I'm Sean Aylmer, and this is Fear and Greed Sunday Feature Interview. I'll be back again tomorrow with another weekday ex episode of Fear and Greed, the normal mix of business news and interviews that sets you up for a successful day. In the meantime, enjoy our Sunday Feature Interview. How I Built This is one of the most successful podcast series in the world. It's hosted by Guy Raz, editorial director at National Public Radio in the United States. Guy has been a journalist, a war reporter, a radio presenter, and has formed a production company that is now responsible for five different podcast series, including How I Built This, generating over 20 million listens a month. He's just released a book, How I Built This, the Unexpected Paths to Success From the World's Most Inspiring Entrepreneurs. And this morning, we're delighted to have Guy joining us. Guy, welcome to Fear and Greed.

I'm Sean Aylmer, and this is Fear and Greed Sunday Feature Interview. I'll be back again tomorrow with another weekday ex episode of Fear and Greed, the normal mix of business news and interviews that sets you up for a successful day. In the meantime, enjoy our Sunday Feature Interview. How I Built This is one of the most successful podcast series in the world. It's hosted by Guy Raz, editorial director at National Public Radio in the United States. Guy has been a journalist, a war reporter, a radio presenter, and has formed a production company that is now responsible for five different podcast series, including How I Built This, generating over 20 million listens a month. He's just released a book, How I Built This, the Unexpected Paths to Success From the World's Most Inspiring Entrepreneurs. And this morning, we're delighted to have Guy joining us. Guy, welcome to Fear and Greed.

Thank you for having me, Sean.

Thank you for having me, Sean.

Let's start with yourself. Tell us, those of us here in Australia, a little bit about How I Built This, the series, where it comes from, and what you're trying to do.

Let's start with yourself. Tell us, those of us here in Australia, a little bit about How I Built This, the series, where it comes from, and what you're trying to do.

The show can be described as a business show, but I don't think of it as a business show. When I think of business shows, I think of Wall Street tickers going by on the TV screen and people talking about quarterly sales and this number and that number, and that's never appealed to me. Businesses to me is a series of stories and basically every business is a story. So what How I Built This actually is, is a storytelling show. I describe it, and it's going to sound a little weird, but if anyone listening has read Joseph Campbell, I describe it as a hero's journey. Joseph Campbell's hugely influential on George Lucas and even JK Rowling with Harry Potter and Star Wars. He codified this idea that all great epics share these narrative moments. There's a hero with a crazy idea. The hero has to leave the village. The hero meets a mentor. The mentor dies, the hero battles a dragon and almost gets killed and falls into an abyss, and then reemerges. I recognize that there many elements of that hero's journey in the story of founding a business or a company, because founding a business can be one of the loneliest, most challenging, most anxiety- driven experiences in the human experience. It's full of drama, it's full of catastrophe, it's full of collapse, it's full of depression, it's full of lying on the bathroom floor crying in the fetal position. And that's what How I Built This is, it just happens that we tell these human journeys, these hero's journeys and narratives through the prism of business. What comes out of it is this incredible reservoir of wisdom and knowledge and ideas and inspiration.

The show can be described as a business show, but I don't think of it as a business show. When I think of business shows, I think of Wall Street tickers going by on the TV screen and people talking about quarterly sales and this number and that number, and that's never appealed to me. Businesses to me is a series of stories and basically every business is a story. So what How I Built This actually is, is a storytelling show. I describe it, and it's going to sound a little weird, but if anyone listening has read Joseph Campbell, I describe it as a hero's journey. Joseph Campbell's hugely influential on George Lucas and even JK Rowling with Harry Potter and Star Wars. He codified this idea that all great epics share these narrative moments. There's a hero with a crazy idea. The hero has to leave the village. The hero meets a mentor. The mentor dies, the hero battles a dragon and almost gets killed and falls into an abyss, and then reemerges. I recognize that there many elements of that hero's journey in the story of founding a business or a company, because founding a business can be one of the loneliest, most challenging, most anxiety- driven experiences in the human experience. It's full of drama, it's full of catastrophe, it's full of collapse, it's full of depression, it's full of lying on the bathroom floor crying in the fetal position. And that's what How I Built This is, it just happens that we tell these human journeys, these hero's journeys and narratives through the prism of business. What comes out of it is this incredible reservoir of wisdom and knowledge and ideas and inspiration.

Businesses are full of great stories and let's start at the very topmost. You think of a business and when you want to personify it, you think about the CEO. They're just humans, they're frail, they have doubts. And maybe the difference between a CEO and others is that when the opportunity came, they actually leapt. Why did they take that leap?

Businesses are full of great stories and let's start at the very topmost. You think of a business and when you want to personify it, you think about the CEO. They're just humans, they're frail, they have doubts. And maybe the difference between a CEO and others is that when the opportunity came, they actually leapt. Why did they take that leap?

I focus on founders, people who started a business, had an idea and built it. What I found is that there are a variety of reasons why people take the leap. Some people are just hardwired that way. There's some people who are just born to be entrepreneurs and we all know those kinds of people. And by the way, we're jealous of those kinds of people because we're like, " How did you get that confidence? How did you come out of the womb ready to sell stuff?" You know the type, right?

