Fearlessly Failing with Lola Berry711. Fearlessly Failing - Jenny Valentish: An Introverts Guide to Leaving the House
Meet Jenny; she's a writer, journo and podcaster. And she's just bought a book that I think you'll like. It's called "An Introverts Guide to Leaving the House." It's advice and a toolkit of sorts for introverts. It will help you to navigate pretty much any social scenario.
One of my fave chapters is called "How to hit a party like a SWAT team" because I don't know about you, but I don't like going to big parties, I just get so awkward and don't know what to do with myself. These tips and tricks are easy to implement and since reading the book I've already changed the way I approach larger social gatherings.
Jenny, thank you for the honest and kind chat, i hope this book flys and I'm sure it will! And thank you for teaching me that I'm a high-masking introvert. Because I seem like an extrovert but deep down I'm an introvert.
If you'd like to get your hands on Jenny's newest book, it's officially available in Australia and NZ tomorrow. You can order your copy here!
And you can follow Jenny's journey on insta too. She's also completed in body building and loves all things fitness. Follow Jenny here!
Big love, and thank you for jumping on the pod
Lola Lola's insta
Get a I'm Lala Berry, nutritionist, author, actor, TV presenter and professional oversharer. This podcast is all about celebrating failure because I believe.
It's a chance for us to learn, grow and face our blind spots.
Each week, I'll interview a different guest about their highs.
As well as their lows, all in a bid to inspire us to fearlessly fail.
Hello Gangles. Today's episode is a ripper. Jenny Valentiche has jumped on the pod to celebrate her new book that is literally dropping tomorrow. So if you're listening to this on Monday, the book is officially on sale all over Australia tomorrow and if you get lucky, sometimes bookstores pop them in a day early. So it's called an Introverts Guide to Leaving the House, Solid advice for introverts, awkwards, sociophobes, and standoff.
Each issues.
Stand offis I can't say that my brain and mouth woon't say that. It's really fascinating And when I sat down with Jenny, I was like, I'm an introvert and she was like what.
And it's actually Jenny.
That taught me that I can function like I can mask as an extrovert, but deep down I'm really an introvert and love being alone and I'm a homebody in all those things. Anyway, very cool chat, very very interesting, and of this new book we deep overt and I've got to say one of my favorite chapters is how to hit a Party like a Swat Team.
It is so fascinating, so cool. We talk about.
Small talk, we talk about the power of solo travel. It is just a really cool, honest and open chat. This book is officially, like I said, out tomorrow, Jenny.
Thank you for jumping on the pod. And I know Jenny was like when you recorded this.
Was like super jet lagged, had only landed from the other side of the world literally the day before, and still made it into the studio, made it happen.
What a trooper. So thank you, Jenny. I hope this book goes gangbusters. I'm sure it will to you.
The Listener and Introverts Guide to Leaving the House is officially available now well tomorrow, but now wish all right, big love.
Enjoy.
Jenny Valentish, welcome to the pod.
Thank you made it happen beautiful with me.
Well, hang on, I feel like you've been overseas. You've driven a couple of hours to get here and we made it.
Yeah. Yeah, I actually don't feel the jet lag yet, although we'll see that it remains to be seen.
Okay, Oh you look fresh than you. Where have you been.
I've been to the UK, back to my home, and also to the Canary Islands, which turned out to be a bit of a surf Mecha loved it. Bro you're a surfer, no, but the casual kind of culture and you know, the cafes and stuff, which is ridiculous because I've come from the coasts in Australia, but it was kind of nice to get that little element of home from home.
Yeah, one hundred percent.
So you're I've got here journo author podcast. I also deep dive your pod.
Love it.
I know that it's not you haven't got episodes out in last little like a year or so.
But they're still there and they're great. Thank you fun.
I was like, oh, biohacking, sign me up.
Yeah yeah yeah.
So I when we to the listener, this episode came together really in the last minute, and I am so wrapped because I was sent your book and I thought, all right, here we go. I'm I've got four virgos in my chart, so I'm a bat OCD and like to go into things to be prepared. I read an introverts Guide to leaving these and I thought, hang on a sec.
This is great. So it's like a talk kit, really, isn't it.
It is? And you're actually the first person I've talked to in the media who's read it. So this is kind of mind blowing for me, especially because you know, I consider you to be a cards carrying extrovert, so I could be wrong, but the fact that you enjoyed it, oh my goodness out of.
It so much so you have actually hit a little nail on the head with me. Everyone thinks I'm an introvert, sorry, an extrovert because I'm chatty Kathy and love could talk underwater, which I can, but I have to then be alone to get my energy back. Yeah, and I love social interactions that are one on one, Like if you and I were having a cup of tea right now or a coffee, I'd be totally comfortable. The moment that group of people hits more than five sweaty palms can't handle it.
