Welcome to Fear and Greed Sunday feature. I'm Michael Thompson. This week we talked about a move by Westpac that aims to boost its small business portfolio see Westpac is growing quickly in the SME space, but it is still behind NAB and Commonwealth Bank. It's now though, offering business customers a year's worth of basic legal services, legal documents, business registration services, that kind of thing. How because of a ten million dollar investment in Ossie's startup law Path, I wouldn't you know it? Back in twenty twenty one, we spoke with Dominic Woolrich, the co founder and CEO of law Path, about the business, about where it came from, where it was going, and how it was using technology to help Australian businesses manage the legal side of well doing business. It is a great chat from February of twenty twenty one. I hope you enjoy it.

Welcome to Fear and Greed Sunday feature. I'm Michael Thompson. This week we talked about a move by Westpac that aims to boost its small business portfolio see Westpac is growing quickly in the SME space, but it is still behind NAB and Commonwealth Bank. It's now though, offering business customers a year's worth of basic legal services, legal documents, business registration services, that kind of thing. How because of a ten million dollar investment in Ossie's startup law Path, I wouldn't you know it? Back in twenty twenty one, we spoke with Dominic Woolrich, the co founder and CEO of law Path, about the business, about where it came from, where it was going, and how it was using technology to help Australian businesses manage the legal side of well doing business. It is a great chat from February of twenty twenty one. I hope you enjoy it.

The law.

The law.

Some people love it. Most of us don't really understand it, but we do know we need it for society and business to function. From the outside looking in, the law can appear to be imposing and confusing. It's pretty intimidating. It can be also very very expensive. Today on Fear and Greed, we wanted to talk with someone who can help our audience to navigate the legal profession, to get the advice and assistance they may need. Dominic Woolridge is a co founder and chief executive officer of law Path. Dom Welcome to Fear and Greed.

Some people love it. Most of us don't really understand it, but we do know we need it for society and business to function. From the outside looking in, the law can appear to be imposing and confusing. It's pretty intimidating. It can be also very very expensive. Today on Fear and Greed, we wanted to talk with someone who can help our audience to navigate the legal profession, to get the advice and assistance they may need. Dominic Woolridge is a co founder and chief executive officer of law Path. Dom Welcome to Fear and Greed.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for having me.

Sean Presley, tell me a little bit about yourself and law Path. How it came to being.

Sean Presley, tell me a little bit about yourself and law Path. How it came to being.

Yeah, sure, well, I actually call myself for a covering lawyer. I started in the traditional legal system, working for one of the big corporate firms here in Sydney. I spent a probably about four or five years there, and whilst I was there, actually started my own little side hustle which turned into a reasonable size startup, and I kind of caught the startup bug and I thought, how can I combine startups? How can I combine law together? And then law Path came about. So you know, as you mentioned in your intro, the law is really scary for most small businesses, especially it's expensive, you don't really know what you're getting into. Lawyers have a bit of a sketchy reputation, and so we thought, how can we change that and we saw what was happening in the accounting industry. Actually, these online accounting platforms came through about ten years ago, like zero and into It and Reckon and totally changed the accounting landscape for businesses. And we thought, well, there's a huge gap and laws pretty similar to accounting, so how can we replicate that, and so we started law Paths, so law pass and an online legal platform for businesses. It's a subscription platform, so businesses play a monthly or an annual fee and through that they can access tools and services to run their business. So that might be the soft where to help them start a business, to manage their directors, their shareholders, it might be automated legal documents. And then we also have a network of lawyers on our platform as well, so if you do want to talk to a lawyer, you can just jump on there and speak to them and get the advice you need.

