In the fall of twenty twenty three, Sam Altman was more powerful than he'd ever been. He and his armies of researchers had conquered new frontiers of technology and reaped the financial rewards. He had defeated those who challenged his power. Like Elon Musk, his dominance was cemented, or so it seemed. Though he occupied the throne, there was in fact a powerful and mysterious board that governed him. They had the ability to fire him, to dissolve the whole company if they saw fit. On this board there were six people, and one of them was a woman named Helen Toner. She was a researcher who studied AI systems, and you can hear her passion here on the TED stage.

In the fall of twenty twenty three, Sam Altman was more powerful than he'd ever been. He and his armies of researchers had conquered new frontiers of technology and reaped the financial rewards. He had defeated those who challenged his power. Like Elon Musk, his dominance was cemented, or so it seemed. Though he occupied the throne, there was in fact a powerful and mysterious board that governed him. They had the ability to fire him, to dissolve the whole company if they saw fit. On this board there were six people, and one of them was a woman named Helen Toner. She was a researcher who studied AI systems, and you can hear her passion here on the TED stage.

AI is already all around us, so we can't just sit around and wait for things to become clearer.

AI is already all around us, so we can't just sit around and wait for things to become clearer.

In October, we're twenty twenty three, Helen co authored a paper about various companies in the AI industry. As a researcher, Helen published lots of papers, but this one was not like the rest, because this one mentioned open AI and it wasn't fully complementary. Here's my colleague, Sharene Gafari.

In October, we're twenty twenty three, Helen co authored a paper about various companies in the AI industry. As a researcher, Helen published lots of papers, but this one was not like the rest, because this one mentioned open AI and it wasn't fully complementary. Here's my colleague, Sharene Gafari.

Toward the end of this document, they contrast open Ai with a big competitor.

Toward the end of this document, they contrast open Ai with a big competitor.

The competitor is Anthropic, the rival company started by former open Ai employees, so it was a bit of a sensitive subject.

The competitor is Anthropic, the rival company started by former open Ai employees, so it was a bit of a sensitive subject.

And in part of that paper, basically they say that Anthropic was more safe and contrasts that with the release of open AI's chat GPT. You could read parts of it as sort of shining up Anthropic as a better model or example of how to be safe in terms of how it's releasing its Ai models.

And in part of that paper, basically they say that Anthropic was more safe and contrasts that with the release of open AI's chat GPT. You could read parts of it as sort of shining up Anthropic as a better model or example of how to be safe in terms of how it's releasing its Ai models.

Now, Helen's paper only mentioned open Ai and Nthropic briefly, and it's overall pretty benign comment, but Sam didn't like it. He was upset. According to our reporting, Sam started back channeling, talking to one board member then another to try to gain their support to vote Helen out. He would approach someone and say this other person agrees with me, when sometimes that wasn't the case. A source told us that at one point he said that a board member had said Helen's obviously got to go, when in fact that board member was on Helen's side.

Now, Helen's paper only mentioned open Ai and Nthropic briefly, and it's overall pretty benign comment, but Sam didn't like it. He was upset. According to our reporting, Sam started back channeling, talking to one board member then another to try to gain their support to vote Helen out. He would approach someone and say this other person agrees with me, when sometimes that wasn't the case. A source told us that at one point he said that a board member had said Helen's obviously got to go, when in fact that board member was on Helen's side.

Sam started lying to other board members in order to try and push me off the board. We were already talking pretty seriously about whether we needed to fire him after years of this kind of thing. All four of us who fired him came to the conclusion that we just couldn't believe things that Sam was telling us.

Sam started lying to other board members in order to try and push me off the board. We were already talking pretty seriously about whether we needed to fire him after years of this kind of thing. All four of us who fired him came to the conclusion that we just couldn't believe things that Sam was telling us.

That's Helen on the ted Ai show about six months after this all went down. This is the first time she publicly and unambiguously accused Sam of lying. She said that the board saw through his tactics and it pushed them to take dramatic action. By the way, we did talk to an Open AYE spokesperson about Sam's alleged back channeling. They told us that this account significantly differs from Sam's recollection of these conversations, and they did not respond to a list of questions that we sent them about this episode. Overall, here's my colleague Rachel Metz.

That's Helen on the ted Ai show about six months after this all went down. This is the first time she publicly and unambiguously accused Sam of lying. She said that the board saw through his tactics and it pushed them to take dramatic action. By the way, we did talk to an Open AYE spokesperson about Sam's alleged back channeling. They told us that this account significantly differs from Sam's recollection of these conversations, and they did not respond to a list of questions that we sent them about this episode. Overall, here's my colleague Rachel Metz.

Sam's trying to get them to remove Helen from the board, but the board members feel like they're being manipulated and perhaps hearing different people hearing different things. In the end, instead of getting rid of Helen, the board decides to get rid of Sam.

Sam's trying to get them to remove Helen from the board, but the board members feel like they're being manipulated and perhaps hearing different people hearing different things. In the end, instead of getting rid of Helen, the board decides to get rid of Sam.

What happened with Helen's paper wasn't an isolated incident. It was part of a bigger pattern of Sam's behavior. According to our reporting, the board members had lost trust in him over time. Helen says in the interview that Sam had a habit of misrepresenting and withholding information, even outright lining, which made it difficult for the board to do its job. That job is to uphold the mission of open AI, to ensure that advanced AI benefits all of humanity. And the board members were starting to believe Sam was a threat to that mission, so they start turning on Sam. In particular, one very important, very surprising board member goes behind Sam's back, Ilia sitt Skiver. Ilia one of Sam's co founders. He had been there from day one, and he was the AI researcher driving much of open AI's technological progress. In fact, when Elon Musk goes on CNBC to boast about his own role at open AI, he name checks Ilia.

What happened with Helen's paper wasn't an isolated incident. It was part of a bigger pattern of Sam's behavior. According to our reporting, the board members had lost trust in him over time. Helen says in the interview that Sam had a habit of misrepresenting and withholding information, even outright lining, which made it difficult for the board to do its job. That job is to uphold the mission of open AI, to ensure that advanced AI benefits all of humanity. And the board members were starting to believe Sam was a threat to that mission, so they start turning on Sam. In particular, one very important, very surprising board member goes behind Sam's back, Ilia sitt Skiver. Ilia one of Sam's co founders. He had been there from day one, and he was the AI researcher driving much of open AI's technological progress. In fact, when Elon Musk goes on CNBC to boast about his own role at open AI, he name checks Ilia.

I am the reason OpenAI exists. I was instrumental in cruiting the key scientists and engineers, most specifically, most notably Ilia Soskayer, and ultimately decided to join opening And really, Ilia joining was the was the lynchmann for Opening I being ultimately successful.

I am the reason OpenAI exists. I was instrumental in cruiting the key scientists and engineers, most specifically, most notably Ilia Soskayer, and ultimately decided to join opening And really, Ilia joining was the was the lynchmann for Opening I being ultimately successful.

You're very disappointed.

You're very disappointed.

Ilia and Helen talked and two of the other board members joined these conversations as well, and together they came up with a secret plan. They would ambush Sam and remove him from power for the good of humanity. You're listening to Foundering. I'm your host Ellen Hewitt. In today's episode, our final one for this series, will take you inside the events that rocked open Ai last November. We'll cover how Sam Altman was thrown out of his own company and the series of chaotic events that followed. It's a five day white knuckle boardroom drama, shock, betrayal, midnight negotiations. You may think you know the story of the open Ai coup, but will help you understand what happened behind the scenes, how it all played out, and what it says about Sam. The board members saw Sam as deceptive and manipulative. In this episode, we'll dive into that question ourselves. When Sam says something, can we trust it? We'll be right back. Sam has always emphasized that it's very, very important that he be able to be fired. As an example, he set it in front of his employees at an all hands meeting in twenty nineteen. Here's Reid Hoffman, the co founder of LinkedIn and a famous venture capitalist. He had recently joined the Open Ai board, and Sam brought him up to talk on stage.