That does actually make sense to me. Then, because in the book, I talk a lot about the co steps of having an invisible high viz Fest is if an inch of it has a role. You know, I'm a journalist. I talk to people all the time. If I've got a role, I'm fine. Yes, when you don't have any guidelines small talk groups, yes, that's the problem for me. Yes.
And that's why I felt so seen reading your book. I was like, I was literally so. I was reading a PDF version on my phone.
I was like, all I was doing was taking screen shots of like my favorite pages. And I love this bit where you were saying I love to know like the headcount, the numbers before I go into a scenario. And I was like, this is I'm reading about myself, Like I can handle it if I've mentally prepared myself or don't me to research so I know what I'm going to talk about whatnot. But like even the other day, I thought I was going to a dinner with just two people and it ended up being I think seven, unbeknowns to me, I didn't realize until the cars were out the front of the house and I was like no, and I could just feel my breath like get caught in my chest.
Yeah. Yeah, I remember somebody else supposed to be going on holiday with a girlfriends and she just invited somebody else randomly with this. The more the merrier eth as and is like, what.
I've got a friend that does that all the time. She did Thanksgiving last year and I was like, Alex.
Yeah, it sounds like you're a high masking introvert then maybe.
But like I said, like one on one, like my cup is going to be so full, I'm not tired. Like this is that said to downregulate, I have to be alone. So I really I'm excited for this book because I really think that and I think we think, okay, well that person's an extrovert, that person is an introvert. But really, like it feels like there is like what did you call me a.
High high masking interuct which I just made up? You know, It's it's true, like you get people with autism who mask well sort of pass an adverted commas in social environ Yeah, so I think it's quite similar. Really, I suppose I am high masking these days as well, because when I was telling people I was writing the book, even some sort of relatively recent close friends of mine are saying, but are you an introvert?
Yes? Yes, yes, yes?
Is it not obvious? Wow? Apparently it's not so Yeah me, I suppose. I mean, not that there's anything wrong with being an introvert at all. It's not any kind of a flaw. But you know, if I'm trying to pass as being more socially confident in certain scenarios, it appears I'm fooling my friends as well.
Oh no, I honestly, I think the other thing is you're obviously you're a journalist, so you're smart, You've got your wits about you, do you know what I mean? I think people see that as confident in any scenario.
Yeah, but there are so many tricks as well, like actually said a moment ago, you know, we're really prepared, Like you've researched me, I'd researched somebody else. I also use beta blockers if I'm going to be on stage or something like that, which blocks your adrenaline. Yeah. So there are lots of workarounds.
Yeah, because public speak as well, don't you.
Yeah. I do keynotes and you know, facilitate panels and you know that kind of thing. So that kind of thing was I would have seen that date looming on the horizon forever, with a sense of dread as it got closer and closer, thinking why did I say yes to this? As I say yes, But now I don't have to worry about it at all as long as I've done, you know, prep, I know that I'm not going to be hamstrung by just your physiological system. You know, I'm not going to my voice isn't going to go flat or robotic. I know my heart's not going to be something. I'm not going to run out of breath. So to have that removed just really clears the way, because I'd be nervous before about I might have to go to some professional event where let's say it's a conference or something, and they're going around the room and each person has to just say their name and where they work, I'd be shitting myself.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I trained as an actor in Los Angeles and recently I was in a class and the warm up was called Kiddy Cat Career and you had to stand in a group in a circle, and one at a time you had to stand the circle and do a career as a cat, like an artist as a cat, a scuba diver as a cat, and the person that guessed the career would then have and everyone a cheer and you have to run in the circle and create a career as a cat. And I was I reckon, like my armpits were westy like dripping, and I love acting, but that I was.
Like, oh, I'd rather swallow raizor bloke.
Well, that's making exhibition of yourself. And it's also improv, isn't it. Whereas if you've got a script, no produce and you're not being yourself bonus.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And also I also think as well, like you said, if where you there's a reason for you being where you are, Like when you're doing scene study, like you said, you've got a script, you're there to get feedback, You're there to analyze a script.
Like it's very clear. But improv is like okay, on your own, you.
Got so scary. Actually, my partner is an actor, Frank I know, and he I realized. I don't know if he was doing it on purpose, but I realized a few months into our relationship he was doing improv with me. So in the car and things on walks, he would fall into some silly character and then I have to also oh yeah yes and yeah yeah yes end, And it just got me sort of thinking on my toes a bit more. And he taught me the rules of you know, you don't block people, you add and yeah, all the rules to improve that are actually really useful to anyone who finds conversation a bit tricky and needs a roadmap.
Yeah.
So there is a lot of improv coaching in this book.
It's so good.
