Welcome to the Fearing Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Almam. US President Donald Trump's directives on DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion have caused major shop waves across the US, with government departments and agencies ordered to change their employment and hiring practices. It's also spread to the private sector, with some companies like Facebook and Instagram, Main and Meta canceling DEI programs altogether to align themselves with the Trump administration, and in a further escalation of the policy, the administration rate to large companies in the EU, ordering them to comply with the ban on DEI programs if they're a supplier or service provider to the American government. It's getting very complicated. Dealing with the way people are employed, the opportunities they're given in the workplace, and the need to ensure fair representation of society is not easy. But there are many who feel that reform to DEI is overdue and shouldn't be rejected outright. Lindley is the founding director of Surrenders Leadership. Before starting the firm more than two decades ago, she held senior roles in global investment banks, including HSBC Society General and ubs. Since founding Surrenders, she's worked with leaders at asx two hundred companies like mcquari Group, Westpac and ADL, and international organizations including City and JP Morgan maud Lindley, Welcome to the studio.

Welcome to the Fearing Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Almam. US President Donald Trump's directives on DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion have caused major shop waves across the US, with government departments and agencies ordered to change their employment and hiring practices. It's also spread to the private sector, with some companies like Facebook and Instagram, Main and Meta canceling DEI programs altogether to align themselves with the Trump administration, and in a further escalation of the policy, the administration rate to large companies in the EU, ordering them to comply with the ban on DEI programs if they're a supplier or service provider to the American government. It's getting very complicated. Dealing with the way people are employed, the opportunities they're given in the workplace, and the need to ensure fair representation of society is not easy. But there are many who feel that reform to DEI is overdue and shouldn't be rejected outright. Lindley is the founding director of Surrenders Leadership. Before starting the firm more than two decades ago, she held senior roles in global investment banks, including HSBC Society General and ubs. Since founding Surrenders, she's worked with leaders at asx two hundred companies like mcquari Group, Westpac and ADL, and international organizations including City and JP Morgan maud Lindley, Welcome to the studio.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

First set the scene for us when we're talking about DEI as it relates to Australian companies, what are we talking about?

First set the scene for us when we're talking about DEI as it relates to Australian companies, what are we talking about?

Look, fortunately, and quite reassuringly, organizations in Australia are still standing firm on their aspirations to bring other city to their boards, to their executive teams. There's a strong commitment still from Australian organizations to pursue their den initiatives. So I'm not concerned in terms of how the business community has responded to the Trump effect. However, I spend hours in workshop facilitation engaging leaders, supporting leaders to think about how they can bring more inclusion and the way they lead, and during those conversations I hear a lot of things that are concerning and I think it's an opportunity today we're getting to a point of maturity on the topic. It's an opportunity to hear those voices and understand how we can address them.

Look, fortunately, and quite reassuringly, organizations in Australia are still standing firm on their aspirations to bring other city to their boards, to their executive teams. There's a strong commitment still from Australian organizations to pursue their den initiatives. So I'm not concerned in terms of how the business community has responded to the Trump effect. However, I spend hours in workshop facilitation engaging leaders, supporting leaders to think about how they can bring more inclusion and the way they lead, and during those conversations I hear a lot of things that are concerning and I think it's an opportunity today we're getting to a point of maturity on the topic. It's an opportunity to hear those voices and understand how we can address them.

So what's concerning that you're hearing? I mean, no names, but what are you worried about.

So what's concerning that you're hearing? I mean, no names, but what are you worried about.

I'm worried about the perception from a part of the population that the way we're tackling dr is perceived as unfair. So what I'm hearing is, you know, we're tackling unfairness with unfairness. We're trying to address an uneven playing field by leveling the playing field in a different way. So a lot of the actions, the positive discrimination that we are using today to help level that playing field, is experienced as a threat for many leaders. And you know, of course you would think, well, is it male leaders in particular white and glad SAX and male leaders. Of course yes, But many women actually resent this positive discrimination, the actions that come with positive discriminations, because they feel it as undermining their appointment when they are appointed to significant roles. They worry that people will think it's just because you're a woman. That is incredibly detrimental to their success.

