building is gone.
They're putting apartments on it now, and hotels.
And the old Cedar with the old combine, the old b MG, all those they're all torn down and put up things.
Where was a cuff Rose.
Rose over on Franklin Road, Okay, that got turned into a church and I don't know what it is now.
There's I don't even know where to begin because there's so many. There's so many all I mean, your favorite Eric Church songs he wrote, He's written all kinds of stuff. Still doing time for George.
I've written every song that you like. That's right, Yeah, he's written by anybody.
If you like it's no it was going. I mean you've had you've had a hit in what the last five decades? Yeah, that's I mean, that's that's probably a record in town. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's probably record. I don't know.
I don't know, but I think Bobby Brick done that. I was when I, uh, it was in my last year. I came down from Chicago go to school at MTSU for recording program which didn't exist. I went to the same program, and I was doing commercial jingles.
And do you remember any of them you wrote?
I wrote like Rubber made pizza. Hut oh, I mean pretty good. They paid for all my college and I couldn't. I shan't. And I got hired by Cedarwood Publishing Company, which was the second oldest publishing company in town, to do commercials form and write for them, and eventually turned into a song plugger in general manager. So I was a publisher for fourteen years. But I didn't write during the day because I didn't want to have any conflict with the other writers. So I wrote at night and the weekends, and I so I but I luckily started having hits. I started getting you can make a living getting songs recorded back then, you know, and then I had I was twenty seven. I guess when Georgia Jones cut still doing time wow. So and that made a big difference because people then said, Hey, we're gonna listening to some of your songs.
Yeah, it's funny how you gotta it seems like you gotta have that one to kind of get you into the the in the game.
Yeah, because they don't know what's on the menu.
Even though you've kind of been doing the you've been serving the same food the whole time.
No, it's food changes all the time.
Well, you know what I'm saying. The same as far as like what you do, what you do, I feel like kind of stays the same.
It's Seedywood publishing companies. So they had twenty thousand old songs of I mean Wayne Walker songs and Danny Dial songs and all I mean Carl Perkins songs and Buddy Holly songs. So when I was on the tape room and go I learned all I learned a country. Yeah, but by then country was starting to get you know wise I did, and you couldn't write just a verse chorus and repeat it and it had to be over two minutes. But man, the learning the basics of that set me on the path of AH. And then you learn to be I learned to be flexible and write you know.
Yeah, I will say I think when when I think about like what I learned from Heini, it was like how to number one, how to adapt in a room. Number two, it's not that serious. Number three, like it's not all about you, Like you can kind of learn to chameleon in the room, you know a little bit and find your spot.
Yeah, yeah, you have to. It's always about the song. It's never about the artist. It's never about you. It's it's always about the song because chances are that artist isn't going to record that song.
Good chances are.
And you want to leave with this just the best thing you can have any given day, and that may not be the best song that ever was, but at least you have to go, Okay, I did a good job today, Yeah, the best I could to the best I could today with this idiot.
Let's get it. Let's get into pickle that guitar.
And I'm not talking about uh Eric Church in the room. He is not. Instead of instead of royalties, they give you yetties, now cups. I went, I had to go down to Chiefs to a couple of things, and I've noticed they got like drinking. My handcuffs are selling I love your love. The most cups are selling. And they got boots. They're selling with these boots on them on the body. And I said royalties where and they went out, We're over here. Here's a yeah, here's.
Sometimes we get mad. I get it, woch Man, Just tell us what it is.
What you mad?
Is it?
You in lost?
Kids?
Might be your boss man or your neighbors.
Can just tell.
Us what you mad?
Wow, how's that? I am mad at hate?
Come on, man, I am mad at.
The far left, the far right. I'm a medium road conservative Christian kind of dude, and I'm pissed off at Trump, and I'm pissed off at Biden. I'm pissed off at our Congress, and I'm pissed off that everything boils down the money for those sons, And i just want everybody to stop hating. And I know that sounds like syrupy hippie from nineteen sixty eight, but I'm tired of it.
There's a bunch of it, man, and I'm tired.
Of the news outlets proliferating it just for the sake of Hey, we got selp crap.
Yeah, I hate it same. I am mad at guys who ride their bikes in the country in the middle of the road.
That's a good one.
Yeah, that makes me mad. Bro, when I'm coming out of my driveway and I'm way out, you know, and I turned down and there's seven dudes and spandex just just right here, dude, and I can't do anything bad. I can't so and they won't get out of the freaking well.
Why you slow down to stair at there?
They're you got. I mean, whether I wanted to or not. They were right in front of my truck doing three miles an hour.
And I also hate that. Like when I was driving yesterday, I heard a new Bro song on the radio.
I knew what Bro song? Okay, what was it?
I want to say, good call. But he's gained a lot of weight. He's getting he's gotten big guys gott he's not he's not like a little he's not like a heavy guy already. Yeah, yeah, he was a guy who was he has dancers.
Now, okay, let's start.
We're getting into.
The yeah, and we're narrowing it down. I thought, I can't believe there's there's still coming out with her my Bro song.
But yeah, they're still and everything else I kind of love.
Yeah, I'll tell you what I met at George Jordan. No, no, I'm not mad at your well not not right now. We were at the park the other day and taking our kids to there's a splash pad down south of town and dril hots we could took the kids a splash pad and then there's a little park connected and we were swinging our kids and Jordan goes Man, you don't you know what a good like what you're mad at would be. And I was like, what she was, like a parent that brings their kid to the park and just sits on their phone.
