Welcome to Food three sixty, the podcast that serves up some serious food for thought. I'm your host, Mark Murphy. Today I'm excited to have chef, writer, social activist, TV host, and all around renaissance man my friend Andrew Zimmer. Thank you for joining me. Andrew Zimmer, you're one of those iconic people now who are out there fighting for our industry, fighting doing all sorts of things, trying to make this world a better place. I think, as a chef, as an entrepreneur, as who you are, it's it's hard not to do this, but I sort of want to. I want to go. I mean, what else are we gonna do? I mean, we're used to just feeding people. Were always want to take care of people, and obviously that's in your it's in your blood. It's it's amazing to me though, how um, how far people who started out their lives just wanting to cook for folks because something magical happened when you aid something and it went out into a dining room or went over a counter, or got wrapped uh in paper and handed off to a delivery person and you got feedback, you know, ten minutes later, ten days later, whatever that People liked it. You know, I got into this business because I just loved what it felt like to cook food. Uh. Then I realized I could actually like make a paycheck to It was almost the paycheck was almost irrelevant the first I don't know ten years that I was doing this, including like my summer jobs in high school. And now you know, chefs are being nominated for Nobel Prizes, chefs are in the White House advocating for policy that affects not only restaurants but small businesses in general. Uh, it's I mean, just my goodness, over the course of my lifetime, what has happened with our concept of food almost goes back to the moral imperative of our cave man days, where you know, food was was the central aspect of food and fire, right, you needed to keep the fire going and you needed to keep everyone in the cave fed speaking metaphorically, And now it's just it's it's it's mind boggling to me as a as a someone who studies this stuff and loves the history and the anthropology and the sociology of it. How how this has been interpreted by our culture now. So I'm just lucky I was in the right place at the right time. I think that we're we're all sort of it's amazing to be living during this, during this moment and seeing what we're seeing what's happening is just, I think, amazing. I want to kind of go back to the first time. I know I had met you before many times and it was just briefly, you know whatever, But there was the moment that I really felt like we connected. And I don't know if you to me, it was one of those moments where I felt like, first of all, I think anybody who's a chef, anybody who's a cook, anybody loves people. The way we do this is just how we act. But I saw you at the airport and Aspen. We were landing there for the Aspen Food and Wine Festival, and we're in that tiny airport and you're taking that bag of yours, which I'm sure you you've you've taken off of a carousel a million times because the amount of traveling you do. But you looked at me. I looked at you, and I said hello, and I knew you, and I guess you knew me, but you came over and gave me a hug and a kiss and I was like, you know, it's so good to see you and and that human well, that human contact I think we're all dying to have again. Running into people is one of those things, but that I think we're all missing right now. But I was just it was just it was you know, it just showed me again that you know, the people that that I work with and my colleagues there are they're loving people that that want to be friends and they want to help, and and just that that that sort of hug. It was like, oh my god, we are we are friends, and it really moved me. I have to say food, food people are the best people in the world. Um I'm a little bit hurt that you've forgotten that we dated in high school, but that's fine. I mean, uh, I mean, I've been saying this for twenty years. Food people are the best people on the whole planet. I think that the the era of the of the pandemic of however, this is going to be remembered. Historically, um has has held up a mirror to the ugliest parts of of our culture and how we relate to other human beings, but it's also underscored some of the most beautiful pieces of who we are as as human beings. And I remember watching uh you know, the towers come down on nine eleven and right behind the fire department and the police department and all the other first responders that went in. There were friends in college leagues of ours who set up mobile kitchens, you know, dangerously close to where uh ash was still falling. Chemicals were still in the air, but they felt it was necessary to feed people, and they didn't care about the danger. They they ran towards that event. I remember watching in Katrina and seeing I will never forget in my in my mind seeing uh John Currants a picture of him standing in He had on his big boots and he was standing in water and the grill was propped up on milk crates and he was just like he was cooking some meat on the grill that had come out of some restaurants cooler that you know was failing, so he has got to cook the meat that's been Food people show up at those are the grand gestures, you know, the grand events met with small usters. But we show up at everything. Food people are are miraculous doers, rescuers, huggers of culture and society in general. I mean you, and I don't mean to sound too very crazy about this. I think it's demonstrably proven that time and time again, we show up in another centered way in in context that other industries just have no concept of. We are always there. We are always there. Food people are always there. And it's no different now, you know. I mean, look at who's feeding this country, look at who's dealing with the massive social and civic issues of our day. It's food people. Food people are leading in places that the federal government is absent. Food people are assisting governors and municipalities in getting stuff done that is necessary area for our communities, in our neighborhoods and our and our fellows. I'm just I with every passing year it becomes more and more important to me to say out loud, I am so grateful to be a part of this industry. It's the greatest group of people on planet Earth. I've always been very, very thankful that I I fell into this industry. I mean, I was extremely dyslexic as a kid, so I didn't really know what to do with my life. And I think your example as well. My first couple of years, my first couple of my first couple of years in the kitchen, I was looking around, going, they're gonna pay me to do this? This is like I feel like I'm stealing because I screw up so many things. I'm throwing away so many things that but I learned and I got it, and I love the camaraderie. I loved all of that. But going back to the food, people helping people one of my favorite stories. And this is the great thing about you know, Chopped is one of those shows that's been on for over ten years and I want to talk about your show next, but about your shows next. But one of the one of the things is we get to see incredible care of people. And I can still remember and it still brings a tear to my eye. This woman, um, this African American woman in oil New Orleans comes to Chopped and it's all people from New Orleans after the hurricane, like a firefighter. And this woman stood there and just told us her story of being