The last music reminded me of wandering through a supermarket in nineteen ninety seven.

The last music reminded me of wandering through a supermarket in nineteen ninety seven.

Yeah, well, I keep hearing it, think what is why? Why why am I listening to this? How do I fast forward through this?

Yeah, well, I keep hearing it, think what is why? Why why am I listening to this? How do I fast forward through this?

I know, I know.

I know, I know.

This is? This is terrible, ghastly. Yeah, yeah, no, I prefer what we have to this.

This is? This is terrible, ghastly. Yeah, yeah, no, I prefer what we have to this.

Now you're teasing us.

Now you're teasing us.

You could exit though with this music. James is wrinkling his nose at that better better, better, much better.

You could exit though with this music. James is wrinkling his nose at that better better, better, much better.

It sounds like the first the first Cure album. Yeah, yeah, I think that works.

It sounds like the first the first Cure album. Yeah, yeah, I think that works.

It's a focus problem. But you could call it a breakdown. I think he's in terrible shape. He can't believe he's lost his opponent, Joe Biden. I've spent one hundred million dollars defeating Joe Biden. I want that money back. But Donald Trump having a breakdown is not necessarily politically disadvantageous to him. Welcome to Fire and Fury the Podcast.

It's a focus problem. But you could call it a breakdown. I think he's in terrible shape. He can't believe he's lost his opponent, Joe Biden. I've spent one hundred million dollars defeating Joe Biden. I want that money back. But Donald Trump having a breakdown is not necessarily politically disadvantageous to him. Welcome to Fire and Fury the Podcast.

I'm Michael Wolf and I'm James Truman. Good morning, Michael. We had a week of Democrat love. How does it make you feel.

I'm Michael Wolf and I'm James Truman. Good morning, Michael. We had a week of Democrat love. How does it make you feel.

We need four days of this? Why are these conventions for four days? I know why they're four days from the past, because there used to be a lot of stuff that had to be accomplished. At a convention, you had roll calls galore for many candidates, speeches, seconding speeches. I mean, it was actually rather exciting. Something was happening. Okay, nothing is happening now. The premise is every party gets four days of uninterrupted media time, even though there is no purpose in no news being made. So it's like a kind of little media conspiracy. We're going to pretend that this is news. Having said that, thank you for letting me say that. I think that the weird issue is that in the Democrats' view, clearly and in the media view of the Democrats, Donald Trump has been disposed of. He's old history in Harris and Walls are the new story and the inevitable story and the inevitable victors. That's completely not true, I think, perilously not true. What we have is a did heat race. I couldn't predict the outcome at this point. No one can predict the outcome at this point. The truth is that her numbers plateaued about two and a half weeks ago, so this idea of her surge is not true. Her numbers among African Americans, particularly African American men, are better than Biden's but not great. Are her numbers among Hispanics? Not great? Her numbers are good among young people who famously don't show up to vote. I don't know what's going to happen here, and I can't imagine that this sense of the Democrat's self satisfaction is going to help matters.

We need four days of this? Why are these conventions for four days? I know why they're four days from the past, because there used to be a lot of stuff that had to be accomplished. At a convention, you had roll calls galore for many candidates, speeches, seconding speeches. I mean, it was actually rather exciting. Something was happening. Okay, nothing is happening now. The premise is every party gets four days of uninterrupted media time, even though there is no purpose in no news being made. So it's like a kind of little media conspiracy. We're going to pretend that this is news. Having said that, thank you for letting me say that. I think that the weird issue is that in the Democrats' view, clearly and in the media view of the Democrats, Donald Trump has been disposed of. He's old history in Harris and Walls are the new story and the inevitable story and the inevitable victors. That's completely not true, I think, perilously not true. What we have is a did heat race. I couldn't predict the outcome at this point. No one can predict the outcome at this point. The truth is that her numbers plateaued about two and a half weeks ago, so this idea of her surge is not true. Her numbers among African Americans, particularly African American men, are better than Biden's but not great. Are her numbers among Hispanics? Not great? Her numbers are good among young people who famously don't show up to vote. I don't know what's going to happen here, and I can't imagine that this sense of the Democrat's self satisfaction is going to help matters.

Did I ever tell you I covered the nineteen eighty four Democratic Convention?

Did I ever tell you I covered the nineteen eighty four Democratic Convention?

You never did, but I was there too.

You never did, but I was there too.

Get out of here.