Yeah, sure, well, I actually call myself for a covering lawyer. I started in the traditional legal system, working for one of the big corporate firms here in Sydney. I spent a probably about four or five years there, and whilst I was there, actually started my own little side hustle which turned into a reasonable size startup, and I kind of caught the startup bug and I thought, how can I combine startups? How can I combine law together? And then law Path came about. So you know, as you mentioned in your intro, the law is really scary for most small businesses, especially it's expensive, you don't really know what you're getting into. Lawyers have a bit of a sketchy reputation, and so we thought, how can we change that and we saw what was happening in the accounting industry. Actually, these online accounting platforms came through about ten years ago, like zero and into It and Reckon and totally changed the accounting landscape for businesses. And we thought, well, there's a huge gap and laws pretty similar to accounting, so how can we replicate that, and so we started law Paths, so law pass and an online legal platform for businesses. It's a subscription platform, so businesses play a monthly or an annual fee and through that they can access tools and services to run their business. So that might be the soft where to help them start a business, to manage their directors, their shareholders, it might be automated legal documents. And then we also have a network of lawyers on our platform as well, so if you do want to talk to a lawyer, you can just jump on there and speak to them and get the advice you need.

Okay, So just breaking that down a little bit, and let's use real life fear and greed example. So there's shareholders at fear and Greed, so we need a shareholder agreement terms and conditions. Terms and conditions are really difficult to actually get right. So it's those sorts of things that we're talking about.

Okay, So just breaking that down a little bit, and let's use real life fear and greed example. So there's shareholders at fear and Greed, so we need a shareholder agreement terms and conditions. Terms and conditions are really difficult to actually get right. So it's those sorts of things that we're talking about.

Yeah, exactly right. So when you're starting starting up in probably in your first kind of two to five years of business, you know, you can't be spending tens of thousands or hundreds of thousand dollars on lawyers. You really need easy, kind of on demand solutions. So let's just take a shareholders agreement. Every business should should have a shareholders agreement. If you go and chat to a lawyer, you'll probably be charged, you know, three four five thousand dollars for a basic shareholders agreement. You can jump on the Laws platform using our automation technology, you can enter in details about your business and then it will give you your shareholders agreement. We also go a step further and we have these signatures on there so you can send it out to all your different shareholders and get them to sign it. But the thing I like the best about the system is we use data from our past clients to actually suggest answers for you, because if you're completing one of these documents, might be the first time you've ever done it, and you might just not know the answers, or you might just not know what is market so we actually use data from all of our previous clients. We aggregate that data and we say, okay, well your type of business in your state or your suburb, they enter details like this, we recommend you.

Yeah, exactly right. So when you're starting starting up in probably in your first kind of two to five years of business, you know, you can't be spending tens of thousands or hundreds of thousand dollars on lawyers. You really need easy, kind of on demand solutions. So let's just take a shareholders agreement. Every business should should have a shareholders agreement. If you go and chat to a lawyer, you'll probably be charged, you know, three four five thousand dollars for a basic shareholders agreement. You can jump on the Laws platform using our automation technology, you can enter in details about your business and then it will give you your shareholders agreement. We also go a step further and we have these signatures on there so you can send it out to all your different shareholders and get them to sign it. But the thing I like the best about the system is we use data from our past clients to actually suggest answers for you, because if you're completing one of these documents, might be the first time you've ever done it, and you might just not know the answers, or you might just not know what is market so we actually use data from all of our previous clients. We aggregate that data and we say, okay, well your type of business in your state or your suburb, they enter details like this, we recommend you.

Do it that way.

Do it that way.

So we kind of call it the rogo lawyer. I know that sounds pretty scary, but we're kind of moving in that direction whereby kind of basic, commoditized legal services can be done through a platform like ours, and then when it gets really complicated. We're not saying don't go to a lawyer. We're just saying the beginning of the basic stuff, use us, and then when it gets complicated, allow us connect you to the lawyer for the complicated stuff.

So we kind of call it the rogo lawyer. I know that sounds pretty scary, but we're kind of moving in that direction whereby kind of basic, commoditized legal services can be done through a platform like ours, and then when it gets really complicated. We're not saying don't go to a lawyer. We're just saying the beginning of the basic stuff, use us, and then when it gets complicated, allow us connect you to the lawyer for the complicated stuff.

Okay, so who's using law path What is the sweet spot?

Okay, so who's using law path What is the sweet spot?

Yeah? Sure. So what we find is businesses between zero and five years old, typically under a million dollars in revenue, zero to twenty employees, and most of our businesses classify themselves as online businesses or e commerce businesses. You know, we have one hundred and eighty thousand users on the platform. Now, our first real early adopters were startups, I think because they were willing to take a little bit of a risk and they were willing to look for something different. And also the reality is that they're doing their banking online, they're doing their insurance online, they're doing their accounting online. Why shouldn't they be doing their legal online as well. It just makes sense that's how they work. So they're the type of people.