I focus on founders, people who started a business, had an idea and built it. What I found is that there are a variety of reasons why people take the leap. Some people are just hardwired that way. There's some people who are just born to be entrepreneurs and we all know those kinds of people. And by the way, we're jealous of those kinds of people because we're like, " How did you get that confidence? How did you come out of the womb ready to sell stuff?" You know the type, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But the reality is that very, very few entrepreneurs that I've interviewed, and I've interviewed over 300 of them, and some of the biggest in the world, including several Australian entrepreneurs, the reality is that most of them learn how to become entrepreneurs. Most of them struggle with the things that all of us struggle with: with fear, the fear of rejection, the fear of people doubting their ideas, the fear of failure, the fear of it all going pear shaped. What I've discovered is that pretty much to a person, with very small exceptions, they all learn how to acquire the skills and attributes that one needs in order to build the kind of resilience it takes to withstand the pressures of, and the ups and downs of building a business. Really, I've become convinced over the past five years of doing this, that entrepreneurship is really a state of mind. And we, I think, tend to fetishize entrepreneurs. We think of these people as these... In Australia, you look at Atlassian and or Canva any of these huge companies. And the reality is that they really are just like us. It's just that they have learned skills that have enabled them to take the leap and to start this thing. So what I've come to realize is that most of us, we actually all behave entrepreneurialy over the course of our lives, whether we are working for a company or developing our own ideas. It just takes some kind of rewiring in our brain to recognize what we're doing. And so in part the idea behind the book is to basically throw this idea in people's faces to say, " You are actually entrepreneurial." And here are examples, people who did things that you are probably doing every day. And here's some ideas about how you can actually go to the next level.

But the reality is that very, very few entrepreneurs that I've interviewed, and I've interviewed over 300 of them, and some of the biggest in the world, including several Australian entrepreneurs, the reality is that most of them learn how to become entrepreneurs. Most of them struggle with the things that all of us struggle with: with fear, the fear of rejection, the fear of people doubting their ideas, the fear of failure, the fear of it all going pear shaped. What I've discovered is that pretty much to a person, with very small exceptions, they all learn how to acquire the skills and attributes that one needs in order to build the kind of resilience it takes to withstand the pressures of, and the ups and downs of building a business. Really, I've become convinced over the past five years of doing this, that entrepreneurship is really a state of mind. And we, I think, tend to fetishize entrepreneurs. We think of these people as these... In Australia, you look at Atlassian and or Canva any of these huge companies. And the reality is that they really are just like us. It's just that they have learned skills that have enabled them to take the leap and to start this thing. So what I've come to realize is that most of us, we actually all behave entrepreneurialy over the course of our lives, whether we are working for a company or developing our own ideas. It just takes some kind of rewiring in our brain to recognize what we're doing. And so in part the idea behind the book is to basically throw this idea in people's faces to say, " You are actually entrepreneurial." And here are examples, people who did things that you are probably doing every day. And here's some ideas about how you can actually go to the next level.

Do you think some of them they've learned from their mistakes better than I would, for example, though? I totally accept what you're saying, but they seem to be able to evolve themselves to that state.

Do you think some of them they've learned from their mistakes better than I would, for example, though? I totally accept what you're saying, but they seem to be able to evolve themselves to that state.

I would be willing to bet all of my money that you learned a lot from your mistakes. And here's what I say about that. Mistakes are hard and failures are really hard. Nobody likes it, right? I think the difference is that once we can begin to reflect on those failures and see a pattern in those failures, it becomes clear that they were necessary. They were actually crucial to the process of success. I mean, this is nothing new. I'm not a seer. I'm not inventing an idea. You can go back to Winston Churchill, and long before him, and find people who say success is essentially a series of failures that the end result is a success. What I've found is that founders who I've interviewed, whether it's Howard Schultz of Starbucks or Richard Branson, or any of the people that I've had on the show, they essentially have experienced failure time and again in small ways, sometimes medium ways, sometimes big ways that kind of create a... It kind of inoculates them over time. And I found that too, with what I do, that those small failures actually create better resistance to withstand bigger failures. Doesn't mean it's easy or fun, but it's so important and crucial because actually that's how we learn. That's how we grow. And that's why I focus so much on failure in the book.

I would be willing to bet all of my money that you learned a lot from your mistakes. And here's what I say about that. Mistakes are hard and failures are really hard. Nobody likes it, right? I think the difference is that once we can begin to reflect on those failures and see a pattern in those failures, it becomes clear that they were necessary. They were actually crucial to the process of success. I mean, this is nothing new. I'm not a seer. I'm not inventing an idea. You can go back to Winston Churchill, and long before him, and find people who say success is essentially a series of failures that the end result is a success. What I've found is that founders who I've interviewed, whether it's Howard Schultz of Starbucks or Richard Branson, or any of the people that I've had on the show, they essentially have experienced failure time and again in small ways, sometimes medium ways, sometimes big ways that kind of create a... It kind of inoculates them over time. And I found that too, with what I do, that those small failures actually create better resistance to withstand bigger failures. Doesn't mean it's easy or fun, but it's so important and crucial because actually that's how we learn. That's how we grow. And that's why I focus so much on failure in the book.

Kind of brings us on the idea of safety zones and LinkedIn founder Reed Hoffman talking about jumping off a cliff and assembling the plane on the way down. You don't quite have that approach. You talk about leaving your safety zone, but doing it safely.

Kind of brings us on the idea of safety zones and LinkedIn founder Reed Hoffman talking about jumping off a cliff and assembling the plane on the way down. You don't quite have that approach. You talk about leaving your safety zone, but doing it safely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Describe that. What do you mean by that?

Describe that. What do you mean by that?

I love this idea because I think we have this image of entrepreneurs as these brash swashbuckling, like Richard Branson jumping off an airplane without a parachute. But the reality is that almost none of the entrepreneurs I've ever interviewed are like that. Pretty much to a person, they mitigate risks. One of the examples is Jim Cook. Jim Cook founded Samuel Adams Boston Beer Company, Sam Adams Beer. Sam Adams Beer really launched the craft beer revolution in the United States. Now, any Australian over the age of 45 will probably remember a time when American beer was really crap. You would never buy American beer, right?

I love this idea because I think we have this image of entrepreneurs as these brash swashbuckling, like Richard Branson jumping off an airplane without a parachute. But the reality is that almost none of the entrepreneurs I've ever interviewed are like that. Pretty much to a person, they mitigate risks. One of the examples is Jim Cook. Jim Cook founded Samuel Adams Boston Beer Company, Sam Adams Beer. Sam Adams Beer really launched the craft beer revolution in the United States. Now, any Australian over the age of 45 will probably remember a time when American beer was really crap. You would never buy American beer, right?

