Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. It's a great time to be looking for a job, with unemployment at its lowest level in decades. But on the flip side, if you are running a business, you are grappling with huge competition for workers, COVID isolation requirements, and a lack of foreign workers. So what's the solution to easing the pressure on businesses? Paul Nicolaou is the Executive Director of Business Sydney. Paul, welcome to Fear and Greed.

Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. It's a great time to be looking for a job, with unemployment at its lowest level in decades. But on the flip side, if you are running a business, you are grappling with huge competition for workers, COVID isolation requirements, and a lack of foreign workers. So what's the solution to easing the pressure on businesses? Paul Nicolaou is the Executive Director of Business Sydney. Paul, welcome to Fear and Greed.

Good morning, Sean and well done to you and your team on a great podcast. I love it, and I know many of my friends and colleagues listen to it all the time.

Good morning, Sean and well done to you and your team on a great podcast. I love it, and I know many of my friends and colleagues listen to it all the time.

Thank you, Paul. Thank you. You might be the Executive Director of Business Sydney, but this is really a challenge for businesses right across the country, isn't it?

Thank you, Paul. Thank you. You might be the Executive Director of Business Sydney, but this is really a challenge for businesses right across the country, isn't it?

That's correct, Sean, right across the country, businesses, whether it's in hospitality, tourism, retail, health, they're all struggling to find staff. Since the pandemic, the borders were closed and we've had no overseas students coming in. We've had no backpackers coming in, and there isn't enough workers to do all the jobs that are required across the country.

That's correct, Sean, right across the country, businesses, whether it's in hospitality, tourism, retail, health, they're all struggling to find staff. Since the pandemic, the borders were closed and we've had no overseas students coming in. We've had no backpackers coming in, and there isn't enough workers to do all the jobs that are required across the country.

Okay. So let's dive into it a little bit and take hospitality perhaps as a guide. How hard is it for the hospitality sector to find workers at the moment?

Okay. So let's dive into it a little bit and take hospitality perhaps as a guide. How hard is it for the hospitality sector to find workers at the moment?

Well, look, it's very difficult. Lots of pubs, clubs and restaurants are all looking for staff. You can go to many of these establishments at any time and you'll find that they've got restricted hours and restricted facilities because they just haven't got it. I mean, 50% of the hotels in the city alone are only operating at a 50% rate because they just can't get the staff, and they can't open all the rooms because they haven't got enough people to prepare the rooms, clean the rooms. A lot of the restaurants are only open on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, because they can't find the staff to do the work that they need. So they keep their facilities open for a short period of time. We've had no backpackers coming in. All the backpackers at the moment are overseas in either Santorini, Mykonos or in Barcelona, because it's their summer. At the present moment, they're not going to come to Australia because we're going into our winter.

Well, look, it's very difficult. Lots of pubs, clubs and restaurants are all looking for staff. You can go to many of these establishments at any time and you'll find that they've got restricted hours and restricted facilities because they just haven't got it. I mean, 50% of the hotels in the city alone are only operating at a 50% rate because they just can't get the staff, and they can't open all the rooms because they haven't got enough people to prepare the rooms, clean the rooms. A lot of the restaurants are only open on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, because they can't find the staff to do the work that they need. So they keep their facilities open for a short period of time. We've had no backpackers coming in. All the backpackers at the moment are overseas in either Santorini, Mykonos or in Barcelona, because it's their summer. At the present moment, they're not going to come to Australia because we're going into our winter.

Okay. So at the end of the day, this just drags on the economy substantially, I'd imagine.

Okay. So at the end of the day, this just drags on the economy substantially, I'd imagine.

Oh huge. I mean a lot of businesses can't grow. They can't even keep their doors open. I was just listening recently to a couple of businesses in the trucking industry. And this company has many trucks. They can't get them out on the roads to deliver white goods because they can't get drivers. It's a big issue. And if we don't deal with it, a lot of businesses will suffer and the economy will start to also falter at the same time.

Oh huge. I mean a lot of businesses can't grow. They can't even keep their doors open. I was just listening recently to a couple of businesses in the trucking industry. And this company has many trucks. They can't get them out on the roads to deliver white goods because they can't get drivers. It's a big issue. And if we don't deal with it, a lot of businesses will suffer and the economy will start to also falter at the same time.