Ilia and Helen talked and two of the other board members joined these conversations as well, and together they came up with a secret plan. They would ambush Sam and remove him from power for the good of humanity. You're listening to Foundering. I'm your host Ellen Hewitt. In today's episode, our final one for this series, will take you inside the events that rocked open Ai last November. We'll cover how Sam Altman was thrown out of his own company and the series of chaotic events that followed. It's a five day white knuckle boardroom drama, shock, betrayal, midnight negotiations. You may think you know the story of the open Ai coup, but will help you understand what happened behind the scenes, how it all played out, and what it says about Sam. The board members saw Sam as deceptive and manipulative. In this episode, we'll dive into that question ourselves. When Sam says something, can we trust it? We'll be right back. Sam has always emphasized that it's very, very important that he be able to be fired. As an example, he set it in front of his employees at an all hands meeting in twenty nineteen. Here's Reid Hoffman, the co founder of LinkedIn and a famous venture capitalist. He had recently joined the Open Ai board, and Sam brought him up to talk on stage.

He ambushed me with the following question, which is, what will you do if I'm not doing my job? And I was like, oh, I've never been asked this by a CEO in front of a company all hands before. This is the internal thought track. I was like, well, I'll help you, right, because like, oh, help you do the job the right ways, you know, because I'm like, what the hell, Sam, what you're asking me this question? And he said no, no, okay, say that doesn't work and I'm still not doing my job.

He ambushed me with the following question, which is, what will you do if I'm not doing my job? And I was like, oh, I've never been asked this by a CEO in front of a company all hands before. This is the internal thought track. I was like, well, I'll help you, right, because like, oh, help you do the job the right ways, you know, because I'm like, what the hell, Sam, what you're asking me this question? And he said no, no, okay, say that doesn't work and I'm still not doing my job.

What do you do?

What do you do?

I'm like, well, okay, I fire you, like we get a new CEO. And he's like, okay, great, And I was like, okay, Like, never been asked by a CEO in front of the entire company whether or not I would fire them if they weren't doing the job.

I'm like, well, okay, I fire you, like we get a new CEO. And he's like, okay, great, And I was like, okay, Like, never been asked by a CEO in front of the entire company whether or not I would fire them if they weren't doing the job.

Wow, that's refreshing. A CEO who wants to be held accountable, A CEO who wants to be fireable. What a principled guy. It makes you do a double take. On his media tour in twenty twenty three, after the success of Chat GPT, Sam makes this point not just to his employees but to the world. In speech after speech, he emphasizes just how fiable he is and how good that is. He told an interviewer, I serve at the pleasure of the board. I do this the old fashioned way. Or the board can just decide to replace the CEO, he said at a Bloomberg conference.

Wow, that's refreshing. A CEO who wants to be held accountable, A CEO who wants to be fireable. What a principled guy. It makes you do a double take. On his media tour in twenty twenty three, after the success of Chat GPT, Sam makes this point not just to his employees but to the world. In speech after speech, he emphasizes just how fiable he is and how good that is. He told an interviewer, I serve at the pleasure of the board. I do this the old fashioned way. Or the board can just decide to replace the CEO, he said at a Bloomberg conference.

The board can fire me. I think that's important.

The board can fire me. I think that's important.

The board can fire me. The board can replace me whenever they want. It sounds so humble. He had made this a part of his brand, and I think it's meant to convey that open ai is a different kind of company and he is a different kind of CEO. There's another way that Sam signals his good intentions. Here he doesn't own any equity in open Ai. This is unusual. Most startup founders own a big slice of their company. If the company becomes really valuable, that means the founder gets rich. Sam originally didn't take equity because of a specific rule related to open ai being a nonprofit. Then he just didn't take any more. Here he is with my colleague Emily Chang.

The board can fire me. The board can replace me whenever they want. It sounds so humble. He had made this a part of his brand, and I think it's meant to convey that open ai is a different kind of company and he is a different kind of CEO. There's another way that Sam signals his good intentions. Here he doesn't own any equity in open Ai. This is unusual. Most startup founders own a big slice of their company. If the company becomes really valuable, that means the founder gets rich. Sam originally didn't take equity because of a specific rule related to open ai being a nonprofit. Then he just didn't take any more. Here he is with my colleague Emily Chang.

So to be clear, like if open ai, you know, is massively profitable, you won't benefit financially.

So to be clear, like if open ai, you know, is massively profitable, you won't benefit financially.

One of the takeaways I've learned from questions like this is that this like concept of having enough money is not something that is easy to get across to other people.

One of the takeaways I've learned from questions like this is that this like concept of having enough money is not something that is easy to get across to other people.

It's hard for people to understand.

It's hard for people to understand.

But I like, I have enough money.

But I like, I have enough money.

I'm gonna make The thing is Sam's already rich, He's a billionaire from his startup investments. But he often makes this point that he has no equity, that he's not doing open Ai for the money. It's another way for Sam to make himself sound non threatening. He uses it to earn our trust by suggesting he can occupy this very powerful position while remaining pure of heart. To his credit, I think he's being somewhat earnest here. He's acknowledging that he has a lot of money already and will make lots more Separate from open Ai. Focusing on money is a bit of a distraction, though. Even if Sam isn't driven by money, he can still be hungry for other perks that come with running open Ai. Power, fame, influence. Okay, Now, this story picks up in November twenty twenty three. Sam is at the peak of his game. His company is valued at eighty six billion dollars. Open ai just held its first Developer's Day.

I'm gonna make The thing is Sam's already rich, He's a billionaire from his startup investments. But he often makes this point that he has no equity, that he's not doing open Ai for the money. It's another way for Sam to make himself sound non threatening. He uses it to earn our trust by suggesting he can occupy this very powerful position while remaining pure of heart. To his credit, I think he's being somewhat earnest here. He's acknowledging that he has a lot of money already and will make lots more Separate from open Ai. Focusing on money is a bit of a distraction, though. Even if Sam isn't driven by money, he can still be hungry for other perks that come with running open Ai. Power, fame, influence. Okay, Now, this story picks up in November twenty twenty three. Sam is at the peak of his game. His company is valued at eighty six billion dollars. Open ai just held its first Developer's Day.

Please welcome to the stage, Sam Altman.

Please welcome to the stage, Sam Altman.

Good morning, Welcome to our first ever open Ai dev Day. We're thrilled that you're here and this energy is awesome.

Good morning, Welcome to our first ever open Ai dev Day. We're thrilled that you're here and this energy is awesome.

Month Sam is speaking at APEC, an international conference where world leaders are gathered in San Francisco. It's a Thursday evening. He steps off the stage, then zips over to Oakland to a warehouse that's associated with a burning Man Camp. He gives another interview, this time in front of a bunch of artists.

Month Sam is speaking at APEC, an international conference where world leaders are gathered in San Francisco. It's a Thursday evening. He steps off the stage, then zips over to Oakland to a warehouse that's associated with a burning Man Camp. He gives another interview, this time in front of a bunch of artists.

That desire to connect, that desire to know the human behind it and be part of that community. I think, in like a wash in a sea of tons of machine generated art, debt, desire for the human connection will go up.

That desire to connect, that desire to know the human behind it and be part of that community. I think, in like a wash in a sea of tons of machine generated art, debt, desire for the human connection will go up.

Knock down.

Knock down.