Yeah? Sure. So what we find is businesses between zero and five years old, typically under a million dollars in revenue, zero to twenty employees, and most of our businesses classify themselves as online businesses or e commerce businesses. You know, we have one hundred and eighty thousand users on the platform. Now, our first real early adopters were startups, I think because they were willing to take a little bit of a risk and they were willing to look for something different. And also the reality is that they're doing their banking online, they're doing their insurance online, they're doing their accounting online. Why shouldn't they be doing their legal online as well. It just makes sense that's how they work. So they're the type of people.

But then there does come a point where you probably do need a lawyer because it's not generic, it's more specific to your organization.

But then there does come a point where you probably do need a lawyer because it's not generic, it's more specific to your organization.

Is that how it works, yeah, exactly. So what happens is there's really two sides of the law Path platform. The first side is this automation side whereby you can do things yourself. But when it gets a little bit complicated, we then have the other side of the law Path platform, which is a lawyer marketplace. So we have about one thousand lawyers on this marketplace from all around Australia and we help our clients connect up with those lawyers and then work with those lawyers on the more complicated issues.

Is that how it works, yeah, exactly. So what happens is there's really two sides of the law Path platform. The first side is this automation side whereby you can do things yourself. But when it gets a little bit complicated, we then have the other side of the law Path platform, which is a lawyer marketplace. So we have about one thousand lawyers on this marketplace from all around Australia and we help our clients connect up with those lawyers and then work with those lawyers on the more complicated issues.

Okay, so that lawyer marketplace is an interesting concept. Are they rated?

Okay, so that lawyer marketplace is an interesting concept. Are they rated?

Yeah, they are, and that was very controversial at the beginning, so they rate it out of five stars, just like an Uber driver. And you know, lawyers were pretty angry about that when we first started rating them, but at the end of the day, clients kind of expect to see reviews and ratings online, and what we actually found was that if you have over fifteen five star reviews on the law path platform, you're six times more likely to be hired. So I think once lawyers realized that the rating and review system was actually helped them win more clients, they came around to it. And so now every client that hires a lawyer through law Path raps their lawyer.

Yeah, they are, and that was very controversial at the beginning, so they rate it out of five stars, just like an Uber driver. And you know, lawyers were pretty angry about that when we first started rating them, but at the end of the day, clients kind of expect to see reviews and ratings online, and what we actually found was that if you have over fifteen five star reviews on the law path platform, you're six times more likely to be hired. So I think once lawyers realized that the rating and review system was actually helped them win more clients, they came around to it. And so now every client that hires a lawyer through law Path raps their lawyer.

Dom stay with me, will be back in a moment. My guess this morning is co founder and set law Path Dom Woolridge. So what has the profession's view been of law Path? What's the law think of law Path?

Dom stay with me, will be back in a moment. My guess this morning is co founder and set law Path Dom Woolridge. So what has the profession's view been of law Path? What's the law think of law Path?

Yeah? Sure, so it's changed over the years. So we launched in twenty fourteen, so we're coming up on six years old. Now. At the beginning, there was a lot of pushback. I think that lawyers saw law Paths coming for their jobs and technology replacing lawyers. And to be honest, when we first started out, you know, part of our mission was how do we replace lawyers? But throughout the years, lawyers and law path have changed their tune a little bit. I think the big thing is that the industry is changing a lot, and the way that lawyers work is changing a lot, and law Path wants to be there to take away the commoditize basic legal work and leave the real legal work to the lawyers, which is why they you know, why they went to university. So at first we got a lot of pushback. Over the last few years though, we've been getting really great reception. We now have about twenty law firms signing up on our platform a week. Obviously we can't invite them all on just because of sublime demand issues, but I think that shows that they're seeing that the industry's changing and they want to jump onto these online platforms.

