Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, where we discussed the top political headlines with some of today's best minds, and Donald Trump's transition team has refused to sign the normal ethics forms. We have such a great show for you today the Lincoln Project Zone. Rick Wilson talks to us about the impending disaster of the next Trump administration. Then we will talk to Zucked author and my friend Roger mcnamie about how tech is going to eat us all. But first the news.

Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, where we discussed the top political headlines with some of today's best minds, and Donald Trump's transition team has refused to sign the normal ethics forms. We have such a great show for you today the Lincoln Project Zone. Rick Wilson talks to us about the impending disaster of the next Trump administration. Then we will talk to Zucked author and my friend Roger mcnamie about how tech is going to eat us all. But first the news.

So, Molly, I for one really enjoy you think about our jobs that we get to work from home. Unfortunately, our friends who are federal employees are not going to enjoy that anymore. What are you seeing here?

So, Molly, I for one really enjoy you think about our jobs that we get to work from home. Unfortunately, our friends who are federal employees are not going to enjoy that anymore. What are you seeing here?

I have a lot of very naughty things to say about Elin and Vivek and their very stupid fake government entity, But I actually don't think this is that bad. But they have called for government employees, federal employees to return to five days a week in the office work weeks. I mean, these guys are going to do some bad stuff, Okay, some real bad stuff, some real bad stuff, and we know that because they're tweeting about it, saying things like we're going to have to tighten our belts and suffer in order to balance the budget and get us all a tax cut. But this, I think is not so bad. But they do want federal employees in the office five days a week. But hidden under that headline, I think, and I think the real part of this that we should talk about is that they did write an op out in the Wall Street Journal this week. The two of them and Wright is doing some heavy lifting, because I have a feeling that neither of them wrote it. And you'll remember the Wall Street Journal opinion section is kind of very, very very right way. President Trump has asked the two of us to lead a newly formed Department of Government Efficiency or DOGE, because we love the memes to get the federal government down to size. The entrenched and evergrowing bureaucracy represents an existent threat to our republic. I'm not sure how that works, and politicians have abetted it for too long. That's why we are doing it differently. We are entrepreneurs, not politicians, entrepreneurs who got rich on government subsidies, but who's counting. We will serve as outside volunteers, not federal officials or employees. Unlike government commissions or advisory councils. We won't just write reports or cut ribbons, will cut costs. You want to bet me a million dollars they just write reports and cut ribbons.

I have a lot of very naughty things to say about Elin and Vivek and their very stupid fake government entity, But I actually don't think this is that bad. But they have called for government employees, federal employees to return to five days a week in the office work weeks. I mean, these guys are going to do some bad stuff, Okay, some real bad stuff, some real bad stuff, and we know that because they're tweeting about it, saying things like we're going to have to tighten our belts and suffer in order to balance the budget and get us all a tax cut. But this, I think is not so bad. But they do want federal employees in the office five days a week. But hidden under that headline, I think, and I think the real part of this that we should talk about is that they did write an op out in the Wall Street Journal this week. The two of them and Wright is doing some heavy lifting, because I have a feeling that neither of them wrote it. And you'll remember the Wall Street Journal opinion section is kind of very, very very right way. President Trump has asked the two of us to lead a newly formed Department of Government Efficiency or DOGE, because we love the memes to get the federal government down to size. The entrenched and evergrowing bureaucracy represents an existent threat to our republic. I'm not sure how that works, and politicians have abetted it for too long. That's why we are doing it differently. We are entrepreneurs, not politicians, entrepreneurs who got rich on government subsidies, but who's counting. We will serve as outside volunteers, not federal officials or employees. Unlike government commissions or advisory councils. We won't just write reports or cut ribbons, will cut costs. You want to bet me a million dollars they just write reports and cut ribbons.

I'm not taking that bet.

I'm not taking that bet.

All right? Are they going to write a lot of reports? Some beliegue or staffer who's also a quote unquote volunteer is going to write a lot of reports.

All right? Are they going to write a lot of reports? Some beliegue or staffer who's also a quote unquote volunteer is going to write a lot of reports.

But Malli, they're going to have a podcast too, Oh, I would hope. So Pete Hegsath one of Trump's many, many amazing Best People nominees. He has some questionable views about women in the military. And I'm going to shock you here. They're not really rooted in fact. What are you seeing here?

But Malli, they're going to have a podcast too, Oh, I would hope. So Pete Hegsath one of Trump's many, many amazing Best People nominees. He has some questionable views about women in the military. And I'm going to shock you here. They're not really rooted in fact. What are you seeing here?

So Pete Hegsas has said about women in the military.

So Pete Hegsas has said about women in the military.

He said, the standards have been Lord, I'm straight up saying we should not have women in combat roles.

He said, the standards have been Lord, I'm straight up saying we should not have women in combat roles.

So Pete Hagsas said that. And you'll remember he is a weekend television host. Not that there's anything wrong with the weekend cable news on Fox again Donald Trump is You'll remember he does love a television host because he feels they are the most serious of people to serve in administrations. Whatever Anyway, The point here is Pete Hagsas said that women have a lower standard. There is volumeous evidence to show that that isn't true. And when he goes for his congressional hearing, if he gets that far, he will sit across from Tammy Duckworth, the senator from Illinois who lost both her legs in battle. So we shall see how he can make that case against women in the military to a woman who has given everything. Jesse, Let's talk about Donald trump favorite boogeyman.

So Pete Hagsas said that. And you'll remember he is a weekend television host. Not that there's anything wrong with the weekend cable news on Fox again Donald Trump is You'll remember he does love a television host because he feels they are the most serious of people to serve in administrations. Whatever Anyway, The point here is Pete Hagsas said that women have a lower standard. There is volumeous evidence to show that that isn't true. And when he goes for his congressional hearing, if he gets that far, he will sit across from Tammy Duckworth, the senator from Illinois who lost both her legs in battle. So we shall see how he can make that case against women in the military to a woman who has given everything. Jesse, Let's talk about Donald trump favorite boogeyman.

I've noticed something with his nominations. There's two things in common. A lot of sexual abuse allegations and a lot of people who have weird stories with doctors. Yes, what are you seeing here?

I've noticed something with his nominations. There's two things in common. A lot of sexual abuse allegations and a lot of people who have weird stories with doctors. Yes, what are you seeing here?