Sam's telling the artists that AI will actually be great for them. That night, Sam got a text from Ilia asking if they could talk the following day, Friday, at noon, Sam agreed he had no reason to believe anything was wrong. Next Sam flew to Las Vegas. According to the Wall Street Journal, he was hoping to catch a Formula one race that weekend. He's really into race cars and owns two McLaren's himself. So on Friday, he's in Vegas. At noon, Sam clicked on a link to a Google meet. He was met with four board members of open ai, including Ilia and Helen. It was almost the entire board, but one person was missing, Greg Brockman, president of open Ai, Sam's co founder and his closest ally. The board didn't need Greg to be there. They already had four votes out of six. Ilia delivered the news, Sam, You're fired. Sam was as shocked as anyone. The call was short. At twelve nineteen, Ilia texted Greg asking to talk. At twelve twenty three, Greg also clicked on a Google meet link. They told Greg that he was being removed from the board and that Sam was out. Things were kicking into action fast. Open Ai published a blog post. It said that the board had done a review and decided to remove Sam because he was quote not consistently candid in his communications with the board, and they added the board no longer has confidence in his ability to continue leading open Ai. Here's my colleague, Rachel Metz.

Sam's telling the artists that AI will actually be great for them. That night, Sam got a text from Ilia asking if they could talk the following day, Friday, at noon, Sam agreed he had no reason to believe anything was wrong. Next Sam flew to Las Vegas. According to the Wall Street Journal, he was hoping to catch a Formula one race that weekend. He's really into race cars and owns two McLaren's himself. So on Friday, he's in Vegas. At noon, Sam clicked on a link to a Google meet. He was met with four board members of open ai, including Ilia and Helen. It was almost the entire board, but one person was missing, Greg Brockman, president of open Ai, Sam's co founder and his closest ally. The board didn't need Greg to be there. They already had four votes out of six. Ilia delivered the news, Sam, You're fired. Sam was as shocked as anyone. The call was short. At twelve nineteen, Ilia texted Greg asking to talk. At twelve twenty three, Greg also clicked on a Google meet link. They told Greg that he was being removed from the board and that Sam was out. Things were kicking into action fast. Open Ai published a blog post. It said that the board had done a review and decided to remove Sam because he was quote not consistently candid in his communications with the board, and they added the board no longer has confidence in his ability to continue leading open Ai. Here's my colleague, Rachel Metz.

The first few lines of it, I didn't really understand what was happening, and it took me a few seconds to have that oh shit, mom.

The first few lines of it, I didn't really understand what was happening, and it took me a few seconds to have that oh shit, mom.

L oh, we need to get back to some big break you news that just crossed the wire, learning that Sam Altman is leaving Open AI and we now have a few more details on this. We're learning that the decision was not voluntary.

L oh, we need to get back to some big break you news that just crossed the wire, learning that Sam Altman is leaving Open AI and we now have a few more details on this. We're learning that the decision was not voluntary.

At the point.

At the point.

And here's my colleague Sharen.

And here's my colleague Sharen.

This was one of the moments that I feel like will be a shocking news moment of my career for a business tech story. This is about as dramatic as it gets.

This was one of the moments that I feel like will be a shocking news moment of my career for a business tech story. This is about as dramatic as it gets.

The most surprising part of this was that a major force behind this coup seemed to be Ilia.

The most surprising part of this was that a major force behind this coup seemed to be Ilia.

Yeah, and I mean Ilia plays a key role in this whole ouster. He is the brutus to Sam Caesar and this is a huge betrayal. I mean, this is the guy that's been working side by side with Sam with Greg Brockmann, right and they're riding high at the peak of their success right now. They should be a happy trio.

Yeah, and I mean Ilia plays a key role in this whole ouster. He is the brutus to Sam Caesar and this is a huge betrayal. I mean, this is the guy that's been working side by side with Sam with Greg Brockmann, right and they're riding high at the peak of their success right now. They should be a happy trio.

Like.

Like.

It's just sort of a complete dissolution of what from the outside looked like such a successful.

It's just sort of a complete dissolution of what from the outside looked like such a successful.

Partnership at two Ilia. We can't know what was going on inside Ilia's head at that moment, but think about the enormity of this all the board had planned this in total secrecy because they suspected Sam might outmaneuver them if he knew. They hadn't even told Microsoft until a few minutes before they told Sam. They decided it had to be cloak and dagger, an ambush, a stabbing at the Senate. Ilia was also turning his back on Greg Brockman. Greg was a staunch ally of Sam, so the board had excluded him from their meetings about this plan, and they booted him from the board. For Ilia, this had to feel heavy. He and Greg had been close back in the early idealistic days of open Ai. It was the two of them running things, Greg chugging away at the business and Ilia dreaming up their research projects. I mean Ilia had officiated Greg's wedding. Now that relationship was severed. Right after the blog post went out, Greg tweeted that he was resigning from open ai in solidarity with Sam. The board announced that the interim CEO was Mira Murradi, an open Ai executive, on Friday afternoon. Then well into the night, reporters were calling, texting, talking to sources trying to figure out what the hell was going on. Here's Sharene and Rachel again.

Partnership at two Ilia. We can't know what was going on inside Ilia's head at that moment, but think about the enormity of this all the board had planned this in total secrecy because they suspected Sam might outmaneuver them if he knew. They hadn't even told Microsoft until a few minutes before they told Sam. They decided it had to be cloak and dagger, an ambush, a stabbing at the Senate. Ilia was also turning his back on Greg Brockman. Greg was a staunch ally of Sam, so the board had excluded him from their meetings about this plan, and they booted him from the board. For Ilia, this had to feel heavy. He and Greg had been close back in the early idealistic days of open Ai. It was the two of them running things, Greg chugging away at the business and Ilia dreaming up their research projects. I mean Ilia had officiated Greg's wedding. Now that relationship was severed. Right after the blog post went out, Greg tweeted that he was resigning from open ai in solidarity with Sam. The board announced that the interim CEO was Mira Murradi, an open Ai executive, on Friday afternoon. Then well into the night, reporters were calling, texting, talking to sources trying to figure out what the hell was going on. Here's Sharene and Rachel again.

I was a scramble to figure out, well, why are you saying that he's lied, and if so.

I was a scramble to figure out, well, why are you saying that he's lied, and if so.

What did he lie about?

What did he lie about?

The board statement was so brief and so vague that it left all this room open for speculation.

The board statement was so brief and so vague that it left all this room open for speculation.

Everyone was obsessed with one phrase from the memo, not consistently candid. The board was all but saying that Sam had been a sneaky liar, but they were also vague about the details. Reporters weren't the only people who jumped on this. A former open ai employee named Jeffrey Irving tweeted that although Sam was always nice to him, he lied to him on various occasions too, and he said that Sam was deceptive and manipulative to others that he knew. Jeffrey didn't respond when we asked him to clarify. The Internet, especially Twitter, flooded with theories about why Sam had been fired. Many of them were completely speculative. Had Ilia glimpsed some kind of advanced AGI internally and freaked out and wanted to hit a kill switch? The question became a meme on social media. What did Ilia see? Anyway? While everyone was trying to answer that, the weekend descended into chaos On Friday, Sam and Greg thought they were just going to pack up and start a new company, I guess, and Open AI's board members were looking for a permanent CEO to take over. But on Saturday, a new idea came into the picture that Sam should come back. Investors and employees started pressuring the remaining board members to undo their decision and reinstate Sam.

Everyone was obsessed with one phrase from the memo, not consistently candid. The board was all but saying that Sam had been a sneaky liar, but they were also vague about the details. Reporters weren't the only people who jumped on this. A former open ai employee named Jeffrey Irving tweeted that although Sam was always nice to him, he lied to him on various occasions too, and he said that Sam was deceptive and manipulative to others that he knew. Jeffrey didn't respond when we asked him to clarify. The Internet, especially Twitter, flooded with theories about why Sam had been fired. Many of them were completely speculative. Had Ilia glimpsed some kind of advanced AGI internally and freaked out and wanted to hit a kill switch? The question became a meme on social media. What did Ilia see? Anyway? While everyone was trying to answer that, the weekend descended into chaos On Friday, Sam and Greg thought they were just going to pack up and start a new company, I guess, and Open AI's board members were looking for a permanent CEO to take over. But on Saturday, a new idea came into the picture that Sam should come back. Investors and employees started pressuring the remaining board members to undo their decision and reinstate Sam.