Yeah? Sure, so it's changed over the years. So we launched in twenty fourteen, so we're coming up on six years old. Now. At the beginning, there was a lot of pushback. I think that lawyers saw law Paths coming for their jobs and technology replacing lawyers. And to be honest, when we first started out, you know, part of our mission was how do we replace lawyers? But throughout the years, lawyers and law path have changed their tune a little bit. I think the big thing is that the industry is changing a lot, and the way that lawyers work is changing a lot, and law Path wants to be there to take away the commoditize basic legal work and leave the real legal work to the lawyers, which is why they you know, why they went to university. So at first we got a lot of pushback. Over the last few years though, we've been getting really great reception. We now have about twenty law firms signing up on our platform a week. Obviously we can't invite them all on just because of sublime demand issues, but I think that shows that they're seeing that the industry's changing and they want to jump onto these online platforms.

And what about your customers that they must be happy with the fact that it is just less intimidating at the end of the day.

And what about your customers that they must be happy with the fact that it is just less intimidating at the end of the day.

Yeah, exactly. One of the big big bit of feedback we got early on was that yes, laws expensive, yes laws complicated, but the big one was that it was just really scary to go and see a lawyer, especially for the first time. You didn't know whether they were going to charge you straight away, you didn't know how much it was going to be you didn't understand the process. So I think removing all of those obstacles by putting it on online on demand twenty four to seven from any device really helped a lot of customers reach out early and seek legal information. One of the big, the big kind of shifts that I'm trying to make in the legal industry is it's always been very reactive. So when something goes wrong, you go and see a lawyer, or you wait till the last minute. And how can we flip that so that the law is proactive. How do we make it so accessible and so easy to access the information that the customers can come to us early. And this kind of leads on to this concept I was talking about before, around suggesting answers for the clients and proactively helping them and saying, well, look, you're a fintech startup based in Sydney, based on your industry, here are all the other actions that fintech startups made in Sydney, and so helping them, preparing a bit of a roadmap for them, and so it's less intimidating and they have a little bit more transparency over what's going to happen.

Yeah, exactly. One of the big big bit of feedback we got early on was that yes, laws expensive, yes laws complicated, but the big one was that it was just really scary to go and see a lawyer, especially for the first time. You didn't know whether they were going to charge you straight away, you didn't know how much it was going to be you didn't understand the process. So I think removing all of those obstacles by putting it on online on demand twenty four to seven from any device really helped a lot of customers reach out early and seek legal information. One of the big, the big kind of shifts that I'm trying to make in the legal industry is it's always been very reactive. So when something goes wrong, you go and see a lawyer, or you wait till the last minute. And how can we flip that so that the law is proactive. How do we make it so accessible and so easy to access the information that the customers can come to us early. And this kind of leads on to this concept I was talking about before, around suggesting answers for the clients and proactively helping them and saying, well, look, you're a fintech startup based in Sydney, based on your industry, here are all the other actions that fintech startups made in Sydney, and so helping them, preparing a bit of a roadmap for them, and so it's less intimidating and they have a little bit more transparency over what's going to happen.

I mean, it's a great idea. Have you thought about moving into personal law so you know, wills and conveyancing and that sort of thing.

I mean, it's a great idea. Have you thought about moving into personal law so you know, wills and conveyancing and that sort of thing.

Yeah, we have kind of big ambitions to move into personal eventually. The legal industry is a pretty big behemoth to tackle, and so we really thought, where's the area that we can make the biggest impact early on, and small businesses was really that point. We saw that they had very little access to legal services. You know, it's almost assumed that small businesses can afford legal services because they're a business, but in reality, eighty percent of them don't access any kind of legal service, so there was a big gap there. The other kind of reason that we looked at small businesses first was that they actually have quite a predictable legal roadmap. So from the incorporation point, over the first three years, we can say, you know, fantastic on setting up your business. After three months, maybe it's time to hire your first employee. After six months, maybe it's time to trademark your name. So there's a real kind of flow to it, and if we could predict that flow, then we could use the software to proactively help them. But back to your question around personal law, we definitely want to move into personal law. We do do trusts, wheels, powers of attorney, those type of things on the platform, and I think eventually we'd love to move into that and maybe even down the kind of litigation and dispute angle, because that is another area of the law that's very painful for a lot of people and very scary and not that much transparency. But for now, I think small businesses are really who we want to help and we'll look to focus on them definitely for the next kind of eighteen months, with the ambition to start trying and looking after small businesses in other markets as well, not just Australia.

