Fighting Words with George M. Johnson“If It Doesn’t Scare You, It’s Not Worth Doing” (w/ Gabrielle Union)
George is joined by the iconic Gabrielle Union. An actress (Bring It On, The Inspection), producer, activist and author of three books, Gabrielle talks to George about on-set drama being dredged up from the past, how to get the best work out of her fellow creatives, and what it's like raising a trans child in Trump's America. This week’s queer artist spotlight is “Locked In” by Damez.
What kind of people are you?
What kind of allies do you claim to be? Who really exists when no one is watching? If you are more concerned about what your fellow racists think about you, you've already lost.
That's actress Gabrielle Union. You probably know her from her roles and bring it on. Deliver us from Eva and the Inspection, or my personal favorite being Mary Jane. She's also a producer and the author of three books, and she's been an example for how to be there as a parent to a transgender child. Her daughter, Ziah, came out as trans in twenty twenty. If I know one thing about Gabrielle Union, it's that she does not mince her words, even when she's speaking to students at her daughter's high.
School, and I challenge them.
Whatever that fear was, that was like, if I speak up in real time as racism is happening, I'm going to lose that inside position of having a seat at the table or whatever. And I constantly have to remind people that losing a seat at a shitty table saves you from having shit on your face.
Or pre merg singing in them heavy handed talking about the world.
Take as if a brandy spoken guy.
You know what the plan is?
Latin yount want to understand me.
My name is George M. Johnson.
I am the Immy nominated New York Times best selling author of the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is also the second most BAM book in the United States.
This is Fighting.
Words, a show where we take you to the front lines of the culture wars with the people who are using their words to make change and who refuse to be silent.
Today on the show, Gabrielle Union.
Well, hey, gab yours, we are here today with one of my favorite people in the world, Gabrielle Union. I think you know, society always gives us labels and monikers, but people sometimes don't know who we are. So if you could just tell us who is Gabrielle Union.
Well there's Gabrielle Union, who kind of feels like is not of me.
It's like a creation, right.
And then there's Nicki Union, which is who I am to my family because literally no one in my family calls me Gabrielle. They call me Nicki and have sense birth. So Nicki Union is funny. You know, sometimes my humor is a little dark. Sometimes my humor is a little inappropriate, but for the most part, I'm pretty funny. I don't know if late back is the right word. I tend to be very serious about things that can impact my life or other people's lives negatively or I mean, like how I take life kind of just a little bit more seriously. I am a good listener. I'm very observant. I love silence, which I think makes people uncomfortable.
I really really enjoy silence.
I enjoy my own company, so I don't feel like I have to go with the crowd though I love my friends and I love my family, you know, but like, there's nothing I would love more than to chill in the backyard with a cold beer, maybe a slip, and my.
Family, you know what I mean.
I love that silence was I think is the one that shocked me to my most really, but I get it.
As an author, I'm by myself a lot, but.
I like it.
And you are an acclaimed author yourself. What is that process like for you when you were writing your first two books?
Oh god, it was therapy, I mean because it literally started as therapy. They were homework assignments from my therapist of Jee's twenty seven years now. It just kind of evolved from there. I had to do a lot of introspection and really looked very hard at myself in the mirror because I could even detect the lies in the homework, and I had to get to a place where I was comfortable with telling the full truth. And you know, it sounds easy, but you don't know how people are going to receive your truth and how it may impact other people's lives.
That was the hardest part of the work, to be honest.
You optioned my book All Boys Aren't Blue some years back, and I remember those first meetings, how hard it was, but how great you were with like just remember, like, I'm critiquing this work, and I know this work is about you, but I'm not necessarily critiquing you, which made me very comfortable because you had such a grace and a care. How has that been for you, Because you've made the transition from being an actress and being an author to having your own production company where you have to give the notes and you are the boss. How's that experience been for you?
