Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Alma. Today is, of course Anzac Day, arguably the most solemn and significant day on our national calendar. I wanted to speak to someone who knows this better than most. Matt McLaughlin is one of Australia's leading war historians, having published the books Walking with the ANZACs and Gallipoli The Battlefield's Guide, both considered definitive books on their subject. His latest book is called The Cowra Breakout. But Matt is also founder of Matt McLaughlin Battlefield Tours and has spent the last fifteen years guiding guests around the places we learnt about in school, the places where Australian troops fought and died. Matt, Welcome to Fear and Greed.

Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Alma. Today is, of course Anzac Day, arguably the most solemn and significant day on our national calendar. I wanted to speak to someone who knows this better than most. Matt McLaughlin is one of Australia's leading war historians, having published the books Walking with the ANZACs and Gallipoli The Battlefield's Guide, both considered definitive books on their subject. His latest book is called The Cowra Breakout. But Matt is also founder of Matt McLaughlin Battlefield Tours and has spent the last fifteen years guiding guests around the places we learnt about in school, the places where Australian troops fought and died. Matt, Welcome to Fear and Greed.

Thanks Sean, good to be here.

Thanks Sean, good to be here.

What does Anzac Day mean to you?

What does Anzac Day mean to you?

Wow, that's a great question. I mean it's the nature of Anzac Day has evolved over the decades, and it's probably evolved for me as well. As a kid growing up in the bush, it meant a lot about community and going down to the local service and watching the veterans march past. As I got older and started studying history, it became about actually walking the battlefields. But probably now that I'm a bit older and I'm a father and a bit of a family man, it's about spending time with family and hopefully passing on some of the importance of the day to that younger generation. So I think, like for many people, the days evolved over the years.

Wow, that's a great question. I mean it's the nature of Anzac Day has evolved over the decades, and it's probably evolved for me as well. As a kid growing up in the bush, it meant a lot about community and going down to the local service and watching the veterans march past. As I got older and started studying history, it became about actually walking the battlefields. But probably now that I'm a bit older and I'm a father and a bit of a family man, it's about spending time with family and hopefully passing on some of the importance of the day to that younger generation. So I think, like for many people, the days evolved over the years.

For me, Okay, now what led you into this job as a war history And you mentioned then that as a child you grew up and you told me off air you grew up in west Wylong, which is in central West slash West New South Wales. Where I mean, is it kind of watching that seeing that part of history of your local town. Did that play a role in you moving into what you're doing now?

For me, Okay, now what led you into this job as a war history And you mentioned then that as a child you grew up and you told me off air you grew up in west Wylong, which is in central West slash West New South Wales. Where I mean, is it kind of watching that seeing that part of history of your local town. Did that play a role in you moving into what you're doing now?

Yeah, I think that played a big part in it.

Yeah, I think that played a big part in it.

Sean.

Sean.

I grew up in a family where my grandfather had served in the Second World War and his brother had been killed in the Second World War, So the concept of service and sacrifice in wartime was pretty well founded in our family. And yeah, I think being in a small community, I think on Anzac Day, seeing all those veterans and participating in the march. I used to march with my school and my dad was in the town band, so you know, like all small towns, everyone pretty much mucked in and commemorated where they could. And yeah, so I think that was a really important foundation of my interest in military history. But as I got older, it was just something that went from a bit of an interest to a passion and then an obsession, I would say. So it's just something that's in my blood. I was born to do, was to learn these stories. And now it's great that I get to make up my career.

I grew up in a family where my grandfather had served in the Second World War and his brother had been killed in the Second World War, So the concept of service and sacrifice in wartime was pretty well founded in our family. And yeah, I think being in a small community, I think on Anzac Day, seeing all those veterans and participating in the march. I used to march with my school and my dad was in the town band, so you know, like all small towns, everyone pretty much mucked in and commemorated where they could. And yeah, so I think that was a really important foundation of my interest in military history. But as I got older, it was just something that went from a bit of an interest to a passion and then an obsession, I would say. So it's just something that's in my blood. I was born to do, was to learn these stories. And now it's great that I get to make up my career.

And now you guide people through battlefields. What are some of the sites you've traveled to.

And now you guide people through battlefields. What are some of the sites you've traveled to.

Well, that's a really lucky part of my job, Sean, is I don't get just to read about it. I get to walk the ground. Fantastic to do that and actually explore the ground. So I've been pretty much everywhere Australians fought. I've been to Korea, I've spent a lot of time in Asia on the battlefields there of Vietnam and Singapore and all through that region Thailand. But the battlefields that draw me back are those First World War bisattle fields, Gallipoli and the Western Front in particular Belgium and France. Is always a really big draw for me, and I don't actually personally lead that many tours anymore.