Oh it never Chastiseesuri.
Yeah, but just like and I get like our kids obviously you can't go to the park and sit and let them go around because they're they're young enough where you have to push them on the swing, you have to walk behind them, not let them fall and stuff. So like we're more engaged at the park because we have to be. But at the same time, like even if you even if you do go to the park and drop your kid off and let them go play, Dude, how much joy does it bring you just watching should it bring you just watching your kid? Have a good time at doing whatever they're doing.
Parents are not teaching kids back for other kids or other people agreed.
Playing kids are even the worst. I mean, there was a kid the other day that had a water gun and I was like, bro at the park, shoot my kid, and I'm beating your dad up. That's just kind of and their dad's over there.
Like.
Yeah, having no clue, not not having no clue if the kids being being an asshole.
Once every six minutes he would look up and go, Dalton.
Play with other kids?
Was his name? Dalton? Yeah I can Yeah, I can't see that kid right now.
Yeah, I I sorry.
I don't think not all Daltons Dalton.
I think I hate iPhones.
That's cool because they cut down.
We went to a restaurant last night and almost everybody around he.
Was going, yeah, right right.
I had a couple of kids come help me Saturday and the the backyard and uh ten minutes, old man handling and I took their phones. And you would have took their phones. I get, I'm paying them. How old are they twenty three?
You're like, all right, phones in the basket. We got to get these flowers in your clock, I.
Said, dude, you're we're cutting bushes and trimming stars. Mm hmmed. But I took their phones. I went, it's not happening. I was gonna have them work for five or six hours, and I sent them home average three hours because they had to have their phones.
They probably didn't get much done, honestly, they did.
I had to have their phone.
You know what I'm I'm realizing. It seems like with that generation, like they'll do things, but you gotta be on them.
Yeah.
How old do you do? Guy Ray?
Yeah?
Oh geeze, you gotta stay on over here.
It's all right.
I've never seen you guy Y on his phone, though it's true I haven't either.
Actually, Fruity Loops, just respect your elders. Learn from them, but what they see is uncospel.
That's true.
Plow your own path instead of pro tools or logic. You're on something else. I think that's good.
Well, what's your first like, what's what's your first memory? Hey, when when you got to Sony and he was there, that's one of your goings.
Well, we had a co write with a guy I want to say his name was so bad, but we had a co write and he was Chances are he's.
Gone he is he is, and chances are he might listen to this podcast, but and he knows who he is.
But that's why, you know, there's, like he was saying earlier, there's like hundreds.
He is tied to a lot of good in the room.
There's so there's millions, millions. But anyway, the guys, the guy, you know, we were pitching out ideas or whatever, and so the guy says, like ten ideas and he's like mm hmmm, uh uh, And then I said one. He was like, yeah, let's we're doing that. And the guy was like, well, no, but what about did you like the other thing? When I got other stuff? He was like, no, no, we're doing what dance today? And we just kind of what story did you think I was gonna tell?
Uh?
The j T story?
That's a great one.
You guys say, I forgot.
About the one. I remember that now.
Yeah, But that guy's gone.
What was he what did he keep saying? He kept saying I wanted Okay, So the god I don't even remember how the story ends is a different guy.
This is another one.
He goes, we were with this guy.
He was a hip hopper from out of Florida and he wanted to do country pitbull stuff.
Look, we can't say Florida. That will THERI it now just ready, just all right.
He's not in the business. He is cleaning boat bottoms. And he said, I remember Dan had a really good idea, and I said, let's just write that, and they kick a found out. I want to do something like j T. And I said, James, knowing he met justin Timberlake, and he goes, no, I want to play and he played this song and I said, yeah, James Taylor. And this went on for ten to fifteen minutes and he go no, no, no, j T. And I went, yeah, James Taylor, and I don't worry to happen at the end.
Of the guy wanted to be justin Timberlake so bad it.
Was so I wrote with that kid and Casey bethar the next week, okay, and Casey did a me. We were in at about fifteen twenty minutes and all of a sudden, Casey wasn't there, and I went looked in the bathroom and I went to look and his truck was gone no way, and I called him and he and he said, man, I just can't do it. I'm going on, he rolled on, you got up and left.
I didn't even tell you no, Savage.
I had always at least said goodbye or you suck.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, there's so many different that like, I mean, there's it's multi facetted as far as like my relationship with Heaty. One of the I have like three or four of my favorite things.
Uh.
One was for my birthday, he gave me a picture of himself autograph. I love it. I still has it's hanging in my bedroom right now. That's when I got that done.
And I gave one to Chesney, and I gave one to Eric Church, and I gave one to like, you know, four or five artists signed pictures. Eric's got this one little office and he doesn't have a lot of awards up. He's got like, he doesn't have any awards. He's got personal from governor.
He's got a picture in men it's hanging. It's hanging proudly.
I can say, I wrote, Eric loved my records.
Yeah that's what. Yeah, I think you love your love my records. I love your records. That's what I like that. Number two is when I was a brand new songwriter. Uh he we went to dinner one night and he took this is kinda kind of kind of chuck me up a little bit. He uh. He took his jacket off and he was like, here, man, you need a nice jacket. Like just tell you this just gave me a jacket, extremely sweet, extremely sweet. The other time, and.
