Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. Small business in Australia has had a tough few years and it's not getting any easier. Those businesses that survived the pandemic are now being hit by inflation, rising interest rates, staff and schools shortages and ongoing supply chain problems. Bruce Billson spent two decades as a federal MP, holding a number of ministerial positions, including Minister for Small Business. Post- politics, his knowledge and passion for the sector saw him become the Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman. Bruce Billson, welcome to Fear and Greed.

Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. Small business in Australia has had a tough few years and it's not getting any easier. Those businesses that survived the pandemic are now being hit by inflation, rising interest rates, staff and schools shortages and ongoing supply chain problems. Bruce Billson spent two decades as a federal MP, holding a number of ministerial positions, including Minister for Small Business. Post- politics, his knowledge and passion for the sector saw him become the Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman. Bruce Billson, welcome to Fear and Greed.

Sean. Awesome to be with you and the Fearsters and the Greedsters.

Sean. Awesome to be with you and the Fearsters and the Greedsters.

Now, Bruce, I want to know.

Now, Bruce, I want to know.

Yeah?

Yeah?

You didn't have to move back to Canberra, but it sounds like you did move back to (inaudible) . You got out, but you've come back.

You didn't have to move back to Canberra, but it sounds like you did move back to (inaudible) . You got out, but you've come back.

20 years in public life. Seven terms, thankfully undefeated in my electorate of Dunkley, which was down on the Mornington Peninsula or in Frankston, or as I would call it, Melbourne's riviera, Sean. Got out of that to spend more quality time with the family, because it's quite a punishing lifestyle. And we're the volunteers, but your family are the conscripts and looking for a little more time with me. And so, that was great. Went out and set up a few businesses, got heavily involved with a couple, in particular. Judo Bank and a few others, just to help improve a lot of small businesses. And then was asked to take on this role, which ironically was one of the initiatives of mine when I was the cabinet minister. So, I understand deeply what its objectives are and what it's about. And I thought about trying to meet those ambitions commuting from Melbourne. Well, let's just say Sean, that didn't go down well with the family. So, new chapter. We decided we'd go and move near the capital and we're building a house out at Murrumbateman, the country wine growing (inaudible) . Yeah. So, yeah. It takes me back there as now a near resident rather than a regular visitor.

20 years in public life. Seven terms, thankfully undefeated in my electorate of Dunkley, which was down on the Mornington Peninsula or in Frankston, or as I would call it, Melbourne's riviera, Sean. Got out of that to spend more quality time with the family, because it's quite a punishing lifestyle. And we're the volunteers, but your family are the conscripts and looking for a little more time with me. And so, that was great. Went out and set up a few businesses, got heavily involved with a couple, in particular. Judo Bank and a few others, just to help improve a lot of small businesses. And then was asked to take on this role, which ironically was one of the initiatives of mine when I was the cabinet minister. So, I understand deeply what its objectives are and what it's about. And I thought about trying to meet those ambitions commuting from Melbourne. Well, let's just say Sean, that didn't go down well with the family. So, new chapter. We decided we'd go and move near the capital and we're building a house out at Murrumbateman, the country wine growing (inaudible) . Yeah. So, yeah. It takes me back there as now a near resident rather than a regular visitor.

Okay. So, what exactly does the Ombudsman for small business do?

Okay. So, what exactly does the Ombudsman for small business do?