Back to the open AI story. It is still the top story. What is happening within open AI HQ three miles from where I'm standing? Is Sam Altman coming back?

Back to the open AI story. It is still the top story. What is happening within open AI HQ three miles from where I'm standing? Is Sam Altman coming back?

On not?

On not?

I'm parked hoodside of open Aey's offices on Sunday with a handful of other AI reporters trying to see you know, Sam's reportedly in the open a office negotiating a comeback. So I go there. I'm like, you know, hanging out outside. I'm like looking, can we see Sam coming out or leaving?

I'm parked hoodside of open Aey's offices on Sunday with a handful of other AI reporters trying to see you know, Sam's reportedly in the open a office negotiating a comeback. So I go there. I'm like, you know, hanging out outside. I'm like looking, can we see Sam coming out or leaving?

And like waiting for a new pope to be named? You know, you're waiting for the smoke signal to come up.

And like waiting for a new pope to be named? You know, you're waiting for the smoke signal to come up.

Totally, it was like waiting for a smoke signal from the pope.

Totally, it was like waiting for a smoke signal from the pope.

The twists kept coming on Sunday night.

The twists kept coming on Sunday night.

The situation it just continues to unfold, and it's chaotic. Certainly has been for the last few days of boardroom coup investors pushing for Altman's return.

The situation it just continues to unfold, and it's chaotic. Certainly has been for the last few days of boardroom coup investors pushing for Altman's return.

Okay, fast forward to present day. This is the latest. After a game of musical chairs, Microsoft announces that Altman and his co founder Greg Brockman will join Microsoft. This announce on literally on the heels of a frenetic weekend in Silicon Valley following the aftermath of Altman's firing on Friday, Microsoft.

Okay, fast forward to present day. This is the latest. After a game of musical chairs, Microsoft announces that Altman and his co founder Greg Brockman will join Microsoft. This announce on literally on the heels of a frenetic weekend in Silicon Valley following the aftermath of Altman's firing on Friday, Microsoft.

Shads in addition to hiring Sam and Greg, Microsoft actually offers to hire any open ai employee who wants to leave to join them. At the same time, the open ai board has stayed firm even as talks were progressing about maybe bringing Sam back. The board made a new announcement late Sunday.

Shads in addition to hiring Sam and Greg, Microsoft actually offers to hire any open ai employee who wants to leave to join them. At the same time, the open ai board has stayed firm even as talks were progressing about maybe bringing Sam back. The board made a new announcement late Sunday.

Emmitt Sheer was appointed interim CEO of open Ai after the board quietly vetted candidates starting on Saturday night.

Emmitt Sheer was appointed interim CEO of open Ai after the board quietly vetted candidates starting on Saturday night.

Emmett Sheer the co founder of Twitch. The board had been scrambling to find an interim CEO, and this is who they got. Emmett was a funny choice for a couple reasons. He was actually one of the other founders in that very first batch of y combinator with Sam almost twenty years earlier, and he has also said publicly that he worries a lot about AI going rogue and destroying the world. You can hear a mix of confidence and fear in his voice on the Logan Bartlett podcast when he talked in twenty twenty three about super intelligent AI, and.

Emmett Sheer the co founder of Twitch. The board had been scrambling to find an interim CEO, and this is who they got. Emmett was a funny choice for a couple reasons. He was actually one of the other founders in that very first batch of y combinator with Sam almost twenty years earlier, and he has also said publicly that he worries a lot about AI going rogue and destroying the world. You can hear a mix of confidence and fear in his voice on the Logan Bartlett podcast when he talked in twenty twenty three about super intelligent AI, and.

That kind of intelligence is just an intrinsically very dangerous thing because intelligence is power. Human beings are the dominant form of life on this planet pretty much entirely because we're more smarter than the other creatures. It's like a universe destroying bomb. Like this is not a figure it out later thing. This is like a big problem Southern Manhattan, Miami.

That kind of intelligence is just an intrinsically very dangerous thing because intelligence is power. Human beings are the dominant form of life on this planet pretty much entirely because we're more smarter than the other creatures. It's like a universe destroying bomb. Like this is not a figure it out later thing. This is like a big problem Southern Manhattan, Miami.

Amidst all of this, things were getting really heated for Ilia. Of the four board members who voted to remove Sam, he's the only one who works at Open AI. He's there alongside other employees, so he was experiencing the decision in a much more direct way than anyone else on the board.

Amidst all of this, things were getting really heated for Ilia. Of the four board members who voted to remove Sam, he's the only one who works at Open AI. He's there alongside other employees, so he was experiencing the decision in a much more direct way than anyone else on the board.

I think within the company also, you see a confusion as to Ilia's motivations, you know, and I knew We're hearing that sort of staff are bewildered or confused like why did Ilia do this? And that if he has a good reason that why doesn't he come out and say it. Ilia is a very visible, well known and previously seemingly well liked person at open Ai, and all of a sudden, you know, you have staff feeling like who is this guy? Like why did he turn on Sam? And why did he sort of screw our company? Or and why did he you know, put us in this position?

I think within the company also, you see a confusion as to Ilia's motivations, you know, and I knew We're hearing that sort of staff are bewildered or confused like why did Ilia do this? And that if he has a good reason that why doesn't he come out and say it. Ilia is a very visible, well known and previously seemingly well liked person at open Ai, and all of a sudden, you know, you have staff feeling like who is this guy? Like why did he turn on Sam? And why did he sort of screw our company? Or and why did he you know, put us in this position?

Now?

Now?

Open Ai employees were confused and starting to get angry. They were rapidly souring on the board, including Ilia. On Sunday, Ilia invited open Ai employees to an all hands meeting.

Open Ai employees were confused and starting to get angry. They were rapidly souring on the board, including Ilia. On Sunday, Ilia invited open Ai employees to an all hands meeting.

And basically no one shows up. Very few people, right, and it's clear that he just doesn't have the support of his company, and you know, people are furious with him.

And basically no one shows up. Very few people, right, and it's clear that he just doesn't have the support of his company, and you know, people are furious with him.

I think, in part, what all this did was show the board members who had forced out Sam Altman that there was a lot more employee loyalty than they had thought there was, and that they may have actually kicked off a complete revolt inside the company.

I think, in part, what all this did was show the board members who had forced out Sam Altman that there was a lot more employee loyalty than they had thought there was, and that they may have actually kicked off a complete revolt inside the company.

And Ilia was also getting other sorts of pressure. According to The Wall Street Journal, Greg Brockman's wife Anna had a tearful conversation with Ilia in the lobby of open Ai that Sunday evening. She was pleading with him to reconsider his plan to change his mind and bring Sam back. Around one thirty am Monday morning, a group of fed up open ai employees drafted a letter to the board. They said the way the board had fired Sam and hadn't given an adequate explanation had shown they weren't capable of leading the company.

And Ilia was also getting other sorts of pressure. According to The Wall Street Journal, Greg Brockman's wife Anna had a tearful conversation with Ilia in the lobby of open Ai that Sunday evening. She was pleading with him to reconsider his plan to change his mind and bring Sam back. Around one thirty am Monday morning, a group of fed up open ai employees drafted a letter to the board. They said the way the board had fired Sam and hadn't given an adequate explanation had shown they weren't capable of leading the company.

I woke up early the next morning to see people were signing petitions saying they were going to leave the company if Sam didn't come back. This is hundreds, quickly, hundreds and hundreds. In the end, almost all of the company's nearly eight hundred employees signed this, posting on social media that open ai is nothing without its people. This becomes sort of a viral tagline that you see all over on x and it seems organic and fast moving and sincere.