They really really really hate woke, right, whatever woke is, and they're really obsessed with diversity, equity, and inclusion. Let's just talk about the second. They hate diversity, equity and inclusion. Okay, they hate a thing that is probably like diversity. They hate diversity. Imagine hating diversity. They hate equity, imagine hating equity, They hate inclusion including something anyway, So they hate DEI and Donald Trump has said that on day one, day one, he is going to end Dei and a key figure in Trump's anti Dei agenda is the son of immigrants, Steven Miller, who grew up in Santa Monica, and he is white and Jewish, not entirely the same thing. He is Jewish, just like I'm Jewish. And he feels that people who are black have had too many advantages, and so he is hoping to rollback workplace protections for Black Americans to a degree not seen since the end of Reconstruction, which ushered in Jim Crow. Jim Crow, which was in some ways used as a framework for someone who many people in Donald Trump's cabinet have compared Donald Trump to Adolf Hitler. We will see what happens here. It's super upsetting to watch people get their rights taken away. But the American voters did this, so good luck to everyone.

They really really really hate woke, right, whatever woke is, and they're really obsessed with diversity, equity, and inclusion. Let's just talk about the second. They hate diversity, equity and inclusion. Okay, they hate a thing that is probably like diversity. They hate diversity. Imagine hating diversity. They hate equity, imagine hating equity, They hate inclusion including something anyway, So they hate DEI and Donald Trump has said that on day one, day one, he is going to end Dei and a key figure in Trump's anti Dei agenda is the son of immigrants, Steven Miller, who grew up in Santa Monica, and he is white and Jewish, not entirely the same thing. He is Jewish, just like I'm Jewish. And he feels that people who are black have had too many advantages, and so he is hoping to rollback workplace protections for Black Americans to a degree not seen since the end of Reconstruction, which ushered in Jim Crow. Jim Crow, which was in some ways used as a framework for someone who many people in Donald Trump's cabinet have compared Donald Trump to Adolf Hitler. We will see what happens here. It's super upsetting to watch people get their rights taken away. But the American voters did this, so good luck to everyone.

Somali. We should also talk about what the signals of this cabinet and this administration or saidek, what do you see?

Somali. We should also talk about what the signals of this cabinet and this administration or saidek, what do you see?

They are sending signals, and the signals are that me too is no longer. This is a really interesting piece by Jill Philipovich about how it is the Donald Trump's sexual cabinet. Trump's second term is shaping up to platform even more men who have been incredibly abusive sexual assault and harassment. You've got Matt Gates who's now out, who has now dropped out and is now spending his time doing cameos, which we're not advertising his cameos, We're just saying that's true. You've got Pete Hagsith. You've got the sexual abuse issues, the lawsuit that has focused on the WWE, which is co owned by Linda McMahon, and she was actually named in one of these lawsuits. Here, there and everywhere. RFK Junior has numerous allegations of all sorts of stuff that's not okay. Look, they're normalizing what Trump considers to be normal, and none of us should be surprised by any of this.

They are sending signals, and the signals are that me too is no longer. This is a really interesting piece by Jill Philipovich about how it is the Donald Trump's sexual cabinet. Trump's second term is shaping up to platform even more men who have been incredibly abusive sexual assault and harassment. You've got Matt Gates who's now out, who has now dropped out and is now spending his time doing cameos, which we're not advertising his cameos, We're just saying that's true. You've got Pete Hagsith. You've got the sexual abuse issues, the lawsuit that has focused on the WWE, which is co owned by Linda McMahon, and she was actually named in one of these lawsuits. Here, there and everywhere. RFK Junior has numerous allegations of all sorts of stuff that's not okay. Look, they're normalizing what Trump considers to be normal, and none of us should be surprised by any of this.

Strong a grief.

Strong a grief.

Rick Wilson is the founder of the Lincoln Project and the host of the Enemy's List.

Rick Wilson is the founder of the Lincoln Project and the host of the Enemy's List.

Rick Wilson, Mollie john Fast, Welcome to Thanksgiving Week.

Rick Wilson, Mollie john Fast, Welcome to Thanksgiving Week.

It's Sunday, so we must be podcasting. I want to air the petty grievances. Nextgiving makes me know it's time to air the petty grievances.

It's Sunday, so we must be podcasting. I want to air the petty grievances. Nextgiving makes me know it's time to air the petty grievances.

Wish those grievances out and get to it all right.

Wish those grievances out and get to it all right.

So my pettiest grievance is that I wrote this whole I think very smart essay. If I do say so myself, which I do.

So my pettiest grievance is that I wrote this whole I think very smart essay. If I do say so myself, which I do.

Which I retreated or re exed or whatever the right it's.

Which I retreated or re exed or whatever the right it's.

Called yes, yes to all the bots and elon about how I was wrong about some fundamental premises about the twenty twenty for election. Right, I thought, oh, this will be followed by a plethora of other people going on about how they were wrong about the twenty twenty four election. You know what I found. I was greeted with no one else.

Called yes, yes to all the bots and elon about how I was wrong about some fundamental premises about the twenty twenty for election. Right, I thought, oh, this will be followed by a plethora of other people going on about how they were wrong about the twenty twenty four election. You know what I found. I was greeted with no one else.

You know what. Let me just say this. There is a degree of post election duchiness that manifests itself across four or five different axes and domains. Number one is the sorest winner syndrome, with every mob out there, Right.

You know what. Let me just say this. There is a degree of post election duchiness that manifests itself across four or five different axes and domains. Number one is the sorest winner syndrome, with every mob out there, Right.

They won, but they're still not happy.

They won, but they're still not happy.

Right, this election is all about free speech? Shut up liberal. Yeah, that's a big set. I have a fraction of progressives who are like, if only we had declared we would seize the means of production, we would have won.

Right, this election is all about free speech? Shut up liberal. Yeah, that's a big set. I have a fraction of progressives who are like, if only we had declared we would seize the means of production, we would have won.

But they are not nearly as of notch as. Oh god, no, tell me the other groups you think.

But they are not nearly as of notch as. Oh god, no, tell me the other groups you think.

There's also some practical types who are like, oh, if only we'd done more of this or that mechanical thing, and it's always the mechanical thing their group does best. Right, only we've gone out for more turnout among dog owners.

There's also some practical types who are like, oh, if only we'd done more of this or that mechanical thing, and it's always the mechanical thing their group does best. Right, only we've gone out for more turnout among dog owners.

Okay, right, right, But.

Okay, right, right, But.

The entire the entire post election.

The entire the entire post election.

Wait, we're not going to mention the never trumpers here.

Wait, we're not going to mention the never trumpers here.

I love We're getting it, We're getting to it, We're getting to it. But the whole dream that is dead. That Look, I will say this, I'll take some creditae. I'm an early adopter of abandoning the full Republican thing because it was never coming back. I said it in twenty eighteen. It was never coming back. But there were a lot of people who were hopeful that, you know, we would be able to motivate a larger number, and we got about we got a little more than we did last time, but it wasn't enough to offset all the new people he's brought into the Republican Party, most of whom you know, are are not shall we say, folks deeply read in Burke Kirk, Buckley, et cetera, and are instead like I want to kill all them pedophiles and send them Mexicans back. That's their Republican Party. So the idea that we could somehow and that's two degree groups like ours, like Sarah Longwells, like other folks. It's a dead issue now, and you got to get over wanting to have the Republican Party back now. And again, I've been a very early adopter on that for a very long time, Like not long after the first my first book came out. I was like, Oh, it's not going to work. We're not getting that party back. But people who wanted that party back it's gone now.