Okay. So how do we deal with it? And this is where you come in.

Okay. So how do we deal with it? And this is where you come in.

Well, there's three things that we could do, and we've been calling on the federal government prior to the election, and to the opposition. And hopefully the new government may consider this. One way to do this is to reduce or remove the threshold for pensioners. At the moment, if you're a pensioner and you want to work, you're only allowed to earn $ 300 per fortnight above your pension. Which means that if you earn more than that, then 50 cents in every dollar you receive, you'll lose in your pension. That's a disincentive. There are two million pensioners out there of which, let's say, half of them want to work and earn a little bit more money so they can go on a trip, they can buy presents for their loved ones. They're keen. And a lot of them, if they're available, would be great people to work as baristas, as mentors, to help in cleaning apartments or cleaning rooms for hotels, or to be the waiter all to serve people that need servicing in that respect.

Well, there's three things that we could do, and we've been calling on the federal government prior to the election, and to the opposition. And hopefully the new government may consider this. One way to do this is to reduce or remove the threshold for pensioners. At the moment, if you're a pensioner and you want to work, you're only allowed to earn $ 300 per fortnight above your pension. Which means that if you earn more than that, then 50 cents in every dollar you receive, you'll lose in your pension. That's a disincentive. There are two million pensioners out there of which, let's say, half of them want to work and earn a little bit more money so they can go on a trip, they can buy presents for their loved ones. They're keen. And a lot of them, if they're available, would be great people to work as baristas, as mentors, to help in cleaning apartments or cleaning rooms for hotels, or to be the waiter all to serve people that need servicing in that respect.

Have you had much success in terms of getting a response out of the former government or this government while they're in opposition? Where's it up to?

Have you had much success in terms of getting a response out of the former government or this government while they're in opposition? Where's it up to?

Well, it's been considered, but no one's willing to make the call and we are hoping that the new government will see that. I've already spoken to the shadow treasurer at the time, Jim Chalmers, and also spoke to the treasurer at the time, Josh Frydenberg. Both all said it's a great idea, but found it very difficult to implement. I just think it's a no brainer. I think it can be done with the stroke of a pen and we can see a lot more people come back into the workforce and help deal with these staff shortages.

Well, it's been considered, but no one's willing to make the call and we are hoping that the new government will see that. I've already spoken to the shadow treasurer at the time, Jim Chalmers, and also spoke to the treasurer at the time, Josh Frydenberg. Both all said it's a great idea, but found it very difficult to implement. I just think it's a no brainer. I think it can be done with the stroke of a pen and we can see a lot more people come back into the workforce and help deal with these staff shortages.

Okay. Has it been done overseas? What percentage of Australia's older Australians work, vis- a- vis other economies?

Okay. Has it been done overseas? What percentage of Australia's older Australians work, vis- a- vis other economies?

Well, New Zealand, for example, don't have this restriction in play. If you're a pension in New Zealand, you can earn the pension and you can work as many hours as you want. It's important for pensioners too, because from a mental health perspective, they would prefer to be working and doing active things rather than being stuck at home or being at a club and putting money into the poke machine. We've got to look at incentivizing the community, and one way of incentivizing the pensioners and the community is by allowing them to work as many hours as they want and earn as much money as they want.

Well, New Zealand, for example, don't have this restriction in play. If you're a pension in New Zealand, you can earn the pension and you can work as many hours as you want. It's important for pensioners too, because from a mental health perspective, they would prefer to be working and doing active things rather than being stuck at home or being at a club and putting money into the poke machine. We've got to look at incentivizing the community, and one way of incentivizing the pensioners and the community is by allowing them to work as many hours as they want and earn as much money as they want.

Yeah. I'm just trying to get my head around this. I understand that you'd need a cap, right? So you don't want someone earning $ 500,000 getting the pension. But surely someone could earn $ 50,000 and still get the pension, assuming they are over a certain age and they're choosing to do that, to contribute back to the labor force.

Yeah. I'm just trying to get my head around this. I understand that you'd need a cap, right? So you don't want someone earning $ 500,000 getting the pension. But surely someone could earn $ 50,000 and still get the pension, assuming they are over a certain age and they're choosing to do that, to contribute back to the labor force.

