Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. We've spoken before about Dyson, the company that began with one man and a vacuum cleaner and has become a leader in innovation. Today, I wanted to talk to one of those people who are actually hands- on during the innovation process. James Shale is the Service Manager for Australia and New Zealand and a longtime engineer at Dyson, which is a supporter of this podcast. James, welcome to Fear and Greed.

Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. We've spoken before about Dyson, the company that began with one man and a vacuum cleaner and has become a leader in innovation. Today, I wanted to talk to one of those people who are actually hands- on during the innovation process. James Shale is the Service Manager for Australia and New Zealand and a longtime engineer at Dyson, which is a supporter of this podcast. James, welcome to Fear and Greed.

Thanks very much for having me.

Thanks very much for having me.

What's it like to be an engineer at Dyson, particularly because expectations are so high?

What's it like to be an engineer at Dyson, particularly because expectations are so high?

It's very exciting. I mean, I think the UK has a really strong background for engineering, but certainly for a lot of people that studied with me in my university, it was a really aspirational company to work for. But the word I would choose to use would be unique. I think by having a singular owner that is so passionate about engineering, design, and development, it creates this unique environment in which engineers can play, would be how I'd describe it.

It's very exciting. I mean, I think the UK has a really strong background for engineering, but certainly for a lot of people that studied with me in my university, it was a really aspirational company to work for. But the word I would choose to use would be unique. I think by having a singular owner that is so passionate about engineering, design, and development, it creates this unique environment in which engineers can play, would be how I'd describe it.

Okay. What sort of engineer are you?

Okay. What sort of engineer are you?

I studied mechanical engineering and majored in design.

I studied mechanical engineering and majored in design.

Okay. You can play, as an engineer, you can play. That must be a very different culture than most engineering- obsessed organizations.

Okay. You can play, as an engineer, you can play. That must be a very different culture than most engineering- obsessed organizations.

Absolutely. I think in most organizations, there's obviously an engineering department that's given some wiggle room to innovate and play with technology. But at Dyson, you've got 14, 000 technical individuals ranging from microbiologists to scientists, to mechanical engineers to designers, and we're not just looking to kind of push a product through the pipeline. You have people working on technologies that are maybe 20 years in advance of the market. You have people doing scientific experiments and trying to create new processes or just discover new ways of doing things. And then obviously, as you go further down the engineering pipeline, you've got people who are actually trying to integrate that into a product and get that product to market.

Absolutely. I think in most organizations, there's obviously an engineering department that's given some wiggle room to innovate and play with technology. But at Dyson, you've got 14, 000 technical individuals ranging from microbiologists to scientists, to mechanical engineers to designers, and we're not just looking to kind of push a product through the pipeline. You have people working on technologies that are maybe 20 years in advance of the market. You have people doing scientific experiments and trying to create new processes or just discover new ways of doing things. And then obviously, as you go further down the engineering pipeline, you've got people who are actually trying to integrate that into a product and get that product to market.

Okay. I mean, it sounds like you've got a lot of freedom. I mean, there must be some constraints, obviously, but it sounds like you've got a fair bit of freedom.

Okay. I mean, it sounds like you've got a lot of freedom. I mean, there must be some constraints, obviously, but it sounds like you've got a fair bit of freedom.

Yeah, well, I think the ethos of the company is to really invest in engineering. It's a passion. I mean, we even have a integrated university at our UK site, and you look at things beyond the company, that you've got the James Dyson Award, which basically goes around the world trying to encourage people to innovate and then rewards and helps really fantastic ideas from around the world. So that very much is the culture that we have. Obviously, there is a business to run as well, but I think that's possibly what differentiates it from being an engineering employee compared to other similar companies.

Yeah, well, I think the ethos of the company is to really invest in engineering. It's a passion. I mean, we even have a integrated university at our UK site, and you look at things beyond the company, that you've got the James Dyson Award, which basically goes around the world trying to encourage people to innovate and then rewards and helps really fantastic ideas from around the world. So that very much is the culture that we have. Obviously, there is a business to run as well, but I think that's possibly what differentiates it from being an engineering employee compared to other similar companies.