I woke up early the next morning to see people were signing petitions saying they were going to leave the company if Sam didn't come back. This is hundreds, quickly, hundreds and hundreds. In the end, almost all of the company's nearly eight hundred employees signed this, posting on social media that open ai is nothing without its people. This becomes sort of a viral tagline that you see all over on x and it seems organic and fast moving and sincere.

Soon Twitter is full of these declarations. Sam and Greg start replying to the tweets with heart emojis. It was an impressive display of loyalty.

Soon Twitter is full of these declarations. Sam and Greg start replying to the tweets with heart emojis. It was an impressive display of loyalty.

Open Ai investors are still trying to return co founder Sam Outman to a leadership role at the company. At the same time, open ai staff are threatening mass mutiny, saying they'll follow Outman to Microsoft unless the board resigns Microhoe.

Open Ai investors are still trying to return co founder Sam Outman to a leadership role at the company. At the same time, open ai staff are threatening mass mutiny, saying they'll follow Outman to Microsoft unless the board resigns Microhoe.

In addition to heart emojis and support and loyalty, there was another factor at play as well. Money. Right before the coup, open Ai had been organizing a share sale for its employees, letting employees cash out some of their equity. Now, with all this chaos us that sale was in danger. There was a lot of money at stake.

In addition to heart emojis and support and loyalty, there was another factor at play as well. Money. Right before the coup, open Ai had been organizing a share sale for its employees, letting employees cash out some of their equity. Now, with all this chaos us that sale was in danger. There was a lot of money at stake.

This could create a whole new class of basically overnight millionaires, and they're looking forward to this, and then now you have the entire future of the company sort of up in the air. Certain investors are saying that they may not continue with the tender offer if Sam doesn't come back. So you know, goodbye to that house you were planning on buying, or that early retirement you wanted to do.

This could create a whole new class of basically overnight millionaires, and they're looking forward to this, and then now you have the entire future of the company sort of up in the air. Certain investors are saying that they may not continue with the tender offer if Sam doesn't come back. So you know, goodbye to that house you were planning on buying, or that early retirement you wanted to do.

So that's a pretty strong financial incentive to sign this letter, and you could imagine that if ninety five percent of your colleagues had signed a letter, there's significant pressure for you to sign it too. The craziest part of the petition is that it includes Ilia's name. By Monday morning, he has flipped. He tweeted, I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions. I never intended to harm open AI. I will do everything I can to reunite the company. Perhaps Ilia was swayed by the outpouring of support for Sam from the entire company, or maybe he folded because he realized his position was not looking strong here' Sharen.

So that's a pretty strong financial incentive to sign this letter, and you could imagine that if ninety five percent of your colleagues had signed a letter, there's significant pressure for you to sign it too. The craziest part of the petition is that it includes Ilia's name. By Monday morning, he has flipped. He tweeted, I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions. I never intended to harm open AI. I will do everything I can to reunite the company. Perhaps Ilia was swayed by the outpouring of support for Sam from the entire company, or maybe he folded because he realized his position was not looking strong here' Sharen.

I think you know, if you're Ilia, you also he was feeling so much pressure from his fellow colleagues and peers. You know, you have this overwhelming flood of people sort of making fun of Ilia and the board and or saying like how could you do this, and just sort of not taking this new leadership seriously. And so if you're Iliah, you know you have to be like really asking yourself if what the path forward is here? And so, you know, it kind of makes sense why he ends up reversing his decision and doing it complete when Ady in a couple of.

I think you know, if you're Ilia, you also he was feeling so much pressure from his fellow colleagues and peers. You know, you have this overwhelming flood of people sort of making fun of Ilia and the board and or saying like how could you do this, and just sort of not taking this new leadership seriously. And so if you're Iliah, you know you have to be like really asking yourself if what the path forward is here? And so, you know, it kind of makes sense why he ends up reversing his decision and doing it complete when Ady in a couple of.

Days, once Ilia flipped back to team Sam, and after all those employees had signed that letter, that was the beginning of the end of this effort to fire Sam. The remaining board members realized they had lost. They gave up on trying to get rid of Sam, and instead focused on trying to get some concessions, like keeping him off the board until an investigation could be done into his conduct. Monday and Tuesday were hectic days full of negotiations on how to bring Sam back. In just a few days, Sam had grappled his way into a dominant position once again. Now, the question in these tense negotiations wasn't if Sam could be allowed back, it was how do we please Sam?

Days, once Ilia flipped back to team Sam, and after all those employees had signed that letter, that was the beginning of the end of this effort to fire Sam. The remaining board members realized they had lost. They gave up on trying to get rid of Sam, and instead focused on trying to get some concessions, like keeping him off the board until an investigation could be done into his conduct. Monday and Tuesday were hectic days full of negotiations on how to bring Sam back. In just a few days, Sam had grappled his way into a dominant position once again. Now, the question in these tense negotiations wasn't if Sam could be allowed back, it was how do we please Sam?

So all of a sudden, this board that orchestrates acup sort of loses their leverage and Sam just seems like kind of holds all the cards, and it becomes about, well, how can we make a deal that Sam is amenable to.

So all of a sudden, this board that orchestrates acup sort of loses their leverage and Sam just seems like kind of holds all the cards, and it becomes about, well, how can we make a deal that Sam is amenable to.

By Tuesday night, they've reached a deal. The board is going to be overhauled. Helen is out, as is another board member who voted against Sam. Ilia is off the board too, though he's still working at open AI. New board members will be found. Most importantly, Sam returns as CEO Greg comes back too. Greg tweets a celebratory picture to mark the occasion.

By Tuesday night, they've reached a deal. The board is going to be overhauled. Helen is out, as is another board member who voted against Sam. Ilia is off the board too, though he's still working at open AI. New board members will be found. Most importantly, Sam returns as CEO Greg comes back too. Greg tweets a celebratory picture to mark the occasion.

So, after Sam gets reinstated a CEO, Greg Brockman goes on x and he posts this selfie with a bunch of staff members like huddled behind him, and they're all grinning ear to ear and we're holding at peace signs, and he posts we are so back, which just sums up the mood so well. Right, they're jubilant, they're just like partying. You know, this is a complete win, that's right.

So, after Sam gets reinstated a CEO, Greg Brockman goes on x and he posts this selfie with a bunch of staff members like huddled behind him, and they're all grinning ear to ear and we're holding at peace signs, and he posts we are so back, which just sums up the mood so well. Right, they're jubilant, they're just like partying. You know, this is a complete win, that's right.

They sent a company wide memo that night telling people to come to the office to party. It's an unbelievable turnaround. In just five days, Sam went from being ambushed to being back as CEO, with his enemies cast out and an army of employees willing to give up their jobs on his behalf. In this version of the story, Caesar rises from the dead.

They sent a company wide memo that night telling people to come to the office to party. It's an unbelievable turnaround. In just five days, Sam went from being ambushed to being back as CEO, with his enemies cast out and an army of employees willing to give up their jobs on his behalf. In this version of the story, Caesar rises from the dead.

He really does come back, in my view, stronger than ever because he not only has you know, this new board that's that's he's helped hand select, but he has the entire backing of his company and this implicit kind of card that he can pull it if at any point, you know, he wants to, like Microsoft, will, We'll back him up. We'll have a spot for him and all the employees who want to leave and go start their own version of the company. And so yeah, I think Sam, in many ways, it's sort of like, if you come for the King, you best not miss like they really missed.

He really does come back, in my view, stronger than ever because he not only has you know, this new board that's that's he's helped hand select, but he has the entire backing of his company and this implicit kind of card that he can pull it if at any point, you know, he wants to, like Microsoft, will, We'll back him up. We'll have a spot for him and all the employees who want to leave and go start their own version of the company. And so yeah, I think Sam, in many ways, it's sort of like, if you come for the King, you best not miss like they really missed.

