Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Suan Almam. Is Australia already falling behind on AI? The AI revolution is still relatively new. GPT, for instance, has only just turned two, and plenty of workplaces started using the technology for everything from writing reports and generating images to improving the speed and performance of website chatbots. But new research from Atlasian suggests we're falling behind in the AI boom, with half of Australia's workers believing the technology is at best an occasional tool in the workplace and at worst useless. So are we serious about AI and Australia. Is the tech industry and government doing enough to position ourselves to make the most of it? Damien Casaji is the CEO of the Tech Council of Australia. Damien, welcome to Fear and Greed.

Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Suan Almam. Is Australia already falling behind on AI? The AI revolution is still relatively new. GPT, for instance, has only just turned two, and plenty of workplaces started using the technology for everything from writing reports and generating images to improving the speed and performance of website chatbots. But new research from Atlasian suggests we're falling behind in the AI boom, with half of Australia's workers believing the technology is at best an occasional tool in the workplace and at worst useless. So are we serious about AI and Australia. Is the tech industry and government doing enough to position ourselves to make the most of it? Damien Casaji is the CEO of the Tech Council of Australia. Damien, welcome to Fear and Greed.

Good to be with you, Thanks for having me.

Good to be with you, Thanks for having me.

Are we falling behind an AI?

Are we falling behind an AI?

I think the opportunity is there for us to have I think from our perspective, what we're seeing is a lot of development of AI in Australia, probably not enough and never enough, but we do have a number of organizations working on it and we do see the number of jobs increasing in the space. So the opportunity is there, and we have said that there's no reason why our country can't go from thirty three thousand odd jobs in AI right now to two hundred thousand by twenty thirty. We do think that the growth and the opportunity is there, and it's one of the missing pieces in this debate that there are a lot of people that work in their full time role on an AI application actually developing something or using AI as part of their full time work. Whether it's an engineer using a product like co Pilot making them twice as efficient as they would be otherwise, or companies like Harrison AI that have popped up in Australia around health at digital imaging to help doctors diagnose better. So the opportunity is there. When we look at AI from us for our perspective, this is not new. Yes, it's new. Chat GPT is new, but if you were to ask professors and university folks and business who have been kind of thinking about this, you know this is something that's been in the works for about ten years. And when we look at the kind of job numbers in Australia only in twenty fourteen. We're looking at you know, less than a thousand workers working in AI to over thirty three thousand right now, and we believe that they can get up to about two hundred thousand by twenty thirty.

I think the opportunity is there for us to have I think from our perspective, what we're seeing is a lot of development of AI in Australia, probably not enough and never enough, but we do have a number of organizations working on it and we do see the number of jobs increasing in the space. So the opportunity is there, and we have said that there's no reason why our country can't go from thirty three thousand odd jobs in AI right now to two hundred thousand by twenty thirty. We do think that the growth and the opportunity is there, and it's one of the missing pieces in this debate that there are a lot of people that work in their full time role on an AI application actually developing something or using AI as part of their full time work. Whether it's an engineer using a product like co Pilot making them twice as efficient as they would be otherwise, or companies like Harrison AI that have popped up in Australia around health at digital imaging to help doctors diagnose better. So the opportunity is there. When we look at AI from us for our perspective, this is not new. Yes, it's new. Chat GPT is new, but if you were to ask professors and university folks and business who have been kind of thinking about this, you know this is something that's been in the works for about ten years. And when we look at the kind of job numbers in Australia only in twenty fourteen. We're looking at you know, less than a thousand workers working in AI to over thirty three thousand right now, and we believe that they can get up to about two hundred thousand by twenty thirty.

So is it about getting businesses to better embrace it? So I understand what you're saying, and I think it is a huge opportunity. But to actually say that chat GPT is useless, I think means that you don't actually know what you're doing with chat GPT, because that is a really extreme thing and even for minor things, chat gpt T can do some fantastic things right, and that's sort of at the very basic level of AI. Is it about trying to get business to learn it, to embrace it, to actually use it better.

So is it about getting businesses to better embrace it? So I understand what you're saying, and I think it is a huge opportunity. But to actually say that chat GPT is useless, I think means that you don't actually know what you're doing with chat GPT, because that is a really extreme thing and even for minor things, chat gpt T can do some fantastic things right, and that's sort of at the very basic level of AI. Is it about trying to get business to learn it, to embrace it, to actually use it better.

