Lauren Tomlin, wife of Chris Tomlin - renowned Christian artist, speaks her truth and drops wisdom about what it really means to see, feel, hear, and trust God in all aspects of life. She opens up about how inviting God into relationships brings about peace and divinity. She encourages us to turn to God when we feel inadequate and ask Him two questions:
• Would you tell me how much you love me?
• Would you tell me how you see me?
Lauren assures us that we all have a part to play in bringing love and beauty to this life. By walking our path, hand-in-hand with God, we will ultimately fulfill our purpose here on Earth.
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Carola, she's a queen. She's getting not afraid to feel just let flow. No one can with Caral. This sounds ca Okay. I'm pumped because I have Lauren problem with me. Who This is such a treat for me because Lauren, every time I see you, which I've seen you at all sorts of great events where it's all about soul meaning and Bible studies and and I want to start by saying a lot of like church stuff gets a bad rap because I've always felt that way, like, oh my gosh, here comes someone deep immersed in the church. They're going to tell me all these rules I have to follow. I'm gonna feel judged, like I'm gonna feel like if I all my sins are showing right well because of our experience. Yes, and so, and I've you're married to Chris Tomlin. He's like probably one of the biggest, if not the biggest Christian singers like worldwide. I mean, he's got a heavy, heavy resume and like a big title, which is probably a lot of pressure, but also it's just who he is. It's obviously his calling. He's stepped into this and he's like blessing the world with his music. But that's a lot of responsibility too, because everyone looks to you, guys, is like the answer, Like you guys must know everything. You have this direct contact with God. You know, it's funny you say that. I don't know people look to me, but I think it's something he probably feels, definitely when you're carrying a message that has weight like that, and especially worldwide. I mean the songs. I mean, he never imagined when he wrote how Great is Our God? It's a song that people sing in church. He wrote in his apartment, like it was just the kind of a place where he was in his heart. He never imagined that it would literally cross the globe. Is that God just like using people? Because like, is that what Chris? Is that what happened to him? Like he just started following that he didn't And what's crazy is he's the least of unlikely. He didn't go to Belmont, small town, Grand Selene, Texas. I'm Texas, Yeah you are. Everybody from Texas is the best. Oh, everybody's from Texas. He's friendly. Like that's the way I see it. I'm like the best, but literally he's from the small town. He was the least likely you know, it wasn't like he was in the Voice lessons. You know, he grew up on Willie Nelson. He got mono and his dad handed him the guitar and then that kind of set him on the path. But when he started writing those songs, there wasn't necessarily worship being sung in the churches. It was just more so he kind of started worship music. He he was in a path. It was kind of happening in Australia and it was kind of popping up. But it was kind of this ground swell. He started that news John it was starting. Yes, so he wasn't okay, I didn't even realize that that's a big deal, I know. So it was kind of like there was hymnals and then he just started toying around making it like his couch. Yeah, he was just like his where his heart was, I mean his he was going to be a physical therapist, but really felt this this call to throw everything in his forerunner and go for it. So he started singing at camps and then one thing led to another church camps. Yes, did he grow up commercially. Also went around with his cowboy and would get in this huge you know double wide carrying horses. I believe. So he was a cowboy. Well he would go around with this guy who would then lead, lead and speak to cowboys like cowboy church, something like yes, something like that. I just this is this is so weird you're talking about cowboy Church. I just watched this whole thing on this guy who does cowboy Church, and it's like, it's like this great way to connect with people, men who aren't like this left he let's like, you know, they need a little bit more earth the explanation of God. So he was so he would have kind of he was like, he has a love for horses, So he was doing all of this before it just kind of all started started moving forward. Did he always labels and more the business side, if that makes sense? Okay? Did he always have a strong connection to God? Yes? I think I think a surrendered heart. Was that like upbringing or is that just the way he is? I think it's the way he is. He was very much in the culture of church. I mean a lot of people can be in the church culture. I mean, you know, like you said, sometimes God is very misrepresented in church culture. And that was the thing that turned me off for a while I grew up in the church, but then Episcopalian, and then I kind of dove strong into like all the youth groups, all the things, and then I kind of got lost in all the rules, and then it kind of started making me feel like claustrophobic. And then I was like, this isn't all totally aligned with me, and and I tried to like leave for a while, and I in my own like teenage early college years, I was like, I'm just I don't know about God, you know, I don't know if I question it, But I'm so glad I went through the whole process of really finding my own relationship to the part of God versus the rules and so much of what man can make it is. I think when you live for God and with God, there is a desire to be free in him. Like it's not about the rules. It's really about when you know him. There's an overflow of freedom. And those things in the Bible, they actually are there as guardrails. So it's not saying you throw out scriptures. But man focuses so much on the rules whatever, no dancing, no this, no that, and not knowing him and they're being freedom And then when you only know the rules and you don't have the personal relationship because you've the rules, it's then you feel like God's actually this related like harsh, not person because you're entity, because you're like God, do anything wrong, God's mad at me. And I feel like that is the problem that I have always struggled with with strong, strong, strong, like Christianity or anyone who's strong into like a religion, because it's like all of a sudden, it's like, oh my gosh, if I'm not doing these rules right, then I can't be a good Christian. But really, and that's what you're all about. And Chris is hearing God and feeling God and having that relationship with that. And actually was listening to your podcast with Lauren Aikin Atkins. Always say your name from Atkins Thomas Rhett's wife and y'all are like great friends. And her podcast Live in Love, which is such an amazing podcast. Lauren is incredible, and she was talking about that how like she grew up in the church with all the stuff, but it took her a long time to have her own personal with you when she had you on the podcast, her own personal relationship, intimate, hearing God, feeling God and having him speak to her. And I feel like a lot of people don't know how to do that. We're not at large taught that it is is something in a out of church circles. It's like you have the scriptures, now go do it versus operating out of a place of relationship, which I really only learned until my mid twenties. But it literally changed the entire trajectory of my life when I when I know we gotta break it down. When when I started walking down that path, and it goes to back to what you were saying. You know, so many people live from the rules, which is condemnation. You're not enough, you know, you're worthless. Whatever it is when God's mad at you, if you say, but the heart of God really is he wants to affirm his sons and daughters. I mean, if Sonny were to throw herself on your leg, what would you say to her? And if she said, tell me how you see me, tell me how much you love me? Just perfect? I love you. You're amazing. You're here for a purpose. I just wanted to speak over. You're here for a purpose. You are all things good and joy and love and light, in the world like you are blessed and protected and full of abundant and blessings. So exactly so, but many of us don't relate to God that way. That if we were actually like throw ourselves on his leg and say tell me what you think of me, we would think of so many other things except what you just said exactly like I'm not good enough, I failed here, I feel inadequate, I'm not worthy, I am not Like, yes, we go through our art and that goes back to self talk to like I didn't realize I think all this kind of goes hand in hand. I had terrible self talk for a long time. Like my self talk was like telling me how bad I was, telling me I wasn't good enough, telling me other people were better, and staying in those thoughts. So it's like, yes, I was