Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview, I'm Sean Aylmer. The last couple of years has seen an enormous amount of speculation about the future of work and what the workplace should look like. There's plenty of workplace experts out there, but my guest today has actually done it, helping transform major organizations ranging from banks to broadcasters. Katherine Divett is the CEO of workplace and people consultancy Puzzle Partners. Katherine, welcome to Fear and Greed.

Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview, I'm Sean Aylmer. The last couple of years has seen an enormous amount of speculation about the future of work and what the workplace should look like. There's plenty of workplace experts out there, but my guest today has actually done it, helping transform major organizations ranging from banks to broadcasters. Katherine Divett is the CEO of workplace and people consultancy Puzzle Partners. Katherine, welcome to Fear and Greed.

Thanks for having me, Sean.

Thanks for having me, Sean.

Upfront, is the office dead?

Upfront, is the office dead?

I think that's a great question and I think absolutely not. I think we need to work out what the office needs to be. I don't think it's the same as it used to be, but it's definitely not dead.

I think that's a great question and I think absolutely not. I think we need to work out what the office needs to be. I don't think it's the same as it used to be, but it's definitely not dead.

So when we have these discussions, everyone talks about hybrid working, remote working, we probably don't talk a lot about workplace design, not as much. Should we be talking more about workplace design and letting hybrid working sort itself out?

So when we have these discussions, everyone talks about hybrid working, remote working, we probably don't talk a lot about workplace design, not as much. Should we be talking more about workplace design and letting hybrid working sort itself out?

So first of all, I think hybrid's going to very quickly become a swear word. It is a part of a broader consideration around flexible working as is the physical place. I think the things that we are going to need, and want, and value in the physical workplace are changing, and then moving away from, everybody needs an individual desk that they use because they come to the office five days a week, to the kinds of spaces that we want to have to connect, and to collaborate, and really do things together as humans, doing things we come to the office to do. And some of the other things that we traditionally would've done at a desk we now do at home, and we like doing that.

So first of all, I think hybrid's going to very quickly become a swear word. It is a part of a broader consideration around flexible working as is the physical place. I think the things that we are going to need, and want, and value in the physical workplace are changing, and then moving away from, everybody needs an individual desk that they use because they come to the office five days a week, to the kinds of spaces that we want to have to connect, and to collaborate, and really do things together as humans, doing things we come to the office to do. And some of the other things that we traditionally would've done at a desk we now do at home, and we like doing that.

I don't like to say hot- desking.

I don't like to say hot- desking.

Please don't.

Please don't.

I used to use term hot-desking and people get very upset when I say that. Collaborative spaces, joint workspaces, however we are describing it, that had all started pre-COVID though. In terms of cost efficiencies, people were doing that simply because you could have a smaller footprint in an office building. Where has that evolved to today?

I used to use term hot-desking and people get very upset when I say that. Collaborative spaces, joint workspaces, however we are describing it, that had all started pre-COVID though. In terms of cost efficiencies, people were doing that simply because you could have a smaller footprint in an office building. Where has that evolved to today?

So let's disabuse everyone of hot- desking to start with. It can work really well as a non- assigned seating strategy for high- volume sales call centers, for disaster recovery, hot sites. Hot- desking is an approach where there's lots and lots of desks that are identical and not very much else in the workspace, kitchen if you're lucky. If you think about a non- assigned seating approach, you've got a much more shared environment. So you also have a lot of different kinds of settings. So you can have more collaborative spaces, you can have better breakout spaces, you can have better retreat spaces, and you can have a much more refined and resolved meeting arrangement as well. In a non- assigned environment, what we're doing is allocating less of the space to individual desks and more of the space to places that people would come together, and meet, and collaborate, and connect.

So let's disabuse everyone of hot- desking to start with. It can work really well as a non- assigned seating strategy for high- volume sales call centers, for disaster recovery, hot sites. Hot- desking is an approach where there's lots and lots of desks that are identical and not very much else in the workspace, kitchen if you're lucky. If you think about a non- assigned seating approach, you've got a much more shared environment. So you also have a lot of different kinds of settings. So you can have more collaborative spaces, you can have better breakout spaces, you can have better retreat spaces, and you can have a much more refined and resolved meeting arrangement as well. In a non- assigned environment, what we're doing is allocating less of the space to individual desks and more of the space to places that people would come together, and meet, and collaborate, and connect.