Yeah. So look, there's two broad areas here that we talk about. Number one is the productivity games in relation to the use of technology and AI, and that's where we're falling behind. Our productivity levels in Australia are at for the first time, not getting better, they're getting worse. We're also seeing GDP per capita going backwards, and we've had the biggest reduction in GDP per capita in the last few years than we've had in any time for a long time. So from our perspective, there is more to do here in relation to uptake and we do believe that this is the great opportunity. Whether you're a farmer thinking about how to ensure that your crops are harvested and how you use technology in AI to enhance your activity, or whether it's a small businesses using chatpt or similar products to communicate with their customers. These are the opportunities that we see that are important for the economy from a wider and overall perspective. But where we see huge opportunities actually in the development of AI here in Australia. There's no reason why our engineers can't be creating and helping adopt it. Leonardo AI just got bought out by Camber, I think only three months ago, a good example about the ecosystem working where something is created in Australia and Camva being a global business already being able to leverage that across the globe in the way that Leonardo may not have been able to do. So. From our perspective, there's the adoption, but just as critical and even more important for the wealth and kind of prosperity of this country is that we own some of this, that we are not just receivers of the technology. We are owners and producers of the technology that is going to be taken up by folks around the world.

Yeah. So look, there's two broad areas here that we talk about. Number one is the productivity games in relation to the use of technology and AI, and that's where we're falling behind. Our productivity levels in Australia are at for the first time, not getting better, they're getting worse. We're also seeing GDP per capita going backwards, and we've had the biggest reduction in GDP per capita in the last few years than we've had in any time for a long time. So from our perspective, there is more to do here in relation to uptake and we do believe that this is the great opportunity. Whether you're a farmer thinking about how to ensure that your crops are harvested and how you use technology in AI to enhance your activity, or whether it's a small businesses using chatpt or similar products to communicate with their customers. These are the opportunities that we see that are important for the economy from a wider and overall perspective. But where we see huge opportunities actually in the development of AI here in Australia. There's no reason why our engineers can't be creating and helping adopt it. Leonardo AI just got bought out by Camber, I think only three months ago, a good example about the ecosystem working where something is created in Australia and Camva being a global business already being able to leverage that across the globe in the way that Leonardo may not have been able to do. So. From our perspective, there's the adoption, but just as critical and even more important for the wealth and kind of prosperity of this country is that we own some of this, that we are not just receivers of the technology. We are owners and producers of the technology that is going to be taken up by folks around the world.

Does government have a role in this to ensure that we do have an ecosystem that is friendly to AI manufacturers one hundred percent.

Does government have a role in this to ensure that we do have an ecosystem that is friendly to AI manufacturers one hundred percent.

So, look, I mean from our perspective, when you think about AI's closely linked to robotics, it's closely linked to high end manufacturing. It's closely linked to mining. It's closely linked to the services that we're already good at. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. We are already good at agriculture, we're already good at mining. So from our perspective, the best way that we can use AIS thinking about how we can use it to enhance the efficiency productivity of our current businesses. The role of government is on two sides here. One is the incentive side and the other side is the regulation side. We've welcomed the conversation with government on this. In relation to thinking about AI from a risk based principles perspective, that not at all. AI is equal that it is concerning if there are deep fakes and pornographic images of individuals or privacy that is being breached. That is a problem. You know. We want to help fix that, and we have folks that are very smart within our organization that can help the government think about that. But that is very different to AI applications that are helping our energy grid use less energy per person and burn less coal and make energy itself more efficient. So I think of a company like Nearer, for example, an Australian founded energy tech company that is making the grid more efficient. Their product is to make energy companies understand where their energy is, how hot the copper can get or shouldn't get, how much energy is going to individual households at different times of the day, to ensure that the company is not spinning out energy at two pm on a Tuesday afternoon when no one's home versus eight pm on a Friday evening. These are the kinds of technology that are very useful that are using AI, that are using machine learning in a very very complex network such as energy, which helps government reduce gold plating the energy lines and ensuring that investment is done in the right way. So from our perspective, there is a side here where government must be there to protect and ensure safety, but also allow and enhance the AI that's coming out of this country to flourish.