I love We're getting it, We're getting to it, We're getting to it. But the whole dream that is dead. That Look, I will say this, I'll take some creditae. I'm an early adopter of abandoning the full Republican thing because it was never coming back. I said it in twenty eighteen. It was never coming back. But there were a lot of people who were hopeful that, you know, we would be able to motivate a larger number, and we got about we got a little more than we did last time, but it wasn't enough to offset all the new people he's brought into the Republican Party, most of whom you know, are are not shall we say, folks deeply read in Burke Kirk, Buckley, et cetera, and are instead like I want to kill all them pedophiles and send them Mexicans back. That's their Republican Party. So the idea that we could somehow and that's two degree groups like ours, like Sarah Longwells, like other folks. It's a dead issue now, and you got to get over wanting to have the Republican Party back now. And again, I've been a very early adopter on that for a very long time, Like not long after the first my first book came out. I was like, Oh, it's not going to work. We're not getting that party back. But people who wanted that party back it's gone now.

I want to also point out, and again I actually thought that the Liz Cheney thing was smart, but actually it turns out that it may have hurt her with the base. Did you see this data for Pride Progress polling.

I want to also point out, and again I actually thought that the Liz Cheney thing was smart, but actually it turns out that it may have hurt her with the base. Did you see this data for Pride Progress polling.

I haven't seen it.

I haven't seen it.

No, So Data for Progress is not without its foibles and without it's you know, it is left leaning. And what might want to get to.

No, So Data for Progress is not without its foibles and without it's you know, it is left leaning. And what might want to get to.

This if by leaning you mean so far it's practically perpendicular, but yes, go on, whatever it is.

This if by leaning you mean so far it's practically perpendicular, but yes, go on, whatever it is.

It's left leaning, and that makes you a little bit upset. But among Pennsylvania and Michigan, independence, messages about Harris's economic platform perform better than messages touting her support from former Republican congress women.

It's left leaning, and that makes you a little bit upset. But among Pennsylvania and Michigan, independence, messages about Harris's economic platform perform better than messages touting her support from former Republican congress women.

Well, of course, this is like saying would you like the would you like the cuttlefish or the vanilla paste?

Well, of course, this is like saying would you like the would you like the cuttlefish or the vanilla paste?

Which one do you want? Because I don't want either of those vanilla paste.

Which one do you want? Because I don't want either of those vanilla paste.

It's a self park joke. It's a self park centipede joke. What I'm saying here is that is one of those logical constructs that isn't really the point. You can have things simultaneously in politics. You could appeal to more moderate conservative voters while having a strong economic policy. And so the vast majority of her ad load, of her communications load, was not about Liz Cheney or Republicans. The vast majority, I would say, probably back of the envelope, somewhere around a five percent of it was about a better deal for Americans, fair deal for Americans, you know, the child tax credit, all the things that she was rightly I thought emphasizing in her campaign. There are a lot of progressives right now who are done to desperately try to say, well, what we really didn't get was enough progressive progressivism in a progressive country. But in case anybody missed the fucking notes, this is not a progressive country. Look it wasn't even as progressive as I modeled.

It's a self park joke. It's a self park centipede joke. What I'm saying here is that is one of those logical constructs that isn't really the point. You can have things simultaneously in politics. You could appeal to more moderate conservative voters while having a strong economic policy. And so the vast majority of her ad load, of her communications load, was not about Liz Cheney or Republicans. The vast majority, I would say, probably back of the envelope, somewhere around a five percent of it was about a better deal for Americans, fair deal for Americans, you know, the child tax credit, all the things that she was rightly I thought emphasizing in her campaign. There are a lot of progressives right now who are done to desperately try to say, well, what we really didn't get was enough progressive progressivism in a progressive country. But in case anybody missed the fucking notes, this is not a progressive country. Look it wasn't even as progressive as I modeled.

Okay, explain this again.

Okay, explain this again.

This country is very much center right, right, Maybe I have to go with the data, and the data tells me very clearly that the country was not moved with sufficient numbers by the core messaging that people had hoped. It wasn't moved any degree. You know, we had we had a bunch of states that voted for pro choice amendments and still elected Donald Trump. That looked like the killer app and everybody's pulling mine and everybody else's and it wasn't. It wasn't. The economic pain argument was one that was that was more easily dismissed by folks on the left and the center. We were like, okay, yeah, the economy's fine, it's getting better. It was bad for a while, it's back, but it wasn't in the minds of the voters that came out. And remember, he activated less likely voters at a level that no one could have anticipated.

This country is very much center right, right, Maybe I have to go with the data, and the data tells me very clearly that the country was not moved with sufficient numbers by the core messaging that people had hoped. It wasn't moved any degree. You know, we had we had a bunch of states that voted for pro choice amendments and still elected Donald Trump. That looked like the killer app and everybody's pulling mine and everybody else's and it wasn't. It wasn't. The economic pain argument was one that was that was more easily dismissed by folks on the left and the center. We were like, okay, yeah, the economy's fine, it's getting better. It was bad for a while, it's back, but it wasn't in the minds of the voters that came out. And remember, he activated less likely voters at a level that no one could have anticipated.

No, no, I know. And he did the same thing he did in twenty sixteen and in twenty twenty, and we kept under astrmating him. But I just want to point out economic populism technically should be the base of the Democratic Party.

No, no, I know. And he did the same thing he did in twenty sixteen and in twenty twenty, and we kept under astrmating him. But I just want to point out economic populism technically should be the base of the Democratic Party.

Well, here's the problem the Democratic Party to and for a ton of reasons, not not related to the campaign, but to the culture and to the disinformation matrix that's out there and to Fox everything else. What the country hears when they hear democratic economic policy, they hear one message, which is smart guys will tell you how to live. Welcome to communism. That's what they hear from Fox every day. It's not true, it's not true, but it's what they hear over and over and over and over again. Donald Trump says, I'm going to fuck people who you hate, and I'm going to throw the Mexicans out, and I'm gonna screw the Chinese over. None of it's true. None of it will work. It will be an economic disaster and a moral disaster. But we have to admit to ourselves that the country is not what we think it is or want it to be. A lot of the time, this country is not as good as we hoped it was on a lot of fronts. And I hate saying that.