like a happy, positive person to the world, but like in my head, I was just like, you're not good enough, you're inadequate, and you're probably striving, so you're probably happy. But I imagine there was a lot of striving versus resting and who you are no resting, I don't know who I was right, So that how that is how it changed the whole trajectory for me was in going to him and saying, God, would you tell me how you see me? How did you even know to think to ask that? So I went on this retreat and that's before I want to make this. First was in Chick Fila in their marketing department was doing that is the greatest? Do you still so they're as good as we think. Oh they're incredible people, incredible brand. And I mean the sandwiches. Yeah. I went to McDonald's and try their chicken sandwich and I was like, this is this is no, it's a secret sauce. He has a patented yes, but it's the chicken sandwiches too, But it is a sauce. That is what they fry it in. It's secret. There's something to it. We buy the Chick fil A sauce? Oh oh what they fry the chicken? It is a there's something and maybe there's like crack lasning there must love me. Okay, so you're in marketing at Chick fil A doing that deal and very this way, just a little bit I have I don't have a professional set up at all, but I'm trying to record and everyone need to see Lauren's face because it's so beautiful. Yeah, so we were very much. I was very much in that in that corporate world and was doing the thing and Chick fil A was amazing, but I also knew that something was missing, like from Atlanta. So I was very much doing my dream job, but yet in my heart, I wasn't fully fulfilled because he was calling me or whispering on a different direction. And that's where it starts, is like, and I feel like that's what now I have noticed is when you are in life doing something but you feel like there's something else you're supposed to be doing right or just yes, it's whispers like like calling. I like to say it's a calling because there's this like it oftentimes comes with things not working out the way you want, or the things that you're experiencing they aren't the way you dream they would be. I mean, your marriage isn't where you had hoped it would be, or your career or where you're living. You know, those those whispers, it's like an invitation, but a lot of times we want to ignore those whispers, which is change. This is going to mess everything. It's risk, Like I got a job going here and making money, sarried, everything seems fine, but I'm not content because there's something that I know I need to do. But that's a bunch of lies. I'm not gonna listen to it because that's just my mind. I'm going to ignore it. Was what we try to tell ourselves. But really that's God whispering yes. And we all know that feeling because like you're so passionate, like your slogan is like how do you hear God? Basically? Right, like you're all about hearing God and feeling God having a relationship, and so this is where it starts. Like because I like to give people like what's a tangible, step by step things? How can you start this process of hearing God? How would you describe this whisper part, the whisper heart part. It's it's from in knowing him and having a relation ship with him. There is just the still small voice, and it's one of those things. The more you hear it and the more you respond, the more that voice is strengthened. So like if I were to meet you in this huge crowd and and I called your name, you went, let's just say you had just met me, you wouldn't recognize, oh that's Lauren. But after you and I had talked and we'd become best friends, you would say, oh that's Lauren. Where's Lauren? Right, you'd be looking around. I hear a voice. Same thing with God. The more you come to hear it and respond, you can recognize it more and more. So you start with the small questions. You don't start with do I move or you know, is this who I should marry? You start with God, tell me how you love me, tell you tell me how you see me. Okay, So how did you get to that where you knew to ask this question? Well, it was very much from one of my favorite authors. His name's John Eldredge. He has a whole book and a study which we talked about with Lauren and they did the study. Actually I know she said, like Thomas Rhett and her we're coming over to your house and you were like speaking life into them. Well that's yeah. So on the side, I do no, no, not that. But on the side, I love to pray with people so they can hear. So you kind of take someone through their story and if they're stuck, it's a way to allow Jesus to come in and speak to kind of remove me. I mean, yeah, anytime, girl, I've got my little study at the house, Come on over any time, Okay, any time, okay, and God, like, can you can hear God? Right? Yes, I mean anyone can any time. Right. But but sometimes there's things in the way, and so I very much can help facilitate removing what It's not necessarily that I'm removing it. It's helping people name what's in the way, and then we pray to allow God to remove it. So typically it's false beliefs. Back to what you said with self talk, when we believe lies or things that aren't true about ourselves. And this could be based on your childhood stories, your what your life situations, what you're born into. You create these stories about yourself and they're literally lies that come at the very beauty of your life. And here's what I love most that that John Aldridge talks about is that where you're wounded is actually the very place your glory lies. Meaning the very place Cara Hobby brings life and God's love and light to this earth is a very place you've been taken out. And the same with me. So whenever I meet with people, you will find that there is very much a all effort attack on that person to not bring the beauty of God, because really there is the enemy. I mean he he very much is jealous of God and his glory. He didn't win, and so now he tries to come after man and woman who bear his image in the very place they bring the most life. And we live in this world that's a dual world. Everything is opposite. You've got your good, your evil, your your trauma, your joy, you're it's like we live in it's a world. We live in a very broken, split world both every day, and I feel like so many of us try to block out the bad and just ignore it and like, act, I guess not there, but really you have to look at it, you have to feel it, you have to bring God into it. And so many of us are like, oh, I don't want to. I just interviewed Ian Cron who wrote, oh I can't even fathom. Yeah, it was, oh my gosh, the Instagram back to your road, back to you, and then he just has a new one called The Story of You, which is telling you the lies of your Instagram number. It's amazing, um, but it's all about like we have to figure out who we really are. And you have to bring God into it. You have to bring light into it, and you have to own it. And so the most simple way to do that before your feet hit the bed. Get it before your feet hit the floor, when you're in bed, God, tell me how much you love me? Would you tell me how you see me? And so the simple things that he will say and you hear him, you it's an impression, you feel it. It's it can either be a word, it can be a symbol. It could be a song, it could be a memory. It just comes to you. Yes, and you want to you can journal it. That might be a great way to start, just because that might be hard to learn that voice. But over time he will affirm and bring confirmation. So you can ask for that. If what you hear you doubt, you say, God, would you make this confirmation? Like and so what does the confirmation mean? You like hear it to be shocked at some of the stories, like do you think to yourself, this is just a coincidence, I'm making this so No, they're so they're so outlandishly lavish. O. Yes, Like I was just on a phone call with a bunch of high school ors. It was like a interview of one of my good friends, and she talked about how she put on fifty pounds and she was turning forty I think, and it was really hard for and so she was like, you know, on my birthday, I went on the back porch and I was just like, God, tell me how seeming, And he was like, you're lovely. And literally five minutes later she received in her heart, but she kind of dismissed it. The doorbell ring and her best friend had dropped off a card and it said you are lovely. I know. Yeah, I have a story too. When Chris and I were very much in a place of transition, very much risk involved. So a lot of times, you know, from the outside, it looks like, oh, these people just firing all cylinders and like everything, yeah, everything comes to them and they just sit back. I mean, there really is a nuance to making calls and decisions and changes like as you grow in your career. So we were in this position of really making some huge shifts, and so it was risky, like everything was on the line, and we were believing God for it was very much feeling called to do it. We were just feeling very lead that, like it was a big shift. Yes, it was a big shift of