Okay. So, how does the design process actually work? Does it start with market research? For example, we know there's demand out there for air purification, I'm talking a few years back, and then it heads to the engineers to see what might happen, is that kind of how it works?

Okay. So, how does the design process actually work? Does it start with market research? For example, we know there's demand out there for air purification, I'm talking a few years back, and then it heads to the engineers to see what might happen, is that kind of how it works?

I guess there's the playground element, where individuals will just be kind of experimenting with things. So an anecdote is, a friend of mine that I used to play badminton with in the UK was actually just playing around with silver compounds to try and see what particles they could remove. Worked out after a year or two that a particular catalytic material with silver alloy it was really great for removing formaldehyde, and then several years down the line, we integrated that onto a product. But some of the innovations just come from people experimenting. I know the Airblade basically came from someone playing with a motor and an aperture of air, and had some water on their desk and realized that it was actually a phenomenal solution. So there's very much the kind of scientific cutting- edge element to the RBD, but then there's also kind of looking at our existing technologies and working out how we can do it better.

I guess there's the playground element, where individuals will just be kind of experimenting with things. So an anecdote is, a friend of mine that I used to play badminton with in the UK was actually just playing around with silver compounds to try and see what particles they could remove. Worked out after a year or two that a particular catalytic material with silver alloy it was really great for removing formaldehyde, and then several years down the line, we integrated that onto a product. But some of the innovations just come from people experimenting. I know the Airblade basically came from someone playing with a motor and an aperture of air, and had some water on their desk and realized that it was actually a phenomenal solution. So there's very much the kind of scientific cutting- edge element to the RBD, but then there's also kind of looking at our existing technologies and working out how we can do it better.

Stay with me, James. We'll be back in a minute. My guest this morning is James Shale, Service Manager for Australia and New Zealand and a longtime engineer with Dyson. So, how many prototypes do you go through when you're testing or refining a product? I mean, I remember reading somewhere that the original Dyson vacuum cleaner went through thousands of iterations. What about when you're testing and refining products? I mean, there must be plenty of testing going on and refinement going on?

Stay with me, James. We'll be back in a minute. My guest this morning is James Shale, Service Manager for Australia and New Zealand and a longtime engineer with Dyson. So, how many prototypes do you go through when you're testing or refining a product? I mean, I remember reading somewhere that the original Dyson vacuum cleaner went through thousands of iterations. What about when you're testing and refining products? I mean, there must be plenty of testing going on and refinement going on?

Yeah, absolutely. I think we've tried to come a long way, so that we don't need over 5, 000 prototypes per model these days. But with a company of this scale, and it's not just about creating something that works really well and has a really good performance spec, you also want to go through iterations so you can check that when it's in field, it's going to be really, really reliable. And good design comes from exploring as many concepts as possible and settling on the best one. So yeah, that's still very much a part of the philosophy. It's okay to fail, it's okay to try something and not succeed, but you learn the lesson and then you move to another approach.

Yeah, absolutely. I think we've tried to come a long way, so that we don't need over 5, 000 prototypes per model these days. But with a company of this scale, and it's not just about creating something that works really well and has a really good performance spec, you also want to go through iterations so you can check that when it's in field, it's going to be really, really reliable. And good design comes from exploring as many concepts as possible and settling on the best one. So yeah, that's still very much a part of the philosophy. It's okay to fail, it's okay to try something and not succeed, but you learn the lesson and then you move to another approach.

It's funny, design I think for we outsiders who don't think about design all the time, design kind of has a critical path in an economy, doesn't it? I mean, great design actually makes an economy work a hell of a lot better. Be it a manufacturing outlet, Dyson, a technology company, design is something that I think that most of we mere mortals don't think much about.

It's funny, design I think for we outsiders who don't think about design all the time, design kind of has a critical path in an economy, doesn't it? I mean, great design actually makes an economy work a hell of a lot better. Be it a manufacturing outlet, Dyson, a technology company, design is something that I think that most of we mere mortals don't think much about.