Well, here's the problem the Democratic Party to and for a ton of reasons, not not related to the campaign, but to the culture and to the disinformation matrix that's out there and to Fox everything else. What the country hears when they hear democratic economic policy, they hear one message, which is smart guys will tell you how to live. Welcome to communism. That's what they hear from Fox every day. It's not true, it's not true, but it's what they hear over and over and over and over again. Donald Trump says, I'm going to fuck people who you hate, and I'm going to throw the Mexicans out, and I'm gonna screw the Chinese over. None of it's true. None of it will work. It will be an economic disaster and a moral disaster. But we have to admit to ourselves that the country is not what we think it is or want it to be. A lot of the time, this country is not as good as we hoped it was on a lot of fronts. And I hate saying that.

Again. Here's my hottest take. I don't agree. First of all, I think a lot of people just felt that he spoke to them and they liked him, and they didn't necessarily think like, for example, they did not necessarily believe that he was going to do I mean, this was a thing we saw again and again. They didn't believe he was going to do the bad stuff for some reason, and they just didn't think.

Again. Here's my hottest take. I don't agree. First of all, I think a lot of people just felt that he spoke to them and they liked him, and they didn't necessarily think like, for example, they did not necessarily believe that he was going to do I mean, this was a thing we saw again and again. They didn't believe he was going to do the bad stuff for some reason, and they just didn't think.

I have not seen a lot of polling that says that they didn't believe he would not do the bad stuff. I have seen a lot of polling that says they want him to do mass deportations and that they want him to do a jillion percent tariffs against the jinas, the China's not the vaginas.

I have not seen a lot of polling that says that they didn't believe he would not do the bad stuff. I have seen a lot of polling that says they want him to do mass deportations and that they want him to do a jillion percent tariffs against the jinas, the China's not the vaginas.

Yeah, yeah, I got it.

Yeah, yeah, I got it.

But I have seen them express this desire for the things he was selling. And I'm trying to not give America like an extra break here by saying, oh, well, obviously they didn't think. They thought he was joking, he didn't really mean mass deportations. I find that to be a dangerous area for us to go into, to not take him seriously and literally. That's the old joke, you know, you don't take Trump seriously or.

But I have seen them express this desire for the things he was selling. And I'm trying to not give America like an extra break here by saying, oh, well, obviously they didn't think. They thought he was joking, he didn't really mean mass deportations. I find that to be a dangerous area for us to go into, to not take him seriously and literally. That's the old joke, you know, you don't take Trump seriously or.

Literally, right. I mean, it doesn't matter what they wanted, because they're going to get Project twenty twenty.

Literally, right. I mean, it doesn't matter what they wanted, because they're going to get Project twenty twenty.

Five and they're going to get it good and hard. Yeah.

Five and they're going to get it good and hard. Yeah.

Yeah, so let's talk about what that looks like. We got, we got my body and he's now body. Let me tell you he's really not my buddy Russ Vaught.

Yeah, so let's talk about what that looks like. We got, we got my body and he's now body. Let me tell you he's really not my buddy Russ Vaught.

Oh yeah, the great Russ Vought running OMBA.

Oh yeah, the great Russ Vought running OMBA.

And for those of you playing at home, give.

And for those of you playing at home, give.

Us the TLDR on that guy running the Office of Management the budget is he's the guy who will be able to look down at great with great granularity, into the various departments and say, oh, you have a program.

Us the TLDR on that guy running the Office of Management the budget is he's the guy who will be able to look down at great with great granularity, into the various departments and say, oh, you have a program.

Here that might somehow hypothetically relate to climate change. By it's gone. If you don't think Russ Vought and Vivic and Elon will be swap and spit every day and taking long showers together to plot out how to best fuck the American people. That is the guy who's going to push the actual buttons to.

Here that might somehow hypothetically relate to climate change. By it's gone. If you don't think Russ Vought and Vivic and Elon will be swap and spit every day and taking long showers together to plot out how to best fuck the American people. That is the guy who's going to push the actual buttons to.

Do it right. I think it's important to mention that the vac Russ Vaught is like, is a heritage guy, is a He's a Republican donor guy. He is like going to really run this admin. The Veke and Elon have a fake job. Now, whether or not they can do anything with that fake job. We don't know, but the the Department of DOGE is largely a meme.

Do it right. I think it's important to mention that the vac Russ Vaught is like, is a heritage guy, is a He's a Republican donor guy. He is like going to really run this admin. The Veke and Elon have a fake job. Now, whether or not they can do anything with that fake job. We don't know, but the the Department of DOGE is largely a meme.

It is largely a meme. But if they have a relationship with a guy like Russvott, who already has plans. By the way, he will also be pointing those idiots in the direction of targets that he's already identified in Project twenty twenty five. So he's going to say, oh, well, we've gone through the budget line items of every department, and here in the Department of Commerce is a DEI program, or here in the EPA is a climate program, or here in Health and Human Services is something that LGBTQ folks benefit from. He's going to already tell them, and then they'll make it. Then Elon will go, why are we paying for lesbian loot players and the HI just budget or whatever fantasy bullshit he makes up, right, And so then you know, it's sort of a fiendish circle. Vaught and his types will identify the targets they've already set up for execution. Elon and Vivek will make it a giant public screen match.

It is largely a meme. But if they have a relationship with a guy like Russvott, who already has plans. By the way, he will also be pointing those idiots in the direction of targets that he's already identified in Project twenty twenty five. So he's going to say, oh, well, we've gone through the budget line items of every department, and here in the Department of Commerce is a DEI program, or here in the EPA is a climate program, or here in Health and Human Services is something that LGBTQ folks benefit from. He's going to already tell them, and then they'll make it. Then Elon will go, why are we paying for lesbian loot players and the HI just budget or whatever fantasy bullshit he makes up, right, And so then you know, it's sort of a fiendish circle. Vaught and his types will identify the targets they've already set up for execution. Elon and Vivek will make it a giant public screen match.

And do you know who serves as their congressional attache.

And do you know who serves as their congressional attache.

I do not.

I do not.

I can't believe I get to be the one to tell you this, like, I do not know this. Taylor Green is going toal subcommittee.

I can't believe I get to be the one to tell you this, like, I do not know this. Taylor Green is going toal subcommittee.

Now I will say this, Molly, that actually kind of makes me feel better.

Now I will say this, Molly, that actually kind of makes me feel better.

Right. Well, that's what AOC said too. She was like, you know, she's never done the reading once in her life. So good luck to all of you.

Right. Well, that's what AOC said too. She was like, you know, she's never done the reading once in her life. So good luck to all of you.