I'm sorry, Budweiser: undrinkable.

I'm sorry, Budweiser: undrinkable.

Right, terrible. But I bet today there are people listening to this right now who love American craft brews, who really will go to their local off- license and-

Right, terrible. But I bet today there are people listening to this right now who love American craft brews, who really will go to their local off- license and-

Seek it out.

Seek it out.

... seek out. That was really launched, that revolution was launched by Jim Cook and Ken Grossman, who founded Sierra Nevada. And Jim Cook, at the time when he founded Boston Beer Company and Sam Adams Beer, he was working for Boston Consulting Group. He had a very secure job. He had a family, he had good benefits and all that stuff. And in the United States, we don't have health insurance. We have to get it from our employer. So leaving a job is actually a huge risk in the US. There's a myth about American entrepreneurship, but the reality is that because of the way our system is structured, it's anti- entrepreneurial in so many ways, because people are afraid to leave their jobs because we don't have universal healthcare. Anyway, Jim Cook, he really wants to do something different. He's just not happy as a consultant, even though he's making lots of money and he's on the fast track to partnership, he can see into the future that eventually he's going to have these golden handcuffs and he won't be able to leave his job. Private school tuition and a lifestyle, and he's in his mid- thirties at this point, or even late thirties. And he realizes he has to make a change. He has to create something on his own. He has this burning passion, but he's not ready to just jump out of an airplane and quit his job and go start a beer company, which by the way, he knew very little about. I mean, his father was a brew master and his grandfather and great- grandfather, but Jim Cook's dad, when Jim Cook went to his dad and said, "I think I want to make beer," his dad was like, " Are you nuts? I sent you to Harvard Law School, man. You don't have to make beer." But he decides that he wants to revolutionize American beer. He wants to make German style lagers in the United States. So instead of quitting his job, he starts slowly. Instead of leaping out of the airplane without a parachute, he starts by dipping one toe into the pond. At night, on weekends, he starts to research the industry. He starts to talk to people. He starts to visit bottling plants. He starts to experiment with recipes in his house. It takes him six or seven months, but once he has a plan in place, he is ready to leave. And when he leaves, he still knew that if it all went haywire and collapsed, he still had a safety net. He could go back to being a consultant. He knew that he could do that. And so he really mitigated his risk and most entrepreneurs do that. Most of them start that way. It sort of runs counter to our instincts as a species, to just run at the saber- toothed tiger. If we did that, we'd all die. So the idea of taking risk doesn't mean doing something reckless, it means taking a risk with an idea, taking a risk that you might fail, taking a risk that people might ridicule you, but you can still do it safely.

... seek out. That was really launched, that revolution was launched by Jim Cook and Ken Grossman, who founded Sierra Nevada. And Jim Cook, at the time when he founded Boston Beer Company and Sam Adams Beer, he was working for Boston Consulting Group. He had a very secure job. He had a family, he had good benefits and all that stuff. And in the United States, we don't have health insurance. We have to get it from our employer. So leaving a job is actually a huge risk in the US. There's a myth about American entrepreneurship, but the reality is that because of the way our system is structured, it's anti- entrepreneurial in so many ways, because people are afraid to leave their jobs because we don't have universal healthcare. Anyway, Jim Cook, he really wants to do something different. He's just not happy as a consultant, even though he's making lots of money and he's on the fast track to partnership, he can see into the future that eventually he's going to have these golden handcuffs and he won't be able to leave his job. Private school tuition and a lifestyle, and he's in his mid- thirties at this point, or even late thirties. And he realizes he has to make a change. He has to create something on his own. He has this burning passion, but he's not ready to just jump out of an airplane and quit his job and go start a beer company, which by the way, he knew very little about. I mean, his father was a brew master and his grandfather and great- grandfather, but Jim Cook's dad, when Jim Cook went to his dad and said, "I think I want to make beer," his dad was like, " Are you nuts? I sent you to Harvard Law School, man. You don't have to make beer." But he decides that he wants to revolutionize American beer. He wants to make German style lagers in the United States. So instead of quitting his job, he starts slowly. Instead of leaping out of the airplane without a parachute, he starts by dipping one toe into the pond. At night, on weekends, he starts to research the industry. He starts to talk to people. He starts to visit bottling plants. He starts to experiment with recipes in his house. It takes him six or seven months, but once he has a plan in place, he is ready to leave. And when he leaves, he still knew that if it all went haywire and collapsed, he still had a safety net. He could go back to being a consultant. He knew that he could do that. And so he really mitigated his risk and most entrepreneurs do that. Most of them start that way. It sort of runs counter to our instincts as a species, to just run at the saber- toothed tiger. If we did that, we'd all die. So the idea of taking risk doesn't mean doing something reckless, it means taking a risk with an idea, taking a risk that you might fail, taking a risk that people might ridicule you, but you can still do it safely.

You know, another insight in the book, and I had never thought about it until your book, is the idea that most successful businesses aren't the result of a single person, but a core of two or three. And when I thought about it, that often there's a founder who's higher profile, but there's almost always someone else. I thought that was fascinating. I mean, that seems to shine through in what you're writing about.

You know, another insight in the book, and I had never thought about it until your book, is the idea that most successful businesses aren't the result of a single person, but a core of two or three. And when I thought about it, that often there's a founder who's higher profile, but there's almost always someone else. I thought that was fascinating. I mean, that seems to shine through in what you're writing about.

Yeah. And it really does kind of speak to the hypocrisy of the title of my show, How I Built This.

Yeah. And it really does kind of speak to the hypocrisy of the title of my show, How I Built This.

Singular.

Singular.