a cook in a high school, in cooking and all of a sudden, this thing happened, and she just felt so sorry for all of those people that worked upstairs in the administration and the teachers, because you know, after that she just bought a truck and started cooking and could make a living. But she felt bad for those teachers and everything. They didn't have a job anymore. But she was out there and she's like, talk about them that she was helping, but helping her family and the resourcefulness of this woman. She was just she was the cafeteria worker basically, and she's like, I feel so sorry for those poor people that have no jobs. I can work anywhere, and that that story. And then there was a firefighter who after everything happened, he was a cook as well, and he retreated and tells the story of going over a certain line and then found found a retirement home that had a kitchen and he's like, well, i'm here, I can cook. I also I'm a firefighter, but I'm also I worked at Brennan's, right, So he just started cooking for people and just out of that kitchen, took over the kitchen. It was just I mean that the resilience of people is is beautiful. But I think that right now, you know, I think the restaurant industry is going to need a little bit of help because I don't know if the hospitality industry is taking such a hit. I mean from cruise ships to hotels to airlines too. I mean people aren't going to be doing as much. I think, you know, I think of these restaurants are probably gonna those jobs are gonna go. Wait, what are all of our people gonna do after this happens? I mean, it's gonna be tricky. It's there's there's a there's there's an ironic moment uh at work here, very sad ironic moment and a great pivot into that that next topic. I think no industry that I know of is getting kicked in the shorts to the degree that the restaurant and hospitality community is. That being said, Uh, while there are lots of coalitions and lots of advocacy work that's going on, and I'm certainly spending you know, fourteen hours a day working on that, you know currently um for a bunch of different organizations, most most importantly the Independent Restaurant Coalition. We're still out there feeding people. You know. It is it's it's incredible to me that restaurants right here in my hometown that do not know if they will be open two weeks from now when their PPP money comes out, UH, comes to an end. People who took it early, took the risk, are using that p PP money in part because they're doing some take out in some delivery, but they're also using it in part to have those same employees staff community resource kitchens making meals for first responders, making meals for the hungry, because we've tripled the need at food banks and food shelves. It's it's that that is the most selfless actohol to know that you know, you may have a date at the you know, with the you know, bankruptcy lawyer, or that the time may come to turn the sign around in the in the front door and say closed and right permanently underneath it. Like so many restaurants. By the way, I have already announced that there are people who are using that last gas could just keep like astronaut thinking, here's our problem today. We gotta we have hungry people in this neighborhood. We're gonna feed them and we'll deal with two weeks in two weeks, um. But yeah, if if the restaurants stay aabilization act, UH and Representative Earl Bluemen Hour from UH Washington, UH just dropped a white paper on a bill that he's going to introduce called restaurants. It's He's got a very uh clever title to it, where all the letters add up to spell the word. It's gonna be called the Restaurants Act just dropped this morning. Is going to ensure that we get that hundred and twenty billion dollars stabilization Fund for restaurants. That's the only way I really see an end game where restaurants are able to reopen, but most importantly stay open for the twelve to eighteen months that's going to be required for the restaurant industry to stabilize, hence the name Stabilization Fund. UM. With without that, I predict an extinction event for independent restaurants UM as much as eighty as little as sixty percent of which will not take it. Uh. Somewhere in there is what's going to happen. You' already seen so many restaurants, well known restaurants just say that's it, We're done. Um. Danny Meyer came out very famously, I think two ten days ago, a week ago, and said he's not going to reopen his restaurants, his independent restaurants in New York until a vaccine uh comes out. And the reason is um extremely uh profound. It's it's for the safety of his employees, the safety of his guests, and then in a tertiary way, it's then about the reasons that he got into the industry to begin with, which is just an amazing, amazing confessional from one of the great leaders of our industry that it's it's not as fun. The guest experience isn't the same. You know, he freely admits to being able to pivot. He's doing delivery and take out in some of his restaurants. Um. Obviously this kind of decision making will change day to day, week to week, month to month, but for right now, until it's safe, he's not even thinking about reopening. I know, with some of our restaurants here in the Twin Cities, I have some completely shuttered and I'm saving all the PPP money for a time later in the summer when it's safer for our folks to reopen, and we have some that are open doing carry out and delivery. It's really quite something, it is. It is amazing to see that. I mean, it's basically like an atom bomb into our industry to shake it up. I'm just hoping that there's good coming out of this. In the end, I hope there's there's first of all, more respect for everybody that works in our industry, from from the farmer that grows the food, from the bus boy that clears your table. I think that now we all know that those are really important people. And and by god, I can't wait to start to order a drink and have it dropped off in front of me and a guy and and and and a meal and having it prepared and sitting in a restaurant. Like the concept of that right now is just so it's it's so familiar but so foreign almost in a way. But all of the work that gets that to that point is very important. And I think that, you know, I think that everybody is we we don't we don't pay enough for our food. I think in our country right now, as far as consumers go, there's there's everybody's sort of been screwed along the way, and it's just brought in the price of everything down and everybody's competing. So I mean, maybe this is gonna be a rejigger or reshuffle and and things are gonna be looking at a little better for our industry. Do I think there's gonna be as many people in our industry when this is over, it's gonna take a while to get back up to the numbers of people that we employed. I think maybe that's why we need to start thinking of other jobs for these for everybody you know, manufacturing or or or you know, doing other things that are going to keep everybody busy, because there's not gonna be a There's not gonna be enough line cook positions for everybody after this. And I think it's gonna be. It's gonna be it's gonna be a very strange sort of reshuffling of the deck. Well, you you bring up so many good points right there. Let me let me start to move backwards. Let me just put a pin in the idea of we can build something better, because you know, I want to end up there. Um, even under the best