So, look, I mean from our perspective, when you think about AI's closely linked to robotics, it's closely linked to high end manufacturing. It's closely linked to mining. It's closely linked to the services that we're already good at. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. We are already good at agriculture, we're already good at mining. So from our perspective, the best way that we can use AIS thinking about how we can use it to enhance the efficiency productivity of our current businesses. The role of government is on two sides here. One is the incentive side and the other side is the regulation side. We've welcomed the conversation with government on this. In relation to thinking about AI from a risk based principles perspective, that not at all. AI is equal that it is concerning if there are deep fakes and pornographic images of individuals or privacy that is being breached. That is a problem. You know. We want to help fix that, and we have folks that are very smart within our organization that can help the government think about that. But that is very different to AI applications that are helping our energy grid use less energy per person and burn less coal and make energy itself more efficient. So I think of a company like Nearer, for example, an Australian founded energy tech company that is making the grid more efficient. Their product is to make energy companies understand where their energy is, how hot the copper can get or shouldn't get, how much energy is going to individual households at different times of the day, to ensure that the company is not spinning out energy at two pm on a Tuesday afternoon when no one's home versus eight pm on a Friday evening. These are the kinds of technology that are very useful that are using AI, that are using machine learning in a very very complex network such as energy, which helps government reduce gold plating the energy lines and ensuring that investment is done in the right way. So from our perspective, there is a side here where government must be there to protect and ensure safety, but also allow and enhance the AI that's coming out of this country to flourish.

Okay, Damien, stay with us in a moment, we'll come back talk about what's happ in five years time and what it means for jobs. Okay, Damien, tell me the big question for many people. I totally get the productivity gains, and I appreciate that we could have two d thus one hundred thousand jobs in AI by the end of the decade, But what about those being replaced? What happens there? How do you answer that one?

Okay, Damien, stay with us in a moment, we'll come back talk about what's happ in five years time and what it means for jobs. Okay, Damien, tell me the big question for many people. I totally get the productivity gains, and I appreciate that we could have two d thus one hundred thousand jobs in AI by the end of the decade, But what about those being replaced? What happens there? How do you answer that one?

It's a really good question, and I think the answer is that we can only look at the numbers that we are seeing in front of us, and we can only go by what's happened in history so far. We have had an industrial revolution. We have gone from very basic societies to farming societies, from farming societies to societies that are in factories. Two A conversation. If you were to look at the conversation twenty thirty years ago with the advent of the mobile phone, with the advent of folks in call centers in other countries. There's all these conversations about our jobs going and that there's going to be less jobs for us because of technology that has been proven wrong every single time there has been a technology revolution. We are in a situation where Australia has the lowest unemployment rate consistently over a long period of time then for most of its history, and that's a very good thing. Most people will tell you there is a skills shortage that they can't find the workers to do the things that they need to do, which is hitting on our productivity and which is also hitting on our inflation and the increased cost of pricing. So all the economic indicators right now, even with the advent of the technological revolution that we're currently going through, shows no signs of impacting jobs as a whole. And that doesn't mean that there's not going to be a change. That doesn't mean that there's not going to be retraining that that doesn't mean that there's going to be different kinds of jobs. But from our perspective, we are not a doom and gloom around AI, especially over in the next decade. The opportunity is there. What we are seeing though, is workers using products for AI. We are seeing nurses and doctors using products that Harrison AI make. We are seeing engineers using copile and other products to make themselves more efficient in the workplace. And with the unemployment at where it is, we're not taking a doom and gloom perspective in relation to this.

It's a really good question, and I think the answer is that we can only look at the numbers that we are seeing in front of us, and we can only go by what's happened in history so far. We have had an industrial revolution. We have gone from very basic societies to farming societies, from farming societies to societies that are in factories. Two A conversation. If you were to look at the conversation twenty thirty years ago with the advent of the mobile phone, with the advent of folks in call centers in other countries. There's all these conversations about our jobs going and that there's going to be less jobs for us because of technology that has been proven wrong every single time there has been a technology revolution. We are in a situation where Australia has the lowest unemployment rate consistently over a long period of time then for most of its history, and that's a very good thing. Most people will tell you there is a skills shortage that they can't find the workers to do the things that they need to do, which is hitting on our productivity and which is also hitting on our inflation and the increased cost of pricing. So all the economic indicators right now, even with the advent of the technological revolution that we're currently going through, shows no signs of impacting jobs as a whole. And that doesn't mean that there's not going to be a change. That doesn't mean that there's not going to be retraining that that doesn't mean that there's going to be different kinds of jobs. But from our perspective, we are not a doom and gloom around AI, especially over in the next decade. The opportunity is there. What we are seeing though, is workers using products for AI. We are seeing nurses and doctors using products that Harrison AI make. We are seeing engineers using copile and other products to make themselves more efficient in the workplace. And with the unemployment at where it is, we're not taking a doom and gloom perspective in relation to this.