I think everyone does in their life. Humans are always looking to optimize and make things better. That might be efficient, that might be more pleasurable, that might be more functional, but I think in a sense, all humans are innovators and designers. It can be with processes, it can be with lifestyle. I think it's an inherently human trait. I guess where engineers are a little bit different is they're really kind of in the physical mechanical elements, and also in the software elements, trying to do that.

I think everyone does in their life. Humans are always looking to optimize and make things better. That might be efficient, that might be more pleasurable, that might be more functional, but I think in a sense, all humans are innovators and designers. It can be with processes, it can be with lifestyle. I think it's an inherently human trait. I guess where engineers are a little bit different is they're really kind of in the physical mechanical elements, and also in the software elements, trying to do that.

Okay. So how far are you working ahead? Are you working on products now that we won't see for another five or 10 years?

Okay. So how far are you working ahead? Are you working on products now that we won't see for another five or 10 years?

Absolutely. It's about solving problems, and sometimes in life, the technology isn't where you need it to be. So we're trying to pioneer scientific principles, new ways of doing things, particularly at the minute, the thing that I can share that the company's really doubling down on would be connectivity and robotics and automation. We definitely see that as the future. I think machine learning is another really, really interesting space where Dyson wants to innovate in. So we've got a process that starts in the UK in a building called MPI, which is kind of our real blue- sky thinking, and then we develop that and eventually the design transfers to Singapore, where we get our best concepts and best ideas that solve problems in the best way through to production, and then after production, through to the markets so our owners around the world can enjoy that technology.

Absolutely. It's about solving problems, and sometimes in life, the technology isn't where you need it to be. So we're trying to pioneer scientific principles, new ways of doing things, particularly at the minute, the thing that I can share that the company's really doubling down on would be connectivity and robotics and automation. We definitely see that as the future. I think machine learning is another really, really interesting space where Dyson wants to innovate in. So we've got a process that starts in the UK in a building called MPI, which is kind of our real blue- sky thinking, and then we develop that and eventually the design transfers to Singapore, where we get our best concepts and best ideas that solve problems in the best way through to production, and then after production, through to the markets so our owners around the world can enjoy that technology.

So, when you're talking about machine learning then, are you talking about future products that will have AI incorporated in them? Things that we would understand? I mean, we talk about vacuum cleaners and air purifiers and things like that from Dyson, but it's products like that which actually are just a lot smarter, or are we talking about a whole new subset of products?

So, when you're talking about machine learning then, are you talking about future products that will have AI incorporated in them? Things that we would understand? I mean, we talk about vacuum cleaners and air purifiers and things like that from Dyson, but it's products like that which actually are just a lot smarter, or are we talking about a whole new subset of products?

Yeah, well, I think you use the tools available to you. So, sometimes we take scientific principles and technology that already exists and integrate it into our products, but generally we're trying to be first. I think in this new world, we've seen the rise of apps and how powerful they can be, and that connected environment opens up so many more possibilities. If you think about control and access, or even just doing things better, the connected world gives us a pool of resource which enables better decision making.

Yeah, well, I think you use the tools available to you. So, sometimes we take scientific principles and technology that already exists and integrate it into our products, but generally we're trying to be first. I think in this new world, we've seen the rise of apps and how powerful they can be, and that connected environment opens up so many more possibilities. If you think about control and access, or even just doing things better, the connected world gives us a pool of resource which enables better decision making.

Yeah, okay. I just want to ask you about the air purifier, which in a sense is kind of, everyone understands what it does, but how do they actually work? Because it's such a big issue right now for most of us.

Yeah, okay. I just want to ask you about the air purifier, which in a sense is kind of, everyone understands what it does, but how do they actually work? Because it's such a big issue right now for most of us.