shifting where we lived. Every thing was changing. Yes, people involved, It was just a shift. And you're probably gonna like kiss some people off because yes, yes that because it was a shift, and so it was interesting. So I get I'm like scrolling through Instagram and this is years ago, but I see this screenshot and it says something like a camera, you know, a Toyota cameras made in like six hours, and a Bentley it takes seven months. So I screenshot that and I send that to Chris, and I'm like, it's worth going the distance, you know, kind of believing God, this isn't gonna happen in a day. Rome was not built in a day. Okay, So later that day we've got to go to whole feuds in Franklin. You know, Offman, this is not Lennox Small, this is not Highland Park, Texas. Okay, this is Franklin, which is like pickup trucks and tahoes and suburbans, and so like we have to drop off the girls and do a switch up. And so I am following him and then all of a sudden, a bright blue bit like cuts me off and pulls right in front of me. And I was speechless because you don't see Bentley's, especially a bright blue one. You're right, and I'm just sitting there like this was confirmation of God just being like I'm with you, like I'm with you, guys, like trust me with the risk, like you didn't, you didn't miss me on this. Like that gives you probably such a piece to move forward because now you were listening to God, you felt like God was directing you to do this. Then you got that sign that said, you know, Bentley takes seven months to build, and like that resonated with you right now. Two hours later you see an actual Bentley, so confirmation, and that's when people can rely on these confirmations from God and feel like strong in them because you have been in communication with God and you're listening for him to speak to you. It's not like a coincidence like I was saying, or wishful thinking. It's like these are deliberate things that were on your heart that are being validated exactly. And what's even more core than decisions is coming to know who you really are, and that's hard to do. That is that is hard to do. It takes Like the first half of my life, I had no idea who I was. I kind of knew what I was interested in, and I knew like who I was and wanted to be and how I wanted to present myself to the world, But like I didn't feel rock solid in that. No. So that's what's amazing is he knows who he made you to be, right, he knows the glory and the beauty of your life. And what I love about Jesus was he renamed his disciples, I mean Peter. He named Peter the Rock, which he was the weakest character of all the disciples, but he renamed him so he was like, I see you for who you really are. Like, sure, I see all these Shenanigans of your weakness, but this is who you really are. You are the Rock, and I will build the whole church on you, like you are the one character that is foundational to the church. Why was he the rock? What he named him? He saw him for who he was, and then did Peter live into it? And so he does the same with us, Like regardless of what's happened in our story, he speaks to us and gives us a name or a word or a symbol, And there's many that I have some like I could openly share some I feel like, you know, I'm not gonna go around and being like hi, Like God has given to you, yes, other names of characters in the Bible to share some that you're willing to share, I'm willing to share you. There's one in particular, Esther, which I know everybody probably eye rolls at this point, they're like, we've heard about her. But it was significant because when I married Chris, he was very much established in his career. He was very much which that's hard. You're coming in obviously you're a badass in your own right and you're like incredible, but like he is like superstar at this point, he was like start with him. I was in accessory, so I did. I was hard to walk into that. No, when your ground floor you're building it, you're like eating Ramen noodles like you're doing it, and you're like, yeah, you feel just as much as a part of it as yeah, because you were there for every higher and fire and every decision. Now when you're coming in on the tail end, that is a different situation. And so God was very much working through us. We were he was late thirties, I was early thirties, and in our marriage there was a dismantling so where we came into it thinking, oh my gosh, we found our person and it's gonna be like, you know, sunsets forever. It was like the house went up on fire, literally, and that's not what you think is gonna happen when you're falling in love and getting married. No, you're like, we were chating. We are differences, you know, how we approached everything. We were coming from opposite extremes and we had no clue. And so because the love was just so strong that like you you dove in. Well, there was a circumstance where we broke up and then we got back together, and so it was called it. Yeah, I called it. We talked about time outs being very valuable. Yeah, Laurence, like, listen, I don't feel like you're on the same page as me or whatever. It was. Yeah, it was more of like this conversation of Hey, I want to know your heart and if it's just us and what we're doing and where we're flying and you know, awards shows like I'm in it for the person and so that didn't really shift. I think really he didn't know he wanted to marry me, and I think it was not that I was asking for marriage, but I was asking for more than where he was, and so that I just said, if things don't change, I'm out. And then he came chasing after you, and you still were out. Oh yeah, And I was almost engaged as somebody, like literally, so you weren't just like I'm out, but he was like down to almost boarding the plane, and he didn't board the plane to propose. Things fell out with us and then literally Chris circle was circling. But you're dating someone else, about to marry someone else. Oh yeah, Literally the family ring had been shifted. I mean it was that. I know it was you say, you're you do things through the eleventh hour. I'm the Chris cause the hammer. I read this inter and he's like, Lauren's the hammer. She makes me get like the information out because he wants to like stuff it, and you're like, we're going to talk about this, right, I'm a hammer too, But I'm also like I'll wait till that. Now I can trust my instincts and got more in God because I've so many times where God's like yelled at me and like shut me down, but like, yes, I'm the same way. Once I like feel it and hear it and know it, it's like that's it, right, Yeah, So basically we'll force it out of you. So we we were very much in this position where I wanted to dress everything, I wanted to talk about everything. He wanted to stuff everything. And literally he just toured his whole life and run really hard. So he never looked back. He had never looked back at family of origin. He had never looked back at the implications. And fortunately I had done a little more work at that point because my family had gone through their own crisis, my parents marriage, they fought for it, worked through so much, but it helped expedite me on kind of seeing the brokenness in my family. So we enter into this and like he's just thinking he's going to do life as normal, and it was like definitely a collision of our styles of relating. And I'm like, where did the guy go? He was in the office or on the golf course, because he would just disappear. Oh yeah, He's like I'm not because he was with the late thirties doing his own thing, and he and I wanted to talk about it, and he didn't want to talk about it. He's like, listen, the day started, the day is for me, and I gotta go do what I gotta do, and I'm not necessarily going to check in with you because he wasn't used to that, and we were very much at a point where we did not like each other. And that's putting it kindly. And you're also married, so you're stuck. We're yeah, well, and we're both secretly we laugh now because it's hilarious, but we both were like, what do we do? I think you We're sharing all this because I think people need to hear these things because we all have hit moments. You can love your person more than anything in the world, know they're the greatest, but when you're married to someone, it still can be like there's moments where like oh shit, yeah, especially when they're bringing you to the end of yourself. And so see, my style of relating was control, let's talk about everything, and his was running. And so essentially what happened was God intervened with me, with you, with me first before he could deal with him, and he said, you're esther, which Esther is this character in the Bible, and essentially she's married to the king and instead of hitting him over hitting him over the head with a frying pan to discuss the fact that she has her people that need to be saved, she makes him a meal. And the first meal she doesn't make her request. So you can imagine she makes him the meal. I'm sure they make love. It's the whole thing. She's buttering him up. Yeah, it's the second meal, like