Get out of here.

I've been at I think every Democratic convention could be. I must have missed some. And I was not at this weeks convention either, because because now I just go to Republican events.

I've been at I think every Democratic convention could be. I must have missed some. And I was not at this weeks convention either, because because now I just go to Republican events.

But I remember that convention well. I I was just off the boat from England. I didn't really know anything about American politics, but a magazine sent me there, and I mean, I found the whole thing astonishing. Just to refresh anyone's memory, was when Walter Mondale tried to stop Ronald Reagan being re elected for a second term. And it was the Moscone Center in San Francisco, and I'd never seen something like it in England. If you go to a political convention, or you're gonna have a glass of sherry in the Grand Hotel in Blackpool with a few sort of drunken low level party operatives. And then suddenly the whole of San Francisco was taken over by this party, and Jesse Jackson was at the height of his oratory CaAl powers. Mario Cuomo made the Two Cities speech, which was still the best political speech I've ever heard. Mondale had just picked Geraldine Ferraro the first woman VP. I was hanging out with some people from the Village Voice. They're the only ones who would talk to me, and coming from New y York, you despised Ronald Reagan, and not least for completely ignoring AIDS, among other things. And they explained to me the polling on Reagan was not great, and they explained there was this wellspring of disgust towards Reagan and how Mondale had a real shot. So I wrote a piece about that, about the coming of Walter Mondale. And then a few months later there was the election in which he lost every single state except his own, which he won by I think zero point eight percent. So in that moment of seeing the sort of giddiness of the Democratic Convention. I thought, she's not going to lose every state. But are we kidding ourselves here? Have we worked ourselves up into a sort of delusional optimism?

But I remember that convention well. I I was just off the boat from England. I didn't really know anything about American politics, but a magazine sent me there, and I mean, I found the whole thing astonishing. Just to refresh anyone's memory, was when Walter Mondale tried to stop Ronald Reagan being re elected for a second term. And it was the Moscone Center in San Francisco, and I'd never seen something like it in England. If you go to a political convention, or you're gonna have a glass of sherry in the Grand Hotel in Blackpool with a few sort of drunken low level party operatives. And then suddenly the whole of San Francisco was taken over by this party, and Jesse Jackson was at the height of his oratory CaAl powers. Mario Cuomo made the Two Cities speech, which was still the best political speech I've ever heard. Mondale had just picked Geraldine Ferraro the first woman VP. I was hanging out with some people from the Village Voice. They're the only ones who would talk to me, and coming from New y York, you despised Ronald Reagan, and not least for completely ignoring AIDS, among other things. And they explained to me the polling on Reagan was not great, and they explained there was this wellspring of disgust towards Reagan and how Mondale had a real shot. So I wrote a piece about that, about the coming of Walter Mondale. And then a few months later there was the election in which he lost every single state except his own, which he won by I think zero point eight percent. So in that moment of seeing the sort of giddiness of the Democratic Convention. I thought, she's not going to lose every state. But are we kidding ourselves here? Have we worked ourselves up into a sort of delusional optimism?

Very possibly, I think more accurately, nobody knows. And certainly the idea that we are on the great train to victory and to liberal reign is potentially delusional. And the delusion or the expectation I think dangerous. I mean, it's dangerous for the Democrats. Having said that, the Republicans are not exactly in good shape at this point. So this whole idea within the Trump circles. What has been happening recently is what they call his lack of focus, and they keep saying, you've got to focus, but also his refusal to follow the script that everybody is laid out for him. And the script is a straightforward one. The economy and the border. The economy and the border, The economy and the border. That's what everyone around him is telling him. If he simply stays on script, he has a very good chance yet of winning this There was that speech at Bedminster, Oh yeah, the food, Yes, to talk about inflation. And one of the interesting things about Bedminster, which is a really weird place. It's a Trump golf club, essentially the country club. It's like mar A Lago. I mean, he's the guy who just lives at country clubs. But the other thing about Bedminster is that there are a lot of flies. I don't know if it's about that part of New Jersey, but there are flies all over the place. And when he gave that speech, which was all supposed to be about the economy, that were the Bedminster flies. But there were even more flies because there was all this food out there baking in the sun. And if you watch that, and nobody comments on this, but he keeps swatting this so and that became the distraction, part of the distraction that moves them off of talking about the economy and onto talking about her again. It's holy ad hominem. She's incompetent, she's stupid. It has nothing to do with policy, it has nothing to do with where she stands politically. It's just about his antipathy to her and resentment. So everybody goes crazy about this, and they've been sending in all kinds of party heavyweights to say, you really have got to focus. And what he says is no you're wrong, he defends himself. Actually, in that speech, he defended I have the right to personal attacks. I don't think anyone in politics has ever said that even when they do have personal attacks, they're not personal attacks. This is, of course, I would never attack someone personally. No, I have the right to personal attacks, which occurs to me. That certainly an indication that he's out of control and that no one has any control over him. But the other point is that his personal attacks actually work. The demented genius that is Donald Trump may know what he's doing, well, he doesn't know what he's doing, but instinctively he may be onto something. And of course Donald Trump is a one trick pony. This is the thing that he's always done. But it has often worked very well in some manner. This worked on Joe Biden, who's been saying for the better part of two years that Biden couldn't do this, that Biden was walking into walls, or as Trump would say, he's a retarded individual. And of course we arrived, particular Danumont on that issue, everybody's underestimation of Donald Trump, and now the New York Times pointing out on a daily basis that something is going on here, and they call it a breakdown, but essentially that's what they're implying. But Trump having a breakdown is not necessarily politically disadvantageous to him. We'll be back right after the break.