Okay, so my favorite chapter, can I share with you how to hit a party like a swat team?
Please teach me in the listener.
Yeah, Well, parties especially difficult because you don't know what to expect. Yeah. So, I mean for these chapters, I talked to professional kind of warm up people, professional entertainers like Brian Nankervis and a guy called Mats O'Brien who runs this initiative called Tell your Friends You Love Them about bringing people together. And so he's hired by festivals like Boogie and Okay Motels in Australia to basically be there on site when people arrive and try and get them mixing. And he does that through games and things. So they were kind of my spirit guys in the chapter if you like, but if you're really nervous about turning up and who's going to be there accession, My top tip would be get there first, you know, whether it's sort of getting there even before it begins, and helping the person set up, showing your face. I call it actually shut up early, off early.
So good, so good, Sign me up.
Yeah. That way, you know as which sort of guest or guests come in, then they're the ones kind of put on the spot. You're the person who's kind of embedded there already. You can also have give yourself a role, whether people know it or not, Like, Okay, my role tonight is going to be snacks facilitator, or my role is going to be to actually look out for people who, you know, the wallflowers who are feeling even more awkward than me. Something where you just have a purpose so that you're not flotsaming jets, and because I think that's the worst thing about social anxiety is when you just don't know what you're supposed to do. Yeah, you're just floating.
No purpose, yeah, and then you're like get awkward and then you think, oh my god, I say the wrong thing, and then you think about that conversation that felt really awkward for the next flipping year.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And that's another piece of advice in the book, really is which I learned off Frank, my partner, because he can make any kind of social faux path like you can. Yes, he somehow convinced people at a party that we were swingers. Research.
Yes I read that.
Yes, I'm not true at all. He can't remember what he says, but you know, he's not bothered about that at all. Yeah, anything he says that is a bit kind of it's a bit hectic. Yeah, he either doesn't notice or he'll have a laugh and move on, whereas I would be overthinking that forever. Maybe I'll try and bring it out and make it worse.
Yeah oh yeah, the double down like accidentally.
Yeah yeah, let's keep going over that awful conversation here, let's return to that. Whereas if you if you move on, I think people give you the benefit of the doubt if they even noticed at all.
Yeah, totally. My boyfriend always says to me, it's done, don't worry about it. I'm like, what what do you mean it's done, It's not We're going to dissect it, right, Yeah, and he's like, well, what's the point It's done.
It's in the part, and I'm like, I cannot. I cannot.
But if he's more chill, have you tried to sort of pick up on some of that and adapt.
Top Yeah, I mean totally. I think.
I think for me, the way that I am in social scenarios usually is a reflection of like how I am in my confidence levels going into that scenario. So the way you were talking about like being a journalist and preparing or like today, like whah, I didn't really have too many nerves because I'm like, I know that I've done the best that I can do preparing for each guest today, and so if I can prepare, that usually will help, and then my confidence is going to be good if I'm clear within myself, which usually is a mental health picture for me personally.
But I mean, the final chapter of the book is it's called are you a control freak? As I am?
And I'm looking at one.
I mean by that by control freak, I mean sort of feels a bit anxious if they don't know all the parameters. Yeah, isn't prepared for situation. And I finished the book with that because I realized writing the book. You know, you come to realize things as you go as I'm sure yeah did too when you were writing yours. I realized that behind social anxiety is generally a fear of not being in control. Yeah, so I talk about Okay, so what are some more what are some less healthy ways of trying to control the situation, like using alcohol for instance, Yeah, and what are some more positive ways?
I know you're unreal I feel like I just want to have this book in my pocket at all times. Can we talk about small talk? Because there's two chapters on small talk and I feel like I'm allergic to it. Yeah, And I get a bit uneasy when I feel like I'm just talking about like really Monday, not Mondane, just things that I don't understand what we're discussing, like, and I'm like a lot of my value system is to connect with people, and so I'll have a really uncomfortable conversation if it means it's honest, it doesn't bother me.
But this the feeling of like swimming in small talk.
Yeah, I find uncom This is why we're a podcast, because you get to go bang straight in with the first question into something super deep right, Yeah, yeah, right, makes sense.
Yeah, no, look I love it. I could podcast all the cows come home, my friend. I'm like so obsessed with it. Like even when you were the black I think we were emailing each other at different times.
Of the night.
I'm sure for you or you're on a long whole flight. When you said yeah, I can make happin, I was like, right, okay, we're going to make this, Like this is total purpose for me. But yeah, what's your take on small talk and how can someone that feels like they're.
Allergic to it and navigate it?