again, and then she makes her request, and so it's not manipulation. Presentation is everything. What it is saying is love. It's like to be in a position to make and at that point, and it's not manipulation because you're saying I'm going to love you. I'm going to show you that I love you and shower you with love, and then I'm gonna gently It was finding my place with God. You're right to be free to love. So I had to forgive to get to this position. But someone like you, who is like a hammer, like me, sometimes I don't want to be loving. Sometimes I want to be like you're an asshole, and like this is not right, and like I am so annoyed, and like why did you do that? Like I want to come at you kind of like in a rude way, and then how well does that work? It never works out? It never worked. But then I'm mad because I'm like, why do I have to be the bigger person? Like this sucks? Like you're the one who's got all the problems, not me. I mean, that's so such a lie. But in my head, that's what I'll tell myself. I know. So it was a very I was in this, That's how that's where we were. Was very much in the same spot. And so God came to me and address my control. Was like, let's let's deal with you, let's forgive. How did he come to you? Well, it was just a very he I mean, I'll put it. I'm not gonna put it mildly. He said, shut your mouth. You heard it. I literally was like, shut your mouth because we're you kind of telling Chris how you felt all this? Yeah, And he was like, before you speak, you need to talk to me first you felt it was yes, it was yes, and it was you are esther. It was a sense of I want you to invite him to a different way of life. Were you praying for this answer to it just come over him. I was wrestling and struggling so much so I don't even know if I was praying. He like, I was just struggling, and it came over you. You felt this, It was shut your mouth, like we gotta work together. We're a team. If you want any shift or change in this marriage, we're going to have to do this together. But you're going to have to change first, and you're gonna have to trust me. See, my control was out of my own fear, was out of my own issues and not trusting him. So if you really believe that God has your spouse and you, then you can partner with him and invite him in and take him for his word. But instead I was strangling him. That you're strangling Chris. Yeah, just with my words of like hey, let's talk or let's let's what about that. It's hard to like invite God into your marriage sometimes, even though God should be at the center of your marriage. Obviously we that's like the core, but it's hard to do that sometimes because you're living with this person and everything that person does affects you. Every every little decision they make, the way they live their life, the way they exist in the world like it now is you. It's you. You are one, and so if they're doing something, it's like it's hard to bring God into it because it's like, you're messing with my life, dude, Right, But then I think that's the beauty of being surrendered and recognizing, Okay, we are one. So I am inheriting their stuff now, yes, spiritually like when you marry, their brokenness is car to you and same for Chris, mine passed to him. We are one, but also not being codependent, like oh I'm stuck with this and now my whole life is inful. It's saying I'm still independent before God. So God, I trust that you can work through me and through him. I'm going to surrender this person to you. Oh that's huge, actually surrendering that person. They're not mine? And does that mean It doesn't mean you stop caring about what they do. It's saying that he's your man? So how do you surrender him? You literally are like, this isn't a mind to carry. How do you stay engaged in your relationship but surrender it over? You surrender them, you hand them over, but you recognize the ways in which you have been holding on that are false, I e. Control nitpicking. I'm talking more to a woman right now, probably in this language, but it's easy to think, well, you know, I'm just stuck. This is my lot, nothing's going to change, versus saying, okay, God, what needs to change in me that is not of you? Fear? You know, whatever, however it's manifesting. It could be that it's angry outbursts, you know, that could be a way that you manipulate. And we think that we're justified in it because this person deserved it because of what they did. But really we are just as to blame as well, because we're creating an environment that is not breeding a good fertile ground. Right, We're not helping love. No. No. So so when I came to that place of hearing your esther, shut your mouth. We're going to work as a team. And the other thing that my dad had me ask God, which was unbelievable, he said, I want you to go to God because at this point I've resented Chris. I didn't feel like he had fought for me. I didn't really feel like he heard me or cared what I had to say, because honestly, I wouldn't care what I had to say either the way I was coming at it right, let's be real. But he said, I want you to go to God and ask God your dad's yes, to give you a picture of who Chris is in his truest self, and you you believe in that man, because see, the problem was I was speaking to him in a way of exactly how I saw him, which wasn't good. Like it was probably like, oh, he's a fifth grader, Like you know, I was talking down to him. And it's so easy to do that as a wife and a woman, because I feel like women are just a great multitaskers. We just see what needs to be done. Let me tell you to do, let me tell you what to do, let me tell you how I need to fix this, because guys are just like I always heard, women are like spaghetti or just a giant like bowl of it all. It's all happening at once, and men are waffles. They can literally do one thing at a time. It's all compartmentalized and so each other beautifully in such frustrating and overwhelming ways. Yes, and so Chris is probably just living his life doing how he's always done. Thinking you're just gonna plug right into the Chris Show exactly why wouldn't you? And that was not what happened. And I mean we got pregnant a month in. That was a total surprise. Bring the babies. Oh yeah, I was sick on the couch. He'd gotten a bus for us to tour. It was his dream. So he's out touring. I'm sick. I mean the whole thing was the perfect dismantling of both of us because he thought this was great and everything's perfect, and you're like, no, no, right, yeah no, because they were just definitely we were in a position of dealing with each other in our differences. Okay, so you said, what is the picture? Your dad said, fantas Chris in the picture that you see of him in his fullest, asked God, and so God gave me a picture and it was sea Biscuit, which is the sea biscuit Sea bis horse horse. He said, he see, he's the he goes he's my winner. I want you to see him as my winner because see the incredible story about I know now you feel like an asshole for not see him as a winner. Not really, because I knew God was seeing my my situation of our differences I felt understood. It wasn't like shame, like you know, you need to see him as the winner. It was more of like that is who he is at his core, and I want you to fight for that man. See, this is where a partner is so powerful, because you can bring out the worst or the best in someone. Yes, yes, it's all in how you present your requests and you support the team and see them instead of getting frustrated on the little things that are driving you nuts and seeing the big picture, big picture. And so that helps me why it was, well, it wasn't me, It was God. I can't take any and my dad, I mean, it was just this and he knows the power of a woman as through their words. And I'm not saying from manipulation, but saying to champion or to break them. So you had to change your communications everything it was to champion. It was. It was a different approach and and believing that God in time could make changes and he did, Like He in time brought about what needed to happen. He brought about what we needed to see. But it wasn't built in a month like I wanted this process because I've been on this journey too I've been on a journey also as well, just to like and I'm gosh, I need to change my uh. I get frustrated and I can like with Michael, he's so easy going. I can be snappy because I'm like I'm O C D. And I'm like super focused and driven, and I can turn into just this anal person when I have like plans, wh we need to go, here's what need to do, here's ready to do it. But a lot of times I missed the big picture of it all because I'm like, there's something so much bigger happening. So yes, I need to work on my approach sometimes. And so when in hearing esther see that was the beautiful thing. It was almost like the coach calling the play. Hey, here's who you are and here's who he is. You're actually holding all the power with God when you are that way, because you are seeing it from the macro and you're and you're surrendered. So there's a place of trust and rest and you're