Absolutely, and I think actually before Dyson really entered this space, air quality wasn't something that people were overly conscious of. There were certain countries around the world that were very conscious because of their air pollution levels, you have asthma sufferers or people who have allergies to pollen who were very sensitive about what was in the air, but Dyson's really kind of had to highlight the problems in that space. So, what we do with our technology is we have a fan that spins at the center of the product and that draws air in, and our current machine has a three- layer filter. So on the outside you're going to have a lot of glass, HEPA material, glass cloth, and that's going to take away all the particulate matter. We've actually got it so, kind of refined now, we can take out particles as small as 0. 1 microns. And what does that mean? Well, if I put it into context, the human blood cell is 0. 4 microns. After you go past that layer, we've got a filter that incorporates granulated carbon, and that's going to be fantastic for removing gases and volatile organic compounds from the air. So particularly in home, nitrogen dioxide that comes off the car for people that have garages in the house, is a very harmful substance. And the latest technology, which was pioneered by a good friend of mine who I alluded to earlier, is a catalytic filter. And this filter's actually a lifetime filter and it's capable of taking formaldehyde particles, which we know are present in homes from our research, and actually breaking them down into harmless particles like water vapor and carbon dioxide. So yeah, we've really made a lot of innovations in this space and engineered them into an all- in- one product.

Absolutely, and I think actually before Dyson really entered this space, air quality wasn't something that people were overly conscious of. There were certain countries around the world that were very conscious because of their air pollution levels, you have asthma sufferers or people who have allergies to pollen who were very sensitive about what was in the air, but Dyson's really kind of had to highlight the problems in that space. So, what we do with our technology is we have a fan that spins at the center of the product and that draws air in, and our current machine has a three- layer filter. So on the outside you're going to have a lot of glass, HEPA material, glass cloth, and that's going to take away all the particulate matter. We've actually got it so, kind of refined now, we can take out particles as small as 0. 1 microns. And what does that mean? Well, if I put it into context, the human blood cell is 0. 4 microns. After you go past that layer, we've got a filter that incorporates granulated carbon, and that's going to be fantastic for removing gases and volatile organic compounds from the air. So particularly in home, nitrogen dioxide that comes off the car for people that have garages in the house, is a very harmful substance. And the latest technology, which was pioneered by a good friend of mine who I alluded to earlier, is a catalytic filter. And this filter's actually a lifetime filter and it's capable of taking formaldehyde particles, which we know are present in homes from our research, and actually breaking them down into harmless particles like water vapor and carbon dioxide. So yeah, we've really made a lot of innovations in this space and engineered them into an all- in- one product.

Wow, and I mean, presumably people with allergies in that could have a whole different lifestyle as a result?

Wow, and I mean, presumably people with allergies in that could have a whole different lifestyle as a result?

Oh yeah. I mean, I think in Japan there's a particular type of tree that emits pollen, and what was quite amazing was to be able to put that technology in friends' homes that really suffered from it, and really got some severe symptoms and found that whole month where the pollen levels from the trees was worse, and actually take that problem away from them and allow them to have their home as this kind of safe relaxing space again, was really quite satisfying. I spent a lot of time working on the EC category. EC stands for environmental control, so to actually see it from the earliest design concept to actually making a real- world difference to friends and loved ones was a really satisfying journey, I'd say.

Oh yeah. I mean, I think in Japan there's a particular type of tree that emits pollen, and what was quite amazing was to be able to put that technology in friends' homes that really suffered from it, and really got some severe symptoms and found that whole month where the pollen levels from the trees was worse, and actually take that problem away from them and allow them to have their home as this kind of safe relaxing space again, was really quite satisfying. I spent a lot of time working on the EC category. EC stands for environmental control, so to actually see it from the earliest design concept to actually making a real- world difference to friends and loved ones was a really satisfying journey, I'd say.

James, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

James, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for having me.

That was James Shale, Service Manager for Australia and New Zealand and a longtime engineer at Dyson, which is a supporter of this podcast. This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.

That was James Shale, Service Manager for Australia and New Zealand and a longtime engineer at Dyson, which is a supporter of this podcast. This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.