Yeah, we have kind of big ambitions to move into personal eventually. The legal industry is a pretty big behemoth to tackle, and so we really thought, where's the area that we can make the biggest impact early on, and small businesses was really that point. We saw that they had very little access to legal services. You know, it's almost assumed that small businesses can afford legal services because they're a business, but in reality, eighty percent of them don't access any kind of legal service, so there was a big gap there. The other kind of reason that we looked at small businesses first was that they actually have quite a predictable legal roadmap. So from the incorporation point, over the first three years, we can say, you know, fantastic on setting up your business. After three months, maybe it's time to hire your first employee. After six months, maybe it's time to trademark your name. So there's a real kind of flow to it, and if we could predict that flow, then we could use the software to proactively help them. But back to your question around personal law, we definitely want to move into personal law. We do do trusts, wheels, powers of attorney, those type of things on the platform, and I think eventually we'd love to move into that and maybe even down the kind of litigation and dispute angle, because that is another area of the law that's very painful for a lot of people and very scary and not that much transparency. But for now, I think small businesses are really who we want to help and we'll look to focus on them definitely for the next kind of eighteen months, with the ambition to start trying and looking after small businesses in other markets as well, not just Australia.

So are you a law company or a technology company?

So are you a law company or a technology company?

We're a technology company. So that's probably one of the big differences between us and maybe any of you know the new what they call new law providers out there, is that law Path is a software company at heart, and we want to build software to help to help clients. We outsource or we have relationships with our lawyers and they're the ones that are the law firms that provide the advice. Now, the reason we kind of chose that structure early on was that we felt it was far more scalable and which has proven to be right. You know, if we can build the software in the infrastructure for the legal services, then lawyers and clients can jump on that infrastructure and actually provide the advice to each other.

We're a technology company. So that's probably one of the big differences between us and maybe any of you know the new what they call new law providers out there, is that law Path is a software company at heart, and we want to build software to help to help clients. We outsource or we have relationships with our lawyers and they're the ones that are the law firms that provide the advice. Now, the reason we kind of chose that structure early on was that we felt it was far more scalable and which has proven to be right. You know, if we can build the software in the infrastructure for the legal services, then lawyers and clients can jump on that infrastructure and actually provide the advice to each other.

So where will we be, Where will law Path be in five years time?

So where will we be, Where will law Path be in five years time?

Well, I think hopefully, and firstly, I think we'll be in multiple markets. We see a huge opportunity, especially up in Asia where there are over fifty million small businesses with very very limited access to legal help. Moving countries has always been difficult for legal companies because there's different laws. One of the advantages that we see at law Path, back to the kind of infrastructure is it doesn't actually matter which lawyers, or which documents or which law is on the platform. The platform can scale into other markets. So five years time, you know, we're a company of thirty eight people right now, you know, obviously I hope that to be hundreds of people in new markets. We estimate about one percent of Australian small businesses have used law Paths so far, and my big north star is that we can get to ten percent within the next kind of three or four years.

Well, I think hopefully, and firstly, I think we'll be in multiple markets. We see a huge opportunity, especially up in Asia where there are over fifty million small businesses with very very limited access to legal help. Moving countries has always been difficult for legal companies because there's different laws. One of the advantages that we see at law Path, back to the kind of infrastructure is it doesn't actually matter which lawyers, or which documents or which law is on the platform. The platform can scale into other markets. So five years time, you know, we're a company of thirty eight people right now, you know, obviously I hope that to be hundreds of people in new markets. We estimate about one percent of Australian small businesses have used law Paths so far, and my big north star is that we can get to ten percent within the next kind of three or four years.

It's a great idea and good luck with it. Dom. Thanks for talking to fear and greed.

It's a great idea and good luck with it. Dom. Thanks for talking to fear and greed.

Not a problem, Thanks Sean.

Not a problem, Thanks Sean.

That was Dominic Woolrich, co founder and chief executive officer at law Path,

That was Dominic Woolrich, co founder and chief executive officer at law Path,