stepping outside of your feelings exactly and seeing the like God from thirty feet up. I love Yes, I love how you're saying that. So that's what happened. I wish I had seen it that clearly in the moment. I didn't see it that clearly, But that's exactly what he was deeply followed it right, and then it changed everything? So did you catch yourself where you catching yourself? Did it was hard to change in the beginning? Or was it easy? He would just I would ask a lot for him to speak to me, So it wasn't just a one and done thing. It was just would you keep speaking to me? What do you have to say? And he would keep bringing that name before me. Um. He would of course say other things as well, but that was what he continually affirmed. And it was interesting because then that name has changed throughout time, like you know, there might be seasons where he brings it back around um. And then did Chris eventually get slowly molded over time to change as well? Because you he did changing and said, then he met you. We we met in the middle. We met in the middle. He he was less passive and stepped in more to conflict, and then I was less controlling and stepped back to be more of a partner in it together. Does that make sense yes versus yes? So he started being willing to confront things that before he would sweep under the rugs because he was just working and blowing and going. I mean that's all he knew, like what's the set list? Where we going? What's the city? You know, boom forward thinking instead of saying what, okay, wait, where am I now? At thirty nine? And so thus began, you know, when I would call home bawling to my dad because I was in that position sharing all this because once again, you and Chris are like an example of like incredible people, godly people, married people, and you're still struggling to hear God in your marriage when you guys are so connected. So it's so nice to this, like, yeah, people, just just because you have this career and that you are connected to God strongly in one way, writing about worship music doesn't mean you're flawless as a human. And there's like the actual living of life is it's everyone has everyone like everybody else. But it's just you're singing songs about God. It doesn't mean you're any different, if that makes sense, right. So I would call home bawling, just like bawling, and my parents had been to there through their own crisis at like twenty five years of marriage, and so they had fought for it. There was a huge change in my dad where he literally was dismantled himself through his anger as powerful. Yes years so wow, Dad, I'd go Dad and family. But that's really hard to do for especially like that generation who's set in their ways, you know, to like take to take a look at himself and to dismantle himself like that and to call himself out. I'm very fortunate. That's huge. It changed our whole family. Go go Dad, I know, go Dad powerful. I thank him all the time, like in his father's day, man to do that, especially I I tell him he was the thing that changed our whole family. And look how it changed your marriage too, because I gave you. Now I'm calling home bawling, and he is saying, and this was the quote out of one of John Eldridge's book, your dad's already gone through his work with your mom. Yes, marriage is God's divine conspiracy for your transformation. Explain that, meaning his divine conspiracy conspiracies like this, this plan, it's a divine plan to bring about your transformation, meaning you would never become the fullest Kara. Apart from Michael and Michael would never become the fullest Michael apart from you. And so in coming together all those tensions, all those frictions sometimes drive you crazy and you hate and you want to like you yes, all your pride, everything gets rubbed up against to where you actually have to change to be making a diamond man exactly exactly right. So you think sometimes you think, like what, like you said in the beginning, like what have we done? Goes, I would say, I would say there's a lot more people that feel that way, they just don't articulate it. And it's really because we have been called to marriage to really see our true self. I mean, obviously there are some marriages that are abusive and bad and like not good but right. And I'm not and I'm not definitely not saying stay in something that's a rocky situation where you're safety, you're as that, But more of in our differences and in our brokenness, in our sin, those things that in being with someone it calls you up. You can't escape it. Like at the end of the day, I mean, when you're single, you can run from all that. So you can just run, run, run. You can run to alcohol, you can run to lust. You can run to travel, you can run to career, you can run to passions. There's like escapes all day long and nobody's there to call you out. And then when you're married, it affects someone else, and that that that person will eventually like wear down or you will come together and you will help each other become the best version that you were supposed to have to work it out together. And then for the other person, that marriage is powerful. It's power and and I think the ones that really fight for it are powerful because they fought for it. I think a lot of people can settle and they're just doing the kids, doing the trips and everything surface. But the soulful, the honest, the true ones to call on your self do not come on a silver platter. You do not get delivered that just by saying I do. Those are the ones that you really fight for it. And my mom told me something that I have never forgotten. And Michael and I talked about this all the time. It's not it's in a marriage. He's like, it's never equal at the same time, and I love that because sometimes like how you started first with with Chris, like you felt called to change first, so you were probably carrying a big load in the beginning that Chris didn't even really realize because you were doing all this internal work to better the marriage. But then he met you and the shifted, and so I feel like that is something to always keep in mind. And that's why people who keep score are really shooting themselves in the head because it is never equal. At the same time, that is a great way of looking at and you have to like when you feel called to do something for your marriage, even if you're doing so much more of the work you might be doing, like but you still like it's gonna shift eventually. Want And that's where it's believed what God is saying to you of like hay, trust me, Like I can deal with him. I'll work with him. But it's you and me right now. It's kind of like the you know, Mike Tyson, they pull you in the ring in the corner. It's that coach like all in your face, like I know you've got like the blood and the sweat and you know your nose is beat up, but like just hang with me, yeah, like we're in this together. Now, go back in the ring and give it everything you have, even though it feels like it's doomsday and hopelessness, which again you have to look at the larger story. Marriage is essentially I mean, marriage is the picture and this is this is provocative God's love for his people. He gives marriages the illustration. So God's love for his church, his people. He uses man and woman marriage as the symbol of that love. So do you think that that's not going to be opposed? The enemy hates anything that is beautiful, that is of love, that is of light. So why do we think there's so many marriages falling apart? Is COVID? Oh my god, Yeah, COVID could like either like bring you together or tear you a part, right, because we were with each other. You're searing things up close and personal, like all of things are falling apart. Yes, but it is opposed. So I think to recognize that in your marriage, if you're feeling the heat, you're not the only one. Recognize if you're making steps forward and you're not settling to just you know, get by and do the kids and do the travel and do the scene. If you're really fighting for it, it will be opposed. Because it does. We're sayings opposed, Yes, thank you yes, well, okay, So when say someone's in the middle of that right now where they are just like at a wall and they're like this sucks, Like I am like miserable, I feel like I'm the worst version of myself. I feel like my husband is the worst version of myself. We don't have any intimacy, no connection. But but you the person doesn't want to leave, but they just are longing for a healed relationship. What would you suggest for someone like that to do, like to start on the jarne of healing. Yes, first I would have them surrender their marriage to God, like this is yours and then time out. Let's let's go to the corner of the ring. God, what do you want to say to me? And then how does that person tell me? To listen? Tell me how you love me, tell me how you see me. It's that simple in that moment, because they're in that position of being beat up, tired, like hopeless. What if that person doesn't know how to hear? Okay, So so it's literally tell me how you see me? Tell you how to tell me? Say