Welcome to the Fear and Greed business Interview. I'm sure an almight gold is having a record breaking run right now, with the price of the precious metal surging well passed three thousand US dollars an ounce. Gold's along been seen as a safe option and the boom reflects the volatility and global markets at the moment. One of the main ways Australians invest in gold is through ETFs exchange traded funds, and one of the best named ETFs comes from global investment giant Van Neck. The ASEX code for its gold bullion ETF is nug n ugg. Doesn't get better than that. Remember this is general information only and you should seek professional advice before making investment decisions. Cameron McCormack is senior portfolio manager at Vannick. Cameron, welcome to Fear and Greed.

Welcome to the Fear and Greed business Interview. I'm sure an almight gold is having a record breaking run right now, with the price of the precious metal surging well passed three thousand US dollars an ounce. Gold's along been seen as a safe option and the boom reflects the volatility and global markets at the moment. One of the main ways Australians invest in gold is through ETFs exchange traded funds, and one of the best named ETFs comes from global investment giant Van Neck. The ASEX code for its gold bullion ETF is nug n ugg. Doesn't get better than that. Remember this is general information only and you should seek professional advice before making investment decisions. Cameron McCormack is senior portfolio manager at Vannick. Cameron, welcome to Fear and Greed.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for having me.

We'll get onto nugge at a moment and your other ETFs involving gold. But what's driving the price of gold at the moment.

We'll get onto nugge at a moment and your other ETFs involving gold. But what's driving the price of gold at the moment.

Yeah, it's been an interesting environment for goals and what's I guess quite paramount is that it's not your traditional drivers In terms of the performance of late it's been a multitude of things. Now, if you take a set back and look at the geopolitical environment, unfortunately it is quite fractured and that's really been a key driver of the performance cent of late. If you think about more recently, we've seen weakness in the US dollar. That's been a key cartlist for gold. And we're broadly speaking, the I guess lack of clarity around tariffs has really spooked the market, and because gold is seen as that safe haven asset, that's been a key driver performance as well. Now, if you think about the last three years, what we've seen is we've seen consistent buying of gold from central banks looking to really diverse by their reserves, and that's been the ultimate key driver of why the gold class has moved past that three thousand dollars MARC from usd dollar terms.

Yeah, it's been an interesting environment for goals and what's I guess quite paramount is that it's not your traditional drivers In terms of the performance of late it's been a multitude of things. Now, if you take a set back and look at the geopolitical environment, unfortunately it is quite fractured and that's really been a key driver of the performance cent of late. If you think about more recently, we've seen weakness in the US dollar. That's been a key cartlist for gold. And we're broadly speaking, the I guess lack of clarity around tariffs has really spooked the market, and because gold is seen as that safe haven asset, that's been a key driver performance as well. Now, if you think about the last three years, what we've seen is we've seen consistent buying of gold from central banks looking to really diverse by their reserves, and that's been the ultimate key driver of why the gold class has moved past that three thousand dollars MARC from usd dollar terms.

It does come down to supply and demand. There's actually a very limited supply of gold in the world, and when you're talking about central bank demanding it, that's I mean, it's just the fundamentals of economics that's actually pushing gold up, Is that right?

It does come down to supply and demand. There's actually a very limited supply of gold in the world, and when you're talking about central bank demanding it, that's I mean, it's just the fundamentals of economics that's actually pushing gold up, Is that right?

Yeah? Certainly if you look at gold miners in terms of their supply, it has dwindled over the last twenty to thirty years. So if you take it from a literally lack of supply coming into the market and you're seeing I guess quite strong demand, naturally that imbalance is going to continue to drive the gold price further up.

Yeah? Certainly if you look at gold miners in terms of their supply, it has dwindled over the last twenty to thirty years. So if you take it from a literally lack of supply coming into the market and you're seeing I guess quite strong demand, naturally that imbalance is going to continue to drive the gold price further up.

So as this bull run, is it different to previous bull runs? Certainly the price is higher than most other any other bull run in fact, but is it kind of typical of a bull run.

So as this bull run, is it different to previous bull runs? Certainly the price is higher than most other any other bull run in fact, but is it kind of typical of a bull run.