Oh totally. They're not going to be earning that amount of money.

Oh totally. They're not going to be earning that amount of money.

No, no.

No, no.

They're going to be earning small amounts of money, but enough money for them to buy extra, present, go to a club, to a restaurant or even go overseas for a trip. If you're on a pension, you haven't got much money. You probably might have an asset being a home, but you might not have cash in the bank. So therefore, anything that we can incentivize them would be great for themselves, both from a mental perspective and from a financial perspective. Then from a global perspective, it would mean that there's a extra pool of workers out there that could go out and fill the jobs that are needed.

They're going to be earning small amounts of money, but enough money for them to buy extra, present, go to a club, to a restaurant or even go overseas for a trip. If you're on a pension, you haven't got much money. You probably might have an asset being a home, but you might not have cash in the bank. So therefore, anything that we can incentivize them would be great for themselves, both from a mental perspective and from a financial perspective. Then from a global perspective, it would mean that there's a extra pool of workers out there that could go out and fill the jobs that are needed.

Okay. So what sectors do you think they'd be best in?

Okay. So what sectors do you think they'd be best in?

Oh look, hospitality, tourism, retail. The three sectors have suffered badly as a result of COVID and the lockdowns. Anything we can do to assist those sectors would be greatly appreciated. But as I said to you before, there's the trucking industry. There'd be a lot of people who can still drive a vehicle. So we are not talking about onerous tasks like digging holes or doing things that need a lot of physical work. A lot of work could be clerical work. A lot of pensioners would love to be mentors for our future business leaders. Anything we can do to incentivize them would be great for the community and great for themselves.

Oh look, hospitality, tourism, retail. The three sectors have suffered badly as a result of COVID and the lockdowns. Anything we can do to assist those sectors would be greatly appreciated. But as I said to you before, there's the trucking industry. There'd be a lot of people who can still drive a vehicle. So we are not talking about onerous tasks like digging holes or doing things that need a lot of physical work. A lot of work could be clerical work. A lot of pensioners would love to be mentors for our future business leaders. Anything we can do to incentivize them would be great for the community and great for themselves.

Stay with me, Paul. We'll be back in a minute. My guest today is Paul Nicolaou, Executive Director of Business Sydney. So looking beyond pensioners in terms of boosting the workforce, you've also suggested tax offsets for full- time workers who take on a second part- time job. How would that work?

Stay with me, Paul. We'll be back in a minute. My guest today is Paul Nicolaou, Executive Director of Business Sydney. So looking beyond pensioners in terms of boosting the workforce, you've also suggested tax offsets for full- time workers who take on a second part- time job. How would that work?

Well, there are a lot of people out there who do want to work on the weekends. If they work during the week, they want to work on a Saturday, Sunday. But there's no incentive to because any extra hours of work that they do, they've got to pay more tax. So we are calling on the federal government and the federal opposition to see this from a bipartisan approach, that we should allow those doing a second job to pay less in tax, maybe half in tax, so there's that extra incentive. The more we can incentivize the community, the better off we are.

Well, there are a lot of people out there who do want to work on the weekends. If they work during the week, they want to work on a Saturday, Sunday. But there's no incentive to because any extra hours of work that they do, they've got to pay more tax. So we are calling on the federal government and the federal opposition to see this from a bipartisan approach, that we should allow those doing a second job to pay less in tax, maybe half in tax, so there's that extra incentive. The more we can incentivize the community, the better off we are.

Another idea I just had, and I have no idea whether this will carry water at all, but if you are a full- time worker over the age of 65 or 67, do you get any tax benefit for working beyond retirement age?

Another idea I just had, and I have no idea whether this will carry water at all, but if you are a full- time worker over the age of 65 or 67, do you get any tax benefit for working beyond retirement age?