We'll be right back. So after five dramatic head spinning days, Sam was back. It was late Tuesday night. That week open Ai was actually off. It was a week of Thanksgiving, so the employees breathed a sigh of relief and tried to enjoy the holiday. And once that week was over and people got back to work, there was still this question that was never really answered. Why did Ilia and the others believe they should fire Sam. Sam and open Ai have never answered this question in a public transparent way. As part of the deal to bring back Sam, open Ai agreed to hire a law firm to lead an external investigation into the events that led to Sam's ouster. The company was not required to share the details of the investigation publicly, so surprise, they didn't. They held a press conference and summarized the findings, and.

We'll be right back. So after five dramatic head spinning days, Sam was back. It was late Tuesday night. That week open Ai was actually off. It was a week of Thanksgiving, so the employees breathed a sigh of relief and tried to enjoy the holiday. And once that week was over and people got back to work, there was still this question that was never really answered. Why did Ilia and the others believe they should fire Sam. Sam and open Ai have never answered this question in a public transparent way. As part of the deal to bring back Sam, open Ai agreed to hire a law firm to lead an external investigation into the events that led to Sam's ouster. The company was not required to share the details of the investigation publicly, so surprise, they didn't. They held a press conference and summarized the findings, and.

The special committee recommended in the full board expressed their full confidence in Sam Altman and Greg Brockman.

The special committee recommended in the full board expressed their full confidence in Sam Altman and Greg Brockman.

It was not super specific, but essentially it said that Altman had been cleared of wrongdoing.

It was not super specific, but essentially it said that Altman had been cleared of wrongdoing.

There was not a lot, There was no smoking gun. The report of the summary was very brief. We you know, as reporters have not seen the full investigation.

There was not a lot, There was no smoking gun. The report of the summary was very brief. We you know, as reporters have not seen the full investigation.

The press conference was really short. My colleague Rachel recorded this tape. You can hear her typing in the background. When it's Sam's turn to talk. He sounds really mumbly and begrudging. He makes a half hearted apology to Helen Toner, but it's easy to miss when I.

The press conference was really short. My colleague Rachel recorded this tape. You can hear her typing in the background. When it's Sam's turn to talk. He sounds really mumbly and begrudging. He makes a half hearted apology to Helen Toner, but it's easy to miss when I.

Believe that a former board member was harmon opening after the actions.

Believe that a former board member was harmon opening after the actions.

I think I could have.

I think I could have.

Handled that situation with more grace and care. I apologize for that. I wish I'd done it differently, and we'll learn from the future. I'm eager to move forward and to begin the collaborate with.

Handled that situation with more grace and care. I apologize for that. I wish I'd done it differently, and we'll learn from the future. I'm eager to move forward and to begin the collaborate with.

After the investigation concluded with a whimper, two board members who were kicked off, Helen Toner and Tasha McCauley, released a statement. It said, in part, as we told the investigators, deception, manipulation and resistance to throw oversight should be unacceptable. It's a carefully worded sentence, but it's also pretty clear to me that they're saying deception and manipulation played a big part in them deciding to fire Sam. After all the dust settled, Ilia remained a troubling question. Mark.

After the investigation concluded with a whimper, two board members who were kicked off, Helen Toner and Tasha McCauley, released a statement. It said, in part, as we told the investigators, deception, manipulation and resistance to throw oversight should be unacceptable. It's a carefully worded sentence, but it's also pretty clear to me that they're saying deception and manipulation played a big part in them deciding to fire Sam. After all the dust settled, Ilia remained a troubling question. Mark.

I think we still don't know Ilia's full motivation for turning on Sam. I think he in particular being the one who knows Sam so well, who's worked with him so closely, And that is a big question of like, why would you questions for the character of someone who you seemingly have a good relationship with.

I think we still don't know Ilia's full motivation for turning on Sam. I think he in particular being the one who knows Sam so well, who's worked with him so closely, And that is a big question of like, why would you questions for the character of someone who you seemingly have a good relationship with.

Ilia left Open AI in May, half a year after the coup. He spent those six months in purgatory, still an employee at the company, but rarely seen at the office, no public appearances. When reporters tried to reach him, they were sent to his lawyer, who almost never issued a statement. It got to the point where Sam even joked about it on podcasts. Here he is on Lex Friedman in March.

Ilia left Open AI in May, half a year after the coup. He spent those six months in purgatory, still an employee at the company, but rarely seen at the office, no public appearances. When reporters tried to reach him, they were sent to his lawyer, who almost never issued a statement. It got to the point where Sam even joked about it on podcasts. Here he is on Lex Friedman in March.

Let me ask you about Iliah.

Let me ask you about Iliah.

Is he being held hostage in a.

Is he being held hostage in a.

Secret nuclear facility?

Secret nuclear facility?

No?

No?

What about a regular secret facility? No, what about a nuclear, non secret facility?

What about a regular secret facility? No, what about a nuclear, non secret facility?

Not that I mean this is becoming.

Not that I mean this is becoming.

In the video, Sam is smiling. You can hear it in his voice. He deflects this question. He says, it's a question for Ilia. In all of this, Ilia seems to have been the most tragic figure the brilliant scientist who gave open Ai credibility and a competitive edge, who has been able to predict many of the changes in AI that made these recent advancements possible. But then he attempted to overthrow Sam and failed, becoming a pariah among the staff, and ultimately he did this to himself, maybe because of his beliefs about AI safety. Even though Sam was back as CEO, some serious rifts remained within open AI. After Ilia's departure was announced. His team fell apart. It had been the team focused on preventing disaster scenarios from AI. And what about Helen Toner, the board member who Sam tried to oust her paper helped kick off all of this. While since the coup, Helen has faced a lot of online trolling. People treated her like the villain in this saga. AI devotees castigated her as a decelerationist, someone who wants to slow down the advancement of AI. Martin Screlly called her and the other board members quote the most disgusting group of people who ever lived, which is funny because Martin Schrelly is commonly called the most hated man in America. I feel some sympathy For Helen, I think she may have seen herself as doing her job, first as an academic in writing her paper, and then as a board member in pushing back against a brazen CEO. For several months, Helen was largely silent about the whole ordeal until May twenty twenty four, when she gave the interview to the ted Ai Show. She sounds incredibly candid and confident in her criticisms of Sam.

In the video, Sam is smiling. You can hear it in his voice. He deflects this question. He says, it's a question for Ilia. In all of this, Ilia seems to have been the most tragic figure the brilliant scientist who gave open Ai credibility and a competitive edge, who has been able to predict many of the changes in AI that made these recent advancements possible. But then he attempted to overthrow Sam and failed, becoming a pariah among the staff, and ultimately he did this to himself, maybe because of his beliefs about AI safety. Even though Sam was back as CEO, some serious rifts remained within open AI. After Ilia's departure was announced. His team fell apart. It had been the team focused on preventing disaster scenarios from AI. And what about Helen Toner, the board member who Sam tried to oust her paper helped kick off all of this. While since the coup, Helen has faced a lot of online trolling. People treated her like the villain in this saga. AI devotees castigated her as a decelerationist, someone who wants to slow down the advancement of AI. Martin Screlly called her and the other board members quote the most disgusting group of people who ever lived, which is funny because Martin Schrelly is commonly called the most hated man in America. I feel some sympathy For Helen, I think she may have seen herself as doing her job, first as an academic in writing her paper, and then as a board member in pushing back against a brazen CEO. For several months, Helen was largely silent about the whole ordeal until May twenty twenty four, when she gave the interview to the ted Ai Show. She sounds incredibly candid and confident in her criticisms of Sam.