I get that in theory, but if you think of the clients you've worked with over 20 years or so, do they know today what they want in a workspace as well as they knew five years ago or 10 years ago?

I get that in theory, but if you think of the clients you've worked with over 20 years or so, do they know today what they want in a workspace as well as they knew five years ago or 10 years ago?

I think the conversation is evolving, and the world is evolving very rapidly as well. Starting from, what are you trying to achieve is a really good place. What's the purpose of the organisation? What is your mission, if you like? How important are the way that people want to come and work with you, and the way that people work in the space to your organisation? And there's different answers for different organisations. I think it is a little bit simplistic to take an approach of, we want to do what everybody else is doing, because I don't think that there is a one- size answer. For organisations who need to be in the office, if you think about people who support 000, that technology requires that you're physically present. If you think about people who work in contact centres that don't require technology, that they're all in the office, it might be a very different arrangement. Whereas the thing that we have learned through the unintended global workplace experiment that the COVID pandemic gave us is that there's lots and lots of things that you can do remotely, but people fundamentally want to be together sometimes as well, and creating spaces and reasons for organisations that support that is incredibly important.

I think the conversation is evolving, and the world is evolving very rapidly as well. Starting from, what are you trying to achieve is a really good place. What's the purpose of the organisation? What is your mission, if you like? How important are the way that people want to come and work with you, and the way that people work in the space to your organisation? And there's different answers for different organisations. I think it is a little bit simplistic to take an approach of, we want to do what everybody else is doing, because I don't think that there is a one- size answer. For organisations who need to be in the office, if you think about people who support 000, that technology requires that you're physically present. If you think about people who work in contact centres that don't require technology, that they're all in the office, it might be a very different arrangement. Whereas the thing that we have learned through the unintended global workplace experiment that the COVID pandemic gave us is that there's lots and lots of things that you can do remotely, but people fundamentally want to be together sometimes as well, and creating spaces and reasons for organisations that support that is incredibly important.

It seems to me that the focus has become much more on people vis- a-vis process as a result of pandemic. People have more power in what they want to do.

It seems to me that the focus has become much more on people vis- a-vis process as a result of pandemic. People have more power in what they want to do.

I think that's probably fair. I think people have learned that there's a whole bunch of things that are possible that they didn't necessarily think could work in a virtual world previously. And guess what? We like it. But we've also learned that to come to the office, or to be present, intentionally, together, gives us opportunities for people who are new to organisation, or who are knew to career, or who are new to role, for all of that incidental learning about how the organisation works, and how we do things around here. And we've also learned there's no better place to do that than being physically present in the office.

I think that's probably fair. I think people have learned that there's a whole bunch of things that are possible that they didn't necessarily think could work in a virtual world previously. And guess what? We like it. But we've also learned that to come to the office, or to be present, intentionally, together, gives us opportunities for people who are new to organisation, or who are knew to career, or who are new to role, for all of that incidental learning about how the organisation works, and how we do things around here. And we've also learned there's no better place to do that than being physically present in the office.

Stay with me, Katherine, and we'll be back in a minute.

Stay with me, Katherine, and we'll be back in a minute.

I'm speaking to Katherine Divett, CEO of Puzzle Partners. So how does management get people to come into the office? Because there are still people who do not want to come in at all, and I have worked in some organizations which are acquiring two days a week, maybe it's five days or fortnight, whatever. I think we're through the table tennis free lunch phase, but maybe we're not. But how do management get people to come in?

I'm speaking to Katherine Divett, CEO of Puzzle Partners. So how does management get people to come into the office? Because there are still people who do not want to come in at all, and I have worked in some organizations which are acquiring two days a week, maybe it's five days or fortnight, whatever. I think we're through the table tennis free lunch phase, but maybe we're not. But how do management get people to come in?

There's some great questions wrapped up in there, Sean. So we've gone through the arms race, if you like, of who's got the best perks.

There's some great questions wrapped up in there, Sean. So we've gone through the arms race, if you like, of who's got the best perks.

Google won, you know that, don't you?

Google won, you know that, don't you?