Very possibly, I think more accurately, nobody knows. And certainly the idea that we are on the great train to victory and to liberal reign is potentially delusional. And the delusion or the expectation I think dangerous. I mean, it's dangerous for the Democrats. Having said that, the Republicans are not exactly in good shape at this point. So this whole idea within the Trump circles. What has been happening recently is what they call his lack of focus, and they keep saying, you've got to focus, but also his refusal to follow the script that everybody is laid out for him. And the script is a straightforward one. The economy and the border. The economy and the border, The economy and the border. That's what everyone around him is telling him. If he simply stays on script, he has a very good chance yet of winning this There was that speech at Bedminster, Oh yeah, the food, Yes, to talk about inflation. And one of the interesting things about Bedminster, which is a really weird place. It's a Trump golf club, essentially the country club. It's like mar A Lago. I mean, he's the guy who just lives at country clubs. But the other thing about Bedminster is that there are a lot of flies. I don't know if it's about that part of New Jersey, but there are flies all over the place. And when he gave that speech, which was all supposed to be about the economy, that were the Bedminster flies. But there were even more flies because there was all this food out there baking in the sun. And if you watch that, and nobody comments on this, but he keeps swatting this so and that became the distraction, part of the distraction that moves them off of talking about the economy and onto talking about her again. It's holy ad hominem. She's incompetent, she's stupid. It has nothing to do with policy, it has nothing to do with where she stands politically. It's just about his antipathy to her and resentment. So everybody goes crazy about this, and they've been sending in all kinds of party heavyweights to say, you really have got to focus. And what he says is no you're wrong, he defends himself. Actually, in that speech, he defended I have the right to personal attacks. I don't think anyone in politics has ever said that even when they do have personal attacks, they're not personal attacks. This is, of course, I would never attack someone personally. No, I have the right to personal attacks, which occurs to me. That certainly an indication that he's out of control and that no one has any control over him. But the other point is that his personal attacks actually work. The demented genius that is Donald Trump may know what he's doing, well, he doesn't know what he's doing, but instinctively he may be onto something. And of course Donald Trump is a one trick pony. This is the thing that he's always done. But it has often worked very well in some manner. This worked on Joe Biden, who's been saying for the better part of two years that Biden couldn't do this, that Biden was walking into walls, or as Trump would say, he's a retarded individual. And of course we arrived, particular Danumont on that issue, everybody's underestimation of Donald Trump, and now the New York Times pointing out on a daily basis that something is going on here, and they call it a breakdown, but essentially that's what they're implying. But Trump having a breakdown is not necessarily politically disadvantageous to him. We'll be back right after the break.

One thing that occurred to me this week is that given the late changing candidate, Trump has the incumbents advantage. We talked last week about people's nostalgia for how things have been, and at least just until COVID came, this continuity of his act. In a sense, it has that advantage of being something that people have known and people who like him are very comfortable with. It's not disruptive, as we might say it is. It's part of who he's always been, So why would he change that?