Yeah, So if you look at I guess, this full market relative to previous bull markets. Now, if you think about the period between twenty nineteen and twenty twenty, there was quite a consistent ball run in terms of the gold primes, and also coming out of COVID as well, that was quite a consistent ball And now, the key driver of those two bull runs it was really two things. There was concerns about the broader economy picking up, the global fine crisis the onset of that, but also the stagger I guess reacceleration in growth was quite I guess a slow burn. Now that was a key driver for gold as well. And what we saw as well is during those environment the US ten year real yield continue to climb and from a technical basis, the goal price has a very strong negative correlation with changes in the US ten year real yield. So because of that decline, that was a key catalyst for why the goal price increased.

Yeah, So if you look at I guess, this full market relative to previous bull markets. Now, if you think about the period between twenty nineteen and twenty twenty, there was quite a consistent ball run in terms of the gold primes, and also coming out of COVID as well, that was quite a consistent ball And now, the key driver of those two bull runs it was really two things. There was concerns about the broader economy picking up, the global fine crisis the onset of that, but also the stagger I guess reacceleration in growth was quite I guess a slow burn. Now that was a key driver for gold as well. And what we saw as well is during those environment the US ten year real yield continue to climb and from a technical basis, the goal price has a very strong negative correlation with changes in the US ten year real yield. So because of that decline, that was a key catalyst for why the goal price increased.

Okay, what do you expect happens next? And that's probably a totally unfair question, Cameron, because if you knew that, you probably wouldn't be working. But I mean, what's the prognosis for gold over the next year or two?

Okay, what do you expect happens next? And that's probably a totally unfair question, Cameron, because if you knew that, you probably wouldn't be working. But I mean, what's the prognosis for gold over the next year or two?

Do you think? Yeah? So from van X's perspective, you know, we do see further upside from here. And the key reason, unfortunately, is that if you think about the geo political environment, it is very fractured. There's I guess ongoing concerns about this tariff being quite belonged. Marcus don't like this uncertainty, and that's really a key catalyst for why gold is in favor at the moment, and it is really why we think it's the bean favor going forward. Now. Now, ourther area that we really like as well is gold miners. Gold miners, in terms of their pricing relative to their fair values training at a twenty five percent discount. So if you're looking for other ways to really play gold more oddly speaking, you know, we think gold miners are very more placed going forward as well.

Do you think? Yeah? So from van X's perspective, you know, we do see further upside from here. And the key reason, unfortunately, is that if you think about the geo political environment, it is very fractured. There's I guess ongoing concerns about this tariff being quite belonged. Marcus don't like this uncertainty, and that's really a key catalyst for why gold is in favor at the moment, and it is really why we think it's the bean favor going forward. Now. Now, ourther area that we really like as well is gold miners. Gold miners, in terms of their pricing relative to their fair values training at a twenty five percent discount. So if you're looking for other ways to really play gold more oddly speaking, you know, we think gold miners are very more placed going forward as well.

Okay, well we might come into some of those options in a moment. But just quickly, you mentioned central banks buying up gold. Why are they doing it? I know the Chinese Central Bank has been a lot of news about that one buying up gold. Is it the safe haven reason or is there more to it?

Okay, well we might come into some of those options in a moment. But just quickly, you mentioned central banks buying up gold. Why are they doing it? I know the Chinese Central Bank has been a lot of news about that one buying up gold. Is it the safe haven reason or is there more to it?

Yes, if you look at the central banks, the key ones buying are actually emerging markets, and the key driver of that is that they're looking to diversify away from the reliance on the US dollar. So really it's a plane to decouple from the US dollar, and really goal is seen as a way to I guess you really play that direction.

Yes, if you look at the central banks, the key ones buying are actually emerging markets, and the key driver of that is that they're looking to diversify away from the reliance on the US dollar. So really it's a plane to decouple from the US dollar, and really goal is seen as a way to I guess you really play that direction.

