Welcome to the Friends with Money Podcast, brought to you by Money Magazine, creating financial freedom for Australians since nineteen ninety nine.

Welcome to the Friends with Money Podcast, brought to you by Money Magazine, creating financial freedom for Australians since nineteen ninety nine.

Hello and welcome to the Friends with Money podcast, your weekly pod to help you save and make more money. My name is Michelle Baltazar. I'm the editor in chief here at Money Magazine. Thank you for joining us. From buying a car to getting a pay rise. There is one skill that comes in handy to get a really good deal, our negotiation skills. But this is not a skill that comes naturally to many of us, myself included, not are taught at home. I have to say that I do have an auntie who tries to negotiate a fifty percent discount everywhere she goes without batting an eyelid, and I think to myself, how do you do that? Well, today we are talking to someone who's better known as the value Negotiator. She is the author of a new book called The Negotiation Playbook, Strategies That Work and Results That Last. Now she's not just a negotiation specialist. She's a non exec board director, a coach and now an author. Her name is Glynn Bailey and she has trained executives at companies like Woolworths, lend Lee's, and Arnet's. Well, hopefully by the end of the episode we learn a thing or two on how to negotiate when it comes to our finances. Glynn, welcome to Friends with Money. Thank you so much for having me on the show. It's great to be here now. Congratulations on your new book. I think it will come in very handy. I will recommend it to all my family and friends. This is definitely a life skill from negotiating your deals, probably in a business environment or even your personal relationships. So if you don't mind, because our listeners probably you're thinking, great, I will learn a thing or two on discounts or probably negotiating a better job or a salary. Let's focus on that first. What would you say would be your top three tips when it comes to how do you enter a negotiation? So the very basic mindset before you get there.

Hello and welcome to the Friends with Money podcast, your weekly pod to help you save and make more money. My name is Michelle Baltazar. I'm the editor in chief here at Money Magazine. Thank you for joining us. From buying a car to getting a pay rise. There is one skill that comes in handy to get a really good deal, our negotiation skills. But this is not a skill that comes naturally to many of us, myself included, not are taught at home. I have to say that I do have an auntie who tries to negotiate a fifty percent discount everywhere she goes without batting an eyelid, and I think to myself, how do you do that? Well, today we are talking to someone who's better known as the value Negotiator. She is the author of a new book called The Negotiation Playbook, Strategies That Work and Results That Last. Now she's not just a negotiation specialist. She's a non exec board director, a coach and now an author. Her name is Glynn Bailey and she has trained executives at companies like Woolworths, lend Lee's, and Arnet's. Well, hopefully by the end of the episode we learn a thing or two on how to negotiate when it comes to our finances. Glynn, welcome to Friends with Money. Thank you so much for having me on the show. It's great to be here now. Congratulations on your new book. I think it will come in very handy. I will recommend it to all my family and friends. This is definitely a life skill from negotiating your deals, probably in a business environment or even your personal relationships. So if you don't mind, because our listeners probably you're thinking, great, I will learn a thing or two on discounts or probably negotiating a better job or a salary. Let's focus on that first. What would you say would be your top three tips when it comes to how do you enter a negotiation? So the very basic mindset before you get there.

Yeah, I think the key thing is recognizing that the negotiation begins long before you are at the table, either physically or virtually with the other person that you're negotiating with or seeking to reach an agreement with. So in terms of preparation, if I was to say, For example, a salary negotiation, think about the timing around when you ask. Most people ask for a salary increase after they've already delivered all of the value that they're is their companies were expecting them to deliver, and at that point they have the least amount of leverage. So if you approach the conversation around the expectation of a salary increase before you are agreeing and committing to what you're going to do in return for that, you have a lot more leverage. When your manager and your team need you to deliver a certain outcome, and in order for you to commit to that delivery, you also agree what you want in return for that outcome. So it might look like in terms of, you know, I want to achieve a salary increase of x percent by this time next year. If I agree to deliver X, Y and Z by this period of time, can we have a conversation in six months time about what my salary increase could look like. At that point, your line managers not likely to say no, because you're not asking them to give you the salary increase, but you are agreeing what you're committed to do in exchange for that salary increased return, which most people don't do. We often say, here's all the wonderful things I've delivered, now can you give me some money to compensate me? And it's too late by that point, because at least this way you get to determine how much you invest in terms of time, energy, and commitment to delivering something on the basis that you're going to get something in return, because if the likelihood of your salary increases it's low. Or they say, oh, well, look, you know you're only going to be able to get a one percent two percent salary increase at best given current market conditions, I would argue, well, you need to look at where else you'd be better leverage to spend your time that could give you a greater return on your investment.