I'm worried about the perception from a part of the population that the way we're tackling dr is perceived as unfair. So what I'm hearing is, you know, we're tackling unfairness with unfairness. We're trying to address an uneven playing field by leveling the playing field in a different way. So a lot of the actions, the positive discrimination that we are using today to help level that playing field, is experienced as a threat for many leaders. And you know, of course you would think, well, is it male leaders in particular white and glad SAX and male leaders. Of course yes, But many women actually resent this positive discrimination, the actions that come with positive discriminations, because they feel it as undermining their appointment when they are appointed to significant roles. They worry that people will think it's just because you're a woman. That is incredibly detrimental to their success.

Everything you've said, I keep thinking back in my mind what should be DEI yes, and maybe what is doi.

Everything you've said, I keep thinking back in my mind what should be DEI yes, and maybe what is doi.

We've got to start from the beginning. We have two different aspirations that are pursued at the same time, and unfortunately, because they're not explained, they're not dissociated, they undermine each other. So you have one aspiration, which is fixing the fact that women are not represented equally at board and executive levels within our organizations right. I mean, we only have nine female CEOs out of the Essex two hundred companies. Chair representation is probably around the ten percent marked ten to twelve percent mark. We're getting there in terms of board representations study seven to forty three percent, but you can see that we still have a fairly unequal representation of women. So we need to address this, and there is a lot of underpinning unconscious biases. You know, the patriarchy is still very much experienced by many many women, So there are a lot of fundamental inequalities that we can tackle. That's one one aspiration. The other aspiration is to bring diversity of thought, to bring an adaptive and inclusive workplace environment where we're capable of harnessing cognitive diversity, a diversity of mental models, so that we make better decisions and we create a more innovative, creative way of tackling today's business biggest challenges. The problem is that we're amulgamating those two things and we're saying, bring more women. We need to fix this. It's unfair, and you'll have diversity of thought. The prime with this is that it's not exactly right. It's not exactly one is not necessarily fixing the other. There are certainly there's a huge interplay between the two, but we need to explain better how those two things cohabitate or almost live side by side, but should be tackled differently, and we need to bring a different narrative. We need to enrich the narrative beyond or behind why diversity of thought is important at an organizational level, and how to foster that diversity of thought. It is my experience and my belief that this second aspiration and the narrative behind the why diversity of thought is important and how diversity of thought needs to be leveraged. If we enrich this narrative, we will get further on the first issue that is very real, which is gender inequality.

We've got to start from the beginning. We have two different aspirations that are pursued at the same time, and unfortunately, because they're not explained, they're not dissociated, they undermine each other. So you have one aspiration, which is fixing the fact that women are not represented equally at board and executive levels within our organizations right. I mean, we only have nine female CEOs out of the Essex two hundred companies. Chair representation is probably around the ten percent marked ten to twelve percent mark. We're getting there in terms of board representations study seven to forty three percent, but you can see that we still have a fairly unequal representation of women. So we need to address this, and there is a lot of underpinning unconscious biases. You know, the patriarchy is still very much experienced by many many women, So there are a lot of fundamental inequalities that we can tackle. That's one one aspiration. The other aspiration is to bring diversity of thought, to bring an adaptive and inclusive workplace environment where we're capable of harnessing cognitive diversity, a diversity of mental models, so that we make better decisions and we create a more innovative, creative way of tackling today's business biggest challenges. The problem is that we're amulgamating those two things and we're saying, bring more women. We need to fix this. It's unfair, and you'll have diversity of thought. The prime with this is that it's not exactly right. It's not exactly one is not necessarily fixing the other. There are certainly there's a huge interplay between the two, but we need to explain better how those two things cohabitate or almost live side by side, but should be tackled differently, and we need to bring a different narrative. We need to enrich the narrative beyond or behind why diversity of thought is important at an organizational level, and how to foster that diversity of thought. It is my experience and my belief that this second aspiration and the narrative behind the why diversity of thought is important and how diversity of thought needs to be leveraged. If we enrich this narrative, we will get further on the first issue that is very real, which is gender inequality.

More. We might dive into that in a moment. We'll be back. I'm talking to maud Linley from a surrendous leadership. Okay, so let's keep going down the path of the diversity of thought and bring it back to what Donald Trump is doing in the US. Is your thesis that by throwing it all up in the air, which he effectively is doing, we get a chance to reset.