First of all, nobody likes small talk great, So, I mean extroverts are sometimes referred to as golden retrievers, like just bounding everywhere and that is going inside out loving it. Yeah, but they don't like small talk either. It's just small talk's a thing that happens when we're finding our feet, you know, when we're trying to find an avenue into a deeper conversation. So that means we've got to be part of trying to apply that avenue. So it's tempting if you're an introvert to just ask tons of questions of the other person to take the spotlight off yourself. But A that's kind of boring for us sometimes, But B, you know, it's on us to provide those hooks to the other person to be interested in us. So I don't know about you, but sometimes I'd kind of get annoyed, like I've been in this kind of three or four person conversation for a while and maybe someone's shown no interest in me at all until they've found out, oh, she's got an interesting job or something else interesting, and then suddenly you're a person of interest. Yeah. But you know, I've come to realize, well, did you actually give them any reason to be interested in you at all? Did you provide them with any inroads into an interesting conversation? Probably not. So it's not that they're being you know, superficial, perhaps, but the fact that we haven't provided something. So it's important to, you know, look for these opportunities to volunteer something interesting, whether it's something about yourself, think it was in the news today, something you saw on the way here, and also to actively listen to what they're saying back, because when we're nervous, we tend to for instance, if somebody if we ask somebody their name and they tell us their name. Often we don't actually register what the name is because we're like, okay, I had to ask them what their name is. I've done that, yeah, but we forget to listen. So it's really important to both provide information, be generous with that, and actively receive it. But in terms of you know, people who really rally against small talk and it doesn't suit, I'd actually put the call out on Facebook for people to talk about their best kind of small talk scenarios, what's their go to question or something that they ask And someone made the point small talks actually really kind of toxic and not helpful to people who are inspection. Yeah, I thought, actually this is really interesting, So I wound up interviewing them and that became its own chapter called fuck small Talk.
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
And they explained how they don't really understand the rules of small talk because there are no rules, so it's just going off in any kind of direction. It's really stressful for them, and so they prefer to either kind of reasonably politely shut it down or or really just talk about something that's of significance to them, that has meaning to them, and steer something in that direction. So it's not small talk.
Yeah, but I like that take because I also think as well, like you can feel when things feel fake and forced, like it feels a bit uncomfortable in your body.
Yeah, you know, small talk's excruciating. I mean, you know, you see people, let's say it's some kind of events and people are mingling beforehand. You see people shoulders hunch, their drinks are raised quite high. They might be stabbing them, and then with the straw disappearing for quite a long time.
Totally, totally.
I love what you said about active listening. I learned so much being at acting school in LA And my teacher always says, when you're nervous, because if you.
Do a callback, you're not going to know your reader. You're not going to know the.
Five people sitting on a couch probably eating grapes while you're auditioning. Yeah, like it's pretty wild. And she always says, like, stay curious and tell me the color of your reader's eyes.
Yeah.
And so the moment you take the focus off, oh my god, what do they think of me? Do they think that I'm weird? Do they think that I look better with blonde hair than black hair? Like, oh my god, I went, like it kind of like gets you off this weird hamster wheel. Yeah, and instead I'm sitting opposite Jenny, who's got these beautiful kind of like I want to say, like Bluey Hazley Green, You've got a bit of everything going on in these but like you see how it pulls you straight away out of yourself and like it comes back to that active listening and then just staying really curious about the other person.
Yeah, well, we've probably been talking for I don't know, ten minutes maybe, and I've already had to remind myself early on be present, you know, like, don't start thinking I'm on a podcast. What am I going to say? Blah blah blah. This is a conversation. Yeah, Low is sitting opposite you. I almost like mentally remove all the background, the headphones, the mic.
Oh yeah, just camera.
It's two cameras looking at me right now, Like so good.
No.
I think that presence thing is key, and I do think when you're unfortunately though, when you are in a social scenario and some something that I do in social snows you might have felt this being a journal as well, like I become acutely aware of my status yeah, and especially if you're hanging around a famous person or something and you're like, you feel like an aunt in the room, and you're like, am I even meant to be here?
Now? I've got imposter syin drup and like all.
These other things are going on, You're just like, Okay.
Yeah, where I Where am I on the hierarchy of this ladder. I've noticed as well, because this is a book essentially about social anxiety, I've noticed almost like this self sabotaging elements creeping in. So the first time my publisher introduced me to a group of people in the office, yeah, they kind of had a chuckle. Let's see, let's see how you handle this as an inch of it. And we all went down had a coffee and I heard myself in that conversation slightly stammer twice, and I actually don't stammer. And I was like, Oh, this is interesting, is it? Because it is self sabotage and I'm talking about some socials, I'm doing it now, I'm talking about social anxiety, and so I'm expecting this extra scrutiny.
Yeah, the stakes feel too high or like early Yeah, and that's all on our minds, right, like we're making those steaks xietly.
Yeah, it's not.
Aren't we wild?