Yeah, I think the key thing is recognizing that the negotiation begins long before you are at the table, either physically or virtually with the other person that you're negotiating with or seeking to reach an agreement with. So in terms of preparation, if I was to say, For example, a salary negotiation, think about the timing around when you ask. Most people ask for a salary increase after they've already delivered all of the value that they're is their companies were expecting them to deliver, and at that point they have the least amount of leverage. So if you approach the conversation around the expectation of a salary increase before you are agreeing and committing to what you're going to do in return for that, you have a lot more leverage. When your manager and your team need you to deliver a certain outcome, and in order for you to commit to that delivery, you also agree what you want in return for that outcome. So it might look like in terms of, you know, I want to achieve a salary increase of x percent by this time next year. If I agree to deliver X, Y and Z by this period of time, can we have a conversation in six months time about what my salary increase could look like. At that point, your line managers not likely to say no, because you're not asking them to give you the salary increase, but you are agreeing what you're committed to do in exchange for that salary increased return, which most people don't do. We often say, here's all the wonderful things I've delivered, now can you give me some money to compensate me? And it's too late by that point, because at least this way you get to determine how much you invest in terms of time, energy, and commitment to delivering something on the basis that you're going to get something in return, because if the likelihood of your salary increases it's low. Or they say, oh, well, look, you know you're only going to be able to get a one percent two percent salary increase at best given current market conditions, I would argue, well, you need to look at where else you'd be better leverage to spend your time that could give you a greater return on your investment.

I think this is important for people to realize that there is a level of discomfort, as you rightly pointed out, and guilty as charged. Certainly, when I first started working, you kind of build up this suite of accomplishments, and then at the end of the year you go, well, I've done all this, now pay up. But you're saying that that is not the right way to go you really need to prep for it, and there is that very early kind of discussion to say, these are the things that i'd like to do, and that seems reasonable enough now that you have prepped for it. Let's say so you've done one, two, three, you're at the negotiation table and your boss or your manager says, oh, like you said, we don't have the money right now, or this is the company struggling. How do you navigate your way through that kind of conversation.

I think this is important for people to realize that there is a level of discomfort, as you rightly pointed out, and guilty as charged. Certainly, when I first started working, you kind of build up this suite of accomplishments, and then at the end of the year you go, well, I've done all this, now pay up. But you're saying that that is not the right way to go you really need to prep for it, and there is that very early kind of discussion to say, these are the things that i'd like to do, and that seems reasonable enough now that you have prepped for it. Let's say so you've done one, two, three, you're at the negotiation table and your boss or your manager says, oh, like you said, we don't have the money right now, or this is the company struggling. How do you navigate your way through that kind of conversation.

I think the key thing is if you get told that information in a meeting and it comes as a surprise to you, you haven't prepared effectively enough. Because what I know about negotiation is that there are very little surprises of information that could be access beforehand. That is available. So if, for example, the company is struggling or the budget's tight, you would know that information long before you have that meeting. So my encouragement would be first and foremost when you're making that commitment to laying a very ambitious objective down, Hey, I'm seeking a twenty percent increase in my salary. I'm going to sit down with you at the six month mark and we're going to discuss my progress and how we're tracking towards that. I'm also going to provide you monthly updates on how we're tracking, so that we can have this continued dialogue about not only what I'm delivering, but what you can also be delivering for me in return, such that if that conversation then happens one it's not a surprise to you. But if you do then find yourself in a situation where they say, well, there's not much we can do financially. What I want you to be asking is, well, what can be done? I know it might not be possible for you to give me a ten percent or a twenty percent increase in salary. First and foremost, what salary increase is possible? And secondly, are there any other areas that you could have the opportunity to flex greater power over that allows you to do something for me in exchange for the value I'm bringing the business? That could look like you asking for compressed hours. So I've got friends that do this. They work the same amount of hours over four days, so it still get paid a full time salary, but then get every single friday off. Now that might be something you can negotiate as a lever, but you have to understand one what leavers are meaningful and are valuable to you. So is that flexibility in location of where you work, the time of how you work or where you focus your time and your energy, what type of work you do, access to different training or resources. So there's a whole number of areas. If you are planning more creatively about where the options are for getting a better return for the value you're delivering in exchange, you can start to open up the dialogue around what is possible rather than be willing to accept what isn't possible. Because we know it's very difficult for people to give us pure cash at times, because if the company is struggling and there's an economic crisis, that's the natural default that line managers and businesses will take. However, it shouldn't prevent you from saying, well, I understand that might be difficult, but what is less difficult for you to do? What is possible and here's some suggestions around things that are important and meaningful to me.