I think it's really important to know that has really gone under reported is how scared people are to go against Sam. They had experienced him retaliating against people retaliating against them for past instances of being critical. They were really afraid of what might happen to them. So it was very hard for those people who had had terrible experiences to actually say that for fear that, you know, if Sam did stay in power as he ultimately did, you know, that would make their lives miserable.

I think it's really important to know that has really gone under reported is how scared people are to go against Sam. They had experienced him retaliating against people retaliating against them for past instances of being critical. They were really afraid of what might happen to them. So it was very hard for those people who had had terrible experiences to actually say that for fear that, you know, if Sam did stay in power as he ultimately did, you know, that would make their lives miserable.

Meanwhile, Sam almost immediately picked up where he left off. He started doing press appearances again. He spoke at Davos in January, just a couple months after the saga. My colleague Bradstone asks him the question that's on everyone's minds I sort.

Meanwhile, Sam almost immediately picked up where he left off. He started doing press appearances again. He spoke at Davos in January, just a couple months after the saga. My colleague Bradstone asks him the question that's on everyone's minds I sort.

Of smiled because you came to the Bloomberg Tech conference in last June and Emily Chang asked it was something along along the lines of why should we trust you, and you very candidly says you shouldn't, and you said the board should be able to fire me if they want, and of course then they did, and you quite depthtely orchestrated your return.

Of smiled because you came to the Bloomberg Tech conference in last June and Emily Chang asked it was something along along the lines of why should we trust you, and you very candidly says you shouldn't, and you said the board should be able to fire me if they want, and of course then they did, and you quite depthtely orchestrated your return.

Actually, let me tell you something I the board did that. I was like, I think this is wild, super confused, super caught off guard, but this is the structure. And I immediately just went to go thinking about what I was going to do next. It was not until some board members called me the next morning that I even thought about really coming back. When they asked you to come back, I want to talk about that, but like the board did have all of the power there, No, you know what, I'm not going to say that next thing.

Actually, let me tell you something I the board did that. I was like, I think this is wild, super confused, super caught off guard, but this is the structure. And I immediately just went to go thinking about what I was going to do next. It was not until some board members called me the next morning that I even thought about really coming back. When they asked you to come back, I want to talk about that, but like the board did have all of the power there, No, you know what, I'm not going to say that next thing.

I think you should continue.

I think you should continue.

The audience laughs when Brad reminds Sam that he had said the board should be able to fire him right before he was fired, and Sam notably did not laugh. He didn't even crack a smile. He responds that the board wanted to bring him back on they had all the power there, not him, And then a third person on the panel, Anna Macanju, who's an executive at open Ai, jumps in.

The audience laughs when Brad reminds Sam that he had said the board should be able to fire him right before he was fired, and Sam notably did not laugh. He didn't even crack a smile. He responds that the board wanted to bring him back on they had all the power there, not him, And then a third person on the panel, Anna Macanju, who's an executive at open Ai, jumps in.

I would also just say that I think that there's a lot of narratives out there. It's like, oh, well, this was orchestrated by all these these other forces. It's not accurates. I mean, it was the employees of open Ai that wanted this, and that thought was the right thing for Sam to be back, you.

I would also just say that I think that there's a lot of narratives out there. It's like, oh, well, this was orchestrated by all these these other forces. It's not accurates. I mean, it was the employees of open Ai that wanted this, and that thought was the right thing for Sam to be back, you.

Know, like, yeah, I think I'll say is I think it's important that I have an entity that like canfire this, but that entity has got to have some accountability too, and that is a clear issue with what happened.

Know, like, yeah, I think I'll say is I think it's important that I have an entity that like canfire this, but that entity has got to have some accountability too, and that is a clear issue with what happened.

Of course.

Of course.

Okay, so Sam is saying his usual talking point that it's important that he can get fired, but he's adding a big caveat that the board needs to do things in the right way, and in this case they didn't. He's criticizing the board. Reid Hoffman agrees with Sam that the board was to blame for the whole fiasco. Reed had actually been on the board of open Ai for years, but left in early twenty twenty three, just months before the coup.

Okay, so Sam is saying his usual talking point that it's important that he can get fired, but he's adding a big caveat that the board needs to do things in the right way, and in this case they didn't. He's criticizing the board. Reid Hoffman agrees with Sam that the board was to blame for the whole fiasco. Reed had actually been on the board of open Ai for years, but left in early twenty twenty three, just months before the coup.

Well, when you look at the four board members who got together and fired Sam. Three of them had never really had experience in other boards and understand kind of board governance. They had so little experience that there were six board members. They didn't invite the fifth, Greg Brockman, because they presumably knew that he would disagree with them. And you think, well, basic board competence is you don't disinvite the board members who you can disagree with. You want to hear the disagreement, you want to talk about it.

Well, when you look at the four board members who got together and fired Sam. Three of them had never really had experience in other boards and understand kind of board governance. They had so little experience that there were six board members. They didn't invite the fifth, Greg Brockman, because they presumably knew that he would disagree with them. And you think, well, basic board competence is you don't disinvite the board members who you can disagree with. You want to hear the disagreement, you want to talk about it.

So he's dismissing them as a bunch of amateurs, which isn't entirely true because a few of the board members have served on other boards as well. We asked Reid to clarify, and he said they hadn't been on the boards of fast growing tech companies. I can kind of see where Reid and Sam are coming from. I'm sure they really believe the board acted inappropriately, but I also can't help but see it as someone saying, we have designed a system where I am accountable to you, you should hold me accountable. Then when it actually happens, they're shouting, no, wait, I didn't mean it like that.

So he's dismissing them as a bunch of amateurs, which isn't entirely true because a few of the board members have served on other boards as well. We asked Reid to clarify, and he said they hadn't been on the boards of fast growing tech companies. I can kind of see where Reid and Sam are coming from. I'm sure they really believe the board acted inappropriately, but I also can't help but see it as someone saying, we have designed a system where I am accountable to you, you should hold me accountable. Then when it actually happens, they're shouting, no, wait, I didn't mean it like that.

It all sounds and nice to say We're going to have this benevolent company that's kind of a nonprofit and kind of not and as his board that can fire at CEO at any time. And then in practice that turned out to be a lot less friendly than it may be sounded initially.

It all sounds and nice to say We're going to have this benevolent company that's kind of a nonprofit and kind of not and as his board that can fire at CEO at any time. And then in practice that turned out to be a lot less friendly than it may be sounded initially.

Okay, So I've spent a lot of time talking about Sam, what shaped him when he was young, how he speaks in public, how he acts in private, and over the course of the months I spent working on this podcast, I've observed one thing that I think is key to understanding Sam. Sam is slippery, especially when it comes to his words. I think it's fair to say that when he says something, you cannot be sure that he actually means it. An obvious example him saying he should be fired. He made it sound so clear, so obvious, no caveats. Then he got fired, and all of a sudden, that promise doesn't apply. Here's another example. Sam loves to boast about how transparent he is. Here he is last summer talking at a Bloomberg conference. This was in the middle of his big press tour of twenty twenty three.

Okay, So I've spent a lot of time talking about Sam, what shaped him when he was young, how he speaks in public, how he acts in private, and over the course of the months I spent working on this podcast, I've observed one thing that I think is key to understanding Sam. Sam is slippery, especially when it comes to his words. I think it's fair to say that when he says something, you cannot be sure that he actually means it. An obvious example him saying he should be fired. He made it sound so clear, so obvious, no caveats. Then he got fired, and all of a sudden, that promise doesn't apply. Here's another example. Sam loves to boast about how transparent he is. Here he is last summer talking at a Bloomberg conference. This was in the middle of his big press tour of twenty twenty three.

You know me, for a long time public talking, I'd rather be in the office working but I think at this moment in time, like people deserve basically as much time asking questions as they want, and I'm trying to show up and do it.

