Welcome to Fear and Greed Sunday feature Michael Thompson. Now, if you're in business, whether it's large or small, and today's interview is absolutely a must listen because this is a guide to dealing with a crisis. Whether it's something blowing up on social media or the front page of the newspaper we've been hit by a cyber attack, or shareholders and demanding answers over something. This interview covers it all. It is from twenty twenty three when Sean Aylmer spoke with Carden Calder, the co founder of blue Chip Communication. It is a great one. I hope you enjoy it.

Welcome to Fear and Greed Sunday feature Michael Thompson. Now, if you're in business, whether it's large or small, and today's interview is absolutely a must listen because this is a guide to dealing with a crisis. Whether it's something blowing up on social media or the front page of the newspaper we've been hit by a cyber attack, or shareholders and demanding answers over something. This interview covers it all. It is from twenty twenty three when Sean Aylmer spoke with Carden Calder, the co founder of blue Chip Communication. It is a great one. I hope you enjoy it.

Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Almam. This year has tossed up some major crises for Australian businesses. Think of the ongoing Sagret, PwC, Quantus's pr nightmare, optist At outage. Of course, all of these show the importance of communications in a crisis. I wanted today to look at what to do and what not to do when things go wrong in business. Carden Calder is the co founder of financial communication group blue Chip Communication, which is a great supporter of this podcast card and welcome to Fear and Greed.

Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Almam. This year has tossed up some major crises for Australian businesses. Think of the ongoing Sagret, PwC, Quantus's pr nightmare, optist At outage. Of course, all of these show the importance of communications in a crisis. I wanted today to look at what to do and what not to do when things go wrong in business. Carden Calder is the co founder of financial communication group blue Chip Communication, which is a great supporter of this podcast card and welcome to Fear and Greed.

Hi Sean, thank you for having me here.

Hi Sean, thank you for having me here.

So what do you do when something crazy goes on and the client rings you and says, fix it? Oh, how do you go from there?

So what do you do when something crazy goes on and the client rings you and says, fix it? Oh, how do you go from there?

I take a very long pause. I ask a lot of questions, right, and then I wish they'd called me six months or six years earlier.

I take a very long pause. I ask a lot of questions, right, and then I wish they'd called me six months or six years earlier.

Well, actually, let's get into it there. I mean, when there is a crisis, is it often the pointing end that you get involved, not through your want, through the client's want, or is it generally something that's been building up?

Well, actually, let's get into it there. I mean, when there is a crisis, is it often the pointing end that you get involved, not through your want, through the client's want, or is it generally something that's been building up?

Excellent question. I think almost every crisis I've ever worked on is something that could have been predicted and that had a relatively long gestation period. Not always true, you know, there are events sometimes that come across us, like say a nine to eleven. If you're a business, nine to eleven really felt like it came out of the blue. Perhaps not a few were a sovereign nation, but many, many times we get a call from a client, a CEO or a chamman who thinks they got hit blindsided by something and it came out of the blue. But what we see is that the beginning of that issue happened a long time earlier, and the opportunity to intervene and preempt was a long time earlier. So we do our best when the ambulance doores open, and sometimes you can really turn it around for a client. In fact, probably more often than I would have thought at the beginning of my profession.

Excellent question. I think almost every crisis I've ever worked on is something that could have been predicted and that had a relatively long gestation period. Not always true, you know, there are events sometimes that come across us, like say a nine to eleven. If you're a business, nine to eleven really felt like it came out of the blue. Perhaps not a few were a sovereign nation, but many, many times we get a call from a client, a CEO or a chamman who thinks they got hit blindsided by something and it came out of the blue. But what we see is that the beginning of that issue happened a long time earlier, and the opportunity to intervene and preempt was a long time earlier. So we do our best when the ambulance doores open, and sometimes you can really turn it around for a client. In fact, probably more often than I would have thought at the beginning of my profession.

Okay, so is there a one size fits all approach to crisis communications when it does happen?

Okay, so is there a one size fits all approach to crisis communications when it does happen?