Well, that's a really lucky part of my job, Sean, is I don't get just to read about it. I get to walk the ground. Fantastic to do that and actually explore the ground. So I've been pretty much everywhere Australians fought. I've been to Korea, I've spent a lot of time in Asia on the battlefields there of Vietnam and Singapore and all through that region Thailand. But the battlefields that draw me back are those First World War bisattle fields, Gallipoli and the Western Front in particular Belgium and France. Is always a really big draw for me, and I don't actually personally lead that many tours anymore.

I've got a great team of historians that lead them.

I've got a great team of historians that lead them.

But I really enjoy once a year I get to go back on what we call the McLoughlin's Signature Tour and lead a group of people around the battlefields of Belgium and France. So that's always a highlight of my year, and that's a very special battlefield to walk.

But I really enjoy once a year I get to go back on what we call the McLoughlin's Signature Tour and lead a group of people around the battlefields of Belgium and France. So that's always a highlight of my year, and that's a very special battlefield to walk.

Particularly today, let's talk about Gallipoli. What is it about I mean, I've been to Glipoli and it is moving. I went there on a beautiful day, there was sort of not a care in the world, and the emotion of that place is quite phenomenal, and the Turkish people do a tremendous job looking after it. But what it is it about Gallipoli that just holds such a special place, not just in our folklore but also exactly Gallipoli the place itself.

Particularly today, let's talk about Gallipoli. What is it about I mean, I've been to Glipoli and it is moving. I went there on a beautiful day, there was sort of not a care in the world, and the emotion of that place is quite phenomenal, and the Turkish people do a tremendous job looking after it. But what it is it about Gallipoli that just holds such a special place, not just in our folklore but also exactly Gallipoli the place itself.

Yeah, well, I think you've landed on it, Sean. That landscape is important in our understanding of the history, and Gallipoli is pretty much unique in terms of a battlefield in that it's still the same as it was in many ways in nineteen fifteen. So because the terrain was so severe and the peninsula is very isolated, it hasn't changed very much. If you go to other battlefields around the world, they reverted to farming and you know, positively the life has taken over again from what was formerly a wasteland of a battlefield. Gallipoli is different. You can still see those cliffs, you can walk through the gullies, you can tackle the tough terrain that the ANZACs had to tackle. So not only is the story iconic, I think every Australian and New Zealander who goes there has these deep emotional connections with Gallipoli and the story, but when you walk the ground, you actually are walking in the footsteps of the ANZACs. So it's really quite extraordinary and it's one of the most unique battlefields in the world to visit.

Yeah, well, I think you've landed on it, Sean. That landscape is important in our understanding of the history, and Gallipoli is pretty much unique in terms of a battlefield in that it's still the same as it was in many ways in nineteen fifteen. So because the terrain was so severe and the peninsula is very isolated, it hasn't changed very much. If you go to other battlefields around the world, they reverted to farming and you know, positively the life has taken over again from what was formerly a wasteland of a battlefield. Gallipoli is different. You can still see those cliffs, you can walk through the gullies, you can tackle the tough terrain that the ANZACs had to tackle. So not only is the story iconic, I think every Australian and New Zealander who goes there has these deep emotional connections with Gallipoli and the story, but when you walk the ground, you actually are walking in the footsteps of the ANZACs. So it's really quite extraordinary and it's one of the most unique battlefields in the world to visit.

What about the Western Front? And the Western Front is one of those things you hear about at school all the time. Where exactly is the Western Front and why is that so important to Australians and New Zealanders.

What about the Western Front? And the Western Front is one of those things you hear about at school all the time. Where exactly is the Western Front and why is that so important to Australians and New Zealanders.

The Western Front was the name given to the battlefield France and Belgium during the First World War because it was really from a German perspective, because Germany was fighting on two fronts against the Russians on their eastern front and against the French and the British on the western front, and so we adopted the German name for the battlefields. And the area stretches pretty much about an hour north of Paris today you go, if you drove up from Paris, it would take about an hour to get to the battlefields, and it stretches from there all the way up across the Belgian border all the way to the Belgian coast. And the trench lines were fairly static during the four years of warfare that were there, so the Western Front didn't move very much, so there's still a lot to see in that region. And Australians came there after Gallipoli, so in early nineteen sixteen the Australians and New Zealanders arrived and then for the next three years it was some of their toughest fighting of the war. In fact, the toughest fighting of the war. Their greatest achievements in the First World War occurred in Belgium and France, so Gallipoli will always be iconic, but the Western Front is the place where the most Anzac sacrifice occurred during the war.