Or my book. And I think about that a lot. I mean, I love the title of the book and the show of course, but it really is about how groups of people build something. Oftentimes I will interview co- founders, but sometimes I just interview one founder and it's a single narrative. And in the book, I really try and tell the stories from multiple perspectives and dimensions because some of the most sustainable and important and resilient companies have multiple people behind them. I can't think of a single example of one person having a light bulb moment and saying " Eureka! I know exactly what to do." And then going and starting this thing on their own. I mean, for every Steve Jobs, there's a Steve Wozniak, and there's a Johnny Ive who comes up with... We venerate Steve Jobs, but he didn't actually invent anything. His genius was as a marketer. And also as kind of a perfectionist, he could look at a product and he could say, " No, that's not right. You've got to do it like this," but he wasn't sitting at a computer programming things. He wasn't soldering wires together. That's not what his genius was. He had other people who were doing that. His role in all of that was kind of as the choir master. But that really is the role of, oftentimes, the founder and the CEO of the companies, but really it's about groups of people. I quote Paul Graham in the book. Paul Graham is a famous investor in the United States. And one of the things that he looks for when he invests in businesses and startups is a co- founder. This is a criteria, and he's invested in Airbnb and many other successful brands. And co- founder is the number one thing on his list.

Or my book. And I think about that a lot. I mean, I love the title of the book and the show of course, but it really is about how groups of people build something. Oftentimes I will interview co- founders, but sometimes I just interview one founder and it's a single narrative. And in the book, I really try and tell the stories from multiple perspectives and dimensions because some of the most sustainable and important and resilient companies have multiple people behind them. I can't think of a single example of one person having a light bulb moment and saying " Eureka! I know exactly what to do." And then going and starting this thing on their own. I mean, for every Steve Jobs, there's a Steve Wozniak, and there's a Johnny Ive who comes up with... We venerate Steve Jobs, but he didn't actually invent anything. His genius was as a marketer. And also as kind of a perfectionist, he could look at a product and he could say, " No, that's not right. You've got to do it like this," but he wasn't sitting at a computer programming things. He wasn't soldering wires together. That's not what his genius was. He had other people who were doing that. His role in all of that was kind of as the choir master. But that really is the role of, oftentimes, the founder and the CEO of the companies, but really it's about groups of people. I quote Paul Graham in the book. Paul Graham is a famous investor in the United States. And one of the things that he looks for when he invests in businesses and startups is a co- founder. This is a criteria, and he's invested in Airbnb and many other successful brands. And co- founder is the number one thing on his list.

Wow. So how do you find the right person? If you've got a great idea, how do you find the right person? Or is it more that a few people have the same great idea?

Wow. So how do you find the right person? If you've got a great idea, how do you find the right person? Or is it more that a few people have the same great idea?

Yeah. This is the million dollar question. Who is the person that you're going to start a business with and are they the right person? And I've interviewed founders who broke with their co- founder, who had falling outs. And I've interviewed co- founders who had some rocky moments, who really had to work through tension. We did the story of Allbirds, which is a Kiwi founder, Tim Brown, who founded it in the Bay area, he was on the New Zealand national soccer team. I'm sure you know a little bit about his story. It's a great brand. He and his co- founder Joey Zwillinger, they met through their wives and they just clicked, but they've had tension over time and they've talked about it and they've actually had coaches come and work with them. It really comes down to personality. I have found time and again that the best combination of co- founders is where one of them is more charismatic and extroverted and outgoing, and the other is more sort of inward focused and introverted and prefers to be in the background and behind the scenes. That kind of balance can really create magic. And so when people ask me, " How do I find a co- founder? Who do I look for?" There's no holy grail list that you just look at, check off and know that you're going to make the right decision. It's always going to be a bit of a risk, but ultimately I think you really want to look for, and this is intuitive, you want to look for somebody who brings skills and attributes that you don't have.

Yeah. This is the million dollar question. Who is the person that you're going to start a business with and are they the right person? And I've interviewed founders who broke with their co- founder, who had falling outs. And I've interviewed co- founders who had some rocky moments, who really had to work through tension. We did the story of Allbirds, which is a Kiwi founder, Tim Brown, who founded it in the Bay area, he was on the New Zealand national soccer team. I'm sure you know a little bit about his story. It's a great brand. He and his co- founder Joey Zwillinger, they met through their wives and they just clicked, but they've had tension over time and they've talked about it and they've actually had coaches come and work with them. It really comes down to personality. I have found time and again that the best combination of co- founders is where one of them is more charismatic and extroverted and outgoing, and the other is more sort of inward focused and introverted and prefers to be in the background and behind the scenes. That kind of balance can really create magic. And so when people ask me, " How do I find a co- founder? Who do I look for?" There's no holy grail list that you just look at, check off and know that you're going to make the right decision. It's always going to be a bit of a risk, but ultimately I think you really want to look for, and this is intuitive, you want to look for somebody who brings skills and attributes that you don't have.

And I suppose the two Steves, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak are the greatest example of those sorts of people because they are chalk and cheese.

And I suppose the two Steves, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak are the greatest example of those sorts of people because they are chalk and cheese.

Totally, right. I mean, Steve Wozniak is like this weirdo in the basement and Steve Jobs is this charismatic guy going out into the world.

Totally, right. I mean, Steve Wozniak is like this weirdo in the basement and Steve Jobs is this charismatic guy going out into the world.

I once had dinner with Steve Wozniak at a function, there was 10 of us and I happened to be sitting next to him. It was one of the most memorable nights I've ever had in my life. For a guy who I thought is, this guy's going to be really weird, was phenomenally entertaining. I think he gets a bad rep, to be honest.

I once had dinner with Steve Wozniak at a function, there was 10 of us and I happened to be sitting next to him. It was one of the most memorable nights I've ever had in my life. For a guy who I thought is, this guy's going to be really weird, was phenomenally entertaining. I think he gets a bad rep, to be honest.

Yeah. I know. I totally... Bet he was. I bet he was, yeah.

Yeah. I know. I totally... Bet he was. I bet he was, yeah.

You also talk about the idea of bootstrapping and I love that idea. Fear and Greed, we are bootstrapping, but it can be pretty hairy. Explain that concept.