Well, they were in it to win it. But I also think having seen Silicon Valley in the mid- teens of this century, it was very much, who's got the best perks? And you saw people being attracted to the next organisation based on the shiny new things. What that does is create almost a transactional interaction, if you like, and that doesn't help. Whereas if you are really clear about, together, here are the things that matter in our organisation, and give people a say in how they want to work together, and how they want to use those spaces and how they want to collaborate, it's the "I care" effect. So once you've been part of building something, you've got a much stronger connection to it. And that equally holds not just for lovely flat pack furniture, but it equally holds for when you are designing how you want to work together in your organisation. That's not to say it's a free for all, and employees should have every say, and management should just suck it up and do that. I think there's a really nice approach where we can say, " Here is the mission of the organisation. Here are the boundary conditions of the conversation, if you like. So here are the things that we will and won't do. Now, within that context, how do we want to do that together?" It's a very different set of beautiful questions than management popping away to an office, deciding what the answer will be, and then coming back and saying, " Here is what it will be, and thou shalt." Humans don't like being told what to do, but if we ask people how they want to do it together, it's a very different result.

Well, they were in it to win it. But I also think having seen Silicon Valley in the mid- teens of this century, it was very much, who's got the best perks? And you saw people being attracted to the next organisation based on the shiny new things. What that does is create almost a transactional interaction, if you like, and that doesn't help. Whereas if you are really clear about, together, here are the things that matter in our organisation, and give people a say in how they want to work together, and how they want to use those spaces and how they want to collaborate, it's the "I care" effect. So once you've been part of building something, you've got a much stronger connection to it. And that equally holds not just for lovely flat pack furniture, but it equally holds for when you are designing how you want to work together in your organisation. That's not to say it's a free for all, and employees should have every say, and management should just suck it up and do that. I think there's a really nice approach where we can say, " Here is the mission of the organisation. Here are the boundary conditions of the conversation, if you like. So here are the things that we will and won't do. Now, within that context, how do we want to do that together?" It's a very different set of beautiful questions than management popping away to an office, deciding what the answer will be, and then coming back and saying, " Here is what it will be, and thou shalt." Humans don't like being told what to do, but if we ask people how they want to do it together, it's a very different result.

And have you seen companies in Australia doing that now?

And have you seen companies in Australia doing that now?

Absolutely. We've got clients that we are working with, some of whom have had real success with an approach, even through the deep dark lockdown days of the pandemic, around how do we want to work together, engaging their people in the conversation, identifying what the important things are that the process and the policy would hang off, and then going back and checking in with people how that was working. We worked with one organisation who's a financial services company through the pandemic, who actually increased workplace satisfaction without making fundamental changes in the workplace by asking people how they wanted to use it and share it.

Absolutely. We've got clients that we are working with, some of whom have had real success with an approach, even through the deep dark lockdown days of the pandemic, around how do we want to work together, engaging their people in the conversation, identifying what the important things are that the process and the policy would hang off, and then going back and checking in with people how that was working. We worked with one organisation who's a financial services company through the pandemic, who actually increased workplace satisfaction without making fundamental changes in the workplace by asking people how they wanted to use it and share it.

Are there some factors that just keep popping up as being integral to a successful workplace with people being happy?

Are there some factors that just keep popping up as being integral to a successful workplace with people being happy?

Absolutely. So, in this rapidly changing world that we are working in, people are looking for certainty. Will there be space for me to work? Will the people I'm looking for or wanting to work with be there when I'm there? Is it going to be safe and reliable, and how do I assure myself of that? I want to be trusted to do my job and to get to the outcome rather than being measured on attendance, am I sitting at my desk, even if I'm online shopping? And people are also wanting to be part of the conversation around what are we achieving in terms of outcomes for the organisation, rather than just being measured on the process.

Absolutely. So, in this rapidly changing world that we are working in, people are looking for certainty. Will there be space for me to work? Will the people I'm looking for or wanting to work with be there when I'm there? Is it going to be safe and reliable, and how do I assure myself of that? I want to be trusted to do my job and to get to the outcome rather than being measured on attendance, am I sitting at my desk, even if I'm online shopping? And people are also wanting to be part of the conversation around what are we achieving in terms of outcomes for the organisation, rather than just being measured on the process.

So what's the size of the prize? Or maybe a better way of putting this question, what happens if you don't do it? What if you do have a more command and control environment and you are saying to people that you have to be in the office at certain times and we would prefer you to punch in. And I suppose I'm talking about white collar jobs here because many jobs are necessary that you're actually in the workplace. But what happens if you don't change your ways?