case scenario, we're gonna lose twenty the best case Snio restaurants disappear. You know, Amanda Cone wrote a great op ed in The New York Times about six weeks ago, uh and she posited the notion radical at the time, and she took a lot of grief for it. I I send her and know the support because I thought she was onto something really brilliant that said, you know, she said, there's twenty six thousand restaurants in New York. If only one open, would anyone notice? She She wasn't saying that to denigrate the restaurants that would close, make fun of anyone. She wasn't saying it to intimate that a single lost job was tolerable. What she was saying was have we grown too big over the last asked ten years of a booming economy, right to the point that we may have more seats nationally than there are customers? Is have we built something too big? Do we have too many chefs on television? Have we idolized me? And I just keep extending this idea. Have we built our industry up? Is there a bubble in essence in our industry that's going to burst? And her underlying thesis of of that to support it was that what we were building, to your point about price and fair trade, was not sustainable. I would have preferred it wasn't sure this happened, brittle, fragile and not sustainable. With my point exactly before this ever happened, it has been for years and years and years, and I would have preferred, as so many of us have advocated for that, we were able to take our house apart, brick by brick and build it together. Instead, it got wiped out overnight by you know, this horrific uh tornado. So now we we have to build it back. If we're going to build it back and make the same mistakes that we've made over the last whatever hundred years, you know, that's the debt and expect a different results the definition of insanity, right, So we do have to make all the systems in it more equitable, from how we pay people, how we employ people, who gets employed, how people benefit And quite honestly, you hit on a topic that is so important to me, even pre COVID. I made this the center point of one of my conversations at Copia, a talk series that I did out of the CIA's campus in Napa Valley, which was what is the price of food cost on a plate? Right? And is that where a lot of our problems start? And I happen to think for a lot of reasons, it does if you set aside the real estate question, right, which is a massive one, but we sort of in a way don't control that, right. Um, the the market has been over inflated, and locations cost a lot of money. And should we be opening in different places? Sure, but how can it tells someone not to open, you know, a restaurant off of Times Square when there's a million people walking by every day. Right, no matter whatever the landlord charges, a savvy entrepreneur will figure out how to make a dollar. However, the problem is is that we've had artificially deflated food prices in America, both in supermarkets and in restaurants, for decades, for decades and decades. It goes back to the horrific ways in which food is subsidized in America. Food, by the way, oftentimes that is not for human consumption. In fact, the majority of the subsidized UH farm industry in America is only done through crop insurance, which is for food that's not of it not for human consumption. Right, it's part of our farm to freighter UH system, cotton, soybean, feed, corn, etcetera. Um we Tracy Dejardan, was it just a fantastic story, And you know, I'm sure we have ones from our own restaurants, but she put it so cogently in such a brilliant chef and leader for twenty five years. She had Jardineer in San Francisco, right one of the best restaurants in America, and she closed it last year and pre COVID nineteen and kept over other more casual concepts alive. And when I asked her about that, she said, it's really simple. She said, you know, three or four years ago, I was making we're still making money, single digit percentage to the bottom line. But I wanted to take better care of my people. I wanted to offer insurance and all the other things that other industries get. And she wanted to create that sustainable environment that you were talking about, Mark, and uh, you know, she put the little note at the bottom of her menu, We've added three percent to your checked in order that we can offer benefits to our consumer. Um. And there was a little mini revolt or whatever amongst the consumers, which I, for the life of me, I can't understand. UM. You know, I mean, if you're a Jardineer or already, I mean, you know, what's what's a couple more dollars going to be um? And uh, then she decided, Okay, they don't like that. UM. And so she was testing and measuring. She was one of the early adopters of this, and so then she decided she would just change her prices right, and that created an even bigger stir, and she started to investigate into this, and she realized that when she had opened twenty five years ago, and and I'm going to I'm gonna get the numbers wrong, but the gist of it is correct, and the spread, I believe it is correct. When the restaurant opened, it was charging for the chicken entree. And you know, twenty five years later she was charging like for the chicken entree. So the price had gone up on the chicken entree, but all of every other cost in the restaurant had gone up hundreds of percentage points, from rent to insurance, to cost of goods, to pay roll and all of that. So we we are artificially deflating food menu prices, as you indicate, so that we can keep attracting customers. Um, that's not a recipe for success to run and operate a business. And I do think part of our reset is going to be healthier food because it's in a way easier for a lot of operators to take cheap protein or empty calories and use them to fill people up. And that's that's sort of what gave rise to this, you know, fast food industry, a lot of really bad habits and our industry. And if we start to shrink that and shrink port, it's gonna take education, it's gonna take social change, it's gonna take so many movers. I really think it's gonna be a social justice movement like the ones for seatbells or warnings on cigarette packs and other stuff. We're looking at a you know, ten to fifteen years social justice movement, at the end of which I believe we will be eating healthier, things will be adjusted, prices will be normal, and it's gonna start or is starting right now. So I think you're a spot on. When I hear about subsidies to the to the farmers, it's like, Okay, that's not the farmers that need the subsidy. The subsidy. The farmers that needed are the ones that, you know, let's say that d'Artagnan is buying from her her farmers. You know, those are the farmers you need to get. You need to get the the guy that's growing the organic carrots. You need the guy that's growing the good stuff. I mean, it's just it's amazing to me. It's very funny because I was on the I was doing an interview for Forbes the other day with Alan from d'Artagnan, and we were talking about this issue and about the cost of goods and things like that, and she as as you know, arian, with her big heart and and and the love she has for farmers and for restaurateurs and for chefs. She goes, I don't understand for one dollar, what what kind of meat could be in that hamburger? What kind of meat are you eating for a dollar? It's like, this can't be good for you. It's absolutely bizarre. It's it's it's amazing too, because the cyclical nature