I think the key thing is if you get told that information in a meeting and it comes as a surprise to you, you haven't prepared effectively enough. Because what I know about negotiation is that there are very little surprises of information that could be access beforehand. That is available. So if, for example, the company is struggling or the budget's tight, you would know that information long before you have that meeting. So my encouragement would be first and foremost when you're making that commitment to laying a very ambitious objective down, Hey, I'm seeking a twenty percent increase in my salary. I'm going to sit down with you at the six month mark and we're going to discuss my progress and how we're tracking towards that. I'm also going to provide you monthly updates on how we're tracking, so that we can have this continued dialogue about not only what I'm delivering, but what you can also be delivering for me in return, such that if that conversation then happens one it's not a surprise to you. But if you do then find yourself in a situation where they say, well, there's not much we can do financially. What I want you to be asking is, well, what can be done? I know it might not be possible for you to give me a ten percent or a twenty percent increase in salary. First and foremost, what salary increase is possible? And secondly, are there any other areas that you could have the opportunity to flex greater power over that allows you to do something for me in exchange for the value I'm bringing the business? That could look like you asking for compressed hours. So I've got friends that do this. They work the same amount of hours over four days, so it still get paid a full time salary, but then get every single friday off. Now that might be something you can negotiate as a lever, but you have to understand one what leavers are meaningful and are valuable to you. So is that flexibility in location of where you work, the time of how you work or where you focus your time and your energy, what type of work you do, access to different training or resources. So there's a whole number of areas. If you are planning more creatively about where the options are for getting a better return for the value you're delivering in exchange, you can start to open up the dialogue around what is possible rather than be willing to accept what isn't possible. Because we know it's very difficult for people to give us pure cash at times, because if the company is struggling and there's an economic crisis, that's the natural default that line managers and businesses will take. However, it shouldn't prevent you from saying, well, I understand that might be difficult, but what is less difficult for you to do? What is possible and here's some suggestions around things that are important and meaningful to me.

Now, when I walked into this episode, I thought we'd be able to cover at least three things by the end of this whether it's the pay rise, the job, the promotion, mortgage car loan. But even this whole aspect of just negotiating a pay rise is an episode in itself. Now, I know that you do coaching, that is your line of work around this, but this is something new that I've just learned today, the idea of you don't have to wait for that sale sign or look at what is discounted. You can go to them and say, hey, what's an offer. I think that's something that I'm going to use this year to look at, you know, white goods or buying a computer at a normal you know, electronics store. You talked about the value that you bring to the negotiation. So whether it's you as a loyal customer or it's you as a as an employee that's been performing very well, But what role does understanding your own value play in the whole discussion.

Now, when I walked into this episode, I thought we'd be able to cover at least three things by the end of this whether it's the pay rise, the job, the promotion, mortgage car loan. But even this whole aspect of just negotiating a pay rise is an episode in itself. Now, I know that you do coaching, that is your line of work around this, but this is something new that I've just learned today, the idea of you don't have to wait for that sale sign or look at what is discounted. You can go to them and say, hey, what's an offer. I think that's something that I'm going to use this year to look at, you know, white goods or buying a computer at a normal you know, electronics store. You talked about the value that you bring to the negotiation. So whether it's you as a loyal customer or it's you as a as an employee that's been performing very well, But what role does understanding your own value play in the whole discussion.