Look, great question. And it was born out of firsthand observation about where I thought there was some gaps in the way the Commonwealth, the federal government did its business. It became pretty obvious to me that a lot of government portfolios, departments and agencies do things in the name of, or do things to, small ans family business, without a really deep understanding of what that means. And really without grasping the simple fact that a small business isn't a shrink- wrapped version of a big one. You don't have a slightly smaller HR department. There isn't a smaller team of compliance people running around. It's often one person doing everything. And I wanted to make sure that was reflected, but also a chance for independent advocacy, where someone could see what was going on in the life of small- and- family businesses and fearlessly raise those issues or challenges with the government or regulators of the day. And that meant a policy and advocacy role, Sean. Trying to bring a spotlight on the actual plight of small business, as well as raising where things could be done better. But also an important assistance function. In the federal jurisdiction, Sean ... I'm sure the fear- and- greed audience would know, if you get into a legal (inaudible) that's covered by federal law, you're off to the federal court in most cases. Now, that's 300,000 bucks and may take three years for you to get your day in court. No small business can cope with that. And so, I wanted some way of resolving disputes quickly, in an amicable way, hopefully keeping those relationships together, so that people could get on with business. So, we do about 7, 000 matters a year, where we provide advice and guidance on how to resolve disputes involving a small business. And then, in many of those, we become a case manager and may recommend alternate dispute mediation. And just to close that loop, Sean, from our policy insights, the assistance work that the case studies that we're involved in ... We try and put out better practice advice to small- and- family businesses. Time poor, but maybe not knowing what the hazards are of engaging a search- engine optimization firm. They'll talk to you about doubling your revenue, but they'll actually sell you activity that may or may not result in that uplift in revenue. We'll put that kind of advice out there saying, " Before you do that, maybe have a bit of a think about this. Here's some way you can navigate a complex issue," or, " Here's some advice, whether it be about cyber security, accessing finance. What do you need to tell an insurance broker?" We'll put that sort of useful know- how and better practice advice out there. So, they're the three legs of our stool, Sean.

Look, great question. And it was born out of firsthand observation about where I thought there was some gaps in the way the Commonwealth, the federal government did its business. It became pretty obvious to me that a lot of government portfolios, departments and agencies do things in the name of, or do things to, small ans family business, without a really deep understanding of what that means. And really without grasping the simple fact that a small business isn't a shrink- wrapped version of a big one. You don't have a slightly smaller HR department. There isn't a smaller team of compliance people running around. It's often one person doing everything. And I wanted to make sure that was reflected, but also a chance for independent advocacy, where someone could see what was going on in the life of small- and- family businesses and fearlessly raise those issues or challenges with the government or regulators of the day. And that meant a policy and advocacy role, Sean. Trying to bring a spotlight on the actual plight of small business, as well as raising where things could be done better. But also an important assistance function. In the federal jurisdiction, Sean ... I'm sure the fear- and- greed audience would know, if you get into a legal (inaudible) that's covered by federal law, you're off to the federal court in most cases. Now, that's 300,000 bucks and may take three years for you to get your day in court. No small business can cope with that. And so, I wanted some way of resolving disputes quickly, in an amicable way, hopefully keeping those relationships together, so that people could get on with business. So, we do about 7, 000 matters a year, where we provide advice and guidance on how to resolve disputes involving a small business. And then, in many of those, we become a case manager and may recommend alternate dispute mediation. And just to close that loop, Sean, from our policy insights, the assistance work that the case studies that we're involved in ... We try and put out better practice advice to small- and- family businesses. Time poor, but maybe not knowing what the hazards are of engaging a search- engine optimization firm. They'll talk to you about doubling your revenue, but they'll actually sell you activity that may or may not result in that uplift in revenue. We'll put that kind of advice out there saying, " Before you do that, maybe have a bit of a think about this. Here's some way you can navigate a complex issue," or, " Here's some advice, whether it be about cyber security, accessing finance. What do you need to tell an insurance broker?" We'll put that sort of useful know- how and better practice advice out there. So, they're the three legs of our stool, Sean.

Okay. So, there's plenty in that. You must be across a lot of small businesses, family businesses. What's the state of play for them at the moment? They've been through COVID. We obviously have lots of cost- of- living pressures, inflation pressures, staff shortages, natural disasters, thinking for the rain going on in Melbourne, Tasmanian, New South Wales at the moment. Where's the sector up to? It must be exhausted almost.

Okay. So, there's plenty in that. You must be across a lot of small businesses, family businesses. What's the state of play for them at the moment? They've been through COVID. We obviously have lots of cost- of- living pressures, inflation pressures, staff shortages, natural disasters, thinking for the rain going on in Melbourne, Tasmanian, New South Wales at the moment. Where's the sector up to? It must be exhausted almost.