I think I was down a couple of sizes.
You were and I was up, So it worked out. The other thing was he uh, I was on the verge of having a literal breakdown one day and I pulled into his I don't know why I didn't even I wasn't thinking about it.
Are you pulled into the studio house?
Yeah? Yeah, I just pulled into his house. He came outside and he was like, dude, chill out, chill out, and he hugged me. And he's just dude, he's just the he's just the best.
He's the best. I remember that.
Yeah, I just appreciate art.
We all have those little crises where it kind of our heads spin around into a it's all crazy stupid nuts and kind of get better stuff.
We all, especially in this especially in this business. Just give us a rundown kind of of your backstory of where you were born where kind of how you grew up, how you fell in love with I.
Grew up in Chicago.
He was interesting about this guy.
I grew up in Chicago land in an Irish Italian neighborhood, so we hit Irish music and we had Italian music.
In like nineteen twelve, right, yeah, it was fifties and it was just music all around me, everywhere, everywhere.
And so by nineteen sixty I was six and my brothers were older, and so they would bring home friends with Ray Charles Records and even Marty Robbins Records and Chuck Bar and Tooty Fruity and Long Tall Sally and all this stuff, and I was hooked on music. By the time I was six, six or seven years old, I was addicted. I remember I still have the record I saved. I was seven years old, and I wanted to buy.
You're seven years How are you saving money at seven years old?
We've lived in this apartment building and I would do odd jobs for people, like old would trash out, I sweep the hallways. I had helped mister Knutsen, the facility manager guy, do stuff and he'd pay me money.
Seven yeah, yeah, yeah.
My dad was dead, So I was like, I'm going to learn you know you got And my first record I ever bought was Marty Robbins a white sport coat and a pink carnation And the reason why I loved it so much as to why because of the background vocals had this reaverbond. I didn't know it was reaver, but I thought it was magic, and I just wore it out.
How did they make They did a room.
They had long reverb brums. They were tiled, and they put a microphone on one side and speaker.
On the other side, so you would let it go into that room and say, now you would send the signal through that room.
Out and get the at the other end of the Yeah, and give it that all hallway. If that's pretty cool.
And Capitol Records in California still has all those rooms, really yeah, and they ran them out to you. If you want to put it on a record, you can. That's pretty their vocal room.
Yeah, that's cool.
And then I my brother had a guitar, so like eight or nine years old. He never played it, but I taught my soft chords and and my neighbor had a piano that I noodled on and so by you know, seventh grade, I was in playing in little bands and doing Battle of Bands and stuff, and by high school I was really I was in some great bands.
And do you remember any of the names of your mond.
Or I would be too embarrassed to say he was just doing covers? Were you just doing Marty Robin covers?
Or right? You know, we were doing rock and roll covers. But we would do you know, barmesvah and high school gigs and college goods, fraternity sororities. We were making serious jack good Yeah.
It was fun.
And then I stopped one to carry around a B three organ and guitars and stuff. And I was freshman year in high school. I got a hold of a billboard and I realized that, oh my god, most of these songs aren't written by the people who sing them. And I went, that's what I want to do. So I started writing songs.
Figuring out how to get here?
Yeah, yeah, How did you find out about Nashville? And how in the Nashville game? And did you want to write country song? Did you even know you wanted to?
I was down on Rush Street in Chicago and there was this record shop and it had was blaring stuff outside and I went in and I said, what is that? And uh, he said, Man, that's Carl Perkinson. What kind of music is these man's country Western music? And then he put out a Mel Tillis record and George Jones record early George Jones. And I left with like six or seven records in the other day, and that's what I was like, Okay, these tell stories, That's what I wanted. And at the same time as that whole folky thing going on in Chicago with you know, John Pride and all those casts, So there was the folky thing going on, and so I could have a rock and roll horn band and still do folk and still think about country.
Wow.
Yeah. When I came down here, I mean I did not like a lot of the country music that was.
On what was on Kenny Rogers.
Some of the Kenny Rodgers stuff later was okay, But I remember the first cu Man I went to, I was maybe twenty one or twenty two, and it was John Denver and you Olivia Newton John hosting. So I was, well, this is this is not what I'm thinking is But it took a while for the music industry to find itself and it's still.
Looking You don't say it's still it's still looking to but I got signed to cedar Wood, and so then I just learned how to write songs and had a hit or two and some records and stuff, and then before you know, your life's almost over.
Yeah.
So who were the who were like the big cats when you moved to town? Who were who was the guys?
Oh, Harlan Howard.
You're talking about specific So you're talking about songwriters.
Yeah, songwriters, Harlan Howard, Bobby Braddock, later was Don Schlitz, Dan Bob mcdilla.
Great, so great song. Right, Yeah, there's studs. What about artists? Who were the artists? Who were the artists.
When I started paying attention? It was Reba and George Straight and Randy Travis, which when it started getting pretty good and we had that was a good time in country music.
Okay, I think this is a.
Reba didn't write her own songs, George Straight didn't write his own songs, Randy Travis barely wrote whatever wrote a song. Conway tweety uh, John Anderson wrote some, but I would I mean, I could go get records on a Conway tweety on Reeb. I've had like a dozen riba cuts, which would be impossible on a person now. But yeah, Conway, John Anderson, paycheck, all those people on them road. Really, I heard the songs where I've turned down for commercials numerous times.