One thing that occurred to me this week is that given the late changing candidate, Trump has the incumbents advantage. We talked last week about people's nostalgia for how things have been, and at least just until COVID came, this continuity of his act. In a sense, it has that advantage of being something that people have known and people who like him are very comfortable with. It's not disruptive, as we might say it is. It's part of who he's always been, So why would he change that?

And that's the sort of counterintuitive point, which is that just a new face is going to have such an incredible advantage over Donald Trump over the old face. But I think you're right that very well may not be true. People tend not to like new faces, and they tend to be very comfortable with what they know, and they know a lot more about him than they do about her.

And that's the sort of counterintuitive point, which is that just a new face is going to have such an incredible advantage over Donald Trump over the old face. But I think you're right that very well may not be true. People tend not to like new faces, and they tend to be very comfortable with what they know, and they know a lot more about him than they do about her.

Yeah, and you have to say he kept the whole president act going when he wasn't even in office. The nomenclature of President Trump that how he had to be addressed by everyone around him.

Yeah, and you have to say he kept the whole president act going when he wasn't even in office. The nomenclature of President Trump that how he had to be addressed by everyone around him.

I'm not sure he ever noticed he was not in office anymore, which is another thing that people when he was in the White House would say that it wasn't clear that he noticed he was no longer in Trump Tower. Yeah, life really, other than the location, it really didn't change very much. And certainly his life in mar A Lango was a kind of a wonderful life. It's golf and people sucking up to him.

I'm not sure he ever noticed he was not in office anymore, which is another thing that people when he was in the White House would say that it wasn't clear that he noticed he was no longer in Trump Tower. Yeah, life really, other than the location, it really didn't change very much. And certainly his life in mar A Lango was a kind of a wonderful life. It's golf and people sucking up to him.

More does the person want what more? Who would want to lead the free worlds? When you have that? What do you make of Cary Lewandowski coming back.

More does the person want what more? Who would want to lead the free worlds? When you have that? What do you make of Cary Lewandowski coming back.

At this point in the summer. Trump's campaigns usually break down. In twenty sixteen, this happened when in the middle of August Steve Bannon, Kelly and Conway took over. July twenty twenty, there was a shift and Brad Parscal was pushed out. I think the background on Corey is interesting. Corey was really the first professional political operative brought into the Trump circle. He was never a very senior operative, and that's why he was working for Donald Trump. Because who thought Donald Trump had a chance of anything. But for Corey it was a paycheck and he really was around, if not the cause of beginning to get this campaign a huge amount of traction and surprising amount of attraction. But Corey was a difficult guy, constantly fighting with everybody. So what is he doing there now? And this was preceded there was a set of leaks. Kelly and Conway and Lara Trump went into se Trump at Bedminster, I think this was two weeks ago, and said, you have to clear house. You have to get rid of Susie Wiles, you have to get rid of Chris Lassoviti, you have to get rid of Tony Fabrizio, everybody. This is not working. Look at this. You have to retool.

At this point in the summer. Trump's campaigns usually break down. In twenty sixteen, this happened when in the middle of August Steve Bannon, Kelly and Conway took over. July twenty twenty, there was a shift and Brad Parscal was pushed out. I think the background on Corey is interesting. Corey was really the first professional political operative brought into the Trump circle. He was never a very senior operative, and that's why he was working for Donald Trump. Because who thought Donald Trump had a chance of anything. But for Corey it was a paycheck and he really was around, if not the cause of beginning to get this campaign a huge amount of traction and surprising amount of attraction. But Corey was a difficult guy, constantly fighting with everybody. So what is he doing there now? And this was preceded there was a set of leaks. Kelly and Conway and Lara Trump went into se Trump at Bedminster, I think this was two weeks ago, and said, you have to clear house. You have to get rid of Susie Wiles, you have to get rid of Chris Lassoviti, you have to get rid of Tony Fabrizio, everybody. This is not working. Look at this. You have to retool.

Now.

Now.

Trump doesn't exactly function like that. He doesn't a He hates people telling him what to do, and he's actually kind of conflict averse also, so you're fired, he doesn't really do so then the question is bringing Corey in a way to fire people without firing them. So the announcement was made that Corey was going to come back in and then suddenly Corey is calling people in the press and saying he's becoming the chairman of the campaign, so he would be over Susie Wiles and Chris los Avita. Now this is also, on the face of it, seems ludicris. I mean, Corey is has been, never was not a senior person. You wouldn't do this, So that had to be rejigged in terms of what was Okay, he's not the chairman. But then Trump started to say he's my special envoy, which kind of sounds chairman issues. Yes, so nobody really knows exactly what this means except that Corey doesn't particularly have a job. But so, I mean, I think the probably right now the thing to look for is whether Kelly and Conway comes back in as a special.