Look, I have to say the President can do a lot, okay, but the Department of the Office of the Management of the Budget still operates under a number of different areas of congressional control. And those areas of congressional control are set down in law and set down in the Constitution. They appropriate that money, Okay, that is how it's done. Okay, they authorize and appropriate that money. That is how it's done. So one of the things that's going to happen here really quickly is going to discover that every government program is spread out among all fifty seven states or eighty one of Floria. Trump numbers fifty seven states and territories in this great country. Right. So when they say, oh, well, I'll give you a good example. Elon wants to get rid of the rocket that competes with His rocket doesn't really compete very well, but Boeing has this rocket, right, So he's going to say, oh, well, we've got to get rid of the Boeing whatever SLS, whatever it's called, right, and we want to kill that program. The Margie Taylor Green's going to discover that in her district they make some sort of fucking part for that and it employs eighteen people and they're paid one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars a year each, And that happens across the nation. They're going to run into the critical reality wall of government spending, which is that government spending happens everywhere. They're going to also run into the wall that you could cut every discretionary program out there. You could cut the EPA and h justin commerce and everything else down to the bone. Okay, cut it to the bone. You could cut the Pentagon budget in half, and you know what, you still have gigantic debt service and four big social programs that they're not going to get rid of. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the sub category there disability, which has been the one that's exploding. And guess what if you draw a map down Appalachia and the Deep South, that's where disability is happening.

Look, I have to say the President can do a lot, okay, but the Department of the Office of the Management of the Budget still operates under a number of different areas of congressional control. And those areas of congressional control are set down in law and set down in the Constitution. They appropriate that money, Okay, that is how it's done. Okay, they authorize and appropriate that money. That is how it's done. So one of the things that's going to happen here really quickly is going to discover that every government program is spread out among all fifty seven states or eighty one of Floria. Trump numbers fifty seven states and territories in this great country. Right. So when they say, oh, well, I'll give you a good example. Elon wants to get rid of the rocket that competes with His rocket doesn't really compete very well, but Boeing has this rocket, right, So he's going to say, oh, well, we've got to get rid of the Boeing whatever SLS, whatever it's called, right, and we want to kill that program. The Margie Taylor Green's going to discover that in her district they make some sort of fucking part for that and it employs eighteen people and they're paid one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars a year each, And that happens across the nation. They're going to run into the critical reality wall of government spending, which is that government spending happens everywhere. They're going to also run into the wall that you could cut every discretionary program out there. You could cut the EPA and h justin commerce and everything else down to the bone. Okay, cut it to the bone. You could cut the Pentagon budget in half, and you know what, you still have gigantic debt service and four big social programs that they're not going to get rid of. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the sub category there disability, which has been the one that's exploding. And guess what if you draw a map down Appalachia and the Deep South, that's where disability is happening.

Well also, you know disability. We just went through COVID. I mean, I feel like what I'm always struck by by how insane this next admin is going to be is they've learned lessons from COVID, but they've learned all the wrong lessons, right right, So they were like, a million people died and it's because we had vaccine mandates. Right No, no, no, no, that's not why a million people died. I mean, and it's just like every you know, it's like watching a slow motion car wreck. But I actually haven't thought I want you to talk about for a minute because I think this is the thing that is so weird to me. These people, Vivek and Elon are obsessed with technology, right right, These people are RFK Junior. They all hate science. Make it make sense, Well.

Well also, you know disability. We just went through COVID. I mean, I feel like what I'm always struck by by how insane this next admin is going to be is they've learned lessons from COVID, but they've learned all the wrong lessons, right right, So they were like, a million people died and it's because we had vaccine mandates. Right No, no, no, no, that's not why a million people died. I mean, and it's just like every you know, it's like watching a slow motion car wreck. But I actually haven't thought I want you to talk about for a minute because I think this is the thing that is so weird to me. These people, Vivek and Elon are obsessed with technology, right right, These people are RFK Junior. They all hate science. Make it make sense, Well.

They hate a science that somehow identifies in the world that there are social factors that exist. So they hated the fact that there were mask mandates because there was an argument. Correct, I still believe that it would diminish in some way, even at the margins, the spread of COVID, But they felt like that was the government telling them what to do. Now, They're fine telling one what to do with her vagina, but they're not fine with the government saying you should inoculate your or you should vaccinate your kids from measles, mumps, rebellodip theoria, teennis, and polio. Part of it's like this strange San Francisco Bay Silicon Valley WU inflected thing. They believe in engineering more than they believe in science, because science can tell you things about the bigger societal picture than just engineering can.

They hate a science that somehow identifies in the world that there are social factors that exist. So they hated the fact that there were mask mandates because there was an argument. Correct, I still believe that it would diminish in some way, even at the margins, the spread of COVID, But they felt like that was the government telling them what to do. Now, They're fine telling one what to do with her vagina, but they're not fine with the government saying you should inoculate your or you should vaccinate your kids from measles, mumps, rebellodip theoria, teennis, and polio. Part of it's like this strange San Francisco Bay Silicon Valley WU inflected thing. They believe in engineering more than they believe in science, because science can tell you things about the bigger societal picture than just engineering can.

Yeah, I guess that's the only answer. But it just seems to me like if you love technology, you should at least have a nodding as to science.

Yeah, I guess that's the only answer. But it just seems to me like if you love technology, you should at least have a nodding as to science.

You know, look, you ought to, it would be great. But they let me give you another part of what's happening here. There is a belief among this broligarchy, David Sachs and Bill Ackman and Elon Musk and Vivek and all these other people in a lot of ways that they will be the holders of all wisdom and approaches to how things are.

You know, look, you ought to, it would be great. But they let me give you another part of what's happening here. There is a belief among this broligarchy, David Sachs and Bill Ackman and Elon Musk and Vivek and all these other people in a lot of ways that they will be the holders of all wisdom and approaches to how things are.

Done right because they're smarter than everyone else, because somehow they got government subsidies for doing their businesses.

Done right because they're smarter than everyone else, because somehow they got government subsidies for doing their businesses.

Yes, correct, I would be happy for the doge to pass the world that says, no one involved who donates to a political figure, they receive government funding I like, of any kind, and they're no company of anybody who's involved or invested in they receive government funding. And you know what, I promise you that's not going to happen because Elon Musk's entire fortune has been made on the back of the US taxpayer.

Yes, correct, I would be happy for the doge to pass the world that says, no one involved who donates to a political figure, they receive government funding I like, of any kind, and they're no company of anybody who's involved or invested in they receive government funding. And you know what, I promise you that's not going to happen because Elon Musk's entire fortune has been made on the back of the US taxpayer.

Real talk exactly. And now it's true. Now the money he's going to.

Real talk exactly. And now it's true. Now the money he's going to.

Cut, yeah, correct, except for himself. I promise you now, a single dime of SpaceX or Tesla fund that has any government impact will Those will be the most meritorious spending items in the entire budget.

Cut, yeah, correct, except for himself. I promise you now, a single dime of SpaceX or Tesla fund that has any government impact will Those will be the most meritorious spending items in the entire budget.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No.

No.