Yeah? Aren't we?
Can you talk talk to me about the power of solo travel.
Yeah, I think we can get so much out of traveling on our own. I mean, actually, when I went through a really low patch and I had a great job at the times, I was able to do this. I would just get on a plane to a different state every weekend on my own and just explore. And I was fairly new to the country, so like going to Adelaida, Brisbane, you know, a country town was even getting on the train was really quite healing in a way because it was your reliant on yourself. You're discovering things for yourself. There's no conferring or.
You know.
It's all about exploration. I think curiosity and exploration are huge for introverts. We really need to foster those things. So, yeah, there's a chapter on the power of solo travel. I talked to Sally who did the Kumino Trail. I talked to my friend Kate, who just travels all around the world on her own all the time. Much prefers it, and yeah, it's about it's about really getting in touch with yourself and seeing what you're made of. And also because you're out of your comfort zone, you really do kind of have to talk to strangers more and also want to. And Kate definitely advisors pushing that, you know, like let's say you're at dinner on your own. She's saying, well, you know, try and sort of infiltrate the conversation of the couple next year because they've probably been traveling together for weeks and a stick of each other anyway. Yeah, and then she tries to really come up with the best stories about her travels as well, really kind of think about what they are to make the conversations interesting, especially because she's our early fifties as I but you know she look in cred by the way she I'm fifty, but yeah, she worries, as we all do, that she becomes more visible. So the way to counter that is, right, I'm going to blow their little minds with these stories. I've got to tell how good? Yeah, So again it's kind of being more mindful about being social and thinking what can I share? What can I talk about?
And do you think having a good story like in your little like in your backpack? Yeah, is kind of a good antidote if it feels like, oh, we're stepping into awkward territory here.
Or like, let's just definitely I mean, my partner is one who really holds court. So yeah, he'll stand up to tell the story. Yeah, he'll stand up and be you know, sort of acting it out. Which isn't everyone's cup of tea, it's mine. I think this is very very amusing, and thanks for entertaining me. But there's probably a middle ground. Yeah, you've just got something weird and unusual that's happened to you that isn't completely irrelevant to the situation that we're in right now. It's a bit odd to use it otherwise.
I feel like so much of my acting training is coming in and every time you audition you're meant to have two monologues in your back pocket, and one like classic like Shakespeare or Arthur Miller or Tennessee, and then the other just like something contemporary that you love, potentially from a show or something. And it's so that if you auditioned for someone, they go, Okay, great, I need to see something else, and you're just like, well, what do you want?
Classic or contempt? And you've got it. Ready to go. And I feel like so much of this is mirrored in what you're saying, like by having that like. And I also think, yes, it's.
About being prepared and maybe knowing if you're a control free like accepting them and leaning int but like being prepared and being a control for it can be two different things, you know, like just going in really prepared.
I mean they're cousins.
Yeah, yeah, that's a good way of looking at it.
Yeah. I think it's the weight hand's machine thoughts.
Well, the cousins are I didn't ask you a straight out question, That's why I just let you fly. But the cousins that is like being prepared, having a story or do in the back pocket, versus the needing to control.
That's it. I was going to say. I think a lot of people are late bloomers when it comes to confidence, because the older we get, the less we care about what people think. And it's incredibly freeing. In my twenties and early thirties, I was tying myself up nuts about what people thought, which was quite vain really, because I don't think people were thinking about me nearly as much as I thought they were.
We're all doing that though we are.
Yeah. Yeah, so I think often we can be late bloomers to understanding social etiquette. You know, if it doesn't come instinctively, then you just have to teach yourself. And we were all taught to things when we were very, very young, so it's not like we just have these skills. So I think there's no shame in thinking at a later age there's more I'd like to learn, and I'm actually going to actively set myself in some exercises or think about what could be tweaked.
Well, that's why I like the book.
There's all these talks a talking, and like at the end of each chapter you're like, all right, here you go, and you've given you literally break it down into like edible like chunks where we're like, okay, I can try that out.
Yeah, And most of those things I genuinely came up for myself, probably in my late twenties early thirties was a really rigorous time of Okay, I don't think all my tactics of being a person in the world are working. Yeah, sometimes people seem to misunderstand my intention. Yeah, I do the classic things, Like I was a boys girl, so I'd hang out with guys more, which always creates problems for you if you're not smart about it. So I just came up with all these little things to try, like okay, you're walking into a room so high to women first, but tons of things where it was like little twiddles of a knob, like you've got a mixing desk, I'm going to try this, turn that up a bit, turn that down. And some of these exercises were around empathy, like putting myself in people's shoes more, which also gets you out of your own head. So like say you're sitting on the tram or something, you might discreetly look around and imagine like a thought bubble above each person's head. What are they thinking, I love that yeah, Or look at what they're wearing. Imagine them choosing the outfit. What were they thinking? Not like what were they thinking, but what are they trying to put across to the world. All these ways of taking you out of yourself. Realizing there's something called spotlight bias, which is where you can feel like your existence is, you know, causing other affecting other people's behavior and perception of you. So trying to like recognize that that's the thing and and see other people as autonomous human beings. You've got their own shit going on.