There are certainly some general principles. I'm very wary of absoluteses in this because I think there are a lot of phrases thrown around. Some of them are helpful, some of them are not. I think it's been really interesting to watch media commentate on crisis management with regards to OPTUS because they've nailed some of the formula and some of the things that journals have been talking about absolutely right. And they're things like show up and lead. You know, if I were to pick maybe three or four things that I think you really do have to get right almost every time, then showing up and leading means being fully transparent. It's been credible. You don't have to have all the answers, but you do have to show you're prepared to be out in front amid uncertainty. Leading in inverted commas, I would argue, is often simply just three things. In a crisis, it's taking charge of the response, even if you don't quite know where that's hitded and you don't when it starts if you're the CEO or the management team. So first of all, you have to be seen to be in charge, and you have to actually be in charge. You don't have to be pulling the leavers, but you have to be fronting the issue. Secondly, you have to be visible, and thirdly you have to communicate. I know those things sound really basic, but it's really easy to lose sight of them when you're stressed. Your management team don't know what to do, and you don't know how the story is going to end.

There are certainly some general principles. I'm very wary of absoluteses in this because I think there are a lot of phrases thrown around. Some of them are helpful, some of them are not. I think it's been really interesting to watch media commentate on crisis management with regards to OPTUS because they've nailed some of the formula and some of the things that journals have been talking about absolutely right. And they're things like show up and lead. You know, if I were to pick maybe three or four things that I think you really do have to get right almost every time, then showing up and leading means being fully transparent. It's been credible. You don't have to have all the answers, but you do have to show you're prepared to be out in front amid uncertainty. Leading in inverted commas, I would argue, is often simply just three things. In a crisis, it's taking charge of the response, even if you don't quite know where that's hitded and you don't when it starts if you're the CEO or the management team. So first of all, you have to be seen to be in charge, and you have to actually be in charge. You don't have to be pulling the leavers, but you have to be fronting the issue. Secondly, you have to be visible, and thirdly you have to communicate. I know those things sound really basic, but it's really easy to lose sight of them when you're stressed. Your management team don't know what to do, and you don't know how the story is going to end.

Okay, And it's a good point that because sometimes you won't or the CEO won't have the answer, but they've still got to turn up.

Okay, And it's a good point that because sometimes you won't or the CEO won't have the answer, but they've still got to turn up.

Is that what you're saying exactly exactly, and the reason they have to turn up is when things go wrong, leadership matters more than any other time. It's really interesting. I found out about sort of twenty three years ago I was working for an organization where everything was going to hell and people like you Sean were drilling holes in US, and I thought, surely the CEO and chairman's reputation are determining all the trouble that we're having, and their behavior is determining our reputation. So we're digging to find the evidence, the actual stats behind what drives reputation, and I found that interestingly, leadership does not drive reputation in business as usual, but when it does drive reputation and trust is in a crisis. So it's particularly important in a crisis that you lead, that you communicate, that you get out. You lead the story is another one of the basic principles and one that people are really talking about at the moment. You might call it control the narrative, but I think that's a bit patronizing. If you're Australian, you can't really control the story, but you can certainly steer it, and if you don't, others will. So that's another one of those things that you can go back to and say, well, what are the basic principles? Show up and lead, lead the story, be in the story, be directing it. And there are a few other things as well, which is you've got to put people first, and you have to put particularly people you've hurt first, and you have to demonstrate you doing something tangible about it. And they're the things that no matter, no matter what's going on, they're sort of touchstones for leaders in the toughest times.

Is that what you're saying exactly exactly, and the reason they have to turn up is when things go wrong, leadership matters more than any other time. It's really interesting. I found out about sort of twenty three years ago I was working for an organization where everything was going to hell and people like you Sean were drilling holes in US, and I thought, surely the CEO and chairman's reputation are determining all the trouble that we're having, and their behavior is determining our reputation. So we're digging to find the evidence, the actual stats behind what drives reputation, and I found that interestingly, leadership does not drive reputation in business as usual, but when it does drive reputation and trust is in a crisis. So it's particularly important in a crisis that you lead, that you communicate, that you get out. You lead the story is another one of the basic principles and one that people are really talking about at the moment. You might call it control the narrative, but I think that's a bit patronizing. If you're Australian, you can't really control the story, but you can certainly steer it, and if you don't, others will. So that's another one of those things that you can go back to and say, well, what are the basic principles? Show up and lead, lead the story, be in the story, be directing it. And there are a few other things as well, which is you've got to put people first, and you have to put particularly people you've hurt first, and you have to demonstrate you doing something tangible about it. And they're the things that no matter, no matter what's going on, they're sort of touchstones for leaders in the toughest times.