Really just because it was like a Viagra thing or something.
Yeah, it just wasn't the right thing. I wouldn't be against a commercial, but it was the wrong fit. Yeah. No, if it were a Viagra thing, I'd be all fair arounds of blue pill quare. I heard that driving in today.
Did you heard your own song on the radio?
Wow?
Good for you, man, that song has gotta still be pretty good. Yeah, it's got to. Man.
I was in Jimmy Kelly's restaurants that night and it's this guy Phil, who's an alcoholic in there. He just a drinking son of a gun. And he was in there and that night sipping water, and I said, Phil, what's going on? Phil? What's going on? He says, Man, I went ten rounds with Jose Quervo last night, and I quickly grabbed a couple of napkins and a pin and ran up to the upstairs bathroom and wrote first and choruses and stuff. Next day, I had Bethard and Marl nice. Yeah, we wrote it publish. Wanted us to where he didn't go ten rounds because that would be a lot of liquor, and wanted him and I take a ride home and all that stuff. But the weird so Garth cut that song. Oh I didn't know that. Casey and I went over and sang on it, and we're going, oh, this is because this was going to bring back Guarth's thing. We were got all goll ag We wanted him and sang on the record and uh. Then Garth calls us up and says, my buddy Tracy Bird needs a hit. He wants to cut this. Wow, Bethroom and I was just like this bird had it hit in a while, Yeah, but it was nowhere one for a couple of weeks. So yeah, that was it all worked. But it was like, so you never know what fade. The Garth thing could have not happened.
That's absolutely right, But I.
Still want to get paid for singing on the back of the others.
Have you not got? Have you not got paid?
Came out?
Yeah, pay me royalties.
From the back of that come on man, and me and Dan got caught a session feet me and Dan got called in to sing on what was going to be your first single, right oh yeah, And we were playing golf and Ladell Frank was was producing this record. And that's the time I was over at Carnival and Frank called me and goes, hey, man, your brother's got the song get being cut by so and so artists and we want you all to come in and sing the background vocals.
And we're like what.
So immediately left playing golf or I left playing golf and met you up here, was in golf clothes, saying we went to the studio and Frank and all these players were there.
The first time in like a real I don't even think I had a deal at this time.
I think I was still grinding and moving furniture and living on a house boat.
You were a real not fruity loop, real real.
And I uh we sang and I was.
Like, we even came up with a part.
We did.
We not only sang backgroud vocals. We came up, but we came up with it was even like and I still which maybe why they didn't cut that song that ended up not coming out because we had producer points at that.
We just blew this this old story. So Frank goes, man, these guys really like got something like this is a this is a thing, man, we need to make this more of a thing.
You know. We're like, yes, we're doing bell twins.
Yeah I forgot about that, and so uh yeah, the guys the artist started writing with track guys, and that was d I never got this. I never sing a song. Yeah yeah, I didn't even make that. I saw the track list.
I was like, it's not all, which is a lot, like a lot of stories in Nashville.
I guess that's kind of the.
One that got away, you know, the track guy thing.
It it hurt us caught a bit because it just made everything the same.
What do you mean made everything the same?
You know, you walk in the room, the guy brings up a little loopy thing or a little drum thing, and you're at one hundred and twelve beats them in and you're working at something. You go, man, this shouldn't be one hundred and twelve beats a minute. This shouldn't be so and so this needs to be three four. This needs to go from four to four to two flourid, or this needs to just stop playing it so loud, you know, let's just kind of let's figure out where this really wants to go. Maybe let's just record it on the iPhones.
Does that really cut into the way that you had grown the way you think?
Yeah? Yeah? And then and then there's the pressure of well, now I got to start putting instruments down on this thing. I need to change and I'm going I don't think he would have the right chords figured out, shit, So let's just ease into this thing. So there's always that was that pressure of Now I was a track guy, but I we'd get done the song and then we would build a track that night. Yeah yeah, and then I'd call in real musicians to take over stuff.
Yeah, you would.
But it's and there's some guys that are real good at it, but most of them I think it hurt us, has hurt us for ten twelve years.
There's some real bad ones too. Yeah yeah, yeah, that'll that'll put the brakes on.
And then you wind up with six eight guys on a song, you know, and or ten or twelve or ten or twelve.
It's happening in these days, dude, ten twelve, fourteen, fifteen, Yeah, folks on the too.
I'd say, you go ahead and do that. As long as I get my fifty percent, I don't care you put you to put twenty guys on there.
You just keep your video and everybody else half that other stuff. How did you, uh, what was your introductory to Eric?
Oh?
Oh god, I was so tired of people. Arthur Blanahara, who runs Eric's publishing now, was a song plugger at Sony. He says, man, I got a new guy you were going to love, and he is going to love you. And I remember it was a Friday and I'd had three or four young kids that week. Eric came into the room.
And I said, there's probably another young kid. At the time I had was twenty three two or something at church.
We're talking about Eric Church Ari Church.