I love that.
Do you know?
I just had a psychic on the podcast right before you. Yeah, I think you met him out of the front and he.
Doesn't look like I would imagine a psychic look.
No, he's so trendy, isn't it.
Yeah, he's I just meant he wasn't very nice.
No, no, he wasn't like shanty shanty. He's like very gorgeous with his Louis Vuitton bag. But he he said to me, it's fascinating when you look at what people wear because as actually they're putting a message out into the world and there's a lot And I said, okay, what does it like. I've didn't really think sometimes I planned what I was going to wear today, but I didn't think beyond I feel comfortable in that it's going to be fun to sit in a seat, like it's not going to make me feel lucky, and you know what I mean, Like that was my thought pattern.
And he was like, well, no, you've chosen to wear green.
To me, that means like you're someone that wants to be around nature and nature is important.
And I was like, how did you know that?
Like, but it is fascinating when you get out of your own head and you get really like, yeah, I think, I know we've said this word a little bit, but curious about the stuff going on around you. I have to ask you because I like rite to write our author to author like, there's it's such a beast creating a book. And like from that first call you would have had with your publish art to then like maybe you picture a chapter or like and then it comes to life and it goes back and forth with your editor. What was your favorite part of writing this book? Because I know you've written other books, but what was your favorite part of writing this book?
You know, this book wasn't behaving for quite a long time. Really, Yeah. It was initially called does not play well with others? Nice? It was less kind of I hadn't really thought about it as being around social anxiety and introversion. It was more about awkwardness because I'd never considered myself to be an anxious person. But then I realized you were absolutely fooling yourself. You just you don't want us to be your brand, so kind of when my publisher and I started talking about it, it changed form. It became more kind of self help you though there's tons of memoir in it too, and it became more kind of pertinently about introversion and social anxiety. Of course, not all introverts do have social anxiety, has to be said, and plenty of extroverts have it, but there is more of a sort of overlap between introversial and social anxiety totally. But my favorite part, sorry, would be as you're getting to sort of draft two, draft three, they all kind of meld into one, but when it starts to look good and you're like, oh, it's great. And I had a little writer's group actually run writers' groups, but I also had my own one with other published authors, and we were all looking at each other stuff, and so I was getting feedback the whole time. And they weren't all introverts and they didn't have social anxiety. So it's great to just have that sort of input. As I went, what.
A gift to have been a writer's group while writing a manuscrict Yeah.
Yeah, some people advise against it, like you might get so pulled in all different directions, but I felt like I knew these people well enough to know.
Good barometers yeah, I love that. And then I have to ask, do you have a favorite chapter or topic that you really delve.
It's probably the one Are You a Star Seed?
I haven't read this, but yet, tell me, teach me, teach me.
So there's a few chapters called are you a Are you a job's worth? Yes, you better quickly explain that.
Sorry, no, I love that one job's worth.
It comes from the English expression sorry, I can't do that. It's more than my job's worth. Oh, it's above my paper people who are reluctant to help anyway. There's another one on you a Star Seed? And I'm just fascinated by some of the shonkier kind of spiritual life coaching out there, and this idea that someone's kind of got this special healing power when if you look at their material it's very materialistic, for instance, or seems to be more about themselves than being helpful.
It isn't not wild that that's in the health and wellness world, though, Isn't it weird that, like, shouldn't the purpose be to help others, like at the end of the day.
Rather than show that you're also living a luxury lifestyle in Bali?
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So look I did kind of shoehorn this in there because it's one of my favorite topics. Yeah, but it did look at the idea of people who historically, like as a child, for instance, haven't been able to express themselves very well, who you know, have have had big feelings but not very good at getting them out there, or weren't given the avenues to can to kind of create their own truth and universe and you know, idea of who they are and what they can do. So it kind of looks at how spirituality can sometimes sort of take a bizarre path. So, yeah, it's it's a kind of a wild card in this book.
Col Cool.
I like, I like also calling out that kind of yeah, that weird spirit Like I spend a lot of time in Byron Bay two and I love Byron Bay the best. But there's a lot of like life coaches and spiritual and very serious yoga teachers and I'm a yoga teacher too, but like, you know, and I'm like, well, we've all got to like chill the f out a little bit. Sometimes not all the time, but it's where that's like also like and I think that you're always going to get tripped up in your career if you're tying all.