So what's the size of the prize? Or maybe a better way of putting this question, what happens if you don't do it? What if you do have a more command and control environment and you are saying to people that you have to be in the office at certain times and we would prefer you to punch in. And I suppose I'm talking about white collar jobs here because many jobs are necessary that you're actually in the workplace. But what happens if you don't change your ways?

Then you are going to end up with people who like working that way, and that's not a bad thing, or you are going to lose people who don't want to work that way, which might be a bad thing. So in the current economic environment we're working in, people have more choice and we are seeing people make employer decisions based on the level of flexibility that employers are offering, even in adjacent industries. So that is making a difference in terms of how the talent conversation is going to happen, and how the talent pool is going to be available to particular organisations. The prize is very much around finding the right balance between what your organisation needs and wants, and what the people who you are wanting to work in your organisation are looking for. And that really is going to manifest in some really interesting ways for people who are managers now and who have come up through the ranks based on a known set of framework and criteria in the known world, and that's fundamentally changed. So for people, leaders and managers who have learned how to come through, if you like, with a process- based approach, we are going to need to really think about capability and confidence when it comes to leading people in a disparate, geographically dispersed virtual and physical world. And that sounds really scary and alarmist. It's actually possible to do. It's just a set of skilling and training that we're going to need, as well as understanding the questions that organisations need to ask around purpose, mission, and talent.

Then you are going to end up with people who like working that way, and that's not a bad thing, or you are going to lose people who don't want to work that way, which might be a bad thing. So in the current economic environment we're working in, people have more choice and we are seeing people make employer decisions based on the level of flexibility that employers are offering, even in adjacent industries. So that is making a difference in terms of how the talent conversation is going to happen, and how the talent pool is going to be available to particular organisations. The prize is very much around finding the right balance between what your organisation needs and wants, and what the people who you are wanting to work in your organisation are looking for. And that really is going to manifest in some really interesting ways for people who are managers now and who have come up through the ranks based on a known set of framework and criteria in the known world, and that's fundamentally changed. So for people, leaders and managers who have learned how to come through, if you like, with a process- based approach, we are going to need to really think about capability and confidence when it comes to leading people in a disparate, geographically dispersed virtual and physical world. And that sounds really scary and alarmist. It's actually possible to do. It's just a set of skilling and training that we're going to need, as well as understanding the questions that organisations need to ask around purpose, mission, and talent.

My final question, does technology matter? And I have to put some context on this. We all have Zoom, we all have technology that allows us to communicate and be part of a workplace, even though you might be living a long way away. Is that just table stakes now or is technology a reason that people want to change jobs and work in certain ways?

My final question, does technology matter? And I have to put some context on this. We all have Zoom, we all have technology that allows us to communicate and be part of a workplace, even though you might be living a long way away. Is that just table stakes now or is technology a reason that people want to change jobs and work in certain ways?

Through the pandemic, we saw real discrepancies between organisations who were already capable of working in flexible mobile ways and those who weren't. The discussion around which platform you use and how agnostic you are about the platform and what the security considerations of that are, I think will continue. But creating connection that is frictionless, that is consistent, that is easily accessible is table stakes. The piece that really will set organisations apart is around having the organisational capability, the cultural permissions, and the confidence of the people participating to understand the etiquette around how that might work, to make sure that it continues to be inclusive and people understand how to participate in that hybrid environment.

Through the pandemic, we saw real discrepancies between organisations who were already capable of working in flexible mobile ways and those who weren't. The discussion around which platform you use and how agnostic you are about the platform and what the security considerations of that are, I think will continue. But creating connection that is frictionless, that is consistent, that is easily accessible is table stakes. The piece that really will set organisations apart is around having the organisational capability, the cultural permissions, and the confidence of the people participating to understand the etiquette around how that might work, to make sure that it continues to be inclusive and people understand how to participate in that hybrid environment.

It's all about people really, isn't it, Katherine?

It's all about people really, isn't it, Katherine?

It is absolutely all about people. If you put people at the centre and then enable with technology, with workplace, with culture, and with confidence, I think there's a real sweet spot there for Australia.

It is absolutely all about people. If you put people at the centre and then enable with technology, with workplace, with culture, and with confidence, I think there's a real sweet spot there for Australia.

Katherine, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

Katherine, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

Thanks very much for having me.

Thanks very much for having me.

That was Katherine Divett, CEO of workplace and people consultancy, Puzzle Partners. This is the Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.

That was Katherine Divett, CEO of workplace and people consultancy, Puzzle Partners. This is the Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.