And I said, man, I'm sorry, I'm so sick and tired of you young guys. I just I don't know if I can do today. And he was on time and everything, which is not his thing. And I said, man, play me what you're doing. Let's figure out what you're up to. And he played me a song called Lightning, and then he played me a song called Michael, and I got on my hands and knees, and I said, holy pho, you can gobble me. I said, holy crap, dude, whoa whoa, whoa whoa. And we just started writing and you kept writing every week. And after about six months it was like me and him be through a couple of other people, he was pretty much he knew what he was. But after writing with other people, because he hadn't co written with people, he really dialed in and figured out. It's like he said, one time, Okay, I figured out what you're supposed to do. Now we can break the rules, you know. And that's the truth you learn, You learn the how you learn the oh this is right, this is wrong, and then you go screw that. This did this is gonna have a bridge instead of another verse, that's gonna have it whatever? And uh man, he's he's a great writer.
Yeah, great writer.
Because of me. Yeah he wrote Michael and Lightning and a bunch of pink lines and that stuff by himself. And then yeah, it's like.
Holy yeah, what did that? Was it? A? Did the Carolina record come out before centers like me? Carolina has found.
Carolina second, I think second or third.
Maybe with centers like me before that sounds like me. I think was the first one. And that's the time that you got involved. Did you get involved in that one?
Yeah?
We do all the vocals in my house and did uh yeah, Yeah, I think I had. I had quite a few songs on that one.
Man. That's a that's a stable.
That song had these boots on there, and that's that's one of my favorite songs.
It's can you do it?
It's well written.
What's it out of?
I can't do it?
I know, I'm just trying to think I'll sing these boots.
Counted off many babe, roll didn't his name.
I'm trying to find chips and empty ste you played that d.
Yeah, counted off many babe. Plame road and half stains for jips and empties. These boots anyway, it goes on those save.
Time the head those constitute below and that was originally Chicago.
It's really Chicago.
I wanted because every every store.
There story is true except for the bull oh yeah.
Something.
Every song, every story in that song is true except for the more then I care can the more stupid things? And my post.
Myself anyway, I seen them do Washington do.
Walking out on you?
And what a great way like dot did you hit that hook?
All the way till they are?
Man was.
But ignore that if you would go by the records.
Downloaded, don't stream.
It, yeah yeah, go to itues. iTunes are still paying, is it? Yeah?
Music now, don't don't uh trouble this, don't Spotify. Listen to it. All right, there's a he's got a story and there's a picture with this story of you and some guys. Yeah, can you tell? Can you tell?
I can almost tell this story? I know, but I want to know what. I'm trying to make sure he knows what story you're talking.
I don't know if I do.
Okay, So the way you told me was you and some artists from your time. We're listening to some songs.
All right, all right, right, stop right there and just listen.
Ok So it was Waylon Jennings, Johnny Cash had been. There was Waylon Jennings. We were in playing him songs and back then, uh, as a publisher, you would play them the songs.
You got, email them, you're literally playing.
We would sit down with tape recorders and play them and sit down with guitars in a big conference room.
We would we would take.
Medicine to help everybody feel better and stuff.
Everybody, everybody was sick.
To everybody was everybody needed to.
Get that medicine in your bloodstream. They say, you crush it up and go.
You do that, you you blow it and and and uh we were all drunk.
And uh more medicine.
Mel Tillis was there, and I was there and a couple of other writers.
Now you're a publisher at this time.
I'm a song player publisher. Actually I was a general manager at that time.
But you're still writing though at not right and not.
I was still writing not you, and it actually got where I got getting pretty good cuts. So they were encouraging me to write some during the.
Dance were your own songs.
And never I never plugged my own songs never ever, ever, ever, not once, And that's probably what's wrong with me. I can't plug. I'm just not good at promoting my own crap. And so we got so we got rocked pretty hard. And so there's a picture of me and Mel Tillis and Whaling had the idea we couldn't lock ourselves out of the building because I couldn't find the key. So Whaling or Tillis had the idea of let's lean up against the front door so no one could come in.
So you're leaning with your five or six of us drunk, sleeping slash pass.
Sleeping past, passed out, and Dolly Denny came in, took a picture.
She came in the next morning through the back door. Starts to start with you, she snapped.
And then Bill Denny came in. That dude, He says, Man, go home, shower and get back here in an hour.
Did you yeah, showed back up?
You worked? Oh my gosh, you worked twelve sixteen hours a day back then. Really as a publisher. None of us leaving at five o'clock to usually started the serious work at six to seven o'clock.
Eight because everyone's getting done and coming in.
I wanted to me to hear songs at ten o'clock, twelve o'clock, one o'clock in the morning. They would, you know whatever. It was just a different Jack Clement who produced you know, Cash and all those kind of stuff. You would show up at his house which used to be over here off of Belmont and at one o'clock, two o'clock in the morning playing songs.
In the morning.
In the morning, Cash would be cutting at ten o'clock that morning, so you'd show up at one or two o'clock and he'd start picking songs for the session.
Wow. Yeah, is there any songs that you got like snuck in on a on a record or something like that by like going the extra mile, either showing up at two am or driving to wherever.