of our food industry, you know, the the economic boom of the last ten years and the rise of the restaurants and the celebrity chef of the last thirty years is what gave birth to what we thought was the last great hope for decentralizing our farm system. In other words, restaurants like yours mine, a lot of other restaurants all around the country opened up, and it created a market for you know, farmers, new farmers, which we desperately need. By the way, you know, five thousand farmers are going to age out of the system over the next you know, twenty years. We need to replace them. UH. And it gave rise to all of these small farms UH that sold exclusively uh into restaurants and hotels and other food service establishments that wanted to offer food that tasted better, UH, that was looked more delicious, was better for you, UM. And we wanted to support these micro economies. UM. Now one of the things that we're seeing when you look at the supply chain and you know, thank god, these issues are on the front pages of our newspapers, websites and in the a block of every news UH media entity and newscast every night UH for the last five weeks. Is the problems with that food chain. You see that it's big meat, big egg that is uh not offering solutions. In fact, their systems are enabling even more problems. Right. And if this isn't enough from a public health standpoint to underscore why we needed for decades to decentralize our food system, I don't know what is. You know, over the course of my lifetime, we went you know, from having X number of meat US d A UH licensed meat processors to X minus like five thousand meat processors, and we put seventy five per cent of the beef industry in America into the hands of three companies, of the pork into the hands of I think two companies. I mean, it's just that it's absolutely absurd. So of course it's more dangerous for the employees. It raises immigration abuses, It allows for that that that you know, that world uh that you know we we read about a hundred years ago in Sinclair's book UH to come back Roaring at us. It's carried disease. You know, people, people don't realize that, you know, you know, a lot of the bacterium that we worry about in the food business we put in there when we sped up our supply system. We've created unsafe food and an unsafe labor practice. And we need to get back to where farmers are growing food for human beings and let a smaller sector, although important, grow food for UH, non human consumption. And there's finally some traction for that. People are finally getting it because the media is reporting on it for the first time. I've been advocating for twenty years for UH those running for office to talk about literal kitchen table issues UH and put out platforms on food. And this is finally Yesterday was the first time, although there was some mention at the last Democratic debate, UH, the presumptive Democratic can to date, Joe Biden did a virtual town hall on Yahoo News with Jose and Dress, and I tweeted out as I was watching it this for people who've been fighting this fight for twenty years, we finally have a candidate talking nothing but food issues for an hour. And they're so vital because we live in them every day, much in the way that we did during Caveman days. This is something every American needs to be involved and we need We need to have a food secretary with the cabinet level position. I think yesterday Jose activated for it to be an under secretary position over at the UH UM uh N s A at Department of State, simply simply because food security issues are are are a global threat UH to American hegemony and the safety and security of all Americans. UM. We have so many issues that revolve around food and and maybe this time, maybe this pandemic allows us to actually be dealing with them in a real time basis and not kicking the can down the field. I mean we kicked the can down the field on immigration for forty years. UM. This pandemic has showed us what a mistake that is. We don't have bench players, right. I mean all those farmers out in the field harvesting, picking crab in Maryland, cutting meat in Arkansas. You know, chickens in Illinois, turkeys in Minnesota, UM, dairy in Wisconsin. I mean, the immigrants touch food every single step of the way in our system, and we have created an abusive visa program that still doesn't put enough workers into play, and we have created toxic environments for them. If we had corrected our immigration system thirty years ago, it would be a non ise. We wouldn't be in this position that we are in now. So we have to use this moment in time to activate people. You know this this feels like nineteen sixty eight and sixty nine all over again. You know, two of the most horrific years in American history. UM, and I think we're at that time again. This may be the most central time in our country's history towards how we define and look at ourselves since the Civil War, I personally believe that it is. And it's a hinge event that I think is even bigger perhaps than World War two or World War One. I think we have to go as far as our country is concerned globally, different story, but we have to go back to the Civil War to see a hinge event of this type. Well, I think that the the the comforting thing that obviously we would love to see the outside to get to the other side of this and it be really you know, things being fixed, but the rise of sort of the celebrity chef. We've got jos Andreas out there beating the path, You're out there talking about these things very intelligently, where I think that now people are finally realizing that, you know, there there are the chefs and people in the food industry have something to say and it's very important, especially right now, and it's really getting to be very poignant, you know. I have I always tell this story to friends of mine when I that that it has to change up there as well, let's say in government and all these things and farm subsidies. There's all these very very high sort of decisions that need to be made. But I think it actually comes also down to the individual American is educating themselves about what they're eating and what they're putting in their body for fuel, because it's actually just fuel, and you put shitty gas in the tank that you don't work as well. But what I when I came back from Italy once I was in I was in uh In in Sicily doing an event there at a couscuse competition. Oddly enough, but you know, you drive around in Italy or anywhere in Europe, and everybody's got a little plot of land behind their house. What are they doing. They're growing lettuce, They're growing their tomatoes. They've got a lemon tree, they got a fig tree if it's warm enough to have one. But the idea that you drive around and I came back to New York and I went to my son's baseball tournament in Long Island, and I was determined after this trip to Italy to go find some food that was healthy out and you know, driving around the Middle Island they call it, I couldn't find anything except for you know, places that were just serving and selling cheap, bad food. And then I started noticing, you know, everybody has these huge, beautiful lawns out here and there. I was like, nobody's growing a tomato, nobody's growing lettuce. I mean, if you think about you know, food waste and and and the gas you used to drive to the store. I mean, you take a lettuce seed and planted in the ground, and a couple of weeks later, it comes up and