Yeah. Well, that's a word I often use, Sean, is that most small- and- family businesses are exhausted right now. Well, whilst they experienced during COVID and the period since, whilst the challenges that natural disasters, and we've had way too many of those, have been there and the ramifications are being worked through by small- and- family businesses. There's so much going on. And with some of those issues that you pointed to, a lack of available staff, skills challenges, supply chain blockages, even all the way through to getting paid in a respectable time, they've made business a tough business to be in. And the plight of small- and- family businesses with that shared experience, the outcomes have actually been extremely varied. A number of small- and- family businesses frankly have had a terrific pandemic. They've been in the line of work, they've provided goods and services that have delighted customers. Or frankly, Sean, as so many businesses are, they've solved problems that these new challenges have provided and have profited quite handsomely from it. Others have just hung on. Many who've who've done okay have pivoted. There's that word, but they've made adjustments to the way they do business and that's got them through. Others may have a weak pulse in their business, that the government support's been vital to keep them afloat. Now they're thinking about, what's next? And for some it's been absolutely punishing. Absolutely punishing. If you are a foot- traffic customer- facing business, if you need the suburban centers and the CBDs throbbing with humanity as you nab a couple of those people that go past your cafe, or your retail outlet, that foot traffic's not there. And if you're in the visitor economy, there hasn't been the visitor levels that have been there. The arts and entertainment area that's been particularly challenging. And, even for those that have been doing well and there's some delicious possibilities right in front of them, some supply chain and skill issues have actually held them back. And think about the building industry. I know so many builders that have flat- chat, but hardly making a profit at all cause of delays in getting certain stages of projects done, cost increases on key inputs and the difficulty getting trade. So, it's a really mixed picture.

Yeah. Well, that's a word I often use, Sean, is that most small- and- family businesses are exhausted right now. Well, whilst they experienced during COVID and the period since, whilst the challenges that natural disasters, and we've had way too many of those, have been there and the ramifications are being worked through by small- and- family businesses. There's so much going on. And with some of those issues that you pointed to, a lack of available staff, skills challenges, supply chain blockages, even all the way through to getting paid in a respectable time, they've made business a tough business to be in. And the plight of small- and- family businesses with that shared experience, the outcomes have actually been extremely varied. A number of small- and- family businesses frankly have had a terrific pandemic. They've been in the line of work, they've provided goods and services that have delighted customers. Or frankly, Sean, as so many businesses are, they've solved problems that these new challenges have provided and have profited quite handsomely from it. Others have just hung on. Many who've who've done okay have pivoted. There's that word, but they've made adjustments to the way they do business and that's got them through. Others may have a weak pulse in their business, that the government support's been vital to keep them afloat. Now they're thinking about, what's next? And for some it's been absolutely punishing. Absolutely punishing. If you are a foot- traffic customer- facing business, if you need the suburban centers and the CBDs throbbing with humanity as you nab a couple of those people that go past your cafe, or your retail outlet, that foot traffic's not there. And if you're in the visitor economy, there hasn't been the visitor levels that have been there. The arts and entertainment area that's been particularly challenging. And, even for those that have been doing well and there's some delicious possibilities right in front of them, some supply chain and skill issues have actually held them back. And think about the building industry. I know so many builders that have flat- chat, but hardly making a profit at all cause of delays in getting certain stages of projects done, cost increases on key inputs and the difficulty getting trade. So, it's a really mixed picture.

Stay with me, Bruce. We'll be back in a minute. My guest this morning is Bruce Billson, Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman. So, philosophically, do you think Australia gives small businesses a fair go? And this comes down to government, really, the rules and regulations around small business?

Stay with me, Bruce. We'll be back in a minute. My guest this morning is Bruce Billson, Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman. So, philosophically, do you think Australia gives small businesses a fair go? And this comes down to government, really, the rules and regulations around small business?

Look, I think the intention is there, Sean. Well, to coin a phrase that I often use, " Nice backswing. Where's the follow through?" So I think people are talking well about that. They recognize that a small business isn't a shrink- wrapped version of a big business. Yet, so often policy makers, program designers, regulators seem to imagine that a small business has all the bandwidth, all the diversity of skills, all the capacity to come up with some new expectation that government might have of them, when they're already so time poor. No one got into business for the back end of running the business. I know when my wife and I had our businesses and it was the greatest contraceptive ever invented. We'd be having a pillow talk of cash flow and basses and making sure we pay paid (inaudible) .