Trump doesn't exactly function like that. He doesn't a He hates people telling him what to do, and he's actually kind of conflict averse also, so you're fired, he doesn't really do so then the question is bringing Corey in a way to fire people without firing them. So the announcement was made that Corey was going to come back in and then suddenly Corey is calling people in the press and saying he's becoming the chairman of the campaign, so he would be over Susie Wiles and Chris los Avita. Now this is also, on the face of it, seems ludicris. I mean, Corey is has been, never was not a senior person. You wouldn't do this, So that had to be rejigged in terms of what was Okay, he's not the chairman. But then Trump started to say he's my special envoy, which kind of sounds chairman issues. Yes, so nobody really knows exactly what this means except that Corey doesn't particularly have a job. But so, I mean, I think the probably right now the thing to look for is whether Kelly and Conway comes back in as a special.

Envoy and she and Cary got to work together.

Envoy and she and Cary got to work together.

No, I would say not, and I would say it's that would be Trump's way of saying, you all fight it out together. He neutralizes everyone and may the best or worst man win.

No, I would say not, and I would say it's that would be Trump's way of saying, you all fight it out together. He neutralizes everyone and may the best or worst man win.

One thing I'm curious about when you say bringing in Lewandowski, where did these people come from?

One thing I'm curious about when you say bringing in Lewandowski, where did these people come from?

I imagine that a big part of Quarry's soliciting this and everybody is soliciting, is he probably needs the paycheck. Yeah, and where does the paycheck come. That's another question. Does it come from the RNC or does it come from the campaign? These are in some sense interchangeable pockets.

I imagine that a big part of Quarry's soliciting this and everybody is soliciting, is he probably needs the paycheck. Yeah, and where does the paycheck come. That's another question. Does it come from the RNC or does it come from the campaign? These are in some sense interchangeable pockets.

But yes, let's talk about men in the selection. It's very interested in watching the Democrats that they put forward this certain kind of guy, you know, Kamala's husband, Doug Mhoff, Barack Obama obviously, and then above all Tim Woltz. The kind of guys that.

But yes, let's talk about men in the selection. It's very interested in watching the Democrats that they put forward this certain kind of guy, you know, Kamala's husband, Doug Mhoff, Barack Obama obviously, and then above all Tim Woltz. The kind of guys that.

I mean, girly men.

I mean, girly men.

Well, I think when I was in the media business, I had some impact on the adoption of the idea of metrosexual men, which in time got replaced by a more popular concept of toxic men. And looking at the Republicans, you would say they were emblematic of toxic men. Jd Vance, Dana White, Hulk Hogan.

Well, I think when I was in the media business, I had some impact on the adoption of the idea of metrosexual men, which in time got replaced by a more popular concept of toxic men. And looking at the Republicans, you would say they were emblematic of toxic men. Jd Vance, Dana White, Hulk Hogan.

Toxick men, depending upon if you're a Democrat, right, you're a girly man.

Toxick men, depending upon if you're a Democrat, right, you're a girly man.

Let's call the metrosexual sensitive men. It seems such a unifying idea. Here were good men, which is not the most popular idea in the culture, and you had to think that was being posited somewhat deliberately. But do you think that plays for Democrats or does it just make them seem lame?

Let's call the metrosexual sensitive men. It seems such a unifying idea. Here were good men, which is not the most popular idea in the culture, and you had to think that was being posited somewhat deliberately. But do you think that plays for Democrats or does it just make them seem lame?

I think the bigger question is does it play for Republicans, And I think it clearly does. At the root of a lot of this maga stuff is a pretty old conventional idea of masculinity and also an argument that we've lost that masculinity, that somehow men have been seriously devalued.

I think the bigger question is does it play for Republicans, And I think it clearly does. At the root of a lot of this maga stuff is a pretty old conventional idea of masculinity and also an argument that we've lost that masculinity, that somehow men have been seriously devalued.

Yeah, so maybe Democrats are mounting a defense against that. I don't know. I'm still not quite sure what it means.

Yeah, so maybe Democrats are mounting a defense against that. I don't know. I'm still not quite sure what it means.