I still doing time, really, yeah, so still doing time. I had a verse on a chorus written, and so I wasn't writing in there. So John Moffett was one of our writers. I said, may I write a couple of verses for the second verse, and he did, and we did a quick little demo that night, and Billy Cherro, who was pretty George Jones hated my boss. He hated my boss's boss, who was Jim Denny, who were in the opry. He just it was just a bad thing. And he told me one time, I'll never ever, ever ever record a Seaterwood song. He goes, you can get on your hands and knees and beg me, I won't do it. So Larry Lee, who was a Seedywood song plugger at the time, got the police and Billy Sheryl used to come out about three o'clock and smoke something right out in front of the office in between his sessions, and he knew Billy would be out there, and he got the police to stop traffic, and he and I crawled across the street.
Begged him no way and hand him.
The tape and he took it. He says, I'm not cutting anything, blah blah blah, and we got him walk across and he called about twenty minutes later, he goes, I'm gonna cut this.
Wow.
So he cut it the next night, and he brought Larry and I in to hear it, and Jones's vocals he's drunkish. They took him about four months to go to vocal.
But that was that the case with all his stuff.
I don't know all it was the case with that one. I know that he wouldn't do the vocal on He stopped loving her today because he hated that song. He's called it that morbid son of a buddy. Buddy Verdick told me he got Jones hated that and the good thing about those days, Braddock wrote, he stopped loving her today and Cheryl says, man, you need to fix this line, Billy, Cheryl, this line is not right or this isn't grabbing me or this is I mean, they would really produces back then, and Billy shover at tons of big hits too, but they'd say, dude, I'll cut this if you can get the second verse right. So yeah, they would dig in, they would know. Yeah, they would like, man, come on, and Braddick told me they did three or four different rights that right to get it right. And it's because of Billy Cheryl that kept working hard.
On I would say, Man, as far as like mom, Mount Rushmore country singers, he's George Jones is on there. George Jones brilliant just in the.
Way that you could feel, Yeah, he's got to be on there.
Well for me personally, Yeah, Haggard is a good one him, Haggard, uh Man, Mount Rushmore.
That's tough. Man. If I someone asked me last week if I could sing like anybody, I would say I would want to sing like Joe Cocker meets Vince Gill.
Oh yeah, I.
Want to be I would Yeah, tough, but smooth man, you have that smooth Yeah amazing, But Joe Cocker you feel every word.
Yeah for sure. Man, I'm gonna listen to him on the way out of town today.
Yeah, he's a good one.
Who do you listen to if you're riding down the road.
I listened to it's the old time radio station w M Nashicon. Yeah, yeah, I'll listen to that.
If you've got advice for a young songwriter in this town, in this in this day in time, which you've you've given me and Dan, probably the same advice that you're about to.
I would say, finish college, get into programming computers.
Don't don't try to run.
Marry a girl from Peoria or wherever you're from, and knowing even because you're gonna have a hard time making a living in but if you have to do it, come on down. If you have to write a song, come on down. If you're compelled, if it's in your gut, you gotta do it. I've been sick for a couple of years, but I'm down, like back, so the and I thought I thought I was going to retire.
I think you're back. Though you were good.
I thought I was going to retire, And about two three months ago I cranked up the studio and I went all right, and I've slowly been Oh that's pretty good, that's great, that's good, you know, getting bad, like all right, I think I'm gonna roll again. But it's because I feel like sometimes the days I have to you know, and some days you go, what's the point? Some well, because you may have to get this out of you, you know, that's all you know. I come down and dude, if you if you have to do it, if you think it's going to be an easy ride, if you think, if you're a living room star wherever you're from, stay there, man.
A living room star.
Tell me the story on this one Monday morning.
I did not, Man, I were we we're good out ci.
My boss something boss over time.
Oh I got drinking. I'm about this ottail five.
All you gotta do is.
Pulled off.
Out. We were in Luke Lair and I were on a riding trip, uh I think with Miranda. No, yeah, Miranda. And then we transferred over to Eric and we were in South or North Dakota.
Are you just hoped buses?
Yeah?
Oh nice?
But I mean he was playing, yeah, it was playing playing. We wrote a killer song with Miranda. My god, that's never seen a light today. May anyway, it was so cold, it was minus thirty degrees. Where were you somewhere in North or South Dakota. Good and that was a pretty heavy smoker at the time. Yeah, I invented it. I we just went through stage four lung cancer. Pretty I'm doing great. My oncology guys say, we were so bad, we're going to try two chemos on you at the same time, which they now found out is a thing they can do and you can still live.
So you invented that too.
I went through all that. I invented that.
Cancer and the cure, and.
I had a great Anyway, It's been a fun trip. But we were up there. I was outside having to have a cigarette, and Eric had come back, and these fans were just like it was so cold, and the show was like rocking. I'm thinking, how are these people doing it? And we said, Eric, what's the deal? How can they do that? You haven't you haven't had a hit yet? Really?
Oh really?
Yeah? I mean he had a couple of you know, radio dud things, you know. Yeah, but there was you know, four thousand people, there wasn't. He was the opening act for someone and smoke their asses and he said, man, all I got to just put rick in your hand and I started going. Luke started guarantee, and we had it written, you know, like an hour and a half or something. Geez, it was about one o'clock in the morning. We do a work tape on it.
It's still a monster.
See that's a good that's a fun song.
They all are you put that? I mean you turn on the radio, odds all you're going to hear that?
Do?
Yeah?
That that that's a good song.
Yeah it is, yeah, you know.
And if you do come to Nashville, Connor writes some stupid songs like ten Rounds and that some other other songs.
Yeah, yeah, because they.