A learning experience because I tend to be very direct, and me being direct isn't always as you know, I appreciate it as I intended to be. I don't like people to beat around the bush with me. It irritates me to know, and it feels so insulting the notion that someone would think I need my handheld for you to deliver whatever your truth is to me that is ultimately supposed to help me. Just hit me right between the eyes. So I took that.
And applied it to the people I work with.
And the reaction is not like my own, and I had to figure out how to deliver notes with a little bit more care and consideration for each individual artist that I was speaking to.
We're literally not all created exactly the same.
And what I may appreciate, it could trigger somebody to circle the drain, and I have to be cognizant and considerate of that.
So, and do you think your career as an actress prepared you for that because you have been on the other side of receiving notes for so many years.
Well, you know what, you would think it would help. But I've never been a sensitive actor at all. I was the person who worked with Michael Bay and didn't really think of him as as anything but kind of a pussycat I'm like, I played sports, I'm used to people yelling direction mid stream.
I had a friend who was like, don't do bad boys too. He made me cry every day on the.
Set of You Know, and I was like, huh, yeah, I'm not really that sensitive. So as an actor, I'm just like, please just give me the direction quickly and efficiently. I hate the notion of wasting time. I hate the notion of camera being held for me. Just as quickly and as thoroughly as you can give me direction and notes, the better for everybody.
I wanted to ask Gabrielle about something that the actor Matthew Lawrence said about her on the podcast Magical Rewind recently. Matthew and Gabrielle worked together on the nineteen ninety nine film h E. Double Hockey Sticks, and according to Matthew, Gabrielle reported him to the director for not wanting to run lines with her. After Matthew told this story, Twitter kind of exploded to defend Gabrielle. It was interesting logging into Twitter today. You were getting a lot of love because the people were definitely showing up in support, warding you simply doing your job and almost being condemned for it for asking another actor to simply rehearse their lines.
Okay, so wait about since I'm not on Twitter, right like I left Twitter? Yes, yes, but I'm not on there. So this morning, my girl Jamel Hill sends me what she had posted about it, and I was like, shut up, that this is a real thing. I was like, God, bless Matti Lawrence, which is what we called him at the time of filming because he was a child, and Matt and Will they were the stars of this illustrious movie.
I don't know if you've heard of it, HG.
Double Hockey Sticks, where Jesus God has sent me the archangel Gabriel down to Earth as a double agent to help a hockey team win the Stanley Cup or whatever. Yes, but they're the stars, mind you. I am the only black cast member and the only black person in the crew.
And it's also at the beginning of my career.
Not only am I not narking on anyone to the studio or anybody else. No, I'm not in that position to say anything to anyone. I'm just happy, right. But what I think they might have forgotten is that they were young, and they messed around a lot. Nothing major, but probably more than the suits would like. Now I have a photographic memory, so Baby me, as the person a little further down on the call sheet, I'm not the person who would ask for a rehearsal. That would be the director or the producers of whoever is in charge. But if I'm recalling correctly, they asked if I would ask Matthew to like run lines, just to kind of get him to settle and focus, and mind you, if we're about to shoot, we're all might so clearly if they're listening to be asked if he wants to rehearse or run lines or whatever, and he says no, I'm good they heard you, homie that I'm not saying anything.
Right like this.
Let me remind you the movie is called h E Double hockey Sticks.
This is not the Bond, you know what I mean. We are not doing Shakespeare in the Park.
So it was interesting. And I say this with finger quotes, that he would recall this and chose to use the words. I was angry that he refused to rehearse. And then I narked to the director and the studio and he got called to the principal's office or whatever. Baby, they had you in their sights already, because already they were trying to, you know, be kind and assuming that you wouldn't say no to your fellow actor, because they had already clearly tried to wrangle you guys and get you guys a little bit more focused. And if I recall correctly, I think they might have talked to your mom, matt Mattie, Matthew.
But yeah, that was interesting.
If I have that big of a problem, I'm just going to sue you, right, And by that point I'd already suit a major corporation and one so I mean child.