those words? Yes, and it would be sitting in quiet and journaling out whatever impressions you see since it's a still quite quiet voice in your spirit. So it's like you're gonna hear something. It's sometimes that's gonna embarrass you, like your shame. Oh oh, not shame, you're stunning, like your your friend who would gain fifty pounds, and then it said you're lovely. She might believe that, well, shame is from the enemy. So God's peaks in love. So if you hear something, it could be too good to be true, Like he could say, hang in there, your marriage is worth fighting for. At one point I asked him, God, give me a picture of our marriage when I felt like it was in the toilet, you know, like he said. He we were in Vancouver and it was the Bamp Mountains and he goes, that is your marriage. It is strong. And I was like, no, not my marriage, Like it's like butter like we are like barely holding it together right now. He's like, that's your marriage. It's strong. He also, and it tears. It makes me tear up because again we both were very much in a place of like, I mean, do we blow it secretly? He showed me a picture sharing this, Lauren, this is so powerful that you share these stories that you're sharing the story about your marriage. I love Yeah, I love it because I mean, we love each other deeply. Now we can laugh about it. But he showed me a picture of us on the front porch of a house rocking, laughing at all of our trials would at that point, it's not funny. No one was laughing. There was not any laughter in our house. I mean we were It was distensient. So to see that picture was like extravagant and not believable. Well, it's unbelievable because ten years from now we are laughing. I mean there's something. Chris is like, I still can't laugh over that, But I'm like, I give it till eighty and we'll we'll be laughing. Yeah. I just love that because I feel to me like this is how I feel. I feel that we all have the tools that we need to really thrive in this life. In our heart. I feel like God gives everyone a blueprint and like a calling. And I'm always like, how did you know your calling? How did you feel it? How do you connect with God? How do you feel God? But it is a powerful feeling, and I love talking to people like you who have identified how to harness what God is saying, and not just like letting it pass by, but like actually finding techniques to hear God and like and tools and how to recognize God in you, because I feel like, especially in our culture, we aren't necessarily taught that, which is crazy, because that is it. It's everything, that is everything. If you can't feel it and hear it and communicate and harness it, then it's like the wind in your sales. Then you are living in this false Christianity, false face where it's scary because you're taking someone else's word for it, or or you're living to the expectations of what your spouse wants or what your mom or your friends, what's going on in Instagram, versus being like, God, you made me. Would you tell me how you see me? Would you tell me the picture of my marriage? I mean you can get that specific, which I don't know where we are on time, but I'm happy if you want me to facilitate, Like if someone doesn't want this, we could just opt out. But if people want to just toss, I could just facilitate a prayer. Let's do it. Let's do it, let's do it, let's wrap it up. Let's facilitate a prayer. This is this is what oscar like. You know the rink where everyone goes for it. Yeah, everybody goes out like we're doing it. Okay, Yes, let's do this. Let's do it. And you can listen to not that you have to share I want here, but just to tell me what you can if that helps you focus. Yes, okay, so we're gonna Lauren's gonna facilitate it for I don't even know what's happening right now, but I'm here for it. Okay, great. Yeah, So Jesus, we love you and we thank you that this is your invitation to life, to freedom, into living true, true to who you made us to be, so that we may walk more fully. So, God, would you speak to me now? Would you tell me how much you love me? And I'm gonna leave it some silence here some time, and then God, would you tell me how you see me? Is there a word? Is there a symbol? Is there a song? Is there a memory, a scripture verse, something that you want to put before me to put in my back pocket for the journey. Sugar is barking, so let it be so, and it's just receiving that whatever you sense. And if you question it, I would just ask for confirmation. What if you didn't, like, really see anything. Stay with it because I'm like trying to see something. But I'm like, but this is also force. The dog's barking. Let's look at the circumstances. Sonny's running around upstairs, like you know. Just stay with this, to stay with this question, Stay with the question, and if you are open, he will show up. So how do you see me? And yes, tell me how much you love me? And tell you tell me how you see me? Just keep asking that question, yes and when? And the reason why the how you see me is so important is because again he's calling out who you really are. So let's say it's a movie character like Shira or something. I don't know what it is. Whatever he uses, then tease it out with them. Okay, well what are you trying to tell me about that character? That's what I did with Esther. Did you journal it? Yes, Durling was the best way for her, sitting in meditation and silence, asking God this, and then when he you asking these questions and then you journal, yes, journal out whatever impressions you receive, and stay with it. Stay don't just like if you don't hear something within two minutes, I'm done. He didn't speak to me because I think most of us are so afraid of rejection and we're putting pressure on it, like, oh my gosh, I gotta hear something right now or else it's not gonna work. Off the music in the car again, ask the question in the shower, asked the question like God, I'm open, like, give me eyes, give me ears, I'm here for it. I love that because right now, like I've done so much work on myself and gone on such a journey with my life just from like everyone who's listeners podcasts, I've talked about my life over and over again in all different ways. But like I was always searching for validation, and I was searching for acceptance, and I wanted to be special because I just had a lot of insecurities. And I thought like if I could get into the spotlight or whatever and have people like love me, then all my insecurities and what I felt inadequate about would go away because now I'm special or whatever. And so I kind of worked through all that. But now I'm at this place where I just feel a lot of peace. But I feel like I'm in my calling, like having this podcast and having these conversations. I feel called to do this. I feel like this is God using me in a in a gift or talent or passion that he gave me to share with others. But I don't know what he wants me to do. More like I don't have like any like inklings of like where do you want me to go? What do you want me to do? Like I just feel very at peace, and I know maybe it's your season to hear you need to be where you are. I don't feel like I need to be super busy right now. And I think and I think going with that, but asking God give me a picture, like what's going on here? It's almost that dialogue with so many of us are so used to talking to God, but it's it's just being open to like, give me a picture of what's going on here for this season? For this season? Yes, yes? And who am I to be in this season? That's a great question, you know, whether it's on the home front. And I love that with you and Lauren Atkins were talking about that she thought she had all these big plans or whatever, but really it was like, you're called your daughters and you know right, well yeah, and she would like wanted some great word and she had just ripped off Thomas's or t R's head and he was like, hey, you need to go apologize to your husband first, and she's like, hey it And then the next thing he said was that impression of hey, do the chalk, like be present, don't miss this, And then what happens is then so many other things have come forth from her life. But you know after that time, I mean, that's what's so amazing is here you were so much on the stage and your validation could have been from being in front of people, and yet here you are one on one with people, and that I believe is your sweet spot. It is and calling forth that and yet it is being heard. But isn't that interesting that had you kept chasing that you could have missed this right here, which is your sweet spot. Yes, but like I told you, I tell you this before, and I tell you in this podcast that like God has shut me down like several times, like with my feelings, I tell you do we talk about that on the podcast on the podcast. But okay, because there's been like several times in my life one with Michael where we broke up and everyone who's listening to this podcast and knows Michael's in my story. We've broken up and got back together. But like there was a moment where Michael and I were both