You also talk about the idea of bootstrapping and I love that idea. Fear and Greed, we are bootstrapping, but it can be pretty hairy. Explain that concept.

Yeah. Look, it depends on what you want to build. If you are building a consumer packaged goods product that requires a huge capital outlay to manufacture in a Chinese factory in quantities of hundreds of thousands of millions, it's sort of hard to bootstrap unless you're related somehow to the family behind.... Name the brand, right?

Yeah. Look, it depends on what you want to build. If you are building a consumer packaged goods product that requires a huge capital outlay to manufacture in a Chinese factory in quantities of hundreds of thousands of millions, it's sort of hard to bootstrap unless you're related somehow to the family behind.... Name the brand, right?

Yeah. There's a cardboard here in Australia, the Pratt family are very well known cardboard kings. So maybe you could do it then, maybe.

Yeah. There's a cardboard here in Australia, the Pratt family are very well known cardboard kings. So maybe you could do it then, maybe.

Exactly. If you're a member of the Pratt family, you're good to go. But most of us aren't. We don't have access to hundreds of millions of dollars. The reality is there are a lot of really interesting brands that were built up in a small way and that essentially enabled the founder to retain a 100% of the ownership. The classic example is Spankx' Sara Blakely. She was a salesperson selling fax machines and saved all of her money to build a prototype for her undergarments. Well, they were relatively inexpensive to make, so she could do a run of 5, 000 of them, and with that, she was able to get Neiman Marcus, an American department store, to carry them. She sent them to Oprah and by luck, Oprah opened it, tried them on, loved them and then talked about them on her show. I mean, Oprah Winfrey is the most famous media star in America. That alone, it was able to kind of launch her business and really, in the case of Sara Blakely, she had investors pounding on her door begging to get in there. But the cashflow enabled her to sustain the business and grow the business very quickly. So it can happen. It's not easy. I find that it can happen with, with products and services that are relatively manageable to produce. One of my favorite examples is 1- 800- GOT- JUNK, which I think is also in Australia. It's a moving company, started by a Canadian guy named Brian Scudamore. He bought a truck, a flatbed truck in Vancouver for $ 800. And after four jobs, he paid his truck back. After eight jobs, he had money to buy a second truck and hire a friend. After 15 jobs, he could buy a third truck. I mean, this amazing business idea. And all he did was paint 1- 800- GOT- JUNK. He bought that 800 number, which was available for very little, somebody didn't even know that it spelled 1- 800- GOT- JUNK. They just had the number. He begged them for the number, painted it on the side of his trucks in Vancouver. And today it's a huge business.

Exactly. If you're a member of the Pratt family, you're good to go. But most of us aren't. We don't have access to hundreds of millions of dollars. The reality is there are a lot of really interesting brands that were built up in a small way and that essentially enabled the founder to retain a 100% of the ownership. The classic example is Spankx' Sara Blakely. She was a salesperson selling fax machines and saved all of her money to build a prototype for her undergarments. Well, they were relatively inexpensive to make, so she could do a run of 5, 000 of them, and with that, she was able to get Neiman Marcus, an American department store, to carry them. She sent them to Oprah and by luck, Oprah opened it, tried them on, loved them and then talked about them on her show. I mean, Oprah Winfrey is the most famous media star in America. That alone, it was able to kind of launch her business and really, in the case of Sara Blakely, she had investors pounding on her door begging to get in there. But the cashflow enabled her to sustain the business and grow the business very quickly. So it can happen. It's not easy. I find that it can happen with, with products and services that are relatively manageable to produce. One of my favorite examples is 1- 800- GOT- JUNK, which I think is also in Australia. It's a moving company, started by a Canadian guy named Brian Scudamore. He bought a truck, a flatbed truck in Vancouver for $ 800. And after four jobs, he paid his truck back. After eight jobs, he had money to buy a second truck and hire a friend. After 15 jobs, he could buy a third truck. I mean, this amazing business idea. And all he did was paint 1- 800- GOT- JUNK. He bought that 800 number, which was available for very little, somebody didn't even know that it spelled 1- 800- GOT- JUNK. They just had the number. He begged them for the number, painted it on the side of his trucks in Vancouver. And today it's a huge business.

Incredible. As I'm talking to you, you are always telling stories about companies and that's how you think about it, and I think it's a great way to deliver the message of business. You also, in your book, talk about knowing the why is often the bridge between the founding and funding, which I think relates to the storytelling bit.

Incredible. As I'm talking to you, you are always telling stories about companies and that's how you think about it, and I think it's a great way to deliver the message of business. You also, in your book, talk about knowing the why is often the bridge between the founding and funding, which I think relates to the storytelling bit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What did you mean by that?

What did you mean by that?

I mean, it's what I sort of said earlier, which is every business is a story. And it doesn't have to be a huge billion dollar unicorn like Canva or Atlassian. It can be somebody who installs HVACs. There's a story... Or the corner store, or the kabob shop. Behind every business there's a story. There's somebody who came to Australia to open up something, to support their family, or somebody who decided to deliver a better quality HVAC service in their neighborhood because the existing one sucked. And so every business is a story. I think that when you understand the story, it becomes much, much easier to gather people around you who believe in the mission that you are trying to accomplish, whether it's providing a better service or trying to introduce a product that somehow improves people's lives in some ways or makes it easier. Every business or product out there essentially began as a problem that somebody was trying to solve or improve on. So when you have the story, it becomes much, much easier to create a powerful connection between the people who work with you, between you and the people who've invested in your business, and ultimately your customers. If your customers understand why you do what you do and why the product you offer is meaningful, the connection to what you do is much stronger. I've found that businesses that... And I'm not talking about a BS story, I'm not talking about a PR story. I'm talking about a real story. Why is it that you do what you do? What is the idea behind it? What is it that you want people to walk away from it thinking? I once interviewed Jimmy Fallon. You know Jimmy Fallon? He's a late night chat show.