Say with me, Cameron. We'll be back in a moment. I'm speaking to Cameron McCormack from then ECK. So you were talking before the break about the central banks diversifying away from the usd Let's bring it back to sophisticated investors and even retail investors. Where does gold fit into their portfolios?

Say with me, Cameron. We'll be back in a moment. I'm speaking to Cameron McCormack from then ECK. So you were talking before the break about the central banks diversifying away from the usd Let's bring it back to sophisticated investors and even retail investors. Where does gold fit into their portfolios?

So if you look at golds on an isolated basis, it is volatile relative toset other asset classes. But the key benefit of gold is that it has a very low correlation with other asset classes. So if you think about in your traditional I Guess bonds and equity portfolio, having a sleeve of gold as part of that border portfolio has shown over the last fifteen years to increase your return while targeting the same I guess risk profile. So from that perspective, you know, it really is seen as a really good way to diverse by your portfolio.

So if you look at golds on an isolated basis, it is volatile relative toset other asset classes. But the key benefit of gold is that it has a very low correlation with other asset classes. So if you think about in your traditional I Guess bonds and equity portfolio, having a sleeve of gold as part of that border portfolio has shown over the last fifteen years to increase your return while targeting the same I guess risk profile. So from that perspective, you know, it really is seen as a really good way to diverse by your portfolio.

And I appreciate this is the Dorothy dixter for vank. But ETFs. Why ETFs when you're buying gold.

And I appreciate this is the Dorothy dixter for vank. But ETFs. Why ETFs when you're buying gold.

Yeah, there's a range of ETFs on the market giving exposure to the spot class of gold. From our perspective, we offer nug and the key I guess differential for our offering is that it only gives you exposure to gold held at the Perth Mint. If you think about some of the other players in the market, the majority of them do give it, do give you exposure gold, but it's held at the JP Morgan vault in London. And with those I guess gold bars, they come from all around the world, so that include the likes of even I Guess Russia. So from that perspective, if you're looking for just I guess exposure to austray and goals. That's a key differential there.

Yeah, there's a range of ETFs on the market giving exposure to the spot class of gold. From our perspective, we offer nug and the key I guess differential for our offering is that it only gives you exposure to gold held at the Perth Mint. If you think about some of the other players in the market, the majority of them do give it, do give you exposure gold, but it's held at the JP Morgan vault in London. And with those I guess gold bars, they come from all around the world, so that include the likes of even I Guess Russia. So from that perspective, if you're looking for just I guess exposure to austray and goals. That's a key differential there.

And tell me, does van Neck as the issuer of the ETF, so I buy a unit in the ETF, does Vannick actually as the issuer own the gold? I presume it's not in your vaults. I presume it sits in the perth Mint. But you actually own the physical gold. Is that right?

And tell me, does van Neck as the issuer of the ETF, so I buy a unit in the ETF, does Vannick actually as the issuer own the gold? I presume it's not in your vaults. I presume it sits in the perth Mint. But you actually own the physical gold. Is that right?

Yeah? So if we went to perfmitt and did our due diligence, there would be an allocation I guess stored away for our nug ETF that gives you direct allocation to the underlying goal.

Yeah? So if we went to perfmitt and did our due diligence, there would be an allocation I guess stored away for our nug ETF that gives you direct allocation to the underlying goal.

Okay, And can individuals so I'm not recommending this at all, but can individuals buy They can buy goal certificates I think for the perth Mint, so they can actually own the goal themselves, I presume, rather than doing an ETF.

Okay, And can individuals so I'm not recommending this at all, but can individuals buy They can buy goal certificates I think for the perth Mint, so they can actually own the goal themselves, I presume, rather than doing an ETF.

Yeah, so that investors do have the option to I guess, get exposed to the gold themselves through, for example, per minute. I guess the key difference when you think about ETFs is because you're investing as part of a rule er I guess offering, you're getting an institutional rate and that's typically in terms of the management fee less than what you get as I guess retail investor trying to access gold yourself. And that's really the key advantage of I guess an ETF offering opposed to taking a direct ownership.