I think most people confuse intrinsic worth with extrinsic value, and sometimes we think, oh, if I ask for this, someone might not think that I'm worth this much, for example, with my salary increase example, Or if I ask this question and I say it wrong or I don't ask it effectively, people are going to think less of me and from a psychology perspective, the reason why most people avoid negotiating or leaning into that discomfort to make a bigger ask is because there's a deeper inner need that we all have to know that we are valued and that we are of value, and we fear diminishing that value in ourselves all the time. And what I say is, there is never your intrinsic worth as a human being is never on the table to be negotiated up or down. And I think once you recognize that the only person that can diminish your internal intrinsic value is the way you perceive yourself, then you can start to remove that from your focus area to say, okay, well, my intrinsic value never changes. I'm worthy as a human being. So even if I get this wrong, it's okay, who I am and my value and my worth will not change. What does change is the extrinsic value that's available to you from the other party. So your salary will fluctuate depending on the market's level of interest in your skill set, the level of competition in the marketplace for the value you bring and the skills you offer. The discounts you get will be dependent on the conditions available in the economic environment that you're operating in, or the level of competition different supermarkets or stores or service providers are having with their own competitive set. So when you start to realize the game most people think they're playing is an internal one. And if you can say, well, actually, no, I'm good, what I need to determine is what's the game available for me to play externally? And how can I see where the value sits and not make it about what my own internal PHAs are. I think it allows you to step into something far more powerful and a much more confident version of yourself, because going for no actually doesn't scare you. It almost becomes a game to say, well, let's see how many people say no, and actually you'll probably be surprised that you're more likely to get a yes than a no, because you're asking significantly more frequently.

I think most people confuse intrinsic worth with extrinsic value, and sometimes we think, oh, if I ask for this, someone might not think that I'm worth this much, for example, with my salary increase example, Or if I ask this question and I say it wrong or I don't ask it effectively, people are going to think less of me and from a psychology perspective, the reason why most people avoid negotiating or leaning into that discomfort to make a bigger ask is because there's a deeper inner need that we all have to know that we are valued and that we are of value, and we fear diminishing that value in ourselves all the time. And what I say is, there is never your intrinsic worth as a human being is never on the table to be negotiated up or down. And I think once you recognize that the only person that can diminish your internal intrinsic value is the way you perceive yourself, then you can start to remove that from your focus area to say, okay, well, my intrinsic value never changes. I'm worthy as a human being. So even if I get this wrong, it's okay, who I am and my value and my worth will not change. What does change is the extrinsic value that's available to you from the other party. So your salary will fluctuate depending on the market's level of interest in your skill set, the level of competition in the marketplace for the value you bring and the skills you offer. The discounts you get will be dependent on the conditions available in the economic environment that you're operating in, or the level of competition different supermarkets or stores or service providers are having with their own competitive set. So when you start to realize the game most people think they're playing is an internal one. And if you can say, well, actually, no, I'm good, what I need to determine is what's the game available for me to play externally? And how can I see where the value sits and not make it about what my own internal PHAs are. I think it allows you to step into something far more powerful and a much more confident version of yourself, because going for no actually doesn't scare you. It almost becomes a game to say, well, let's see how many people say no, and actually you'll probably be surprised that you're more likely to get a yes than a no, because you're asking significantly more frequently.

Well said, And I know that this is in the middle of the episode that we're talking about this, but that is incredibly powerful to talk about your intrinsic worth versus the external value. And I'm beginning to think that my Auntie has such a strong sense of worth that she could just say, hey, you know, this is not about me. This is about, hey, can you give me a fifty percent discount? So thank you for sharing with me. Now, this is kind of a follow up to what you just said. But why do people kind of try to steer away from negotiating? And I know that we have a lot of money readers who have emailed us in the past and say and said to us, I really don't want to negotiate that my salary. I just want them to give it to me. So what are the reasons why we kind of move away from it or avoid it altogether. Why can't it be a positive experience?

Well said, And I know that this is in the middle of the episode that we're talking about this, but that is incredibly powerful to talk about your intrinsic worth versus the external value. And I'm beginning to think that my Auntie has such a strong sense of worth that she could just say, hey, you know, this is not about me. This is about, hey, can you give me a fifty percent discount? So thank you for sharing with me. Now, this is kind of a follow up to what you just said. But why do people kind of try to steer away from negotiating? And I know that we have a lot of money readers who have emailed us in the past and say and said to us, I really don't want to negotiate that my salary. I just want them to give it to me. So what are the reasons why we kind of move away from it or avoid it altogether. Why can't it be a positive experience?