chasing our career so hard. I felt completely lost, like completely lost, like I could barely take care of myself emotionally spiritually. I had no I was like, I can't be with another person who's also a dreamer, who's chasing, who's like figuring out his dirney. I was so lost in my own that I was like, I cannot be with someone anyone right now because I literally feel so chaotic. And I heard God in my head say Austin, like literally like the word Austin, and I was like, I need to move to Austin. You mentioned also when you talk to me that you felt something in your gut. Your gut makes me nauseous, Okay, so that's in your body, like a real sense when you hear something, since something, you feel it. And now, because I've had and I also did it with um my music career, I hit this moment where I was like I got to quit music professionally, Like I still love singing and I sing to Sunny and like music is amazing and I enjoy it. But like I hit this moment where I was like, I do not want to walk a professional road pursuing this anymore. And I was like in the middle of record deals and all sorts of stuff, and I've been chasing it for like ten fifteen years and finally dreams were coming true. But like my gut was saying, no, this is not what you want. This is not your destiny, and it screamed at me so loud that it like I hit my knee, felt nauseous and felt like I heard words for the first time because I pushed it to the breaking point where either I was gonna like walk through the resistance and go against what my gut was telling me, because I'm like, this is what I've worked for, this is what I wanted, and like with Michael, and when I heard like go to Austin, It's like, no, we could just stay and work it out. But it was like, no, if I if I stay and push through this, it's not going to make this grow and be vibrant. It's going to suffocate it and kill it and just all the negative things are going to be flourishing like resentment, and I feel, you know, like I just knew I had to go on my own journey. And those are hard moments because you have to disrupt everything, and you disrupt other people, and you disrupt your life and you have to start over and it's terrifying and you don't know what in the f you're doing, no guys other than like you're just you're listening to your gut instincts. And then you're like, am I absolutely crazy? Like what am I doing? I don't even know where I'm going now? I'm starting over, but I don't have any where to go other than I got this strong feeling. But isn't that faith? Everything doesn't make sense. And then the voice comes in and says trust me, but you're like like walk on water and you're like, but no, I can't. And it's like no, come like trust me. And it's like a lot of people don't want to do that because the disruption of your life is terrifying. Oh oh, the ripple effects of those decisions. But everything hangs in the balance in those moments, because those are the moments where then the whole path and the plot line shifts and you can stay on the one that you're on that you know is not in line, or you can trust and walk with them. And when I say walk, it's that conversational dialogue like what we've been talking is that hand in hand, he's with you, You're holding his hand. You're not off isolated by yourself like throwing up like what out there? It's like, No, We're in this together, Like we're thick as thieves on this. How do you kind of sense how do you know when God when you're on the right path of God? Like, what does it feel like to you? What is your guidance system from God? Oh, it's just it's really being centered more in that conversation. Do you feel I know when I when I've drifted and I've gone to self reliance, No bueno? What does it feel self reliance is like I haven't involved him in the equation for weeks and that can easily happen churning, burning schedules, three kids. I know when I've just kind of gone off and I'm like, you know, that's when I know, like, okay, well let's get back on the horse. What do you start feeling like when you've gone off? Well, it's that's a good question. I think it's different for everybody. You know, it's kind of like you know your check engine light when you know you've gone down a path mind self reliance. So it's just gutting it out. Do you start feeling like just not peaceful or do you feel like just more like a bit more intense. Yeah, intense, that's a good word. Getting it out intense driving driving, Then you're not really like feeling peace, peace like joy, freedom, like presence, calm. That's a great way. It's funny we keep circling back to peace. Funny you've been saying that I feel a lot of peace in my life right now, even though I don't have any big moves happening right now. Like I've done a lot of big moves my whole life. I've always felt like I've been like starting a music career, doing the amazing race, launching a podcast, doing regional work, being like all these big heavy like and this is just figure out and start over and dive into and give everything I have. But now I just feel kind of like I'm just like here, and it probably feels very strange, like what do I need to be doing right now? And the best answer is from him, But my gut is it's nothing. You're to sit in this moment like to receive it. It's a gift and I feel peace. But then, like, if you start looking around you see all these other people doing stuff, I'm like, I don't need to be writing a book. You've been on the treadmill for fifteen years. But I'm like, I see people in my kind of position. I'm like, okay, podcasters, they start a network on a tour the stuff, But like, I feel like that could be in my future, but it doesn't feel like it's right now. And I'd ask him, I take that question to him again, tell me how you see me? What is the season about? And you'll get it. Okay, how you see me and what is the season about? That's more specifically for you. Anyone struggling in their marriage, I would say, would you give me a picture of my spouse and their true self? And would you give me a picture of our marriage? Like what are you up to? And I'm talking about you know, this is not abuse, this is not a bad situation. This is like they're two different people. Addiction. I mean God works through addiction, God works through anything. Yes, So you know. But but really, but the thing that's physically or spiritually really harming, Yes, exactly, I want to find that out. But being in a position to trust that He can work, and it might be in the surrendering. It's God, do whatever it takes, meaning sometimes he allows things to come our way. And that's a scary prayer. And I have prayed it, even like sickness, and do whatever it takes because my heart is after you. I know you're good and I know you're for our good, So do whatever it takes to bring about the change you need to bring. And that's a real place to surrender. I have prayed that because you were prepared for it to be bad. Yes, and you never know because we always say these things, but we just think it would be like a great blessing, like a great or people fear the worst, like it's like a car accident or like you know, but he can work in so many different ways. But I mean it could be it's awful, and I mean I hate to even say that, but like beauty comes out of everything, and a lesson comes out of everything, and a change comes out of everything. You're being very surrendered to trust God. If you are good. Sometimes I have to say that to God all the time. I'm like, God, just you know, I'm a been, you know, I'm ready to do what you want. But then I'm like, I need to take that prayer back because what if he does something bad? Like what if it's like what if he like bad news? Right right? Because I'm like, I'm God, I'm totally available to do whatever you need however you want to, like use my life I'm here for. But then I'm like, oh, maybe I should not say that, because what if he doesn't tragic because we want an easy life. But but if we really trust that he is good and he is four are good and he's with us, that the macro picture of what he's up is far greater then where we are presently sitting and how we just want it easy and we want to get our Starbucks and have our four own k and like life's working for So Okay, I'm gonna wrap up. This has been such a great conversation. Oh my god, I'm so glad. This has been so loving. What is the point of this life? Someone like you who has done so much internal work, You're so connected to God in all areas of your life. Why are we here? Why are we not just like in heaven? Why are we not just like in the holy existence? Why are we in this broken dual world of suffering and joy and God and devil? Like why do we have to live here? Because sometimes I'm like, why are we not just in the perfect place? Like why are we even here? Well, there's a story of redemption unfolding. Why I know because there was a collision of kingdoms And that's a big loaded statement, but you know the enemy was jealous of God. He brought angels with him and ever since then there has been a collision of good and evil and the story will end. Redemption is