As soon as that send there, I was like, are we really doing this in twenty twenty five? Like Angry Black Woman on the set.
Nineteen ninety nine?
This is like two husbands ago, Like what are we even talking about?
This week's Queer Artist Spotlight is locked in by Demez.
Here's a short.
Cliff shots and I'm looking at you up.
It's funny and us fast and say.
Just think they need a mask and some a mask and making how to relax and Ale s been worry since you've been on the streets when my body's combined.
Yeah, I'll you're free. I'll give you all on my song.
You can listen to the whole song at the end of the episode. Now back to my conversation with Gabrielle Union. So, You've played a myriad of roles in Hollywood, but one of my favorite roles was you in Cadillac Records as well as any Inspection, because you've you've done a lot of comedic roles, but this was like something very different, and that also reminded me of like my favorite role of you being Mary Jane. That was the show I was stuck on, stuck on, stuck on. How have you approached having that duality of being a comedic actress as well as being able to do drama, especially in an industry that oftentimes tries to make you like choose one path.
I mean, honestly, I love what loves me back, you know what I mean? At this stage of the games in the mortgage, like the bank is so weird about wanting their mortgage payments. And you know, I luckily have had a good reputation, certainly amongst my own community, for being a serious actor, whether that be comedic roles or dramatic roles, and people within my own community are more likely than not to give me an opportunity to try things that maybe other directors or producers wouldn't. So when Darnell Martin reached out about me doing Cadillac Records, she saw something in me that no one had seen before and that I hadn't really seen. And I wasn't sure because I was so used to doing what paid the bills and what put people, you know, butts and seats, that I was a little nervous to step outside of that. But as my good friend Sina Leithan said, if it doesn't scare you, it's not worth doing. And so I jumped at the chance and it was a really transformative role.
It kind of changed my career, to be honest.
It opened the doors for other young black directors and writers and producers to approach me like an Elegance Bratton with the inspection and to trust that I can this kind of material in my hands is not going to be dropped, and that I'm going to put everything I have into it. The goal is to make sure that this is as good of a production as possible, that everyone is treated respectfully, and that we're all in a position to do our best work. So I take that responsibility seriously, not just as an actress, but just as a human being. I do believe it is my responsibility to positively improve the vibe the experience on set.
Yeah, especially because again you've been on so many different sets. Do people who are maybe newer actors like, are they nervous? Are you like helping them?
Oh?
Yeah?
Now, I mean the movie that we have called riff Raff.
The kid who plays my son, it was his first big role, and between me and his mama, who was on set, we just were very his play mama and is real mama, just very protective of him, just making sure he felt supported and protected and seen to do the work that is on his heart. And I try not to be like do you need that, and they're like, I'm good. Certainly, if someone ask for help, I will no doubt offer it. If I see there's a little trepidation or someone doesn't feel the weight of their own power, I remind you constantly, I reaffirm your place and your power on this set and the ability to impact the scene. Like you're not just here as window dressing. You're here because you are a force, and we want that whole force to be seen. And don't be afraid to peacock and let all your colors show.
We know you take your work very seriously, but I think you also take motherhood very seriously. How has that journey been, balancing your career with motherhood.
I mean I wish I had I wish I had better balance. It's a challenge that I've not handled well, I will say, especially since their dad was playing professional basketball, so our schedules weren't really set up for there to be a lot of balance. But thankfully, our village then, our village now is enormous and it's strong and it's mighty. Motherhood has really made me much more of a fierce warrior, especially since Zia, if you will, has been born. I had to become a different kind of mother. And I was a fierce motherfucker with the Zaire and Davion. But yeah, yeah, I just don't have any fucks left to give about how I protect my children and the people that have trusted me to have their backs.
It's just non negotiable for me.
Yeah.
Unfortunately, we all have to deal with the vitriol, especially around LGBTQ issues, trans people, just identity. But what we get to witness with you and your family is that you know, you've become a possibility model in so many ways, and like.