Look, I think the intention is there, Sean. Well, to coin a phrase that I often use, " Nice backswing. Where's the follow through?" So I think people are talking well about that. They recognize that a small business isn't a shrink- wrapped version of a big business. Yet, so often policy makers, program designers, regulators seem to imagine that a small business has all the bandwidth, all the diversity of skills, all the capacity to come up with some new expectation that government might have of them, when they're already so time poor. No one got into business for the back end of running the business. I know when my wife and I had our businesses and it was the greatest contraceptive ever invented. We'd be having a pillow talk of cash flow and basses and making sure we pay paid (inaudible) .

Lucky, Mrs. Billson!

Lucky, Mrs. Billson!

Oh look, living the dream, mate! Living the dream. But, it's an unrelenting thing. And most of those compliance obligations, small, family businesses do those after hours. And when they're also filling shifts that the staff aren't available for or someone's called in sick, or something like that, there are just constant demands. And I keep saying to people, we're not anti- regulation. Regulation has its place, but please, let's right size it, so it's relevant and it's genuinely commensurate with the risk you're trying to address. And it's the minimum effective imposition you're putting on extremely time- poor people to start with. So, I suppose that's one context around the compliance side. The other one I'd throw out there is, I'm not sure there's a deep enough appreciation of just how vital small- and- family businesses are, not only to the economy generally, but the uplift. You look at times like the GFC, small businesses was about just between four and five of every 10 private sector employees. Yet the new jobs that came out the other side of the GFC, two out of three were coming from those small businesses. So, they're drivers, they're innovators, they're producing new ways of delighting customers and new ways of creating wealth and opportunity. I reckon that means they should have the wind in their sails, not the wind in their face. And that's often the challenge that we tackle. Just trying to make sure they get a fair go to thrive and prosper.

Oh look, living the dream, mate! Living the dream. But, it's an unrelenting thing. And most of those compliance obligations, small, family businesses do those after hours. And when they're also filling shifts that the staff aren't available for or someone's called in sick, or something like that, there are just constant demands. And I keep saying to people, we're not anti- regulation. Regulation has its place, but please, let's right size it, so it's relevant and it's genuinely commensurate with the risk you're trying to address. And it's the minimum effective imposition you're putting on extremely time- poor people to start with. So, I suppose that's one context around the compliance side. The other one I'd throw out there is, I'm not sure there's a deep enough appreciation of just how vital small- and- family businesses are, not only to the economy generally, but the uplift. You look at times like the GFC, small businesses was about just between four and five of every 10 private sector employees. Yet the new jobs that came out the other side of the GFC, two out of three were coming from those small businesses. So, they're drivers, they're innovators, they're producing new ways of delighting customers and new ways of creating wealth and opportunity. I reckon that means they should have the wind in their sails, not the wind in their face. And that's often the challenge that we tackle. Just trying to make sure they get a fair go to thrive and prosper.

I just want to ask about cyber, because I'm sure that the Optus hack recently, Woolworth's earlier this week. It must worry small businesses, because many wouldn't know what to do, I presume?

I just want to ask about cyber, because I'm sure that the Optus hack recently, Woolworth's earlier this week. It must worry small businesses, because many wouldn't know what to do, I presume?