Yeah, so that investors do have the option to I guess, get exposed to the gold themselves through, for example, per minute. I guess the key difference when you think about ETFs is because you're investing as part of a rule er I guess offering, you're getting an institutional rate and that's typically in terms of the management fee less than what you get as I guess retail investor trying to access gold yourself. And that's really the key advantage of I guess an ETF offering opposed to taking a direct ownership.

So not all gold is the same. You can have nug which is a direct gold holdings, but Veneck has other ETF so gold mine as you mentioned before, for example. So just kind of explain why an investor might think about gold miners rather than gold.

So not all gold is the same. You can have nug which is a direct gold holdings, but Veneck has other ETF so gold mine as you mentioned before, for example. So just kind of explain why an investor might think about gold miners rather than gold.

Yes, there's really I guess two key reasons why gold miners. The first one being that it gives you a leverage exposure to gold. So typically when the gold price increases, goal miners increase by I guess higher multiple and also on the downside as well. The second reason why you may want to invest in gold miners is that if you look at where prices are currently relative to their fair value, even despite the increase in the gold price, gold miners are still trading in a twenty five percent discount on that basis. So from a you know, if you think about were broadly speaking in the investment complex, you know a lot of asset classes are very expensive and gold miners is one of those few asset classes that we think are really undervalued at the moment.

Yes, there's really I guess two key reasons why gold miners. The first one being that it gives you a leverage exposure to gold. So typically when the gold price increases, goal miners increase by I guess higher multiple and also on the downside as well. The second reason why you may want to invest in gold miners is that if you look at where prices are currently relative to their fair value, even despite the increase in the gold price, gold miners are still trading in a twenty five percent discount on that basis. So from a you know, if you think about were broadly speaking in the investment complex, you know a lot of asset classes are very expensive and gold miners is one of those few asset classes that we think are really undervalued at the moment.

Why is that? So we're talking Northern Star and remeally since these sorts of stocks, is it? I mean, the price of gold has run, but they haven't run as hard. I think that's what you're saying. Why is that?

Why is that? So we're talking Northern Star and remeally since these sorts of stocks, is it? I mean, the price of gold has run, but they haven't run as hard. I think that's what you're saying. Why is that?

Yeah, there's I guess a range of reasons. I guess the key one being if you think about the evolution, particularly coming out of the global financial crisis, what we've seen is quite a prolonged growth rotation and as a result of that, unfortunately, I think gold miners have sort of become a bit out of favor. Given that sort of I guess the tech players and Magnificent seven have been very very popular. So that's really the first component. And I think we're borely speaking value companies, and that in itself is leads itself to gold miners have just been out of favor because that environment. But having said that, we've started to see a bit of a rotation over the last few weeks. If you think about the equity markets of late, there has been a rotation out of US step in particular into European markets, that's really a signal for a value rotation. And as a result, gold miners and anything sort of value orientated has become back into favor. And we think that, but I guess, you know, potentially going forward, it could be further I guess links to this potential rotation.

Yeah, there's I guess a range of reasons. I guess the key one being if you think about the evolution, particularly coming out of the global financial crisis, what we've seen is quite a prolonged growth rotation and as a result of that, unfortunately, I think gold miners have sort of become a bit out of favor. Given that sort of I guess the tech players and Magnificent seven have been very very popular. So that's really the first component. And I think we're borely speaking value companies, and that in itself is leads itself to gold miners have just been out of favor because that environment. But having said that, we've started to see a bit of a rotation over the last few weeks. If you think about the equity markets of late, there has been a rotation out of US step in particular into European markets, that's really a signal for a value rotation. And as a result, gold miners and anything sort of value orientated has become back into favor. And we think that, but I guess, you know, potentially going forward, it could be further I guess links to this potential rotation.

Cameron, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

Cameron, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

Thank you.

Thank you.

That was Cameron mccomack, Senior portfolio manager at van k. This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Remember this is general information only and you should see professional advice before investing. Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed Daily Business us for people who make their own decisions. I'm Sean Elmer. Enjoy your day.

That was Cameron mccomack, Senior portfolio manager at van k. This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Remember this is general information only and you should see professional advice before investing. Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed Daily Business us for people who make their own decisions. I'm Sean Elmer. Enjoy your day.