Yeah, let's consider this. Democrats certainly don't have a lot of doubts about their own virtues. This is correct, And I think one of their virtues is the men that they elevate then become part of this virtuous circle. So I think that's another form of their identity politics.

Yeah, let's consider this. Democrats certainly don't have a lot of doubts about their own virtues. This is correct, And I think one of their virtues is the men that they elevate then become part of this virtuous circle. So I think that's another form of their identity politics.

And I suppose what all these three men had in common at the convention was a deference to their wives. Of Stintimols's case, a deference to his boss, Kamala Harris. That's something you could never imagine hearing at a Republican convention.

And I suppose what all these three men had in common at the convention was a deference to their wives. Of Stintimols's case, a deference to his boss, Kamala Harris. That's something you could never imagine hearing at a Republican convention.

And certainly part of the subtext there is not about men but about women.

And certainly part of the subtext there is not about men but about women.

Yes, exactly.

Yes, exactly.

The Democrats win if they managed to be disproportionately successful with women. So now are those men a calculated message or are they a default message? These are the men we have.

The Democrats win if they managed to be disproportionately successful with women. So now are those men a calculated message or are they a default message? These are the men we have.

Yes, but Trump has pointed out recently that women love him. Have you heard him? Oh, yeah, that's his stumb speech.

Yes, but Trump has pointed out recently that women love him. Have you heard him? Oh, yeah, that's his stumb speech.

No, of course, certainly he believes that in the rat pack sense, in the political sense. Is clearly not true. But just because it's not true doesn't mean that he doesn't believe it.

No, of course, certainly he believes that in the rat pack sense, in the political sense. Is clearly not true. But just because it's not true doesn't mean that he doesn't believe it.

Yeah, you've been with him in mar Lago and with these kind of strange Republican cheerleader factions. Are they groupes?

Yeah, you've been with him in mar Lago and with these kind of strange Republican cheerleader factions. Are they groupes?

Yeah? The women at mar A Lago love him. I mean I often think that mar A Lago bubble is the reality that Trump lives in.

Yeah? The women at mar A Lago love him. I mean I often think that mar A Lago bubble is the reality that Trump lives in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I had this conversation with one of the Trump people once and I referred to mar A Lago as his camelot, and this Trump person said, maybe more jonestown. Here are these country club women. They all look like country club women. There are the women you would cast as country club women. And Trump is loving all this. He sits actually in the middle. He conducts his meetings in the middle of this grand, weird, grand hall, and then these country club people, all the Marilago members come past, and he's like the greeter. Also, I've heard, this doesn't change his lines. So he sees a mar A Lago, an older mar Alago woman with her daughter, and then it's always your sisters.

I had this conversation with one of the Trump people once and I referred to mar A Lago as his camelot, and this Trump person said, maybe more jonestown. Here are these country club women. They all look like country club women. There are the women you would cast as country club women. And Trump is loving all this. He sits actually in the middle. He conducts his meetings in the middle of this grand, weird, grand hall, and then these country club people, all the Marilago members come past, and he's like the greeter. Also, I've heard, this doesn't change his lines. So he sees a mar A Lago, an older mar Alago woman with her daughter, and then it's always your sisters.

Oh no, And what do you think these mar A Lago country club women make of Democratic women? That sense there's not much sisterhood being felt.

Oh no, And what do you think these mar A Lago country club women make of Democratic women? That sense there's not much sisterhood being felt.

Obviously, this is the great divide. I'm sure that they look at the Democratic women. They often see them as black women who would not be allowed into their country club. And Jews they're not allowed in the country club either. The country club, remember, is the ultimate homogenous grouping. We don't let you in if you're not one of us, I mean, which is very much part of the Trump thing. The only interesting thing about that is that all of these people would be billionaires, whereas most of the MAGA crowd appear to be unemployed.

Obviously, this is the great divide. I'm sure that they look at the Democratic women. They often see them as black women who would not be allowed into their country club. And Jews they're not allowed in the country club either. The country club, remember, is the ultimate homogenous grouping. We don't let you in if you're not one of us, I mean, which is very much part of the Trump thing. The only interesting thing about that is that all of these people would be billionaires, whereas most of the MAGA crowd appear to be unemployed.

Yes, and we kind of know what the Democrat men think of the Republican men, the enlightened men think of the toxic men, but it seems to have no effect on the population.

Yes, and we kind of know what the Democrat men think of the Republican men, the enlightened men think of the toxic men, but it seems to have no effect on the population.