Yeah, I think it's the story we make up in our mind about what it means for us. Most people perceive negotiation to be a combat where it's going to be a competitive situation. I want something and the other party won't want to give it me, and it becomes a fight internally in our own minds around what we think is going to happen. And what we're failing to see that is that negotiation is a conversation between two or more people where the objective is to reach an agreement. Now, if you can recognize that the is happening because there's an opportunity to reach you agreement. You'll then objective and focus becomes or what's what's the agreement that they are willing to accept, which still gives me what I want? And it forces you to start to think about where value sits. So what I find value more valuable might be a discounted interest rate on my mortgage, or it could be a higher salary, or it could be getting it a discount on a car loan. But what does the other party value? Because if you can understand then what the other party values, you a better placed to then know how to exchange it. We get more of what we want when we learn how to give the other party what they want. And ideally what they want costs us very little, and what they what we want that they can give us might cost them very little. So for example, if I'm asking for a twenty percent salary increase, i might think, wow, that's a lot for them to give me. However, if I bring the business ten times more profitability than the salary that I'm asking for, the exchange makes sense for both parties because that's a loss that the business wouldn't want to incur. Loyalty as a customer base you know, for a service provider, it's much harder to attract and acquire a new customer than it is to keep an existing customer. So if you can start to recognize that it's more valuable for them to retain you then to have to work harder to find someone brand new off the street to do business with. You can start to speak into what other people's areas for value you are. And the best way to discover what someone values is to ask them. And if you can ask them, what's meaningful important to you in your business? How are you measured? In what way does doing business with you help yours with me help your business? And in what way can I support that you can understand what you then have to exchange that could be as a mutually valuable exchange. And I think that's where you can have much more authentic negotiation conversations that are not fear based, because you're not trying to extract money from people without actually giving the opportunity for value to be created in another way.

Yeah, I think it's the story we make up in our mind about what it means for us. Most people perceive negotiation to be a combat where it's going to be a competitive situation. I want something and the other party won't want to give it me, and it becomes a fight internally in our own minds around what we think is going to happen. And what we're failing to see that is that negotiation is a conversation between two or more people where the objective is to reach an agreement. Now, if you can recognize that the is happening because there's an opportunity to reach you agreement. You'll then objective and focus becomes or what's what's the agreement that they are willing to accept, which still gives me what I want? And it forces you to start to think about where value sits. So what I find value more valuable might be a discounted interest rate on my mortgage, or it could be a higher salary, or it could be getting it a discount on a car loan. But what does the other party value? Because if you can understand then what the other party values, you a better placed to then know how to exchange it. We get more of what we want when we learn how to give the other party what they want. And ideally what they want costs us very little, and what they what we want that they can give us might cost them very little. So for example, if I'm asking for a twenty percent salary increase, i might think, wow, that's a lot for them to give me. However, if I bring the business ten times more profitability than the salary that I'm asking for, the exchange makes sense for both parties because that's a loss that the business wouldn't want to incur. Loyalty as a customer base you know, for a service provider, it's much harder to attract and acquire a new customer than it is to keep an existing customer. So if you can start to recognize that it's more valuable for them to retain you then to have to work harder to find someone brand new off the street to do business with. You can start to speak into what other people's areas for value you are. And the best way to discover what someone values is to ask them. And if you can ask them, what's meaningful important to you in your business? How are you measured? In what way does doing business with you help yours with me help your business? And in what way can I support that you can understand what you then have to exchange that could be as a mutually valuable exchange. And I think that's where you can have much more authentic negotiation conversations that are not fear based, because you're not trying to extract money from people without actually giving the opportunity for value to be created in another way.

Wow, I am literally taking notes as you give all these tips, and I think they're really important for us now, especially because we're negotiating everything. What are the top three mistakes that people make when they are trying to negotiate something, whether it is the car loan or the pay rise.

Wow, I am literally taking notes as you give all these tips, and I think they're really important for us now, especially because we're negotiating everything. What are the top three mistakes that people make when they are trying to negotiate something, whether it is the car loan or the pay rise.

I think that there's so many mistakes. I think the first mistake is people don't recognize that every opportunity that you have to make an agreement is an opportunity to negotiate. So a lot of people think that the price is the price and that there is no opportunity to negotiate. And I would say, challenge that perspective. Give yourself the chance to explore what might be possible. You know, ask that question. I know this doesn't look like it's discounted, but what other benefits can you offer me that I don't know about? And get the other party to work to tell you what's available. I think the second thing is the mistake being you think just because if something's available, that someone's automatically going to offer it you. No, even with salary increases, there is typically more available, but your business is not going to automatically offer you that because you're really relying on them paying attention to you.