Of your worth to the way you're perceived. Yeah, Like it's that weird extrinsic value versus intrinsic and and that's what I think can happen a little bit in that spiritual space.
And I think you and I, because we're both teachers, and because we are used to talking about ourselves, we are able to spots when someone's not a good player.
Yeah, yeah, it feels fake.
But then it becomes a bit of kind of almost like this self said, I spotted that. Yeah, yeah, that person is a crank. Yeah, it can become a bit of a you know, he's slapping yourself on your own back. I'm talking about myself now, No.
No, no, no, I love it. I no, okay. So I am a nutritionist.
It's one of them, a slashy so one of the many hats I wear. So I was so fascinated when I saw a deep dive your insta and I saw your journey with bodybuilding.
And I didn't know about Moytai. I did muy Thai for many years.
So my favorite thing about Muta was actually like the respect and spiritual side of it.
As well, But talk to.
Me about bodybuilding, because like, there are so many questions I have discipline, diet, the cut beforehand, your first meal after, like yeah, and also what made you want to do it?
I had written this book called Everything Harder Than Everyone Else? Why some of us push our bodies to extremes? And each chapter follows people who do different things. But it you know, hanging from fleshooks and BDSM clubs, or being a fighter, or being a deathmatch wrestler where you kind of throw each other into barbed wire and stuff.
Aren't you just well?
Yeah, I do love FLUI and I love John Ronson, these kind of people who are just so curious about the world. Yeah, but bodybuilding was part of that. And like most people, I think, I thought bodybuilders were probably quite narcissistic and that they looked weird and ridiculous and why would you want to do that? And then the more I talked to these people who were doing it, women specifically, I thought, oh god, this makes so much sense. Often it attracts people who've had quite a chaotic childhood, like inconsistent parenting or parental drug use. Often they might have got into their own drug use, eating disorders and they get to this point where they just desire, they crave order, and bodybuilding is all about. It's great for OCD. I mean, it's all about structure and disapn counting macros and counting reps. You're really self punishing, to be frank, but it can be It can feel like a relief to have that much order and structure around you if you're someone who didn't used to have that. So it started to make a lot more sense to me, and I thought, I would like to try this to see if I can do it. But I always try and tie something to a creative project, almost so I can hide behind the creative projects and say I'm doing it so I can write about it. Hahaha. I mean that way part of anything else. If you sort of fail at it, if you don't do well, you can chalk it off well you can write about it and being hilariously disastrous. Yah. You know. But so I ended up competing and I did actually get a gold and a bronze in different categories, and so you basically you you know, you put on muscle for it was about a year for me. Bit prior to that, I've been doing MUITEI, so I had lean muscle and then you spend about four months in the cutting phase. So essentially it's an eating disorder given to you by a coach. Yeah.
I was going to say, I don't feel like this would be fun.
All you do is think about food all the time.
Yeah.
So I mean you're probably on about fourteen hundred calories a day, but you go to the gym twice a day. Yeah, so you know, I'd go to the gym first thing in the morning, burn off six hundred calories I didn't have you, then go later and do the weights. So you're in a constant deficit and constantly thinking about food fastoned sugar specifically, and what you're going to eat when it's all finishes. And so I got down to seven point nine percent body fat, which is really unhealthy. Yeah.
I've since sun pickies though, great.
Pickies, And it's incredible to see your body change from day to day and always nooks and crannies come up that you didn't even know exist because you're so lean.
Yeah, all these like all small muscles I imagine muscles on muscles. So okay, So how did it feel to compete and win and like have a really good result.
I was so excited. I just wanted to it didn't I didn't feel like I had much skin in the game in a way, because I knew I wasn't going to do it once and I knew if it went horribly wrong that that's a story. So I was just so looking forward to getting on the stage, especially because you're backstage. Rages always run over the time and by the time it was my name is called all my number or other. Yeah, I just strutted out like I forgot all the posing. Really, I mean, I did it, but I did it like someone who's really proud of themselves, like a year old.
I love that, as you should have.
Yeah, And I was seeing a figure category which is all kind of like wonder woman posing. Yeah, And I just looked proud as punch. I wasn't really giving it any eventhy kind of the sexy stuff.
Proud as punch is good. And I have to ask, what was your first meal?
Well, that was a really bad move. Like you old in advance by the pros, You've got to reverse out of this, which means almost is almost like another four months just building up the calories gradually, not introducing any wild wacking new foods you've only been on like white and green foods for four months essentially chicken, yeah, chicken, broccoli, maybe the odd bit of ava, oh.
Yeah, because you wouldn't even cook it in olive oil, would you? Oh my?
Yeah, fish, whitefish, a bit of porridge and so. But my first meal was pasta bread cake, sucking tons of it.