More. We might dive into that in a moment. We'll be back. I'm talking to maud Linley from a surrendous leadership. Okay, so let's keep going down the path of the diversity of thought and bring it back to what Donald Trump is doing in the US. Is your thesis that by throwing it all up in the air, which he effectively is doing, we get a chance to reset.

No, Look, I think what Trump is doing is incredibly detrimental to the cause that we will want to pursue. I think the way that he's tackling it is willful, and so I really would hate for us to think that the way that he's tackling it there's anything to learn from this. However, why have people voted for him? Why have people sort of elicited that change just because they are fearful of the way that we're bringing this topic to life? And you know, if we are really committed to bringing change, we need all change of agents. We need all the people who are actors of this change to actually be on board with what we want to achieve. And if there are people who are not on board, we can get frustrated. I certainly get very frustrated at times when I observe, you know, male leaders not understanding the unequal playing field, not understanding the fact that there are unconscious bias, is that they are certainly, you know, we can respond the emotional, but we also need to understand that change is only effective when people have the desire to change, when they understand why it's important to change, when they are equipped as to what they can do, and when there is a positive reinforcement that the change is going to be positive for everyone. I believe we can find that narrative that will engage everyone and that will take us further and faster.

No, Look, I think what Trump is doing is incredibly detrimental to the cause that we will want to pursue. I think the way that he's tackling it is willful, and so I really would hate for us to think that the way that he's tackling it there's anything to learn from this. However, why have people voted for him? Why have people sort of elicited that change just because they are fearful of the way that we're bringing this topic to life? And you know, if we are really committed to bringing change, we need all change of agents. We need all the people who are actors of this change to actually be on board with what we want to achieve. And if there are people who are not on board, we can get frustrated. I certainly get very frustrated at times when I observe, you know, male leaders not understanding the unequal playing field, not understanding the fact that there are unconscious bias, is that they are certainly, you know, we can respond the emotional, but we also need to understand that change is only effective when people have the desire to change, when they understand why it's important to change, when they are equipped as to what they can do, and when there is a positive reinforcement that the change is going to be positive for everyone. I believe we can find that narrative that will engage everyone and that will take us further and faster.

How do you do it? I mean, this has been something that we've been talking about for a long time and it has improved. But did you say nine see leaders, females, leaders of the top two hundred companies haven't done that good job.

How do you do it? I mean, this has been something that we've been talking about for a long time and it has improved. But did you say nine see leaders, females, leaders of the top two hundred companies haven't done that good job.

Perhaps because there are forces that play that we're not seeing, that we're not hearing, that are acting against the change. And these people, whether we agree with them or not, I don't agree with them, but we need to listen to them. We need to bring them to the conversation, and we need to engage them. Now you've asked me, we've tried. Why haven't we succeeded? Now we haven't really explained why and how diversity of thought is helpful. We haven't really explained that there is a fundamental shift in the way that organizations foster their culture. That is required before we can really see diversity of thought flourishing. We need to disconnect the concept of identity diversity, which is demographic diversity around the table, and cognitive diversity. Cognitive diversity is the extent to which you have a diversity of mental models around the table. If we seek out, actively seek out cognitive diversity, we're going to get a broader spectrum of the population. Today, what we're doing is we're trying to achieve gender diversity or cultural diversity, but we're still looking for people who think the same way. We're still looking for people who have ticked the same experienced box, the same background, the same university. So if we broaden actually what we're expecting for any role, we will attract the broader spectrum of the population. But that's not enough. That's only just starting. It's only bringing diversity to the table. For diversity to stick, for diversity to flourish, for everyone to be really considered as equal in a pursuit to top leadership positions, we need to transform the way that we make decisions. We need to really explain what inclusion means. Inclusion doesn't mean consensus. Inclusion doesn't mean being nice. When we seek out to be nice and to make decisions based on consensus, we create groupthink. We create in group that's actually the enemy of diversity of thought, cognitive diversity, and adaptability. So we need to create an environment where people are hungry to be challenged. Really hard, because in an environment where being right seems the most important thing to achieve to be recognized, that's actually a really hard thing to do. So we've got to start from the beginning at re explaining that the role of a leader is to curate debate, to curate constructive descent, to make decisions by harnessing diversity of thought that are going to challenge one set.