Yeah, I don't know. And remember the other thing about Trump's men is that they're sports guys. They're athletes of a certain kind. But I often thought, what would Trump have been if he were not a real estate developer and not a reality star and not a president, he would probably be a sports promoter. So that last night of the Republican Convention with the UFC guy, Yeah, yeah, that's the kind of man that Trump likes. That's the kind of personality that Trump likes. And these people are hugely popular in the country. I had never heard of UFC until the Trump people say, well, we're going to do this UFC. I'm thinking UFC. Googli UFC in the UFC, by the way, it turns out then to be owned by the me and Harry Emmanuel.

Yeah, I don't know. And remember the other thing about Trump's men is that they're sports guys. They're athletes of a certain kind. But I often thought, what would Trump have been if he were not a real estate developer and not a reality star and not a president, he would probably be a sports promoter. So that last night of the Republican Convention with the UFC guy, Yeah, yeah, that's the kind of man that Trump likes. That's the kind of personality that Trump likes. And these people are hugely popular in the country. I had never heard of UFC until the Trump people say, well, we're going to do this UFC. I'm thinking UFC. Googli UFC in the UFC, by the way, it turns out then to be owned by the me and Harry Emmanuel.

Who's oh, of course your friend.

Who's oh, of course your friend.

Yes, yes, brother is Ram Emmanuel, an extremely high ranking Democrat.

Yes, yes, brother is Ram Emmanuel, an extremely high ranking Democrat.

Go figure, go figure that Tim Wolves is an Avid Hunter. I'm kind of entertained by how that court traction.

Go figure, go figure that Tim Wolves is an Avid Hunter. I'm kind of entertained by how that court traction.

Do you think he is an avid hunter or just now pretending to be an Avid Hunter? I don't know.

Do you think he is an avid hunter or just now pretending to be an Avid Hunter? I don't know.

I'm afraid school teacher might weaken avid hunter a little bit. There's a hyphen the teacher might take over.

I'm afraid school teacher might weaken avid hunter a little bit. There's a hyphen the teacher might take over.

I think we can safely say that Josh Shapiro in Pennsylvania is not an Avid Hunter.

I think we can safely say that Josh Shapiro in Pennsylvania is not an Avid Hunter.

So let's talk about September possible convention bounce, then first of the debates, then Trump sentencing.

So let's talk about September possible convention bounce, then first of the debates, then Trump sentencing.

Yeah, I mean there will be a convention bounce. There's always a convention bounce. I would say what to look for and we'll probably start to see snappoles on Sunday. Is whether it's a two or three point bounce or a five or six point bounce. So I don't know, but I think whatever it is, the likelihood is that this well then from that point on tighten up, and it will tighten up within the margin of error by the time of the election. So again to start planning your job in the White House on either side precipitous at this point. Then the debate is on the tenth. That's the ABC debate. And you'll recall that the ABC debate was agreed to by Joe Biden or was a CNN debate and then an ABC debate, and then Trump pulled out of the ABC debate and then rejoined the ABC debate. At least half a dozen people who in the past week he's called and said, should I do this debate? How can I get out of this debate? And I think there's the Fox debate. I think it's on the fourth, and I think that's still going forward, even though Harris has said she won't participate, so that may be an empty chair debate. And then theoretically, on the eighteenth of September is his sentencing in the New York felony conviction. We should know next week whether the judge is going to delay that beyond the election or whether that happens. I think that will be significant if it does go forward, it will be significant, probably in both directions. I think that there's a very good chance, and I think the Trump people believe this that he will get a jail sentence, and then that would be stayed after the election. But just a jail sentence will first be a phenomenal money raising exercise on the Trump side, will probably be a phenomenal money raising exercise on the Democrat side. So it'd be one of those things that clarified the absolute divide in the nation. And then we'll head into October. And one of the most sagacious things I have ever heard in recent politics is when Steve Bannon said to me, in these tight races, really nothing matters until what happens in the last two weeks, unless somehow there's a breakout here and Harris moves five six seven points ahead. So the last two weeks and that'll yeah.