The whole idea that you're going to bring some outside billionaire who's never done government into cut costs is very stupid. But this is all going to get very stupid, very fast.

The whole idea that you're going to bring some outside billionaire who's never done government into cut costs is very stupid. But this is all going to get very stupid, very fast.

At the end of the Cold War, we have this thing called the Base Realignment and Closure Commission, because we had like seven hundred or nine hundred military bases in this country. At the end of the Cold War, we realized and we don't need all this anymore. Right, You had people from the most progressive fuck the military, burn the military to the ground liberal types to hardcore conservatives. Every one of them was like, oh no, Fort John Jones in my district, even though it hasn't hasn't been used since the War of eighteen fucking twelve, is essential to national defense. All of it is like, you're going to see the blowback that's going to happen on the doge from Congress itself, including from some of its most concernive members. They're gonna be like, wait, what They're great, true, true wake up call. It's going to be glorious. Rick Wilson as always happy to be with you and happy to be right.

At the end of the Cold War, we have this thing called the Base Realignment and Closure Commission, because we had like seven hundred or nine hundred military bases in this country. At the end of the Cold War, we realized and we don't need all this anymore. Right, You had people from the most progressive fuck the military, burn the military to the ground liberal types to hardcore conservatives. Every one of them was like, oh no, Fort John Jones in my district, even though it hasn't hasn't been used since the War of eighteen fucking twelve, is essential to national defense. All of it is like, you're going to see the blowback that's going to happen on the doge from Congress itself, including from some of its most concernive members. They're gonna be like, wait, what They're great, true, true wake up call. It's going to be glorious. Rick Wilson as always happy to be with you and happy to be right.

Well, not totally right, but sure. Roger mcnamie is the author of Zucht Waking Up to the Facebook Catastrophe. Welcome to past politics, Roger.

Well, not totally right, but sure. Roger mcnamie is the author of Zucht Waking Up to the Facebook Catastrophe. Welcome to past politics, Roger.

It is a great pleasure moment.

It is a great pleasure moment.

Thank you for having me. Oh, we're so excited to have you. We are in such a strange moment in American life.

Thank you for having me. Oh, we're so excited to have you. We are in such a strange moment in American life.

But you saw those coming, well, Molly, I have some advantages. I first went to Silicon Valley in nineteen eighty two, back when seriously it was a completely different world, you know. I followed the siren call of Steve Jobs to both create technology that would empower people, increase productivity, and frankly, make the world a better place. From nineteen eighty two until the financial crisis, it was really exciting. Silicon Valley produced a lot of things. But beginning, you know, two thousand and nine twenty ten, the tech industry discovered that post financial crisis, that they no longer had to make products that were good for people or that empowered them. That they could use data and the free capital that was available because interest rates were essentially zero for a long time, they could get unprecedented amounts of capital and use technology to exploit human weakness. And so the whole industry went from being the most exciting, dynamic, positive contribute to our economy to becoming the greatest threat to democracy, public health, and civil liberties that the country has seen in a very very long tut And all of that became clear to me in twenty sixteen.

But you saw those coming, well, Molly, I have some advantages. I first went to Silicon Valley in nineteen eighty two, back when seriously it was a completely different world, you know. I followed the siren call of Steve Jobs to both create technology that would empower people, increase productivity, and frankly, make the world a better place. From nineteen eighty two until the financial crisis, it was really exciting. Silicon Valley produced a lot of things. But beginning, you know, two thousand and nine twenty ten, the tech industry discovered that post financial crisis, that they no longer had to make products that were good for people or that empowered them. That they could use data and the free capital that was available because interest rates were essentially zero for a long time, they could get unprecedented amounts of capital and use technology to exploit human weakness. And so the whole industry went from being the most exciting, dynamic, positive contribute to our economy to becoming the greatest threat to democracy, public health, and civil liberties that the country has seen in a very very long tut And all of that became clear to me in twenty sixteen.

Was it the election that made you.

Was it the election that made you.

Know, oh, interesting, No, it was way before the election. So keep in mind, I'd been involved as an investor in technology companies, and I'd been a mentor to Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook and to Cheryl Samberg. I brought them together so that was all in from two thousand and six to two thousand and nine.

Know, oh, interesting, No, it was way before the election. So keep in mind, I'd been involved as an investor in technology companies, and I'd been a mentor to Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook and to Cheryl Samberg. I brought them together so that was all in from two thousand and six to two thousand and nine.

Some was said Tobate that you mentor before we discovered that they're evil. Sorry you try.

Some was said Tobate that you mentor before we discovered that they're evil. Sorry you try.

That was certainly true for me. Yeah, when I knew them well, I both respected them both and I liked them both. And there were signs that they had shall we say, big dreams. But that's not an uncommon thing with entrepreneurs. It's just in two thousand and six, if you had really bad intention, the technology itself didn't allow you to hurt people at large scale. That really didn't happen until cell phones had enough bandwidth to do videos. So at that point there were no limitations on what you could do with technology. And the key thing in early twenty sixteen, I started to see disinformation, really hate speech targeted Hillary Clinton. It was virallly spreading through Facebook, and I went, oh, that doesn't look good. And then there were some civil rights things that happened, and then Breggs it in the United Kingdom in June twenty sixteen. The outcome was such a huge shock. Literally it was an eight point swing from what the polls had suggested the day before the referendum, and it occurred to me that Facebook was probably the only reasonable explanation for how.

That was certainly true for me. Yeah, when I knew them well, I both respected them both and I liked them both. And there were signs that they had shall we say, big dreams. But that's not an uncommon thing with entrepreneurs. It's just in two thousand and six, if you had really bad intention, the technology itself didn't allow you to hurt people at large scale. That really didn't happen until cell phones had enough bandwidth to do videos. So at that point there were no limitations on what you could do with technology. And the key thing in early twenty sixteen, I started to see disinformation, really hate speech targeted Hillary Clinton. It was virallly spreading through Facebook, and I went, oh, that doesn't look good. And then there were some civil rights things that happened, and then Breggs it in the United Kingdom in June twenty sixteen. The outcome was such a huge shock. Literally it was an eight point swing from what the polls had suggested the day before the referendum, and it occurred to me that Facebook was probably the only reasonable explanation for how.

That had happened.

That had happened.

And then in the summer of twenty sixteen, we discovered that Paul Maniford is shall we say, affiliated with Russian oligarchs.

And then in the summer of twenty sixteen, we discovered that Paul Maniford is shall we say, affiliated with Russian oligarchs.

You'll remember that from season one. Trump as does continue exactly.

You'll remember that from season one. Trump as does continue exactly.