you've got lunch. I mean, it's just and it's it's basically free. You just have to water it. You just need the land. But instead we've got these huge, ginormous lawns that are green, and you know, somebody's picking the weeds out of the lawn. What good is that? I mean, why don't you grow some food? And I think that it was interesting because when this started, I was I was actually already planning on building a vegetable garden, and I was I had ordered the wood and so on and and so. But then all of a sudden, I was like, I gotta get seeds. And then I realized everybody in America was buying seeds. I didn't know. And then I read about it that two things happened when the stock market goes down. Seeds sell out quickly, and h hatcheries that are selling the chicks for making to get a chicken coop. Those sell out very quickly as well, and I just thought, wow, this is this is actually a good sign. Maybe people are gonna get it. Like you can grow your own vegetables. You can if you have enough room, put a little chicken coop. It doesn't take much to take care of a couple of chickens. And you get your free eggs because egg prices are going up. But that that a little microcosm of that. And by the way, I mean, let's let's sort of transition to your show that you did for your Bizarre Foods. You traveled around the world, and yes it was Bizarre Foods, but you saw this type of culture everywhere you traveled, which is you you saw people you know, they take care of themselves, and the food is the impetus for your for your show, but it was also the impetus for all these people and how they survived every every culture. I was, you know, the really the staggery wake up call for me, you know, and and my favorite shows to make I mean, look, I'm not gonna lie to you. Uh doing a Paris show and staying at a fancy hotel and eating your way across Paris for a week. Um. You know, one of the best days of my life was the middle of that. I think. I think in my first book, I wrote, you know, my best food day ever was the title of one of my chapters, and it was a day that I spent in Paris. Um. But the most impactful day of my life, one of the handful of them, uh, was always doing the tribal shows right where you're living with with people who are protected tribes, people who are living indistinguishably um from the way in which their ancestors lived thousands of years ago. And it always took us years of petitioning governments to kind of get in and and document how these folks lived. But I remember we were with the Himba in the Himba land, which is in northern Na maybe yet and uh. They are pastoral people. They migrate their flocks and herds around across several different areas according to the seasons. Some places in Himba land get more rain than others, so it's important to keep the flocks moving. Um. And you know, the Himba men take many wives uh, so that along the way they have homes to stop in. They they have many children uh. In each of their families, so that that that's your workforce and your standing army. UM. So the illusion is that men are in charge, but the women make all the decisions. It is a it is not. On the surface it looks like a patriarchal society, it's not. It's a matriarchal society. One look at Himba women, and these are the women that put ochre. First of all, they're Amazonian, I mean they're They're all six ft tall and and just incredible driving forces in their community. They cover themselves in what they call ochre, which is a mixture of a certain type of mud and a beef tallow that creates a reddish hue on their skin. They decorate their hair and clothing with different jewels and things that on first look or just stunning lee gorgeous, but it actually signals to other Himba women from a distance, how many husbands you have, how many animals you own, how many children you have, so that everyone can sort of gauge who's who in this uh, in this matriarchal society masquerading as a patriarchal one. And I had my iPad with me and I was showing UH. One of the chiefs of one of the family groups that we were with. Uh. He wanted to see what my home looked like, and I showed him, and we live in the woods, and we had a very small lawn in front of the house. Uh. And you know, we had our our container, a garden and herbs and a fruit tree and all the rest of them. It's a fairly small front of the house that was sunny where I could put the food. And the all of them gathered around to see what my house was. And then they all shook their head and kind of walked away. And I said to the translator, can you ask them what the disappointment was? And after a lot of because they didn't want to be rude, but you know, their body language showed at all. And the answer that came back was that they thought that I was an important man, but clearly I wasn't. And I said, what can you explain that further? They said, well, yes, the all the people that come with you seem to defer to you when you're talking, etcetera. They referred that that was the crew and who was shooting and stuff like that. He says, clearly, you're the you're the chief of your group, and I said, yes, I'm the I'm the chief of my group. And they're like, and you get what we're looking at. That's that because they live in small little huts made of grass and twigs, they can move around. Uh. And they said, you're what you live in is impressive. Um, but you're clearly a fool because you have all of that grazing land and you have no animals. And they said, how many animals do you have? And I said I have to. I have a dog and a cat. And they thought that was hysterical. And they said, why don't you have goats or cows? Uh? And I just I kind of and they just shook them. They didn't even want to anyone who had just a small bit of lawn and weren't using that little bit of greenery to raise animals. To them was the the the height of idiocy. And I've never forgotten that moment. To not take advantage of your resources. And in America, you know, long story long are failing going back to World War One when Victory gardens were feeding you know, growing sixty of the produce in America was coming from Victor regardens. We have failed to honor our resources and we just look at the environmental issues, look at the other Sustainability, I mean, sustainability is a word we throw around a lot. I mean there's financial, economic sustainability, ecological sustainable, on and on and on. But the fact that we have squandered our resources, both human, right and physical is a mind it's it tells the story of the last seventy five years of American history is how we build these incredible resources and then squander them. And look at what the federal government is doing right now. Are diminished position in the world, our inability to get things done, the gutting of agencies that we're getting things done. Are we better off now than we were three years ago? I don't think so. Having nothing to do with COVID nineteen and a lot of it comes down. This is not a you know, a left or right issue, or a blue or red issue, although I will happily make it one, uh, but it's a forward. It's a word issue. Right, How does our society civically move forward? We have to protect our resources, and we have to have a different kind of government that puts people ahead of profits. If we do that, history tells us Every economic study tells us the profits will come. If you put profits before people, you build a house of cards that ultimately is not sustainable. It's tumbling down