I was like this, and you're gonna have diarrhea, right, I would have gone straight through.
I can't remember. If no, I think the opposite probably don't come out of about a year. I can't remember anyway. Then you carry on like that for you know, weeks or months because you're just like a kid let loosenerwe.
But also on a like physiological level, your body would have just been like.
What it's like is yes, because you've gone into starvation modes, so it wants to I didn't put on shiploads of weight, but it's like you've got this brand new kind of delicate ecosystem in you, like a beautiful ocean ecosystem or something, and then you've just like driven a tanker through it.
Yeah, like an atomic bomb.
Yeah, And so you don't realize how much damage it can do. But it basically all the stress of losing that way and then and then not you know, backing out of it properly knocks my progesterone out almost completely. So I was easterg and dominant. That can just cause absolute havoc. And so for a year and a half I had red panda eyes from itching and soreness and histamine and it looks like a good fifteen years older.
I get excellent stuff around my eyes me ten years straight away until you like calm it. And I was putting cold compresses to eastergen dominance as well.
POS not sure what pters is.
That's I'm an Eastern dominance thing where you it's linked to blood glucose levels, but it's also where.
You over you can get CYS on your ovar east and I've been really lucky on that front. So for me, eastergen dominance always has been about allergies, histamine, probably mass cell. Yeah, so's it's kind of like it looks like an affliction, but I'm lucky enough to have not had any of the other things that can happen five boys, et cetera.
Yeah, how lucky, well, weirdly lucky in a weird way. Yeah, oh my goodness.
Okay, Well, as a nutritionist, I could talk to you about this all day long, but it was I was also looking at your photos and you've got the highlight reel on your Insta of that phase of bodybuilding, and I was like this, I can see the addiction side of it too, like you, because you'd start seeing results, I imagine after like four to six weeks, and then you just be like all right, I'm locked in, Like.
Yeah, I mean I lost probably probably about ten k those in four months.
Yeah, that's pretty healthy though, that rate.
Yeah, except yeah, going down to seven point nine body fat was not because a healthy range would be something like twenty two to twenty five. Totally.
But I mean as in, it wasn't like you dropped ten kg yeah, like three weeks.
Yeah. But I have seen a female fitness coach on install your I respect saying, look, if you can see all of women's abs rather than maybe just the top two, that's a really unhealthy listen. Yeah. Yeah, I might get some pushback for that, but I would agree it. No.
No, I'm my Nutraath always told me that I have history reading disorders, and I would love it when I could see all my abs and he was like, well, now you're at the wrong way to be a woman, and it's going to step stuff up your cycles.
And I lost my periods right away.
Yeah. Yeah, I think once those last apps come in at the bottom, you probably even if it hasn't happened straight away, you are on a path to yeah, hormonal disruption.
Yeah, one hundred percent.
I mean, how great though that you've got this like understanding awareness.
Would you ever do it again?
I think there are ways of doing it more healthily? Yeah, but no, because essentially it's quite a selfish sports. I mean, you know, Frank and I our social life had to just disappear for four months. Yeah. I often feel like once I've done something once, I don't want to do it again anyway. So yeah, part of me was scent is like, you know, you can do it now, but yeah.
No, no, And also like you would have had so much body awareness and like and there would have been so many cool things that you learned from that.
Now.
I could talk to you, Jenny all day long. I am really excited for you with this book. What is your hope for your book?
I just really like hearing back from people when they've read it. I put out a book back in twenty seventeen called Women of Substances Journey into I never want to read this next thank you?
Well, yeah, mail, you're publisher, and ask for a coffee.
But it really spoke to people, and I got a lot of really incredible, heartfelt correspondence. Some of that was really tricky as an introvert to deal with, like, oh my god, someone's telling me their life story. I'm not qualified. I don't know all the right things to say. But at the same time, to see something just have an impact and realize people connect with it and it can be helpful. That's kind of what you want as a journalist, Like you want to make sense of things, and then if you think you've done that, you want to put it out into the world and hope that it does some good. Hm.
Oh yeah, that's a pretty good mantra to hair.
Yeah.
Well, I'm going to have all the details for this book in the show notes. I can't wait to hear how this book goes. Please stay in touch with me.
Yeah, we'll do, of course.
And I'm so flipping rap that you and I made this happen. Yeah, it's a lot of back and forth. We got there.
Yeah I was on long haul flights, but yeah.
Thank you to your big shout out to your publicist task for being like hunting me down and like being.
Like Ola, come on, so lovely to have you on the pod.
My friend and I will absolutely now go into a party like I have a full swat team plan going in there.
So thank you, oh thanks for having me on. Would appreciate it.
That's a wrap on another episode of Fearlessly Failing. As always, thank you to our guests, and let's continue the conversation on Instagram.
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