Yeah. And look, they're on edge. And, frankly, all the research is telling us that small- and- family businesses are a bit of a preferred target for some of the scammers and for some of the cyber crims. But, the most prominent thing that's happening is a cyber criminal will tap into a small business's email system. They'll see invoicing that's going out from the small business. In some cases they'll intervene, and this is called an invoice scam. They'll intervene, they'll put some other bank account details in, other than the business itself, and then shoot that over to an unsuspecting customer, who's expecting the bill from there. They'll probably know what the number is that they need to pay, and when it arrives they think, " Okay. Let's just settle that account," and they'll go and punch in those adulterated bank details. And all of a sudden some joker on the other side of the world's getting some hard- earned that's come out of a customer wanting to do the right thing by Australian small business. So, that's the most common attack on small businesses. Then the next one of those phishing scams, where you get an email that kind of looks like it's okay, Sean. But, what sits within it is an entree into your technology that then sees people messing with your digital infrastructure, or in some cases, demanding a payment for you to access your own information. So, it's a real issue. I'd say it's a BAU, a business- as- usual issue for small business. But not all feel well- equipped to tackle it. And I think part of that's because often we hear about these mega, mega cyber strikes on big companies and think, " My goodness! They're sophisticated. How would I ever combat that?" But there are things a small business can do. Simple, multifactor authentication. Having sophisticated passwords or pass phrases. Making sure not everybody's got full access to all parts of your technology. Thinking twice about those emails that look kind of dodgy, but kind of okay. I mean you're probably too young, Sean, but I'd say listen to your spidey senses. If it looks kind of weird, there's a fair chance it is in this world. And then, get training that's needed to make sure you got timely backups, so if someone does take your system down, you can stand it up again, when it was the last time it was healthy. And also, think deeply about training your staff to be alert to these things. The data, it's about nine to 10 grand is the actual cost on average for a cyber strike on a small business. And that's from the cyber security center out of Canberra. But, worryingly, there's a significant number, Sean, that never come back. They just don't pay the money. Their systems are compromised. Or moreover their customers, who were trusting them with customer information might think, " Just not sure about these folks now. I might not continue to trade with them." So it is a big issue, but there are things within the gift of small business that they can do, and I strongly encourage people to turn their mind to that.

Yeah. And look, they're on edge. And, frankly, all the research is telling us that small- and- family businesses are a bit of a preferred target for some of the scammers and for some of the cyber crims. But, the most prominent thing that's happening is a cyber criminal will tap into a small business's email system. They'll see invoicing that's going out from the small business. In some cases they'll intervene, and this is called an invoice scam. They'll intervene, they'll put some other bank account details in, other than the business itself, and then shoot that over to an unsuspecting customer, who's expecting the bill from there. They'll probably know what the number is that they need to pay, and when it arrives they think, " Okay. Let's just settle that account," and they'll go and punch in those adulterated bank details. And all of a sudden some joker on the other side of the world's getting some hard- earned that's come out of a customer wanting to do the right thing by Australian small business. So, that's the most common attack on small businesses. Then the next one of those phishing scams, where you get an email that kind of looks like it's okay, Sean. But, what sits within it is an entree into your technology that then sees people messing with your digital infrastructure, or in some cases, demanding a payment for you to access your own information. So, it's a real issue. I'd say it's a BAU, a business- as- usual issue for small business. But not all feel well- equipped to tackle it. And I think part of that's because often we hear about these mega, mega cyber strikes on big companies and think, " My goodness! They're sophisticated. How would I ever combat that?" But there are things a small business can do. Simple, multifactor authentication. Having sophisticated passwords or pass phrases. Making sure not everybody's got full access to all parts of your technology. Thinking twice about those emails that look kind of dodgy, but kind of okay. I mean you're probably too young, Sean, but I'd say listen to your spidey senses. If it looks kind of weird, there's a fair chance it is in this world. And then, get training that's needed to make sure you got timely backups, so if someone does take your system down, you can stand it up again, when it was the last time it was healthy. And also, think deeply about training your staff to be alert to these things. The data, it's about nine to 10 grand is the actual cost on average for a cyber strike on a small business. And that's from the cyber security center out of Canberra. But, worryingly, there's a significant number, Sean, that never come back. They just don't pay the money. Their systems are compromised. Or moreover their customers, who were trusting them with customer information might think, " Just not sure about these folks now. I might not continue to trade with them." So it is a big issue, but there are things within the gift of small business that they can do, and I strongly encourage people to turn their mind to that.

Well Bruce, good luck with the role. Thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

Well Bruce, good luck with the role. Thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

Great to be with you.

Great to be with you.

That was Bruce Billson, Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman. This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.

That was Bruce Billson, Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman. This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.