Stay with me, Carden, we'll be back in a minute. I'm speaking to card and Call, the co founder of blue Chip Communication. What about the case of OPTAs So, I'm not sure whether a cyber hack is a left field event. In a sense it is, and then the way they handle that, and then they had the outage in the past couple of weeks, they kind of didn't stand a chance after this latest outage simply because the media remembered twelve months earlier. Does this compounding effect? I mean, the come Off Bank had it in their banking crisis and their CEO ended up leaving. In fact, a lot of the banks had it and CEOs ended up leaving as a result of it. Is it hard once you've kind of lost control of it, and particularly in Optice's case, two months later, another big issue is it hard to grab control back?

Stay with me, Carden, we'll be back in a minute. I'm speaking to card and Call, the co founder of blue Chip Communication. What about the case of OPTAs So, I'm not sure whether a cyber hack is a left field event. In a sense it is, and then the way they handle that, and then they had the outage in the past couple of weeks, they kind of didn't stand a chance after this latest outage simply because the media remembered twelve months earlier. Does this compounding effect? I mean, the come Off Bank had it in their banking crisis and their CEO ended up leaving. In fact, a lot of the banks had it and CEOs ended up leaving as a result of it. Is it hard once you've kind of lost control of it, and particularly in Optice's case, two months later, another big issue is it hard to grab control back?

It is, but it's not impossible. And there are two things that you have on your side. One is simply time. You know, the more days, months, years that pass from a problem, the more memories fade. But the other thing that is on your side is the opportunity to get it right next time, because you've had this salient, searing, painful lesson in how not to get it right. So one of the things I find particularly tricky about Optus and to some extent Quantus, although I think that's a bit of a different situation, is Optus have had one of the best practice runs any organization could have for crisis management. They had a genuine crisis which was a very predictable operational issue caused by cybercriminal behavior. Any board who isn't predicting and planning and preparing and stress testing their management team for cyber criminal behavior that causes cataclysmic events in their business possibly needs to have a think about doing it. So Optus have had this fantastic practice running a year ago which did not go well for them, but which gave them a perfect opportunity to learn and get better through practice. And yet here we are a year later and they haven't done it. And I say that also with a little bit of a caution because I really don't like piling in on a CEO or a management team who are already getting kicked by everybody else. So I think it's easy from the outside, and I've been on the inside a lot. It's easy from the outside to be an expert. It's a little bit trickier when you're the person in the glare of the spotlight. But I think the more times you've been challenged, the better you should get at it.

It is, but it's not impossible. And there are two things that you have on your side. One is simply time. You know, the more days, months, years that pass from a problem, the more memories fade. But the other thing that is on your side is the opportunity to get it right next time, because you've had this salient, searing, painful lesson in how not to get it right. So one of the things I find particularly tricky about Optus and to some extent Quantus, although I think that's a bit of a different situation, is Optus have had one of the best practice runs any organization could have for crisis management. They had a genuine crisis which was a very predictable operational issue caused by cybercriminal behavior. Any board who isn't predicting and planning and preparing and stress testing their management team for cyber criminal behavior that causes cataclysmic events in their business possibly needs to have a think about doing it. So Optus have had this fantastic practice running a year ago which did not go well for them, but which gave them a perfect opportunity to learn and get better through practice. And yet here we are a year later and they haven't done it. And I say that also with a little bit of a caution because I really don't like piling in on a CEO or a management team who are already getting kicked by everybody else. So I think it's easy from the outside, and I've been on the inside a lot. It's easy from the outside to be an expert. It's a little bit trickier when you're the person in the glare of the spotlight. But I think the more times you've been challenged, the better you should get at it.

Okay, So let's lot b at Quantas because that wasn't so much. I mean, it was very CEO focused, but it was kind of fairly broad range of issues. Airfares, for example, lost baggage, your legal action over tickets being sold in canceled flights. What do you make the way the airline has handled that crisis, which seem to be a rolling crisis.