I mean, it's what I sort of said earlier, which is every business is a story. And it doesn't have to be a huge billion dollar unicorn like Canva or Atlassian. It can be somebody who installs HVACs. There's a story... Or the corner store, or the kabob shop. Behind every business there's a story. There's somebody who came to Australia to open up something, to support their family, or somebody who decided to deliver a better quality HVAC service in their neighborhood because the existing one sucked. And so every business is a story. I think that when you understand the story, it becomes much, much easier to gather people around you who believe in the mission that you are trying to accomplish, whether it's providing a better service or trying to introduce a product that somehow improves people's lives in some ways or makes it easier. Every business or product out there essentially began as a problem that somebody was trying to solve or improve on. So when you have the story, it becomes much, much easier to create a powerful connection between the people who work with you, between you and the people who've invested in your business, and ultimately your customers. If your customers understand why you do what you do and why the product you offer is meaningful, the connection to what you do is much stronger. I've found that businesses that... And I'm not talking about a BS story, I'm not talking about a PR story. I'm talking about a real story. Why is it that you do what you do? What is the idea behind it? What is it that you want people to walk away from it thinking? I once interviewed Jimmy Fallon. You know Jimmy Fallon? He's a late night chat show.

Yeah. Everyone knows Jimmy Fallon. Yep.

Yeah. Everyone knows Jimmy Fallon. Yep.

I got a chance to be on his show a few times. He's an amazing person. Once I interviewed him in LA for an event that he did. He asked me to interview him. And I said, " What do you want people to walk away from at the end of the night?" Because it's a hard time in the US right now. We've got... It's a difficult moment. The political situation in the US is really depressing and there's a lot of division. I mean, it's really tough time. And I said to him, " What do you want people to walk away from, from your show?" He said, " I want people... People are just stressed out and there's a lot of anxiety. I want people to just have to... Turn my show on at 11: 30 at night and just laugh and smile and escape, and then go to sleep." And I just thought, what a great purpose, what a great mission. And everybody who works for him, because that is a business, everybody who works on his show believes in that mission. And they're so kind, and they're so motivated and so committed to what he does because he has that story built into that brand.

I got a chance to be on his show a few times. He's an amazing person. Once I interviewed him in LA for an event that he did. He asked me to interview him. And I said, " What do you want people to walk away from at the end of the night?" Because it's a hard time in the US right now. We've got... It's a difficult moment. The political situation in the US is really depressing and there's a lot of division. I mean, it's really tough time. And I said to him, " What do you want people to walk away from, from your show?" He said, " I want people... People are just stressed out and there's a lot of anxiety. I want people to just have to... Turn my show on at 11: 30 at night and just laugh and smile and escape, and then go to sleep." And I just thought, what a great purpose, what a great mission. And everybody who works for him, because that is a business, everybody who works on his show believes in that mission. And they're so kind, and they're so motivated and so committed to what he does because he has that story built into that brand.

I mean, one of your chapters is actually called, I think, It Can't Be All About Money. I suppose that's exactly what you're saying. You have to have a mission. You have to have a reason.

I mean, one of your chapters is actually called, I think, It Can't Be All About Money. I suppose that's exactly what you're saying. You have to have a mission. You have to have a reason.

Right. And look, I'm not denigrating money. If anybody watching wants to send me money, I'd happily take it.

Right. And look, I'm not denigrating money. If anybody watching wants to send me money, I'd happily take it.

No, I'm the same. Very happy to take anything.

No, I'm the same. Very happy to take anything.

Right. You take it too Sean, right?

Right. You take it too Sean, right?

Yeah. (crosstalk) .

Yeah. (crosstalk) .

And of course, many of the brands and pretty much all the companies that have been on the show, their founders are fabulously wealthy. I don't think of wealth as a measure of success. (crosstalk) I know that's a cliche and we hear that. But hear me out for a second. I mean, I actually think that the measure of success for any entrepreneur is building something sustainable, building something that can sustain your life. And maybe, if you're lucky, the lives of another one or two or three people who you employ. I mean, it's a pretty great outcome. My dad was a small businessman. He had a small jewelry store he started at 41 years old. He's retired now and he didn't make a pile of cash, but he made enough money to support three kids, four kids eventually, and seven or eight people who worked for him. That's pretty great. And that, to me-

And of course, many of the brands and pretty much all the companies that have been on the show, their founders are fabulously wealthy. I don't think of wealth as a measure of success. (crosstalk) I know that's a cliche and we hear that. But hear me out for a second. I mean, I actually think that the measure of success for any entrepreneur is building something sustainable, building something that can sustain your life. And maybe, if you're lucky, the lives of another one or two or three people who you employ. I mean, it's a pretty great outcome. My dad was a small businessman. He had a small jewelry store he started at 41 years old. He's retired now and he didn't make a pile of cash, but he made enough money to support three kids, four kids eventually, and seven or eight people who worked for him. That's pretty great. And that, to me-

That's success.

That's success.

That's success.

That's success.

Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Now, look, you mentioned Canva earlier on. Melanie Perkins is the 32 year old Australian co- founder, it's an online design platform for free. How did you come across Melanie and Canva?

Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Now, look, you mentioned Canva earlier on. Melanie Perkins is the 32 year old Australian co- founder, it's an online design platform for free. How did you come across Melanie and Canva?

We really spend a lot of time researching different brands and products. And we look for a range of founders. It's not always easy for us to interview people outside of the United States, just for logistical reasons, especially now during COVID because we have a very elaborate tech setup. We actually send people a studio in a box, microphones and all this equipment, to make sure the fidelity of a recording is very strong, but we're always looking for founders all around the world. I think where I wish we could have more founders from are places like China and India, but for a variety of reasons, it's been challenging. We generally have been hearing from founders of all races and backgrounds, but generally from the English- speaking world. So Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the US, the UK, but really it's about looking for them. And Melanie came on a radar screen a couple years ago and I love her story. She came to the US just totally determined to launch this company. She had no experience and she just had this drive and this desire, this burning desire to build this thing that she really believed the world needed. And she was right.