You know me, for a long time public talking, I'd rather be in the office working but I think at this moment in time, like people deserve basically as much time asking questions as they want, and I'm trying to show up and do it.

But people deserve as much time asking questions as they want. Like Sam is actually framing his transparency as a moral imperative, not just something he likes, but something he should do, given how pivotal AI could be. It's reassuring to hear him welcome questions and the way he says he'd rather be working than be in an interview. It has this kind of humble, awe shucks energy to it. He says he doesn't like being on stage. He says he's sort of a shy person. I'm sure some of it is earnest, but he's smart enough to know. It also bolsters his image, makes him non threatening. It reminds me of the way he always writes his tweets in all lowercase, so friendly. Last year, Sam said it would be super unreasonable not to answer questions. He also said that he and open AI deserve great scrutiny right now. But in more recent interviews, Sam seems to have changed his tune. Instead of answering those questions about Ilia's whereabouts he deflected, and again in that conversation at Davos, when Brad asked a question about Sam's firing to the co panelist Ata Maconju, Sam jumped in and blocked it.

But people deserve as much time asking questions as they want. Like Sam is actually framing his transparency as a moral imperative, not just something he likes, but something he should do, given how pivotal AI could be. It's reassuring to hear him welcome questions and the way he says he'd rather be working than be in an interview. It has this kind of humble, awe shucks energy to it. He says he doesn't like being on stage. He says he's sort of a shy person. I'm sure some of it is earnest, but he's smart enough to know. It also bolsters his image, makes him non threatening. It reminds me of the way he always writes his tweets in all lowercase, so friendly. Last year, Sam said it would be super unreasonable not to answer questions. He also said that he and open AI deserve great scrutiny right now. But in more recent interviews, Sam seems to have changed his tune. Instead of answering those questions about Ilia's whereabouts he deflected, and again in that conversation at Davos, when Brad asked a question about Sam's firing to the co panelist Ata Maconju, Sam jumped in and blocked it.

Anna, you wrote a remarkable letter to employees during the saga, and one of the many reasons I was excited to have you on stage today was to just ask you, what were those five days like for you?

Anna, you wrote a remarkable letter to employees during the saga, and one of the many reasons I was excited to have you on stage today was to just ask you, what were those five days like for you?

And why did you step up and write that.

And why did you step up and write that.

Ana can clearly answer this if she wants to, But like, is really what you want to spend our time on, like the soap opera rather than like what Ahi is going to do?

Ana can clearly answer this if she wants to, But like, is really what you want to spend our time on, like the soap opera rather than like what Ahi is going to do?

I mean, I'm wrapping it up, but I mean I think people are interested.

I mean, I'm wrapping it up, but I mean I think people are interested.

Well, we can leave it here if you want to, Yea, let's answer that question to talk about we can move on.

Well, we can leave it here if you want to, Yea, let's answer that question to talk about we can move on.

I would just say, for color that it happened the day before the entire company was supposed to take a week off, so Friday.

I would just say, for color that it happened the day before the entire company was supposed to take a week off, so Friday.

That comment, do you really want to talk about this soap opera? Is a perfect example of Sam's habit of grabbing control of a conversation when he's asked a question he doesn't like or doesn't want to answer. He not only skates past it, he flips it back on the interviewer and chastises them for asking Sam is a scold. I've noticed that he uses this tactic, especially when journalists start asking him about interpersonal drama, messiness, instances where he might come out looking bad. He did a similar thing at a Bloomberg conference last year by colleague Emily Chang asks him about Elon Musk, who has been bad mouthing Sam and open AI, complaining that they are no longer open now.

That comment, do you really want to talk about this soap opera? Is a perfect example of Sam's habit of grabbing control of a conversation when he's asked a question he doesn't like or doesn't want to answer. He not only skates past it, he flips it back on the interviewer and chastises them for asking Sam is a scold. I've noticed that he uses this tactic, especially when journalists start asking him about interpersonal drama, messiness, instances where he might come out looking bad. He did a similar thing at a Bloomberg conference last year by colleague Emily Chang asks him about Elon Musk, who has been bad mouthing Sam and open AI, complaining that they are no longer open now.

Obviously we've seen all the barbs that you and Elon have been trading in public and in interviews, writing I don't really well you're responding. You respond, you get asked about it by people.

Obviously we've seen all the barbs that you and Elon have been trading in public and in interviews, writing I don't really well you're responding. You respond, you get asked about it by people.

Like me, to be mostly people like you to be honest. Most other people ask about the technology.

Like me, to be mostly people like you to be honest. Most other people ask about the technology.

But that is.

But that is.

True, most other people ask about the technology frustrated ouch. His implicit message is pretty clear to me. It's virtuous and high minded to want to talk about the technology, the science. It's petty to ask about his relationship with Elon. When Emily presses, he doubles down, like, I really.

True, most other people ask about the technology frustrated ouch. His implicit message is pretty clear to me. It's virtuous and high minded to want to talk about the technology, the science. It's petty to ask about his relationship with Elon. When Emily presses, he doubles down, like, I really.

Am happy to talk about this, that this is the most important topic we can spend the rest of the time on it.

Am happy to talk about this, that this is the most important topic we can spend the rest of the time on it.

I think the rest of the.

I think the rest of the.

Time just some.

Time just some.

In a taped interview ahead of this on stage conversation, when Emily asked him a similar question about Elon, he dismissed her in the same way.

In a taped interview ahead of this on stage conversation, when Emily asked him a similar question about Elon, he dismissed her in the same way.

I don't think this is in the top one hundred most important things happening related to AI right now, for what.

I don't think this is in the top one hundred most important things happening related to AI right now, for what.

It's worth it to me, it sounds like Sam means he should only answer the questions he deems worthwhile, and he dismisses questions by implying they're the wrong ones, unimportant questions, not worth his time. The board fired Sam for being not consistently candid, and while we may never know exactly what they were referring to, we've seen many other instances when Sam's actions didn't live up to his words. Sam promised transparency, he promised that he could get fired. He's walked both of those back. He talked a big game about how poverty shouldn't exist and how we should give money to everyone without conditions, but he set conditions on financial help to his sister. Even the actress Scarlet Johanson has complained about Sam's duplicity. She said that in twenty twenty three, Sam asked her to lend her voice to chat GPT. She said no, and then when an ai voice was released, it sounded so much like her that it confused even her family and close friends. Some of open AI's promises have also eroded. Open ai started as a nonprofit, but many critics, most loudly elon Musk, say they're not anymore. Not really. The nonprofit board was supposed to have power over Sam, power to even dissolve open ai if they thought it was in line with the mission. Those board members tried to exercise their power, and as a result, they were removed. This pattern matters because Sam and open ai are making more and more promises with bigger and bigger consequences and asking us to take their word for it. Meanwhile, Sam's ambition keeps growing. He once considered running for governor of California. In addition to sitting at the top of open ai, he's overseeing other projects that connect to and support open ai, like a sam Altman ecosystem. He has his universal basic income research in case AI puts us out of work. He has world coin, the crypto project that scans eyeballs in order to distribute that income. He has a nuclear fusion company that will create enough energy for AI. He's trying to raise enormous sums of money to make chips that power AI. Someone who knows Sam told me he wants to be world emperor. The goal is to take over the world. Paul Graham, Sam's former mentor, told a reporter, I think his goal is to make the whole future. Foundering is hosted by me Ellen Hewitt. Sean Wen is our executive producer. Rachel Metz and Sharene Gaffari contributed reporting to this episode. Molly Nugent is our associate producer. Blake Maples is our audio engineer. Mark Million and Vandermy Seth Fiegerman, Tom Giles and Molly Schutz are our story editors. We had production help from Jessica Nix and Antonio muffaretch Thanks for listening. If you like our show, leave a review, and most importantly, tell your friends. See you next time.