right now. Yeah, no kidding when you think about taking care of people. Um. I was thinking about a trip that I took recently to Jordan, and I think you had been there as well. Did you go to the Zachary refugee camp in Jordan's many many times I shot TV there, I volunteered there. I know that I know that you visited there. I've been there a couple of times. You were there right after me, if I if I'm remembering from Instagram, Uh, correctly. Yeah. It was. It was amazing to see the human resilience. I mean you saw these these women and these children and these kids, ninety thousand of them inside of this refugee camp. They had all their markets and they were and we we were lucky enough we got to go into their homes and actually cook with them and see what they were doing and and talk to them about their life. And you know, these people had basically walked from Syria from a war torn country and they and they show up in this refugee camp and they're actually trying to there was there was a bunch of women that started a catering company for because people were going to get married and they have to figure out. But it was so beautiful that that food was sort of the tying together of this culture. And they kept their culture from where they came from, and they were explaining to us certain recipes that were something that they had from back home. And and you went into these people homes and there was a sink and a hole in the ground and and a thing with a gas to be able to cook something. But they still took the pride and they had little like lace curtains with the dishes were behind on on like a piece of plywood. It was just it was it was pretty amazing to see that and that, you know, your your show showing things like that was really impressive for those of us who were fortunate enough and I say fortunate to be able to visit places like that. It stays with you forever you realize how lucky we are. It humbles you in a way that like nothing I've ever like nothing I've ever seen. Uh at Zatari for for those that don't know, is a d I think it's up to a hundred thousand now refugee camp on the Syria Jordanian border, predominantly for Syrians leaving that war torn country and UM. At one point we walked by these two wheelbarrows side by side filled with children's shoes, and you just looked at it and you just it's sobbing because you knew why those shoes were there. If a child in one family outgrows shoes, it goes to the younger kid, or the parent brings them to a friend whose kid need shoes. Those shoes were shoes from children, uh that were no longer alive, and they were there to be distributed to newcomers. And I mean to see that and then at the same time, on the flip side of it, understand that because everyone jokes about the quote unquote the world's oldest profession, the world's oldest profession is selling food. The first businesses to spring up in Zatari are not for uh pleasure seeking of a sexual nature. The first businesses to pop up in refugee camps are food businesses. We met a couple of guys and I don't know if you got there. I mean, it's it's a big camp. UM. But on our last trip, there we went to the guys making flatbread and two young guys. Uh. Because when you come into Satari, you get a very small amount of money, you get a place to sleep, and then you kind of entrepreneur your way into a better position. These guys took their money, bought a plastic a couple of five gallon plastic buckets, cucumbers and salt because water is available to them, and they started making lacto fermented cucumbers. And they set themselves up right across from one of the most popular food resources in the community, which was one of the local bakeries. So with you know, before long people were by their bread and then buy a bag of pickles and they just you know, every day they start a new batch, so that every day they had some to sell and they were selling out of their pickles. And I said to them, how's it going, And they said, well, we've only been open for a couple of weeks. We're gonna start expanding into other vegetables. We're gonna start fermenting cab edge and we're gonna say and I was just like, this is just this is just incredible. The first thing that happens is they set up food. The single largest business in terms of UH from an economic standpoint, in terms of the cash that generates in the entire camp is that chicken restaurant. I don't know if you happen to walk by there, but there's a guy that's they do this flat top chicken. You get a couple of salads. It's only one item on the menua chicken um, but it's in and we and we profiled that family in one of our shows. It is the resilience of the human spirit always revolves around food. Whether you're putting a cup of soup into someone's hand, or whether you're cooking for your community, or whether you're starting a business by fermenting some cucumbers. It's it's a mind blowing fact of our lives and just one more indication about the vital role that food plays in our society, every level of society. I think it's it's it's beautiful to to have. I think you say, we're we're extremely lucky. You and I we get to travel, we get to do things like this, and we get to go see the resilience of people, the beauty of food and where it takes you. And and with with all that I think, you know, even even in our own community, I mean for me as well, is how not only does it help people feed, but they also help each other in a sense. And you know interestingly enough, I mean obviously we all know about addiction and recovery and and I have I've had many chefs and cooks with who have gone through this and and we as a community come together and help those people out. And I know you've had your struggles with that. I have a really good old sux chef that that um that I knew that started and he now opened a restaurant in Washington State and he's part of this uh Ben's Friends organization. When he started calling me and telling me, and his mother calls me every once in a while and cries and says thank you for the help you did to get him through. But so that's sort of a story we've all heard or you know, kids being and I've seen this on Chopped as well, a kid who was in a gang who said, if I don't leave this town, I'm I've already been stabbed three times. And they go across the country and they become a dishwasher and they become a sous chef, and the next thing you know, they're on television on chopped that those things are amazing. But something that was interesting to me the other day is this this young lady who's in um who's writing a thesis or a paper for her culinary school. Her name was Kenzie, and she called me and and wanted to interview me about me and what And I was like, what do you do? And so I was I was sort of interviewing her at a certain point, how did you get to this cooking school? And she said that, you know the Food Channel, uh, and food has saved my life because I had a needing disorder and I was scared of food. And watching the Food Network and watching shows that people like me and people like you were on she realized that she was It made her more comfortable with food, and then she started cooking her way out of her just out of her eating disorder and has now is perfectly healthy and safe and a perfectly healthy young woman, and who's in a school for cooking. I mean, I was like, I didn't even know this was something else that we were involved with. And this was the first time I've ever heard of that. I mean, I'm