How has that felt?
How has that journey been, especially doing all of this in the public eye.
First, I have to say it's a little bizarre because there is no playbook on life just period. There's certainly no playbook on being a parent. But the just basic humanity for me is to love and protect, whether it's my child, a stranger on the street. My inclination is to love, protect, respect. So it's odd when parents musing again, my finger closes, normal parents struggle with these basic tenets of humanity. I've learned that the notion of what love can look like, that it's not just a word that you say to somebody, but that it is a verb, and what loving action looks like. That isn't always completely self serving. I'm okay modeling that I'm more than okay because I'm imperfect, but I try to stay accountable to myself and other people. When I screw up, I'm admitted, I'm trying to get it right. You know, at times I have begged parents to not turn your back on your children. They deserve at the very least, your kindness and your consideration and your protection. Don't be a part of the mob trying to snatch peace and much less rights, trying to snatch their breath. Don't be a part of that crowd. But we do it, and we proudly do it. We gladly do it, and if someone needs an example, we will gladly be that. I just implore people that little gnawing that you feel, that's your love trying to break through your trauma and let it in, Let it in, and I promise you you will never go wrong.
I promise you. But it's hard.
Like when you offer up the trans community as a sacrificial lamb. If you open the door to say, well take these people, Yeah, dummy, you are dumb as fuck, because now the door is open and they come in for everybody. If you truly believe in liberation, if you truly believe in the liber of all peoples, if you truly believe in eradicating the exploitation and oppression of all folks who have been marginalized, you have to cover everybody.
You are not a revolutionary.
Your revolution, your little bullshit, whatever you think you're doing this you're calling revolution will not be televised because you are not covering everybody. You are doing some kind of self serving bullshit, but adopting and bastardizing the language of true revolutionaries.
Now back to my conversation with actress an entrepreneur Gabrielle Union. To take it back to just a lighter side as we start to close out, if there's anyone you could play in a biopic? I always wonder about this about actors or actresses, like, like, who would it be like if you had the opportunity to play anyone in the biopic?
M Oh gosh, Wow, it's funny because I've been you know, I always go down these little rabbit holes of about different people and always learning about different history. And I saw TikTok about Teresa Graves and then I started trying to learn more. And she was a singer and an actress, most popular during the seventies and beautiful chocolate woman. But for me, it's what's not being said that makes me so interested in learning more and more and more. So yeah, maybe Teresa Graves. I mean, there's so many people whose stories are so deserving.
I just love biopics.
I do want to see more black actresses just having the opportunity to play people we don't know or whose stories should be uncovered.
Yes, I mean and whenever Kelly Rowland blesses us with the Donna Summer biopic, right, Yes, and my little girl tet Teanna Taylor doing on Warwick.
I'm very cy.
Yes, That's why I'm so excited for that. Oh hold up, hold up?
Or Sylvia Robinson, who was famed studio record label owner, you know, responsible for the sugar Hill Gang. That is a woman I want to play. Yeah.
And the beautiful thing is you have your own production company to be able to do it.
Yes.
I used to have a column that was called George's Tired what I would call out things that I just was tired of. This week, I'm just definitely tired of news alerts. I almost want the press to just stop for like a couple of days and be like, can we reset what press actually used to be versus what we're covering now?
That is what I'm tired of. Is there anything that you are tired of this week?
Oh?
Well, I don't know if it's me or more my accountant, but the TikTok shop I have a problem.
I can't stop buying things off a TikTok shop.
Things I absolutely don't need, but I feel like I do, and then I'll be searching for the content creator so they can make money off of my nonsensical ass purchases.
Just unleash me. Unleash me TikTok from the TikTok shop.
Yes, yes, how many lash serums, how many or three different ones apparently I need?
But please make it stop? Make it stop.