Okay, So let's lot b at Quantas because that wasn't so much. I mean, it was very CEO focused, but it was kind of fairly broad range of issues. Airfares, for example, lost baggage, your legal action over tickets being sold in canceled flights. What do you make the way the airline has handled that crisis, which seem to be a rolling crisis.

Very good point. It is a rolling crisis. The thing about Quantus that I find interesting is that they are one of our most loved brands as a country. They are the place that we feel like home. You get on that plane when you're coming home and you hear the Australian accent and it's like, oh, you know, my shoulders dropped. Australians have such affection for this one hundred and two year old brand, but that's as much of a challenge as it is an opportunity. It makes your brand very resilient and your reputation very resilient. So if we think about that sort of Coca Cola CEO analogy of the red ball, that for the ball that bounces when you drop it, or the glass ball, Quantus has gone from being the ball that bounces when it's dropped, Quantus's reputation to being the glass ball that no longer bounces. And the reason for that is they put themselves out in the cold so long if you freeze a rubber ball, it will shatter when you drop it. That's where Quantus are now, and they did not get there overnight. They put themselves in Siberia through a series of actions which were completely at odds with what people expected of them. So the interesting thing about Quantus is this idea of expectation frames, where we have an expectation of leaders of brands, particularly brands we know well, and then we will always judge that brand against our expectations. And the expectations are what the brand or the business or the leadership have set for themselves because it's all the stuff they did for the last one hundred and two years. So Quantus's biggest issue right now is not what people think of them. It's the fact that they're behaving differently to the way that they have behaved on a long term average. And so we're all going, hang in a minute, how come you've changed? Why aren't you doing what you used to do?

Very good point. It is a rolling crisis. The thing about Quantus that I find interesting is that they are one of our most loved brands as a country. They are the place that we feel like home. You get on that plane when you're coming home and you hear the Australian accent and it's like, oh, you know, my shoulders dropped. Australians have such affection for this one hundred and two year old brand, but that's as much of a challenge as it is an opportunity. It makes your brand very resilient and your reputation very resilient. So if we think about that sort of Coca Cola CEO analogy of the red ball, that for the ball that bounces when you drop it, or the glass ball, Quantus has gone from being the ball that bounces when it's dropped, Quantus's reputation to being the glass ball that no longer bounces. And the reason for that is they put themselves out in the cold so long if you freeze a rubber ball, it will shatter when you drop it. That's where Quantus are now, and they did not get there overnight. They put themselves in Siberia through a series of actions which were completely at odds with what people expected of them. So the interesting thing about Quantus is this idea of expectation frames, where we have an expectation of leaders of brands, particularly brands we know well, and then we will always judge that brand against our expectations. And the expectations are what the brand or the business or the leadership have set for themselves because it's all the stuff they did for the last one hundred and two years. So Quantus's biggest issue right now is not what people think of them. It's the fact that they're behaving differently to the way that they have behaved on a long term average. And so we're all going, hang in a minute, how come you've changed? Why aren't you doing what you used to do?

So how hard is to rebuild a corporate reputation like quantuses once it's damaged.

So how hard is to rebuild a corporate reputation like quantuses once it's damaged.

I think that's a little bit like how many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb. It might be very expensive, might take a long period of time, but the light bulb has to want to change. The organization has to want to change. I think rebuilding reputations is easier than most people think it is, and we know because we've done it a number of times. Your audiences and your customers and your investors' customers, people are remarkably forgiving if you demonstrate humility, if you become a student of the process of how do I rebuild my reputation, and if you genuinely want to be better for the people you serve, But The biggest barrier I see to that happening is two things. One is organizations, boards and management teams being humbled enough to listen to the bad stuff people are saying about them and to really understand their expectations and not get too offended by that, like genuinely openly listening, and then secondly genuinely wanting to rebuild and putting the effort in. You know, it can be done, but it takes it often takes quite a long period of time. It takes significant effort and a remarkable degree of humility.