But all of that really scared me. So I wrote up a thing which was originally going to be an op ed, but I'd never written an op ed before, and so it took me a long time to do it. Before I published it, I sent it to Mark Zuckerberg and Schaw Sandberg to warn them. So this is nine days before the presidential election twenty sixteen. Saint guys, I am really terrified because Facebook, this company had been deeply involved, is being used by bad actors to undermine democracy and civil rights. And as your former mentor, what I'm saying to you is, I don't think you want your company to be associated with undermining democracy and civil rights that, even if you aren't morally interested in it. Right, it's a bad business strategy, and long story, sure everybody knows what happens.

But all of that really scared me. So I wrote up a thing which was originally going to be an op ed, but I'd never written an op ed before, and so it took me a long time to do it. Before I published it, I sent it to Mark Zuckerberg and Schaw Sandberg to warn them. So this is nine days before the presidential election twenty sixteen. Saint guys, I am really terrified because Facebook, this company had been deeply involved, is being used by bad actors to undermine democracy and civil rights. And as your former mentor, what I'm saying to you is, I don't think you want your company to be associated with undermining democracy and civil rights that, even if you aren't morally interested in it. Right, it's a bad business strategy, and long story, sure everybody knows what happens.

They were like, no, it's a good business strategy.

They were like, no, it's a good business strategy.

No, no, no, no, Actually it was more cynical than that. There's a term of art at Silicon Valley when somebody is really nice to and smiley at you, but doing the opposite of what you want to do. It's called grin fucking. And that's what they did to me. And they couldn't have been more polite, and they could not have been less interested in acting. And so I became an activist. I went to Congress, I went to state attorneys general, I talked to governors. You know, I did work with believe it or not, I worked with the Trump administration and the Trust people, all trying to get them to recognize that uncontrolled Silicon Valley representatives to everything that we value in America, democracy, public health, civil liberties, you know, just the whole function of our society. And it wasn't because they were banned people. It was because they perceived that what their mission was, you know, in the case of Mark Zuckerberg connecting the whole world on a communications network that he managed, that that was so important that it justified any harm that might result from it. And you know, my view was that, let's face it, we've been through things like this with automobiles, with tobacco, with aircraft, with lead and paint. Right, there are been zillions of examples of the government is actually government acting to ensure safety, to ensure protection of civil rights, and to preserve competition. So I argued for those three things, and you know a lot of people listened. We had lots of conversations, and nothing happened. So twenty twenty comes along, and in twenty twenty, Phase Book's role was different that in twenty sixteen. You know, the Russians want to advertise and Facebook goes, well, they're a good customer, and they offered their services both to Trump and to Clinton. Clinton said no, and the Facebook guys threw themselves into helping Trump win, and together with Cambridge Analytica, they matched thirty million Facebook user IDs to voter files, which allowed them, from a targeting point of view, to have a level of accuracy in targeting that it never occurred.

No, no, no, no, Actually it was more cynical than that. There's a term of art at Silicon Valley when somebody is really nice to and smiley at you, but doing the opposite of what you want to do. It's called grin fucking. And that's what they did to me. And they couldn't have been more polite, and they could not have been less interested in acting. And so I became an activist. I went to Congress, I went to state attorneys general, I talked to governors. You know, I did work with believe it or not, I worked with the Trump administration and the Trust people, all trying to get them to recognize that uncontrolled Silicon Valley representatives to everything that we value in America, democracy, public health, civil liberties, you know, just the whole function of our society. And it wasn't because they were banned people. It was because they perceived that what their mission was, you know, in the case of Mark Zuckerberg connecting the whole world on a communications network that he managed, that that was so important that it justified any harm that might result from it. And you know, my view was that, let's face it, we've been through things like this with automobiles, with tobacco, with aircraft, with lead and paint. Right, there are been zillions of examples of the government is actually government acting to ensure safety, to ensure protection of civil rights, and to preserve competition. So I argued for those three things, and you know a lot of people listened. We had lots of conversations, and nothing happened. So twenty twenty comes along, and in twenty twenty, Phase Book's role was different that in twenty sixteen. You know, the Russians want to advertise and Facebook goes, well, they're a good customer, and they offered their services both to Trump and to Clinton. Clinton said no, and the Facebook guys threw themselves into helping Trump win, and together with Cambridge Analytica, they matched thirty million Facebook user IDs to voter files, which allowed them, from a targeting point of view, to have a level of accuracy in targeting that it never occurred.

At politics previously.

At politics previously.

And they used to just suppress the votes of black people, suburban women, and young voters in target states. How did they get that information? Was that because Russia hacked the Democratic National Committee and the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. We don't know, because nobody ever really investigated, but they had perfect targeting and they suppressed those votes and Trump won in twenty twenty. It was different because in the lead up to twenty twenty we had COVID, and during COVID, QAnon, which were the guys who were around Pizza gain were they were like super active, and Facebook could have kept all those people at the fringes. But their business model is different than that. Their business model is about getting people's attention, and the way you do that is with fear and outrage. Not because everybody reacts to that, but because probably half the population reacts to that more than anything else, and half the population is enough, and so they even after the FBI warned them in May of twenty nineteen, Facebook continued to allow QAnon to prosper. And then when COVID broke out, Facebook had already been at place where they have these things called facebo, people who have a shared interest get together, and one of the core ones was is groups for new mothers, and people who were anti vaxers infiltrated these new mothers groups, and the anti vaxers were essentially indoctrinating new mothers to be anti vax The q and on guys saw this, and they aimed at the anti vaxers and subsumed them. The Trump campaign saw this and went, wow, these are our people, and so they went and MAGA essentially merged with q Andon. That's why Trump spent the summer of twenty twenty putting out all those tweets about q and on stuff and so Facebook. You know, if they had been more worried about democracy and profits, they would have stopped this, but they did just the opposite. And of course then Trump began to stop the steal. And all of that was organized in Facebook groups right up to the right up to the insurrection. And I had written my book two years earlier, and I talked about the fact that Facebook groups, because there's no police, a lot of bad things happen in them, and if you don't controlled them in some way, eventually we were going to have an insurrection. And son of a Gun it actually happened at Genuar of twenty twenty one, and we had a whistleblower, Francis Hoguand who brought out all the paperwork and said, all the people on Facebook knew all about this. And you know you're sitting there going, okay, wow, that's really bad. Well, in twenty twenty four, it took one step even worse than that, which is that people in Silicon Valley stop pretending to be neutral. You know, obviously the most extreme example is Musk, but they all were pretty tightly aligned with Trump. And you know, the problem is that Silicon Valley controls the most important communication systems we have in the country, in fact, in the whole world. And so we go into this thing in a year at which fifty four percent of American adults cannot read above a sixth grade level. So, you know, public education, which has been crushed for forty years, has put us on this point where a lot of people vulnerable to manipulation, and these technology products, which are designed for manipulation are aligned with the forces that are against democracy. And that's how we wound up where we are today. So it didn't matter how good a campaign the vice president ran. The people on the other side never heard any of it.