Perhaps because there are forces that play that we're not seeing, that we're not hearing, that are acting against the change. And these people, whether we agree with them or not, I don't agree with them, but we need to listen to them. We need to bring them to the conversation, and we need to engage them. Now you've asked me, we've tried. Why haven't we succeeded? Now we haven't really explained why and how diversity of thought is helpful. We haven't really explained that there is a fundamental shift in the way that organizations foster their culture. That is required before we can really see diversity of thought flourishing. We need to disconnect the concept of identity diversity, which is demographic diversity around the table, and cognitive diversity. Cognitive diversity is the extent to which you have a diversity of mental models around the table. If we seek out, actively seek out cognitive diversity, we're going to get a broader spectrum of the population. Today, what we're doing is we're trying to achieve gender diversity or cultural diversity, but we're still looking for people who think the same way. We're still looking for people who have ticked the same experienced box, the same background, the same university. So if we broaden actually what we're expecting for any role, we will attract the broader spectrum of the population. But that's not enough. That's only just starting. It's only bringing diversity to the table. For diversity to stick, for diversity to flourish, for everyone to be really considered as equal in a pursuit to top leadership positions, we need to transform the way that we make decisions. We need to really explain what inclusion means. Inclusion doesn't mean consensus. Inclusion doesn't mean being nice. When we seek out to be nice and to make decisions based on consensus, we create groupthink. We create in group that's actually the enemy of diversity of thought, cognitive diversity, and adaptability. So we need to create an environment where people are hungry to be challenged. Really hard, because in an environment where being right seems the most important thing to achieve to be recognized, that's actually a really hard thing to do. So we've got to start from the beginning at re explaining that the role of a leader is to curate debate, to curate constructive descent, to make decisions by harnessing diversity of thought that are going to challenge one set.

I mean, we are tally out of time, but that's really difficult. I mean, when you're talking, it reminds me of how I manage my children, right, My children come at things in a really different way, and cognitive diversity is harder to get your head around. Then there's a male, there's a female, there's a fifty year old, there's a twenty five year old. Actually understanding cognitive diversity and reaping the rewards from it is really tough.

I mean, we are tally out of time, but that's really difficult. I mean, when you're talking, it reminds me of how I manage my children, right, My children come at things in a really different way, and cognitive diversity is harder to get your head around. Then there's a male, there's a female, there's a fifty year old, there's a twenty five year old. Actually understanding cognitive diversity and reaping the rewards from it is really tough.

We've come to a point of maturity where I think it's needed and it's possible, and we can still measure identity city to check whether we are successful. You know, I still think we need to measure identity diversity targets. We need to set targets and measure whether we get there. But when you go to your middle manager, instead of telling them you need to reach those identity diversity targets, you need to explain to them and support them to think about diversity of thought. We can't measure diversity of thought, but we can start to measure the culture that enables diversity of thought. So if you use a lever which is adapting your culture, measuring a different type of culture as a leaver of change, and then your output is your identity diversity targets, we'll get to those targets much more sustainably than perhaps where we are now.

We've come to a point of maturity where I think it's needed and it's possible, and we can still measure identity city to check whether we are successful. You know, I still think we need to measure identity diversity targets. We need to set targets and measure whether we get there. But when you go to your middle manager, instead of telling them you need to reach those identity diversity targets, you need to explain to them and support them to think about diversity of thought. We can't measure diversity of thought, but we can start to measure the culture that enables diversity of thought. So if you use a lever which is adapting your culture, measuring a different type of culture as a leaver of change, and then your output is your identity diversity targets, we'll get to those targets much more sustainably than perhaps where we are now.

I hope so more. Thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

I hope so more. Thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

Thanks so much for having.

Thanks so much for having.

Me as maud Linley, founding director of Surrendous Leadership. This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. You join us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed Daily business use for people who make their own decisions. I'm Seanielmer. Enjoy your day.

Me as maud Linley, founding director of Surrendous Leadership. This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. You join us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed Daily business use for people who make their own decisions. I'm Seanielmer. Enjoy your day.