The Western Front was the name given to the battlefield France and Belgium during the First World War because it was really from a German perspective, because Germany was fighting on two fronts against the Russians on their eastern front and against the French and the British on the western front, and so we adopted the German name for the battlefields. And the area stretches pretty much about an hour north of Paris today you go, if you drove up from Paris, it would take about an hour to get to the battlefields, and it stretches from there all the way up across the Belgian border all the way to the Belgian coast. And the trench lines were fairly static during the four years of warfare that were there, so the Western Front didn't move very much, so there's still a lot to see in that region. And Australians came there after Gallipoli, so in early nineteen sixteen the Australians and New Zealanders arrived and then for the next three years it was some of their toughest fighting of the war. In fact, the toughest fighting of the war. Their greatest achievements in the First World War occurred in Belgium and France, so Gallipoli will always be iconic, but the Western Front is the place where the most Anzac sacrifice occurred during the war.

Are there other spots around the world that you think we tend to overlook because Gallipoli number one, Western Front number two? But we have fought in many theaters across many centuries.

Are there other spots around the world that you think we tend to overlook because Gallipoli number one, Western Front number two? But we have fought in many theaters across many centuries.

Really, Yeah, Australia's always been a very good citizen of the world. And whenever there was a need for armies to sail across the seas, Australia and New Zealand for that matter, were always very active in providing troops. There's some extraordinary places. I think one of the interesting things is that the Pacific battlefields of World War II were so important and so iconic for so many families, And there's so many people around today who could tell you stories of their father or grandfather fighting in those theaters. And yet the Pacific is a difficult destination to visit. It's not easy to go to some of these places, to go to the Solomon Islands or New Guinea or a host of other places in Borneo, all these other places that Australians and New Zealanders fought during the war. So I think for that reason as a destination, it gets overlooked. I think we know the history very very well, not many people are actually engaging with that history by walking the ground. And I think the simple reason for that is, at the end of the day, a battlefield tour is a holiday. I I don't want to make light of it, but it's a theme holiday. It's an experience to go and walk the ground and to participate in a very active and engaging form of travel. And so people want to do that in destinations that they want to visit. So most of our passengers are going to Europe, to France and to Turkey and the UK and Germany simply because those are wonderful destinations to visit. So people tend to focus on those easily accessible destinations that have a lot of cultural value as well. So it's a little bit of an irony that some of the historic battlefields where the Great Anzac legend was written in the Second World War I don't get visited nearly as much as the iconic ones from the First World War.

Really, Yeah, Australia's always been a very good citizen of the world. And whenever there was a need for armies to sail across the seas, Australia and New Zealand for that matter, were always very active in providing troops. There's some extraordinary places. I think one of the interesting things is that the Pacific battlefields of World War II were so important and so iconic for so many families, And there's so many people around today who could tell you stories of their father or grandfather fighting in those theaters. And yet the Pacific is a difficult destination to visit. It's not easy to go to some of these places, to go to the Solomon Islands or New Guinea or a host of other places in Borneo, all these other places that Australians and New Zealanders fought during the war. So I think for that reason as a destination, it gets overlooked. I think we know the history very very well, not many people are actually engaging with that history by walking the ground. And I think the simple reason for that is, at the end of the day, a battlefield tour is a holiday. I I don't want to make light of it, but it's a theme holiday. It's an experience to go and walk the ground and to participate in a very active and engaging form of travel. And so people want to do that in destinations that they want to visit. So most of our passengers are going to Europe, to France and to Turkey and the UK and Germany simply because those are wonderful destinations to visit. So people tend to focus on those easily accessible destinations that have a lot of cultural value as well. So it's a little bit of an irony that some of the historic battlefields where the Great Anzac legend was written in the Second World War I don't get visited nearly as much as the iconic ones from the First World War.

So it tends to take your tours. I'm interested now that is it a younger cohort, Is it older Australians who.

So it tends to take your tours. I'm interested now that is it a younger cohort, Is it older Australians who.

Yeah, there's a real mix of people.

Yeah, there's a real mix of people.

I mean, we're running guided tours, so the people who naturally tend to do that are older Australians. They're the ones that want to go and guided to as opposed to free wheeling young people who want to do their own thing. So as you would find in any element of the travel industry, that's a fairly natural fit with older Australians.

I mean, we're running guided tours, so the people who naturally tend to do that are older Australians. They're the ones that want to go and guided to as opposed to free wheeling young people who want to do their own thing. So as you would find in any element of the travel industry, that's a fairly natural fit with older Australians.

But there's also quite a few young people that go as well.

But there's also quite a few young people that go as well.

So we lead a lot of school groups, we lead military groups in terms of defense force groups. A lot of young people just simply turn up on the tours because they want to learn about it and they want to travel with people that know what they're talking about and can.