We really spend a lot of time researching different brands and products. And we look for a range of founders. It's not always easy for us to interview people outside of the United States, just for logistical reasons, especially now during COVID because we have a very elaborate tech setup. We actually send people a studio in a box, microphones and all this equipment, to make sure the fidelity of a recording is very strong, but we're always looking for founders all around the world. I think where I wish we could have more founders from are places like China and India, but for a variety of reasons, it's been challenging. We generally have been hearing from founders of all races and backgrounds, but generally from the English- speaking world. So Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the US, the UK, but really it's about looking for them. And Melanie came on a radar screen a couple years ago and I love her story. She came to the US just totally determined to launch this company. She had no experience and she just had this drive and this desire, this burning desire to build this thing that she really believed the world needed. And she was right.

You talk about entrepreneurs' inextinguishable belief in their idea, which Melanie definitely had. Can that work against them, though?

You talk about entrepreneurs' inextinguishable belief in their idea, which Melanie definitely had. Can that work against them, though?

Oh yeah, no question about it. Especially if the problem you are solving is a problem only you have. I mean, essentially-

Oh yeah, no question about it. Especially if the problem you are solving is a problem only you have. I mean, essentially-

Yes. I know that.

Yes. I know that.

... no one's going to buy that product. But really you have to come up with an idea that solves a problem that not only you have, but presumably that lots of other people have. And actually, the reason why that's important is because there will be times when you're launching a business or even putting an idea out into the world that's disruptive where you will have people doubting. It comes with the territory. It is practically an article of faith that will happen. People will say, " It sucks. It's not going to work." Well, whatever they might say. And in order to actually plow through that and deal with that, you really have to believe that this product or service you're putting out into the world is something the world actually needs, really needs and really does solve a problem for a lot of people. I'll give you an example. One of my favorite, it's a story I tell in the book, one of my favorite entrepreneurs ever is an American entrepreneur named Tristan Walker. He's an African American guy who had a problem because every time he shaved, he would get razor bumps. Well, men who have very, very curly hair have this problem, because if you use a traditional Gillette razor, or whatever five- blade razor you can buy at the drug store, it shaves under your skin. And then the hair, if you've got curly hair grows right back into your skin, and it creates painful, painful rash and scarring that many Black and Brown men around the world have dealt with forever. And in the US, there are really were no good products for Brown and Black men and men with curly hair to avoid this. And so he created a razor, a double- edged single blade called the bevel razor. And he went to investors and he said, " Hey, I've got this product. It's going to solve a problem for a lot of men like me." And investors who are mostly White men were like, " Ah, I don't see a market here. I don't see where this is going to go." But that didn't deter him because he knew that not only did he have this problem, but that millions of Black and Brown men and women in America had this same problem. And so it didn't matter if he heard no, because he knew that if he couldn't bring this out into the war old, nobody could. And it was as simple as that. I mean, every single day, he plowed through because he knew this was a problem that a lot of people had and that he had to solve it. And he did, he was right. It's today's owned by Proctor and Gamble. The product is available at every Walmart and Target and Walgreens all over the United States, and it's a hugely successful product.

... no one's going to buy that product. But really you have to come up with an idea that solves a problem that not only you have, but presumably that lots of other people have. And actually, the reason why that's important is because there will be times when you're launching a business or even putting an idea out into the world that's disruptive where you will have people doubting. It comes with the territory. It is practically an article of faith that will happen. People will say, " It sucks. It's not going to work." Well, whatever they might say. And in order to actually plow through that and deal with that, you really have to believe that this product or service you're putting out into the world is something the world actually needs, really needs and really does solve a problem for a lot of people. I'll give you an example. One of my favorite, it's a story I tell in the book, one of my favorite entrepreneurs ever is an American entrepreneur named Tristan Walker. He's an African American guy who had a problem because every time he shaved, he would get razor bumps. Well, men who have very, very curly hair have this problem, because if you use a traditional Gillette razor, or whatever five- blade razor you can buy at the drug store, it shaves under your skin. And then the hair, if you've got curly hair grows right back into your skin, and it creates painful, painful rash and scarring that many Black and Brown men around the world have dealt with forever. And in the US, there are really were no good products for Brown and Black men and men with curly hair to avoid this. And so he created a razor, a double- edged single blade called the bevel razor. And he went to investors and he said, " Hey, I've got this product. It's going to solve a problem for a lot of men like me." And investors who are mostly White men were like, " Ah, I don't see a market here. I don't see where this is going to go." But that didn't deter him because he knew that not only did he have this problem, but that millions of Black and Brown men and women in America had this same problem. And so it didn't matter if he heard no, because he knew that if he couldn't bring this out into the war old, nobody could. And it was as simple as that. I mean, every single day, he plowed through because he knew this was a problem that a lot of people had and that he had to solve it. And he did, he was right. It's today's owned by Proctor and Gamble. The product is available at every Walmart and Target and Walgreens all over the United States, and it's a hugely successful product.

Great story. Great story. Tell me, you talk about building a culture as well and not a cult. They can get a bit gray, those areas, culture and cult.

Great story. Great story. Tell me, you talk about building a culture as well and not a cult. They can get a bit gray, those areas, culture and cult.

I mean, when you are building a business, you want to think about one important question, among many, but you really want to think about this question, which is, " Is the business about me and can it survive without me?" And your answer should be " No, it's not about me. And yes, it can survive without me." Because if you're building a business that depends only on you, you will quickly realize you cannot scale yourself. And the value of your business will be diminished. If it the brand is built around you as a person. I mean, unless you're building a media company. I mean, Oprah can't be Oprah without Oprah, right? But there are a lot of ancillary products out there. There's a magazine and there's cooking lines and there's a production company, and there's all kinds of things that don't need Oprah. But when you're building a brand that is about a product or service, you really want to think out the brand or the product or the service as the star and not you as the star. The example I use in the book is a brand called American Apparel, which I think was in Australia at one point. A great brand, made excellent apparel in Los Angeles, which is unusual in this day and age. And the brand went belly up because the founder made the brand about himself. That only he could shepherd this product through and only he could run it. That ultimately became its downfall, which I describe in the book.