I think that's a little bit like how many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb. It might be very expensive, might take a long period of time, but the light bulb has to want to change. The organization has to want to change. I think rebuilding reputations is easier than most people think it is, and we know because we've done it a number of times. Your audiences and your customers and your investors' customers, people are remarkably forgiving if you demonstrate humility, if you become a student of the process of how do I rebuild my reputation, and if you genuinely want to be better for the people you serve, But The biggest barrier I see to that happening is two things. One is organizations, boards and management teams being humbled enough to listen to the bad stuff people are saying about them and to really understand their expectations and not get too offended by that, like genuinely openly listening, and then secondly genuinely wanting to rebuild and putting the effort in. You know, it can be done, but it takes it often takes quite a long period of time. It takes significant effort and a remarkable degree of humility.

Yeah, okay, So I mean talking about big businesses, is it the same for small businesses? It might be my coffee that I go to every In fact, I told Michael Thompson on the show, I was very upset with my coffee shop because I went there one morning it was the day of the office outage. I said, look, I'll come back with cash in half an hour, and I go there every day. They wouldn't allow me just to take the coffee and then come back, so I haven't been back there since. So it's kind of the same deal in a sense. How do small businesses will handle the crisis to begin with? And then if they are damaged, what do they do?

Yeah, okay, So I mean talking about big businesses, is it the same for small businesses? It might be my coffee that I go to every In fact, I told Michael Thompson on the show, I was very upset with my coffee shop because I went there one morning it was the day of the office outage. I said, look, I'll come back with cash in half an hour, and I go there every day. They wouldn't allow me just to take the coffee and then come back, so I haven't been back there since. So it's kind of the same deal in a sense. How do small businesses will handle the crisis to begin with? And then if they are damaged, what do they do?

Ouch? I feel sorry for your coffee shops. I know what you mean. You know again, your expectation in that moment was you know me, and you trust me I will do the right thing, And they've misjudged what you expected of them and they haven't done it. So I think it's harder for small businesses. You're a business. I'm a business. I find this quite difficult. You know. Often I'm giving big businesses advice and I'm thinking, gee, I'm not doing that myself. I think the things that can help, whether you're a soul trader or just a few people, the things that can help you are giving some proper thought to what would break us. So for any business, let's say you are a retail trader, like your coffee shop, it's very predictable that you'll have a payments system failure at some point and you won't be able to take people's money electronically. So if you just you know, three glasses of wine or whatever your favorite drink is, or go for a walk and apply your mind to all the shit that might go wrong, and then just have a bit of a think about. Okay, three big things that might go wrong for us, that would end our business of these things. And here is the basic response I would have to those you know, that coffee shop, and I might have had like a raffle ticket book under the counter and given you a ticket and going yeah, bring this back and pay and I'll remember. And he would have had the stub in it. You know, I'm making that up. But there are ways you can.

Ouch? I feel sorry for your coffee shops. I know what you mean. You know again, your expectation in that moment was you know me, and you trust me I will do the right thing, And they've misjudged what you expected of them and they haven't done it. So I think it's harder for small businesses. You're a business. I'm a business. I find this quite difficult. You know. Often I'm giving big businesses advice and I'm thinking, gee, I'm not doing that myself. I think the things that can help, whether you're a soul trader or just a few people, the things that can help you are giving some proper thought to what would break us. So for any business, let's say you are a retail trader, like your coffee shop, it's very predictable that you'll have a payments system failure at some point and you won't be able to take people's money electronically. So if you just you know, three glasses of wine or whatever your favorite drink is, or go for a walk and apply your mind to all the shit that might go wrong, and then just have a bit of a think about. Okay, three big things that might go wrong for us, that would end our business of these things. And here is the basic response I would have to those you know, that coffee shop, and I might have had like a raffle ticket book under the counter and given you a ticket and going yeah, bring this back and pay and I'll remember. And he would have had the stub in it. You know, I'm making that up. But there are ways you can.

Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, but it's very pragmatic. Yeah, advice Carden. Yeah, Cardin, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, but it's very pragmatic. Yeah, advice Carden. Yeah, Cardin, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

Thank you for having me, Sean It it's great to talk to you.

Thank you for having me, Sean It it's great to talk to you.

That was card and Call, the co founder of blue Chip Communication, which is a supporter of this podcast. This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's best busines this podcast. I'm seanelma Enjoy your day.

That was card and Call, the co founder of blue Chip Communication, which is a supporter of this podcast. This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's best busines this podcast. I'm seanelma Enjoy your day.

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