Keep playing them on Friday and Saturday nights. People people want to rock and roll and party.
Yeah, they do, you know they do. Do you feel like that is kind of missing in today's music or do you feel I'm still around.
No, it's missing big time.
Yeah.
And when they do have it out, it's silly. Yeah, they're not real well written.
Pull.
You know. It's like, come on, put put some stories behind it. Ten rounds, head stories behind it, drinking my hands and got stories behind put different where it's like everybody can get into one part of it anyway without it. Yeah, I don't know.
Come this is a music podcast, but it's also a hunting podcast. Have you ever done any hunting? Fish?
I used to hunt?
Wait for real?
What?
Yeah?
What do you mean?
What?
What?
This is actually like a joke because I thought we were just go tak about using the whole time, cause I thought you never hunted?
No, what did? I would dove hunt and uh I would pheasant hunt, and I went deer hunting a couple of times. But the problem was it was down.
There, ain't no way.
I don't like it that part. Uh I tried turkey one time. Yeah, forget that.
You don't you get wow?
Yeah, this is what you.
Don't get crap and you gotta and you get ticks and you're.
Like, how your cats do? My catheters?
No, I haven't had a catheter for bro.
Your cat was like thirty years old last time I saw remember Roxy? Yeah?
Is Roxy still rocking?
She is sixteen. I had a guest down from Chicago this weekend and we stayed at the Nashville house. And she's mean as hell. She's she still loves me and earning the dog. But that's the last of my cats. Now, Susan's got fore cats, but they're not really like they're not really like at cats somewhere like I'm gonna go hide. They're not like, yeah you know, let's beat you up or love you or yeah you know in the winter, she cleans my beard and stuff. You know how he turned turn at four? Man, he's he's doing all right. He's four. He's a great little dove.
That's awesome.
Smart man, he's so smart it's ridiculous. I bet she's smarter than your kids.
Probably says, what kind of dog?
Is he? A blue healer? You're a healer, guy.
That's the only kind of dog I have.
Yeah, you're a healer, a blue healer.
If you can get past their stubbornness and they're screw you, they're just the best dog. They exactly are. Like it there just fruity. How you doing back there? You gotta go pee it. It's been in an hour.
You get to our age.
You get to our age, you go, I think I need to stop, find a place to pee, or I gotta get I gotta get the I gotta get the blood going on my legs something.
I'm sure that was.
The portant, that thing you had to say, But it's that time of the show for the one that guy, oh, the one that got away.
I can truly say I've never had one getaway. I don't think I've ever had one getaway.
You just called them all.
Oh, but if it wasn't supposed to happen, it didn't happen.
You know that you have ringing a full circle there.
You know you have those songs there sound Hole and all ship. No, it's not What does that mean? It's nothing?
Oh, it's cut.
We gotta cut. I had a John Anderson cut one time, called Blue Skies Again, and it was the title of the album. And he called me up and said, man, this is my first single. And Jimmy Bowen called up, dude, you ought to hear this. This is a single. Never was a single title of the album, so I could say that's someone that got away, but hey, it's on the album. You know, you just can't.
I like, if it wasn't supposed to happen, it wasn't spposed to happen.
This one might be the one that got away.
We can play this because he was a lot.
Since he he's not gonna sing, I want to just let him sing on this one. He wrote this about man raide. Oh yeah, now, there's own kinds of legends on music.
You can see the album to this over great.
Songs that hit people's heart, sing and suit that guy's got bored. But the newest big bulls on the music scene, you know all the week as of.
Dan and read Yeah it is a Bell Twins. You're like to kids with the good ain't the things don't stay?
Steve? Why the Renteri songs are like taple bata Because you're right?
What you know when the shore no.
Song now shooting little baddess killing turkeys, big.
Ticks on their balls and squirrel Jerky's.
Came a flyer. So what's hard to see?
Am? So we got a little car.
For these Field twins.
They got away the damn I'll tell you what that probably should have been hit right, So, I.
Mean, first off, we're not twins. I'm four years old.
Yeah, but I think right there, that's a master.
You know whose favorite song that is of all time? Who comes Well, I tell you what, let's do this.
Then let's take.
That track I like it, and let's uh right south for my mind, he says all the time.
I'm like, it's got to plays it all the time. And he's like it's got a great groove. It's got a great groove. D Did you break that track?
Yeah?
Oh? Nice? Nice?
He played everything on there, and he's.
Like, dude, why don't you want me to play this? I was like, because you play it all the time. He plays it all the time. And he's like, literally, a legend wrote a song about you and your brother, and you don't want me to play I was like, I'm not saying that. He's not alleged.
All right, let's think of a good thing to write with him and we'll put that. I'm sure I got that track somewhere.
Did you see what he's doing here? Yeah, he's smelly stepping in. What's the other thing we do?
Favorite song?
Oh yeah, great.
Written songs, Grave grave written song that I think songs are great, greatest slash favorite country me the song.
I think I think I already mentioned, but he stopped loving her today. Good old boys like me. He's a great one. House that built me. A's a brilliant Jesus take the wheels a brilliance.
O man, Peter is coming. Yeah, those are all good boys. Let me start.
Heaven and seven.
That didn't help me? What's the words?