Okay, So let's think about five ten years ahead. And I know that recently the Tech Council or at least research showing how lifting investment in R and D and tech adoption could contribute about one hundred and sixty seven billion dollars to GDP. With that in mind, where do you hope will be in five or ten years in terms of use of AI in terms of productivity improvements. I'm trying to get my head around, you know how it can somehow quantify this stuff?

Okay, So let's think about five ten years ahead. And I know that recently the Tech Council or at least research showing how lifting investment in R and D and tech adoption could contribute about one hundred and sixty seven billion dollars to GDP. With that in mind, where do you hope will be in five or ten years in terms of use of AI in terms of productivity improvements. I'm trying to get my head around, you know how it can somehow quantify this stuff?

Yeah, well, look, I mean i'd quantify. We are a full percentage point of GDP behind the OECD average when it comes to R and D and investment in this country. So we are well behind the US a third difference in relation to investment per capita. We're behind Canada. We're behind most of the OECD countries in relation to overall R and D investment and tech investment in this country versus most of the not only comparable countries, but countries that we should be ahead of. So that is a very very quantifiable fact. When we look at the settings in Australia, we have great talent, this is a great place to live. But the things that we absolutely need to work on is how do we keep companies in Australia working on R and D. When we look at the R and D tax incentive, we cap it out at a certain size, so it's great for early stage, it's great for early stage, and we see our companies use it. There's been a seismic shift in relation to the Tax Office reporting showing that tech now is the greatest user of the R and D tax incentive and it's taken over mining that. This is a big shift that's happening in the economy and we need to not only enhance that harness it. When we look to the US, there is no limit in relation to the size your company can becomes for you to get R and D tax incentive. So what happens in Australia is that you get an incentive up to a certain point that it mak's actually more sense we hire your engineers or hire those that are working on your IP in the US, because you're incentivized to do that no matter how large or your company become. So that's just one idea. But when we kind of look at this, this is not just something about government. This is about how we think about investment. There's three point five trillion dollars worth of retirement savings in this country and most people don't realize that only a tiny fraction of that is being put into VC or what I would call longer term type investments. If only one percent of that was used for tech R and D type of investments, that would be triple our full VC money pot at the moment. So the opportunity is there. We do have the capital. It is about how we think about using that capital, incentivizing that capital to be used in the right way. But look numerically, there is a whole.

Yeah, well, look, I mean i'd quantify. We are a full percentage point of GDP behind the OECD average when it comes to R and D and investment in this country. So we are well behind the US a third difference in relation to investment per capita. We're behind Canada. We're behind most of the OECD countries in relation to overall R and D investment and tech investment in this country versus most of the not only comparable countries, but countries that we should be ahead of. So that is a very very quantifiable fact. When we look at the settings in Australia, we have great talent, this is a great place to live. But the things that we absolutely need to work on is how do we keep companies in Australia working on R and D. When we look at the R and D tax incentive, we cap it out at a certain size, so it's great for early stage, it's great for early stage, and we see our companies use it. There's been a seismic shift in relation to the Tax Office reporting showing that tech now is the greatest user of the R and D tax incentive and it's taken over mining that. This is a big shift that's happening in the economy and we need to not only enhance that harness it. When we look to the US, there is no limit in relation to the size your company can becomes for you to get R and D tax incentive. So what happens in Australia is that you get an incentive up to a certain point that it mak's actually more sense we hire your engineers or hire those that are working on your IP in the US, because you're incentivized to do that no matter how large or your company become. So that's just one idea. But when we kind of look at this, this is not just something about government. This is about how we think about investment. There's three point five trillion dollars worth of retirement savings in this country and most people don't realize that only a tiny fraction of that is being put into VC or what I would call longer term type investments. If only one percent of that was used for tech R and D type of investments, that would be triple our full VC money pot at the moment. So the opportunity is there. We do have the capital. It is about how we think about using that capital, incentivizing that capital to be used in the right way. But look numerically, there is a whole.

Absolutely, Damien, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

Absolutely, Damien, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

Great good to be with you.

Great good to be with you.

That was Damien Kasaji, CEO of the Tech Council of Australia. This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Join us every morning for the full eversode. I fear and greed. Daily businesses for people who make their own decisions. I'm chanelma enjoy your day.

That was Damien Kasaji, CEO of the Tech Council of Australia. This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Join us every morning for the full eversode. I fear and greed. Daily businesses for people who make their own decisions. I'm chanelma enjoy your day.