coming, but right now it is unfolding, and we have a part to play. So you have a part to play in bringing life and love and bringing God's beauty to this earth. I have a part to play, but that's why it's opposed. So everything we're doing on this earth is part of the redemption story. It is a part of the or giving into the other part of it. Yes, but there's a large the larger story is we're all all here to bring redemption. If we listen to this, there is a larger call. There's a larger, beautiful story of God that is happening. People who get lost in the darkness of it all, and that's that's the unfortunate, heartbreaking thing, because they have the light in them, they just don't choose to go with that. And that's the heart that's the heartbreaking thing, is what happens. We truly have, all of us have light in us, and all of us were born to heal and have a gift and a purpose to heal. That makes sense to be a part of the redemption story. But we also have the ability to go the other way. Yes, we choose, and that's God. That's the ultimate risk. He gave man the choice to choose to reject him. So how did he give us that choice? Well, I mean, would you would you want Michael just to be bonded to you out of like? No? But I mean I guess if we find if we were just like in this blissful heavenly spot, we didn't have to start with any of the bad stuff, right right? Can we just stay there? No? But I guess we want to experience and feel and this gives us ownership of our divine spark with God because that's what we are as humans like we are all of us are a God spark. Yes, I love that. Did you just phrase that? I feel like I've heard that somewhere. I love I love that because like a little little God sparks floating around and getting a chance to like live out a something that like live something out in this life, like live out joy, live out forgiveness, live out true love like being a parent, live out relationship, love with a spouse, live out you know, traveling the world and seeing beauty like being a god spark. Sometimes it's hard because God comes in and does home renovations on us, like God sparks aren't always easy because the beauty actually comes when we've walked through the pain and when we've dealt with our stuff. Home renovation that's great because he take on the stage. You're like, this house is like falling apart, right, and then you rebuild it exactly you are on fire. I mean there are people when they walk in a room and I know you know this, You feel people who know who they are, don't absolutely you can feel their presence. It takes intention, and it takes me an open and it takes connection to God like fighting for that relationship that's not just what you've been handed down. It's like your own personal relationship and not the rules. So we started out you talking about look at this perfect wrap up. I mean, I mean, should I just start working with you? I mean, yeah, we needed this together? Yes, No, absolutely not. But I loved this conversation so much. Full circle. You started out with the rules, but the real invitation is walking with him hand in hand, hearing from him. Tell me how much you love me, tell me how you see me, and there's the path. Wow. Jeez. Okay, Lauren, Okay, last question I always leave with this one, leave your light. What do you want people to know they're loved? Simple? Just I know that doesn't even so it sounds profound, But after all, this like their loved because I think so many people out of what's happened in their story and so much of what's come against people. I mean, it's tragic when I meet with women and I hear I mean, it's just it's amazing what people, what the human heart can endure. But to really believe and to own how much they're loved, Like there is a God that is coming. He loves you. This is a story of redemption and that's what he's after, showing how much he loves you and all your circumstances that you're born into. Even if you're born into a broken home parents, you weren't there all sorts of abuse in trauma, Like it feels like you might not have been loved, been loved. That's just your circumstances. But really, and that takes a lot of hard work to get on the other side of that. But you are loved, and you are And then, like you said with your author, that broken wound is actually your greatest invitation to help others see light. But you have to do the work to heal yourself and to get to the bottom of it and to find God and all of that. And that takes a lot of work, and a lot of people don't want to do it, but it's amazing when you're open. It's baby steps, so it might seem overwhelming, but if it just boils down to that one question, then it becomes Okay, it's this first step, and then it's the next step. And he's told me this and this and this. I mean to look at fifteen years of hearing from God, what I started out hearing and where I am now I would have never imagined where he took me. But it again change the trajectory, and you just started with baby steps, baby steps. It wasn't who do I marry? Do I change jobs? Tell me how you see me? And then in time, once I learned to know his voice, I took the bigger questions to him and I sat with him on it. And maybe you have to come back day after day, like you don't get an answer, oh one hunt, yes, like sometimes you do not hear right away, sometimes you don't, and then eventually if you keep asking, you just do eventually hear it. It's it's it's pursuing that and then and and really just being present to him. So we're gonna wrap up. Do you do you communicate with God all day? No? I mean throughout the day. Yes, But it's not like I'm talking to him all day long. I mean throughout Like when you're talking to him throughout the day. What do you do you all of a sudden be like, oh hey God, or like are you just like what are you driving by something? I don't that's a great question. Oh my gosh, that's a really hard question. It's less formal and it's more like a buddy in the front seat. So it's really more of my spirit. It's it's very less like formalized like God, here I sit. It's just very like, okay, what do we do about this house we have? Or you know, you chatting it out. It's like we're buddies. Do you know to go to God with the big questions? Now? Yes, Like you know, we just had one this weekend for you know, we have a vacation home and we had it listed and it was this incredible offer and we we were around and around, and in the end we didn't have peace. We kept praying, yeah, we did not have ease. Okay, so we did not hear a clear answer. So here here, here, here, people Chris Tomlin and Lauren Tomlin did not hear a clear answer. So you didn't do it. We didn't do it. We didn't have peace. So that was we did not get an answer. There was not a sell it or there was not a keep it. But we didn't have peace, so we just stayed. We stayed. I love that and I've heard that before. My friend Taylor, who I was in a trio with. She Loretta Len's granddaughter. She's in recovery. She she's done tons of work on herself and she's a big part of my story as well, because she's like brought me so much healing through her story. She's taught me so much. That's amazing. Um. But she always said, pray for clarity and if you don't have clarity, then just stay put. And I love that. That's a great word, like pray for clarity. And if you don't feel it, like you feel like okay, so here you are in the vacation house, You're like, we could sell it, this would be great, but it doesn't feel totally right. And I don't know why it makes sense on paper, but we just didn't have peace. So peace. If you feel peace and it's moving forward, then go with that. But if you don't feel peace, then don't move forward. Yes, I think that's a great way of looking at it. And it's so much more simple than we think. I know, we can overcomplicate it comp and we put all these human rules and expectations on it, but really God is guiding us. I know, just that still small voice. We have to just hear it and listen to it, and they trust it, which sounds crazy because you're trusting something you can't see, which is the point of God. I know, faith, faith, Lauren. This is the best so much. I love you too. This was awesome. Thank you for joining me. Okay, Lauren Tomlin, everyone, she's amazing. Can people find you anywhere? Because you're not on social media? I'm like completely hidden. You're like invisible, which is great. You're you. You're skipped out on all the things that cause anxiety, Like how would people find me? They can direct message me on Instagram? Are you on Instagram? I'm on and I don't post. I'll look, but I'm sure you know. Is it at Lauren Tomlin? Don't even know what it is? I mean, is that a joke? Creative? I know exactly? Facebook? Either one. Well, you are just such a blessing and a gift, and you use your life in your influence, in everything you've learned in such a powerful way, and it's like really inspiring to know you and get to talk to you, Like having this conversation was awesome. So I appreciate your time that you would come and share with me and everyone listening. Love you, girl, I love you too.