I'm not sure on that, but that's not a bad one to follow up. I think it's worth pursuing. Anything we can do to encourage people, incentivize people. I think the process of a carrot and stick might be the way to go if we want to get more people back into the workplace. Because at the moment there's no incentive to do so. You work, and I think everyone is willing to work and pay their taxes, the appropriate taxes, but we need to get people back into the economy because we are struggling to find and fill those jobs. Another thing that we could do, Sean, and this might be controversial, but remove the mandating of vaccines. At the moment, people who are not vaccinated can work and there are massive shortages in our schools and in our hospitals. And maybe what we need to do is now allow it up to the person themselves and also the industry to work out what is safe for prospective workplaces, because there's still a pool of people out there who haven't been vaccinated, who aren't working because they can't work due to vaccine mandating.

I'm not sure on that, but that's not a bad one to follow up. I think it's worth pursuing. Anything we can do to encourage people, incentivize people. I think the process of a carrot and stick might be the way to go if we want to get more people back into the workplace. Because at the moment there's no incentive to do so. You work, and I think everyone is willing to work and pay their taxes, the appropriate taxes, but we need to get people back into the economy because we are struggling to find and fill those jobs. Another thing that we could do, Sean, and this might be controversial, but remove the mandating of vaccines. At the moment, people who are not vaccinated can work and there are massive shortages in our schools and in our hospitals. And maybe what we need to do is now allow it up to the person themselves and also the industry to work out what is safe for prospective workplaces, because there's still a pool of people out there who haven't been vaccinated, who aren't working because they can't work due to vaccine mandating.

Do you think that eventually these sorts of things will have to be adopted simply because we just don't have the workforce? And we won't for the next five years, unless we get massive migration and even then, I don't think we're going to have the workforce.

Do you think that eventually these sorts of things will have to be adopted simply because we just don't have the workforce? And we won't for the next five years, unless we get massive migration and even then, I don't think we're going to have the workforce.

Well, that's exactly right. We're not going to get massive migration. Both parties said that they weren't going to have massive amounts of migrants coming in. And there are a lot of countries who are in the same boat as we are. The fact is we, you look at overseas students. We're not going to get a whole group of overseas students until next year because why? They've all been going to United States, the UK and in America, because their universities are open here. We hadn't opened up our universities until recently. So that cohort of people won't be coming in until the end of the year. Same applies with our backpackers. We're not going to get backpackers coming into Australia until the end of the year. So we are going to be desperate for staff, and anything we can do now will help solve this issue going into the end of the year, into the next financial year.

Well, that's exactly right. We're not going to get massive migration. Both parties said that they weren't going to have massive amounts of migrants coming in. And there are a lot of countries who are in the same boat as we are. The fact is we, you look at overseas students. We're not going to get a whole group of overseas students until next year because why? They've all been going to United States, the UK and in America, because their universities are open here. We hadn't opened up our universities until recently. So that cohort of people won't be coming in until the end of the year. Same applies with our backpackers. We're not going to get backpackers coming into Australia until the end of the year. So we are going to be desperate for staff, and anything we can do now will help solve this issue going into the end of the year, into the next financial year.

Wouldn't it be nice, Paul, to eventually get back to normal?

Wouldn't it be nice, Paul, to eventually get back to normal?

Yeah. Looking forward to it. I think everyone is looking forward to it. But we've got to look at our history and see how we've managed this whole crisis and see how we can ensure that this doesn't happen again. It was all a learning curve for everyone and there wasn't any rule books or how- to kits. I think the government needs to have an inquiry as to how this whole thing was managed, not to apportion blame, but to work out what we can do to ensure that the next time a pandemic of this stature comes into play. We've got the processes and the way to deal with it, rather than just haphazardly doing what we think is right and what we think is wrong.

Yeah. Looking forward to it. I think everyone is looking forward to it. But we've got to look at our history and see how we've managed this whole crisis and see how we can ensure that this doesn't happen again. It was all a learning curve for everyone and there wasn't any rule books or how- to kits. I think the government needs to have an inquiry as to how this whole thing was managed, not to apportion blame, but to work out what we can do to ensure that the next time a pandemic of this stature comes into play. We've got the processes and the way to deal with it, rather than just haphazardly doing what we think is right and what we think is wrong.

Paul, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

Paul, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

Thank you, Sean.

Thank you, Sean.

Paul Nicolaou, Executive Director of Business Sydney and a thoroughly good man. This is the Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.

Paul Nicolaou, Executive Director of Business Sydney and a thoroughly good man. This is the Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.