So we lead a lot of school groups, we lead military groups in terms of defense force groups. A lot of young people just simply turn up on the tours because they want to learn about it and they want to travel with people that know what they're talking about and can.

Show them the history.

Show them the history.

So I would say that about a quarter of the people a quarter to a third of the people on a given tour would have a direct family connection. So they may be following in the footsteps of their great uncle or their grandfather, in some cases their father, if there was a you know, if the maths works out correctly with ages. But the majority of people are just doing it because they're Australians who want to know about this history and they've heard about it. They've grown up attending Anzac Day services in Australia and they want to actually walk the ground, and I love it when people do that because people.

So I would say that about a quarter of the people a quarter to a third of the people on a given tour would have a direct family connection. So they may be following in the footsteps of their great uncle or their grandfather, in some cases their father, if there was a you know, if the maths works out correctly with ages. But the majority of people are just doing it because they're Australians who want to know about this history and they've heard about it. They've grown up attending Anzac Day services in Australia and they want to actually walk the ground, and I love it when people do that because people.

Who don't get it say, why would you walk the ground?

Who don't get it say, why would you walk the ground?

Why would you want to go and wander around farm fields for a few days hearing about stories of death and destruction.

Why would you want to go and wander around farm fields for a few days hearing about stories of death and destruction.

But it does bring the history to life.

But it does bring the history to life.

It's a cliche to say that, but it's a well founded cliche that it does bring that history to life. And there's nothing like actually walking the ground. So yeah, we get a real mix of people on the tours, but there's a real shared experience as well, because everyone's there for the same reason. So it's a very engaging trip that.

It's a cliche to say that, but it's a well founded cliche that it does bring that history to life. And there's nothing like actually walking the ground. So yeah, we get a real mix of people on the tours, but there's a real shared experience as well, because everyone's there for the same reason. So it's a very engaging trip that.

We run and just quickly. You also do tours of Darwin. I didn't realize that I would love to do a tour of Darwin. The bombing of Darwin.

We run and just quickly. You also do tours of Darwin. I didn't realize that I would love to do a tour of Darwin. The bombing of Darwin.

Of course, Yeah, Darwin's a great one. Most people don't realize.

Of course, Yeah, Darwin's a great one. Most people don't realize.

There's a lot of people heading up there to go to Kakadu and explore the wonderful cultural sites around there. But there's also very rich World War two history related to the bombing of Darwin or bombings of Darwin. Darwin was bombed nearly seventy times during the war, and there's a lot of things left over there. There's absolutely outstanding museums that tell the story and a lot of World War Two sites to visit. So that's always a good one to go up, one that people wouldn't normally think of. But in February every year we lead a tour up to the battlefields to co the first bombing of Darwin on the nineteenth of February nineteen forty two.

There's a lot of people heading up there to go to Kakadu and explore the wonderful cultural sites around there. But there's also very rich World War two history related to the bombing of Darwin or bombings of Darwin. Darwin was bombed nearly seventy times during the war, and there's a lot of things left over there. There's absolutely outstanding museums that tell the story and a lot of World War Two sites to visit. So that's always a good one to go up, one that people wouldn't normally think of. But in February every year we lead a tour up to the battlefields to co the first bombing of Darwin on the nineteenth of February nineteen forty two.

Matt, how are you spending today Anzac Day.

Matt, how are you spending today Anzac Day.

It's quite a busy one. I'm doing lots of media stuff. I'm very fortunate that people are interested to hearing what I've got to say on Anzac Day. But I also find time to go down to my local war memorial in Sydney and participate in a service, and that's always very special. They're always very different every year at Anzac many service very different from the previous one, and so I always like getting down And as I said at the top of the interview, as a kid growing up in the Bush, that sense of community on Anzac Day is very important to me, so I enjoy going out and spending time with my local community.

It's quite a busy one. I'm doing lots of media stuff. I'm very fortunate that people are interested to hearing what I've got to say on Anzac Day. But I also find time to go down to my local war memorial in Sydney and participate in a service, and that's always very special. They're always very different every year at Anzac many service very different from the previous one, and so I always like getting down And as I said at the top of the interview, as a kid growing up in the Bush, that sense of community on Anzac Day is very important to me, so I enjoy going out and spending time with my local community.

Matt, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. Thanks Sean That was Matt McLachlin, War historian and founder of Matt McLaughlin Battlefield Tours. This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode of Fearing Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Elmer. Enjoy your Anzac day.

Matt, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. Thanks Sean That was Matt McLachlin, War historian and founder of Matt McLaughlin Battlefield Tours. This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode of Fearing Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Elmer. Enjoy your Anzac day.