I mean, when you are building a business, you want to think about one important question, among many, but you really want to think about this question, which is, " Is the business about me and can it survive without me?" And your answer should be " No, it's not about me. And yes, it can survive without me." Because if you're building a business that depends only on you, you will quickly realize you cannot scale yourself. And the value of your business will be diminished. If it the brand is built around you as a person. I mean, unless you're building a media company. I mean, Oprah can't be Oprah without Oprah, right? But there are a lot of ancillary products out there. There's a magazine and there's cooking lines and there's a production company, and there's all kinds of things that don't need Oprah. But when you're building a brand that is about a product or service, you really want to think out the brand or the product or the service as the star and not you as the star. The example I use in the book is a brand called American Apparel, which I think was in Australia at one point. A great brand, made excellent apparel in Los Angeles, which is unusual in this day and age. And the brand went belly up because the founder made the brand about himself. That only he could shepherd this product through and only he could run it. That ultimately became its downfall, which I describe in the book.

We're coming to end of the podcast where we have to start talking about selling. We've been talking about creating and building, but when does an entrepreneur, or when should an entrepreneur, sell a business? Do they generally make the right choice on that?

We're coming to end of the podcast where we have to start talking about selling. We've been talking about creating and building, but when does an entrepreneur, or when should an entrepreneur, sell a business? Do they generally make the right choice on that?

Yeah. It's a very hard question to answer because it's such a personal question. There are some entrepreneurs who grew up with nothing, who grew up impoverished. And for then, the idea of cashing out with 20, 30, 50, a 1000 million dollars is life changing generational wealth, especially for People of Color in the United States. If you're offered a hundred million and you know that for three or four or five or 10 generations, it's going to be transformational, it's very hard to say no. I think that it really depends on what ultimately your goals are. I think that most founders that I've interviewed go into their business really wanting to create 100- year companies. And many of them will say that to you. I think if you ask Melanie of Canva, Melanie Perkins, she'll say, " I want this to be a 100- year business. I know Allbirds, those guys say the same thing. But ultimately is a personal decision. Where are you in life? What circumstances are you facing? And what is it that you want to do next? I will caution anybody who does find themselves in that situation that... I've had conversations with founders who find themselves in a position where they are very rich and very sad, because they don't have anywhere to go. They don't have a team. They don't have the camaraderie of the office. They don't have the hustle and bustle. Nobody's calling them up anymore except to ask them for money or for philanthropic reasons. It's lonely and it can get really boring. I actually just had a conversation with one of the founders who was on my show about this very issue. And this founder is very rich and going through a difficult time. So it's a double- edged sword and it's a very personal decision.

Yeah. It's a very hard question to answer because it's such a personal question. There are some entrepreneurs who grew up with nothing, who grew up impoverished. And for then, the idea of cashing out with 20, 30, 50, a 1000 million dollars is life changing generational wealth, especially for People of Color in the United States. If you're offered a hundred million and you know that for three or four or five or 10 generations, it's going to be transformational, it's very hard to say no. I think that it really depends on what ultimately your goals are. I think that most founders that I've interviewed go into their business really wanting to create 100- year companies. And many of them will say that to you. I think if you ask Melanie of Canva, Melanie Perkins, she'll say, " I want this to be a 100- year business. I know Allbirds, those guys say the same thing. But ultimately is a personal decision. Where are you in life? What circumstances are you facing? And what is it that you want to do next? I will caution anybody who does find themselves in that situation that... I've had conversations with founders who find themselves in a position where they are very rich and very sad, because they don't have anywhere to go. They don't have a team. They don't have the camaraderie of the office. They don't have the hustle and bustle. Nobody's calling them up anymore except to ask them for money or for philanthropic reasons. It's lonely and it can get really boring. I actually just had a conversation with one of the founders who was on my show about this very issue. And this founder is very rich and going through a difficult time. So it's a double- edged sword and it's a very personal decision.

Finally, do you believe in luck, Guy?

Finally, do you believe in luck, Guy?

I'm a huge to believe her in luck. I met my wife at a barbecue 20 years ago that neither of us was supposed to be at. I didn't even talk to her there. I actually saw her there. Asked my friend whose barbecue it was, who she was. He went through his whole list of people until he landed on her. And he said, " Oh yeah, she's somebody I kind of know from college." And he contacted this woman who's now my wife and brought her to a party the next weekend. That was 20 years ago. That was luck.

I'm a huge to believe her in luck. I met my wife at a barbecue 20 years ago that neither of us was supposed to be at. I didn't even talk to her there. I actually saw her there. Asked my friend whose barbecue it was, who she was. He went through his whole list of people until he landed on her. And he said, " Oh yeah, she's somebody I kind of know from college." And he contacted this woman who's now my wife and brought her to a party the next weekend. That was 20 years ago. That was luck.

Guy Raz, thank you for speaking to Fear and Greed this morning.

Guy Raz, thank you for speaking to Fear and Greed this morning.

Sean, thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

Sean, thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

That was Guy Raz, host of the hugely successful podcast How I Built This. His book, How I Built This, The Unexpected Paths to Success From the World's Most Inspiring Entrepreneurs is available now. Trust me, you don't need to be an entrepreneur to enjoy this book. Guy is a brilliant storyteller, and How I Built This is a must read.

That was Guy Raz, host of the hugely successful podcast How I Built This. His book, How I Built This, The Unexpected Paths to Success From the World's Most Inspiring Entrepreneurs is available now. Trust me, you don't need to be an entrepreneur to enjoy this book. Guy is a brilliant storyteller, and How I Built This is a must read.