The last thing I always like to leave everyone with is just what would be your encouraging words for twenty twenty five? If my phrase with twenty twenty five is scorched the earth and everything I do, And so it's like, if I'm going to write, be as radical about it as possible, if I'm going to fight, be as radical about it as possible, because I have nothing left to lose and zero fucks to give. What would be your mantra of twenty twenty five for the people who need to hear something?
Uh Bob and weave.
Survive and advance in the In the words of the Great Jimmy Valvano, the coach of the NC State Wolf Fact, he would say, you know, just survive in advance, Just survive in advance. When my girlfriends break up with somebody, I make them watch the thirty for thirty, Survive in advance, the Jimmy Valvano story, because that's all we can do is survive in advance, organize grassroots, and you know, burn the bridge, fuck it, burn it.
You are burn It's so funny, you know. People always like, oh, be worried about the bridges you burn. I'm like, not if I never have to cross them again.
If I want to burn the bridge, you are so fucking foul, Like I literally can't and I would wish it would stop. So if I get to the point where I want to burn a bridge, where is the lighter fluid?
Like, give me a match, bye, bitch, right, and I'll forget.
You exist so fast, which is a gift I think that I have everybody.
I want to thank Gabrielle Union for being here today. Thank you so much for everything you do for just us, for community, for me personally, for just I don't know your spirit, your light, it just you use it to shine on others, and I think what you do is just and valuable.
So thank you, No, thank you.
I love you, George.
I love you too. I really don't think life is about the I could have been. Life is only about the I try to do. I don't mind the failure, but I can't imagine that i'd forgive myself if I didn't try. That is from the late and great and powerful Nikki Giovanni. When I hear this quote, it reminds me of my journey as an author and pretty much in everything that I've done. Writing All Boys Aren't Blue became the story of my life. But it wasn't an easy story to write, nor this is an easy story to sell. Originally, All Boys Aren't Blue was rejected over ten times by different publishers before I got that one. Yes, I remember how bad I felt during the rejections, but now, nearly five years later, since the book has come out, I can only imagine how bad I would have felt if I never put pen to paper to ever write the proposal. Life will come with this rejections. Life will come with many failures, But the biggest failure of all is if you don't even try to do what it is that you have been destined and purposefully driven to do.
And now in full this is locked in and buy the mask.
M Thanks for listening to fighting words, and we hope you'll join us for another round next week.
You can't be the shot, and I'll be the flask, and I'm making you high.
It's funny and glass be class.
Can day you stink, I'm may need a mask and I'm a mask and make your howt to relax. And it's been away since you've been on my spine and my small on the street poets. When my body's combined.
Yeah, I'll be your free.
I'll give you all on my tongue steak with this son, I think I made up my mom. I can have me out as you own it, and I'll pick up for you another you called me.
You didn't get your boble then until the neighbor's day. Some about your ride and I love it with loud said, do you feel so gray?
And you kill me?
I'm so late. I seven months along. Hey, I think my body, I'm so day. How are we giving you up? Remembering the movie you eating me up? Shoot my body in school? Maybe we can go around and fool they conclude. I just want you to go around. I don't mean any group. You can have me. I'll ever you call me and I'll pick up for you whenever you call me. I need know about the bed until the neighbor started. And it's some my body rider and I love it when we die. And do you feel so any gray?
So God give me I sow you give me a something, SKay, I think my body.
I'll sew maids spend a nut long time all the time. But I'm worry. I'm telling so I need you got it and better what you want? You got any? Can I get you all me something, all of you no matter what we do for I know we know into aybody wrong Ben, Yeah, I love.
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Fighting Words is a production of iHeart podcast in partnership with Best Case Studios, I'm Georgia and Johnson. This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are Myself and Tweety pu Gar Song with Adam Pinkins and Brick Cat for Best Case Studios. The theme song was written and composed by Covid ban Bianna and Myself. Original music by Kovas. This episode was edited and mixed by Daniel terrek Our. iHeart team is Ali Perry and Karl Ketel. Following rap Fighting Words, Wherever you get your podcasts