What do you do with good old balls like me, good old bulls man. Yeah, I don't like seainwood Ship. I used to know. I used to in the Brilliance. And if you're gonna move down her. You want to write songs, you need to do your homework. Do your freaking homework. Study how great songs are written, why they were, how to set up a damn hooks. You don't waste our damn.
Some some writers they should, they should check out before they come down here.
Those we mentioned all those and Don Schlisz, yeah you know, Casey Bethard h and all those guys. Just learned their stuff. Don't copy it. Learn how to set up songs, set up a hook, set up a goddam don't be stupid.
Let me ask you this, what did you what's your first impression of Read when you had him in the room.
I was a goofy. I liked him. Yeah, he needs.
One of the reasons I I started smoking cigarettes when when I was in town because I thought I had to be like to be cool, and I literally would.
I would.
I don't smoke anymore, but I would. He would always stay after rights and just sit in the fire and smoke and just sit there.
When's the last time you had a cigarette?
Hey? I had one on Susan's dad died about six weeks ago. Eight weeks ago, I went and bought a pack, and I wasn't It was awful, really awful. It was terrible because I bought a pack of Ultra lis instead of reds.
Oh yeah, and you were you were a cowboy killer.
She had a couple of three and I had a couple three and that was it.
We were.
I would pay ten dollars for a red right.
Now, me and he and were sitting in the fire hall. We just got done right one day and we were sitting in the fire all smoking cigarette on the couch, and we've probably been there for an hour and a half, maybe two hours, just smoking and talking and talking life and stuff.
I was really writing down titles the things you would say. Man, that's a pretty good idea.
I'm going to put that right here now.
Now we got iPhones, let me check somebody.
That couch.
That couch, the secrets.
That couch is on the wall looking at another wall with a couple of rooms and there's a little small room. They called it room four back then. They've they've redone it now. It's a big room. And we were sitting there. We've been there for two hours, room for oh yeah, it's all room too now and back there across the ba whoa. So we're sitting there and all of a sudden the door handle starts jiggling from the inside like we're like, what in the We've been there for hours, And all of a sudden, this door swings open and walks out. Bill Anderson lights off everything. Bill Anderson comes out and he goes, he's got a red track. You remember this. He got on a red track, and I think he had a man got like a make America great have you know? And he walks out and he stretched. He goes.
Like that.
We're just sitting there like and I've never said I'm never That's the first I've ever seen whisper Bill. And I was like, oh my goodness. And then he goes, well, Bill, how long you've been in there? Bill goes, oh, man, he said, I gotta work tonight. I gotta go down and host the opera. He said, I come over here and take me a little a little nap.
I've taken many a map in the state of.
The Night in that room, I get that.
That's the darkest room. Was the darkest room, was the darkest room.
Couch and a pretty decent couch.
Yeah, I hadn't been the fire hall years and years.
Okay, just before we get out of here, just before we go, tell us clean up the story. That's that's runs the Rose Daily about you. Okay, we won't say artist's name.
Oh yeah, that's so clean.
It literally runs up and with the pure version to make sure that we're not telling it incorrect.
It was one of the first stories I heard on the row, and it will it will outlive me, So.
Give us the true rundown.
This guy's producer call me up. I said, would you get with Michael White and work with this artist? We're doing Engus and I need a radio hit. I've got to have a hit. I know you two guys can write a hit. Sure, okay, And he sent me a couple of things of what this guy was doing. Oh wow, we've got some stuff to do. So we we got there. This guy's about two hours late. Michael and I started writing rocking up tempo, kind of like a drinking my hand kind of thing. And he gets there. This kid goes, uh uh uh.
Now now walks in two hours late and then.
Two hours late goes, Now that's the I it. I want to write a song about my uncle who's in Julie at prison. He molested his knees or some kind of thing like that and got busted for cocaine and all this kind. I want to write a song. He goes, I write songs about real life. He says, I'm like Johnny Cash. And I said, I've heard your stuff and you're not talking Johnny Cash, and you need to get the out of here. So the producer calls me up.
Wait, wait, wait, there's a lot of left there's a lot of things left to discuss here. So does he get out? Does he get out?
No? I wound up getting out.
You got it.
I we sat and talked, because man, it's important. I write about what's real. It's important. I said, this is gonna get on the radio. I promise we'd get something, write something that we can get on the radio. I'm not doing any horror stuff. I'm not saying, dude, it doesn't have to be. There's great songs on the radio that are commercial. Sure. Anyway, So I packed up in life. Okay, that's the real that's the realtive.
Never let the truth getting away.
Have a good story, no.
See Irish Irish shiss and uh. This guy went on to have a couple of hits and I don't think that he ever sang about his uncle and Juliet. I want to write what's real? I want to write kid God, Yeah, who cares about your uncle? Oh?
Man, we could sit here and do it all day.
We could do it all day.
Hey, you're you're truly, You're truly one of my favorite people on the planet.
Man, thanks for taking an interest in a couple of well just.
Here with the twins. Man, I would walk, oh gosh, one hundred miles by.
Would walk one hundred miles about just to be with And today we're to welcome.
And this is gonna be the sing in the section. Hey, we got a legend. His name is Michael Haney.
Thanks for being a friend.
We love you, dude. I'm glad you're doing great. I'm glad you're back.
Michael p Andy P for perfect.
Things are hanging out, guys, got you P for punctuality. We'll see all next time.