very dyslexic. So I've I mentioned it a lot on Chopped whenever I see a kid, and I'm like, we're not stupid, We're just we just think very differently, right, We we come from a different angle. So I was like, dyslexics can get in this business and so on. But then all of a sudden, this eating just this girl. I was like, I was totally blown away. And I'm sure you have stories that are like that as well, and you've probably seen them in your travels, but really, really powerful it is. And and first of all, I I applaud you that the same reason that you uh mentioned as often as you can what your own personal struggles have been is the same reason that I'm very public about my addiction and alcoholism. UM because the net net effect that it has on being public about that helps to remove the stigma. And if you're lucky enough to have had your penny land shiny side up like you and I have, UM, it allows you to influence and send out messages that you wouldn't otherwise have been able to create. UM. You know, when when we had the opportunity to do What's Eat in America, my series on MSNBC in season one, UM our production company insisted on UM doing a episode on addiction, and we knew, we knew from the get go that we were going to uh suggest the network that we do it by telling that we use my my personal story as a thread for the narrative UM And you know, that was the culmination of twenty eight years of being very public about my sobriety. Now, the first fifteen fourteen years of my sobriety really was being public to my friends and family and my community in in Minnesota. Once you get onto TV, and then you get onto international TV, and then your as your platform grows, it becomes a vital instrument that constantly every day I'm reminded on on social media with people I bump into that all of those actions, all of the things that you choose to do in your life, the choices you make, if they are done without self seeking, will have positive impact in the in the world. When you're vulnerable and uh you put something out like hey, I'm dyslexic, that that's not for personal gain. No one's gonna sit there and go, oh, Mark Murphy is dyslexic, I'm gonna go eat at his restaurant. Well, maybe a couple of people are, uh, but but the positive ripple effect that it throws out there is just absolutely staggering. And it's taught me that that vulnerability is important everywhere in our lives. The more transparent we are, the more we connect with other people, and then we're able to influence other people in a positive way. Um. I mean, look, I'm I'm and and you know this. I'm obsessed with this idea of service because service saved my life and it keeps me out of my own head. Uh. My, my head is a very very dangerous place. I don't recommend going in there alone. It is. It is something that I try to to not let my thoughts be dominated by my you know, pesky little problems and peccadillos of my day to day life. I try to maintain an attitude of gratitude. And the only way that I've ever found that that is possible is by focusing on someone else instead of on me. And the only way that I have found in my life to actually put that into action, where it's not just an idea or greeting card homily, is by doing service work. And it is what has propelled uh, my life in a positive direction in ways that I never ever ever could have imagined. So yeah, and and and is that what the impetus was for what's eating America? Is just going out and getting that and bring it in. And also and also, but you're doing this with your own production company intuitive content is that that? And you're working with Patrick obviously, who I know well, So that that mindset um of going forward this was it was basically so you're you're just you're doing this for yourself, for your own self health as well as as everything. Now this is so you're very self turns out. Uh, it's fascinating that you say that, because I'll go back even further. Um, So, I'm a chef in my own restaurant twenty one years ago and I'm I'm going to meetings and I'm doing my recovery thing, and I realized my insides aren't matching my outsides. Everything that I'm pursuing in my recovering life and in my uh development of a spiritual system for myself that works for me that's personal to me was in conflict with my job at the time. I was not going to get from point A to point B. My tenure plan wasn't going to happen standing there in that restaurant, cooking day after day after day. I needed to find a way to stay in the business that I loved, but at the same time be able to tell stories, grow a platform, and do more service work. So the first thing that I had to do was come, but what's my message? Right? And I wrote down on a piece of paper, Uh, you know, change the world by celebrating our commonalities. And then I added a week later, you know, stop celebrating our differences, because it seemed to me that our world was always we're always talking about our differences. You know what religion you are, skin color, language, age, sexuality, all that stuff. Um, and this is twentysomething years ago, but you you could see it, I mean you could see it happening, uh, in America. And I wrote that down and then I eventually, you know, it took It was a seven year process. Sold a show Bizarre Foods that, on one hand, was about a fat white guy that goes around the world eating bugs. And if someone wanted just to sit there and have that entertainment, God bless them, that's great. It's a very necessary part of life. But the deeper piece of that show was to spread patients tolerance and understanding for other people by celebrating our commonalities over food and diving into their culture right. And it was a huge paradigm shift for me, and I was able to marry my insides and outsides. When Bizarre Food Travel Channel turned from a travel food station to a ghost and paranormal station like a country radio station, all of a sudden goes classical there was they they yeah, so then I I don't do ghost and paranormal and so I had the opportunity. The gift that they gave me was that Bizarre Foods was going to stop. A lot of people would look at that as you know at a disaster. I was to me, everything is an opportunity. And I said, Okay, now that I'm not doing that, what would I like to do? What's changed in the world. And I went back to the same thinking from twenty one years ago, and I said, what do I want to do now? Well, the world has changed, And to your point earlier, chefs are now beacons of information and they can be leaders for many different kinds of tribes and segments of our society, and they can be awareness raisors and we have these unique platforms, and I felt that the stories were there to tell We're very deep and very profound, and that it was time to raise up what I saw as an element of food television that was missing, which was, why are we telling stories about civics and politics through the lens of food? Because you can tell any story through food, right. And we started pitching this idea around years and years ago, it wasn't getting any traction. And then finally, uh, MSNBC, thank you very very much. MSNBC bought this show, um, and it was a It turned out to be a monster hit. It turns out people were ready for it. I mean, the highest rated program they had in four years, um. And it's just an amazing, amazing thing. People who have been educated about food, going back to the Julia Child, Jack Papa Galloping Gourmet days over the course of all those years now