Yeah, I mean there will be a convention bounce. There's always a convention bounce. I would say what to look for and we'll probably start to see snappoles on Sunday. Is whether it's a two or three point bounce or a five or six point bounce. So I don't know, but I think whatever it is, the likelihood is that this well then from that point on tighten up, and it will tighten up within the margin of error by the time of the election. So again to start planning your job in the White House on either side precipitous at this point. Then the debate is on the tenth. That's the ABC debate. And you'll recall that the ABC debate was agreed to by Joe Biden or was a CNN debate and then an ABC debate, and then Trump pulled out of the ABC debate and then rejoined the ABC debate. At least half a dozen people who in the past week he's called and said, should I do this debate? How can I get out of this debate? And I think there's the Fox debate. I think it's on the fourth, and I think that's still going forward, even though Harris has said she won't participate, so that may be an empty chair debate. And then theoretically, on the eighteenth of September is his sentencing in the New York felony conviction. We should know next week whether the judge is going to delay that beyond the election or whether that happens. I think that will be significant if it does go forward, it will be significant, probably in both directions. I think that there's a very good chance, and I think the Trump people believe this that he will get a jail sentence, and then that would be stayed after the election. But just a jail sentence will first be a phenomenal money raising exercise on the Trump side, will probably be a phenomenal money raising exercise on the Democrat side. So it'd be one of those things that clarified the absolute divide in the nation. And then we'll head into October. And one of the most sagacious things I have ever heard in recent politics is when Steve Bannon said to me, in these tight races, really nothing matters until what happens in the last two weeks, unless somehow there's a breakout here and Harris moves five six seven points ahead. So the last two weeks and that'll yeah.

We've talked from two different perspectives today. One is that Trump is having a breakdown and doesn't know what to do next. The other is that doing what he's doing has worked and might continue to work. Which side do lean to.

We've talked from two different perspectives today. One is that Trump is having a breakdown and doesn't know what to do next. The other is that doing what he's doing has worked and might continue to work. Which side do lean to.

What he does works? The question is does it work enough? It certainly works on his forty seven, forty eight, forty nine percent. I wonder if, though it's an aspect of repetition and time, he just says it again and again and again. Now, I think there's a different effect when you say it again and again over eighteen months than there is saying it again and again over three months, and that may be her advantage. On the other hand, repetition is extraordinarily powerful, and most people are not shameless enough to keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

What he does works? The question is does it work enough? It certainly works on his forty seven, forty eight, forty nine percent. I wonder if, though it's an aspect of repetition and time, he just says it again and again and again. Now, I think there's a different effect when you say it again and again over eighteen months than there is saying it again and again over three months, and that may be her advantage. On the other hand, repetition is extraordinarily powerful, and most people are not shameless enough to keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

That's such a good point. Our tendency as media people, as magazine people is to say Donald Trump is last year's man, Donald Trump is over not sure that's gonna do it.

That's such a good point. Our tendency as media people, as magazine people is to say Donald Trump is last year's man, Donald Trump is over not sure that's gonna do it.

I think now this whole idea on the Democrat side and on the media side, Hello New York Times, that he's a goner. He's been dealt with. Goodbye. Clearly it is wishful. Yes, we'll meet here again to see if it's accurate. But this is Donald Trump. We are in the ninth year of.

I think now this whole idea on the Democrat side and on the media side, Hello New York Times, that he's a goner. He's been dealt with. Goodbye. Clearly it is wishful. Yes, we'll meet here again to see if it's accurate. But this is Donald Trump. We are in the ninth year of.

This astonishing think of how I feel. Thank God for term limits. Thank you, Michael. Let's pick this up again this time next week.

This astonishing think of how I feel. Thank God for term limits. Thank you, Michael. Let's pick this up again this time next week.

Great, thank you. That's all the time we have for today. We'll be back next week.

Great, thank you. That's all the time we have for today. We'll be back next week.

Fire and Fury. The podcast is hosted and executive produced by Michael Wolfe and James Truman. The producers are Adam Waller and Emily Marinoff. Executive producers for Kaleidoscope are Mangesh had to get A and Os Valascian, executive producers for iHeart On, Nikki Etour and Katrina Novel.

Fire and Fury. The podcast is hosted and executive produced by Michael Wolfe and James Truman. The producers are Adam Waller and Emily Marinoff. Executive producers for Kaleidoscope are Mangesh had to get A and Os Valascian, executive producers for iHeart On, Nikki Etour and Katrina Novel.

You know who I used to make music for podcasts. My dentist. That was his hobby.

You know who I used to make music for podcasts. My dentist. That was his hobby.

I did he have any hits

I did he have any hits