I think that there's so many mistakes. I think the first mistake is people don't recognize that every opportunity that you have to make an agreement is an opportunity to negotiate. So a lot of people think that the price is the price and that there is no opportunity to negotiate. And I would say, challenge that perspective. Give yourself the chance to explore what might be possible. You know, ask that question. I know this doesn't look like it's discounted, but what other benefits can you offer me that I don't know about? And get the other party to work to tell you what's available. I think the second thing is the mistake being you think just because if something's available, that someone's automatically going to offer it you. No, even with salary increases, there is typically more available, but your business is not going to automatically offer you that because you're really relying on them paying attention to you.

At a micro level.

At a micro level.

In large complex organizations, even the bestest people may get missed because there's different focus areas that people have. So you have to be willing to be able to speak up for yourself and not assume just because something hasn't been given to you it's not available. You just need to ask. That's number two. And then number three is don't let your own discomfort hinder you from making the ask. And I think this is probably the biggest area, is that we often talk ourselves out of asking for what we want, so we negotiate with ourselves internally first and say, oh, they wouldn't accept it if I asked for that, so I'll ask for less. And we've already discounted what we actually wanted because we ask for less than what we would be willing to get past our discomfort for. So I would say, give yourself the chance to say, well, what would make me feel really uncomfortable asking and practice ask for what makes you uncomfortable rather than what makes you comfortable, because if you ask with what makes you comfortable, you're leaving potential value on the table.

In large complex organizations, even the bestest people may get missed because there's different focus areas that people have. So you have to be willing to be able to speak up for yourself and not assume just because something hasn't been given to you it's not available. You just need to ask. That's number two. And then number three is don't let your own discomfort hinder you from making the ask. And I think this is probably the biggest area, is that we often talk ourselves out of asking for what we want, so we negotiate with ourselves internally first and say, oh, they wouldn't accept it if I asked for that, so I'll ask for less. And we've already discounted what we actually wanted because we ask for less than what we would be willing to get past our discomfort for. So I would say, give yourself the chance to say, well, what would make me feel really uncomfortable asking and practice ask for what makes you uncomfortable rather than what makes you comfortable, because if you ask with what makes you comfortable, you're leaving potential value on the table.

Well said, I feel like you've saved the best for last there about leaning into the discomfort, And just to recap what you said earlier, that it means that if you do separate your intrinsic worth to the external value. Then you will no longer be afraid of rejection per se, because it's not a rejection of who you are. So regardless of the outcome, you know that you will walk away from that discussion hole if you like, if you didn't get that fifty percent discount on the bag, for example, She says, yeah, she says absolutely. Once again, you've been very generous with your time and your expertise. Thank you for chatting with us today. Thank you so much, Michelle, so lovely, Thank you very much. As always, you can send in any questions, comments, or even topics you'd love for us to cover. If you want to do a part two negotiations, do email us on podcasts at moneymag dot com dot au. And if you don't have your copy of Best of the Best, it is our special bumper issue on the best banking loans, best home loans, best managed funds, best value products and services. That's out. You can buy that online and at your newsstands in December all through January. That's it for this episode. I'm Michelle Baltazar. Bye for now.

Well said, I feel like you've saved the best for last there about leaning into the discomfort, And just to recap what you said earlier, that it means that if you do separate your intrinsic worth to the external value. Then you will no longer be afraid of rejection per se, because it's not a rejection of who you are. So regardless of the outcome, you know that you will walk away from that discussion hole if you like, if you didn't get that fifty percent discount on the bag, for example, She says, yeah, she says absolutely. Once again, you've been very generous with your time and your expertise. Thank you for chatting with us today. Thank you so much, Michelle, so lovely, Thank you very much. As always, you can send in any questions, comments, or even topics you'd love for us to cover. If you want to do a part two negotiations, do email us on podcasts at moneymag dot com dot au. And if you don't have your copy of Best of the Best, it is our special bumper issue on the best banking loans, best home loans, best managed funds, best value products and services. That's out. You can buy that online and at your newsstands in December all through January. That's it for this episode. I'm Michelle Baltazar. Bye for now.

Thanks for listening to the Friends with Money podcast for credible, independent and easy to understand financial commentary visit moneymag dot com dot au. Please remember that the views and opinions expressed in this podcast are general in nature and further independent advice and research based on your personal circumstances should be sought before making an investment decision

Thanks for listening to the Friends with Money podcast for credible, independent and easy to understand financial commentary visit moneymag dot com dot au. Please remember that the views and opinions expressed in this podcast are general in nature and further independent advice and research based on your personal circumstances should be sought before making an investment decision