want to hear what's really going on, and that includes shows like Chopped. Because notice you've brought Chopped up three times. Not once have you ever talked about a dish, an ingredient, anything it was in a mystery basket or anything. What you brought up three times was someone's story that's the most compelling part. I don't think a lot of people it. By the way, hundreds of thousands of not millions, play mystery box cooking with their friends because of Chopped. So there's yes, they're taking that entertainment into their own homes, actually putting into practice. It's fun. We've done in our house with the kids. It's great. But what they're really doing is they're queuing into those stories. They're rooting for those people, the humanity of it. And so we're all food TV now is singing off the same song sheet. That's what's important, the stories, the humanity of what's really going on. So you were talking about Patrick Wiland, who uh we you know, runs Intuitive Content with UM and who just I adore them a superb television professional, as our whole team is, our Intuitive Content team is tops in the biz. Um we have had the opportunity to make some real game changing television. What's Eating America is just a great example of that. Well, that's amazing, that's amazing, and uh, well, I want to thank you for you know, spending the time here with me. I know you're you're a busy man, trying to do a lot of a lot of things. But I guess, my, my, you know, listening to this conversation and and hearing you speak of of where the world is now, So when do you think chefs are gonna start running for office? I mean they obviously should be leading. I mean that they we chefs should obviously be in charge because all we want to do is take care of everybody without any bias, without any other things in the way. So I think that we have to start looking for people to uh, chefs to run for office. Oh, they will, they will, I guarante, I guarantee a next election cycle, I mean two you know, uh is the next iteration of what I'm hoping is a regular election cycle. I mean the one in November. You know figures cross that happens, um, don't you know, don't the good chefs like you and I. I mean we're talking about how how everything is so screwed up right now, but we're also talking about how great we're Half the classes have full all the time. Well we have some. I'm a three Look, you've you've known me for a while, I'm a three quarters full person. I just see a lot of opportunity, a lot of promise. I think chefs of the people who naturally lead, I think we have solutions to day to day problems. There are many chefs who people say, oh, he's a great cook. Well, you know something. They're even better communicators, policymakers, organizers, producers. Chefs have an incredible skill set in our society. I would I mean, I would bet you everything in my pocket right now that you're gonna see chefs running for office. And the reason is you said this a while ago. Chefs like cooks, like porters and dishwashers and hosts and and server assistance and you know, mixologists and bartenders everything in between. Um, we're going to see a an attrition of restaurants and you're gonna see food people getting into other businesses. It's going to seem on at first, and it will be a very sad thing. There'll be people going hungry and bills unpaid and all of that stuff, and it's going to be a human tragedy. But out of that you will see people taking a different shift. And we will look back fifty years from now and say the the the employment attrition from the micro collapse fingers crossed micro of the restaurant industry birthed all of these companies run by people that would and created by entrepreneurs that would have otherwise stayed in their restaurant job. We have the smartest, best people in the world. We've talked about that ten times today in this conversation, watching them pivot into what the next thing is. They may invent the next the next food drink that saves the hungry. They may create the next company that's Apple. You know, count on it. They're gonna run for office. I think jose wins the Nobel Peace Prize the next time around. God Willing, I mean, culinary people, food people from top to bottom are the shift shapers and makers of our society. I don't think there's a finer group. I think you're gonna see them popping up everywhere. This is this is awesome, This has been fantastic. I think this is exactly why. I mean, the reason I wanted to and why I've been doing my podcast Food three sixty and the reason I named it that is because, as you said earlier, everything touches food. Everybody. I mean, it's the one thing we all have to do every day. We all have to eat, breathe, and we have to sleep. That's fascinating. I thought it was because of your Dyslet see, uh, you thought it was three sixty five? Is in days of the year you meant degrees of the I'm just messing around. Hey, can I give Can I give one one shameless plug for helping people? For any listeners, go to Andrew Zimmern dot com. We have a partners and page. Just click on that. There's twenty different organizations that I do work with, ranging from the you know, Charlie's There on Africa Outreach program, to the Independent Restaurant Coalition to Services for the Underserved in New York City Harvest everything in between. All of my boardwork, all the organizations that I support. We have click on buttons there if you'd like to donate. Most importantly, we have a little blurb there about what those organizations do. So if you're so moved and don't have an extra dollar, please cut and paste that information and circulated to your friends and tell them that you learn something important. Awareness raising is even more important than fundraising, and I of you, I definitely want that to happen. You know. The interesting to me is when my kids were younger, I love those little blurbs that that that charities have because you know, when your kids are younger, you have to teach them about charitable work. And and I can still remember the time when I gave a list of the charities that I support, and obviously thank you for being part of City Harvest. Now I've been on the board for ten years. Obviously share our strength no Kid Hungry, which is important. So I had my daughter read them, and she was very young, and she read the whole thing about no Kid Hungry, and she was moved by the description of it. So she decided to put all of her American Girl dolls up for sale on eBay and give the money and give the money to the charity. And I gotta tell you, like little things like that for teaching and and and it's it's a teaching moment for our children and for obviously the people that are going to take care of this planet later. I think it's very important. And uh, Andrew, if I could, really, if I could hug you again right now, I would love it. And uh, you know, I will hopefully see you very soon. Keep up the great work, and thank you so much for doing this with me today. No thanks, my friend. I really appreciate it. I miss you, give my best to your family, and thank you so much for UH doing all the wonderful things that you do to make your community stronger and better. I think it's uh the most important thing that we can possibly do is help those that don't have. Paul Wellstone, the late Great Paul Wellstone, you know, my mentor, my Civics mentor, UH said it all the time. We all win when we all win. And I think that's the that's what's most important.