And they used to just suppress the votes of black people, suburban women, and young voters in target states. How did they get that information? Was that because Russia hacked the Democratic National Committee and the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. We don't know, because nobody ever really investigated, but they had perfect targeting and they suppressed those votes and Trump won in twenty twenty. It was different because in the lead up to twenty twenty we had COVID, and during COVID, QAnon, which were the guys who were around Pizza gain were they were like super active, and Facebook could have kept all those people at the fringes. But their business model is different than that. Their business model is about getting people's attention, and the way you do that is with fear and outrage. Not because everybody reacts to that, but because probably half the population reacts to that more than anything else, and half the population is enough, and so they even after the FBI warned them in May of twenty nineteen, Facebook continued to allow QAnon to prosper. And then when COVID broke out, Facebook had already been at place where they have these things called facebo, people who have a shared interest get together, and one of the core ones was is groups for new mothers, and people who were anti vaxers infiltrated these new mothers groups, and the anti vaxers were essentially indoctrinating new mothers to be anti vax The q and on guys saw this, and they aimed at the anti vaxers and subsumed them. The Trump campaign saw this and went, wow, these are our people, and so they went and MAGA essentially merged with q Andon. That's why Trump spent the summer of twenty twenty putting out all those tweets about q and on stuff and so Facebook. You know, if they had been more worried about democracy and profits, they would have stopped this, but they did just the opposite. And of course then Trump began to stop the steal. And all of that was organized in Facebook groups right up to the right up to the insurrection. And I had written my book two years earlier, and I talked about the fact that Facebook groups, because there's no police, a lot of bad things happen in them, and if you don't controlled them in some way, eventually we were going to have an insurrection. And son of a Gun it actually happened at Genuar of twenty twenty one, and we had a whistleblower, Francis Hoguand who brought out all the paperwork and said, all the people on Facebook knew all about this. And you know you're sitting there going, okay, wow, that's really bad. Well, in twenty twenty four, it took one step even worse than that, which is that people in Silicon Valley stop pretending to be neutral. You know, obviously the most extreme example is Musk, but they all were pretty tightly aligned with Trump. And you know, the problem is that Silicon Valley controls the most important communication systems we have in the country, in fact, in the whole world. And so we go into this thing in a year at which fifty four percent of American adults cannot read above a sixth grade level. So, you know, public education, which has been crushed for forty years, has put us on this point where a lot of people vulnerable to manipulation, and these technology products, which are designed for manipulation are aligned with the forces that are against democracy. And that's how we wound up where we are today. So it didn't matter how good a campaign the vice president ran. The people on the other side never heard any of it.

So I want you to the anti vax QAnon stuff is really interesting to me, and had not I absolutely did not, for whatever reason, totally thread the needle on that. So can you explain that to us a little bit?

So I want you to the anti vax QAnon stuff is really interesting to me, and had not I absolutely did not, for whatever reason, totally thread the needle on that. So can you explain that to us a little bit?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Sure, So here's The way to think about it, if you look at the post mortems on the twenty twenty four election, people talked about Fox News and they talk about, you know, the various right wing podcasters, right, and the Democrats that had nothing to match that. The thing that they're missing is that Fox News Joe Rogan their audiences are what five million, maybe ten million at tops.

Sure, So here's The way to think about it, if you look at the post mortems on the twenty twenty four election, people talked about Fox News and they talk about, you know, the various right wing podcasters, right, and the Democrats that had nothing to match that. The thing that they're missing is that Fox News Joe Rogan their audiences are what five million, maybe ten million at tops.

I mean those Joe Rogan clips got to sixty nine million people.

I mean those Joe Rogan clips got to sixty nine million people.

Oh no, I believe that. Sorry, I believe that. But how did they get there? They got there because Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube right, which is owned by Google, and Twitter elevated them. Are these platforms that were aligned with Trump's positions, right, And the thing that I think really matters is that you roughly eighty million people voted for Trump. How many people are in maggot, I don't know. It's it eighty is, at sixties, at one hundred, it doesn't matter. You can't sustain a collective dilution right right, at the scale of sixty to one hundred million people with things that only have an audience of five million. So the role that these things play is gigantic. So if you go back to anti vas the problem with Facebook, and Facebook really is worse than the other guys on this issue, but they all contribute to it, is that Facebook's whole business model is taking ideas from the fringe, things that historically before Internet platforms existed, were just people, you know, flat earthers and all that, where people are just screaming into a void and nobody listening. Facebook business strategy was to mainstream all those ideas, and in the context of anti vax and in the context of MAGA, in the context to stop the steal, and in the context of the twenty twenty four election. What that meant was that you could literally create an alternate reality with roughly half the voters all completely involved and uncouched by reality. And you know, there's an Adam Surwer thing in The Atlantic this week where he's talking about the fact that there's going to be some buyer's remorse because the alternate reality is so unhinged that a lot of the people have voted for Trump don't believe he's actually going to do the things he's already doing.

Oh no, I believe that. Sorry, I believe that. But how did they get there? They got there because Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube right, which is owned by Google, and Twitter elevated them. Are these platforms that were aligned with Trump's positions, right, And the thing that I think really matters is that you roughly eighty million people voted for Trump. How many people are in maggot, I don't know. It's it eighty is, at sixties, at one hundred, it doesn't matter. You can't sustain a collective dilution right right, at the scale of sixty to one hundred million people with things that only have an audience of five million. So the role that these things play is gigantic. So if you go back to anti vas the problem with Facebook, and Facebook really is worse than the other guys on this issue, but they all contribute to it, is that Facebook's whole business model is taking ideas from the fringe, things that historically before Internet platforms existed, were just people, you know, flat earthers and all that, where people are just screaming into a void and nobody listening. Facebook business strategy was to mainstream all those ideas, and in the context of anti vax and in the context of MAGA, in the context to stop the steal, and in the context of the twenty twenty four election. What that meant was that you could literally create an alternate reality with roughly half the voters all completely involved and uncouched by reality. And you know, there's an Adam Surwer thing in The Atlantic this week where he's talking about the fact that there's going to be some buyer's remorse because the alternate reality is so unhinged that a lot of the people have voted for Trump don't believe he's actually going to do the things he's already doing.

I want to get into that because that was something I absolutely saw, was that I really noticed this when you would when you would talk to voters, or when you would look at the data, is that a lot of these voters, You would say, well, Trump is going to do this, and they would say, no, he's not going to do it. At the RNC, they had signs that said mass deportation. Now, when you talk to voters you would say, you know, for example, like the large number of Latino voters at the border in the Rio Grande Valley who voted for Trump, they would say, well, yeah, but it's not he's not going to do it, or it's not going to do it that way, or it's not going to happen to us. There was a real inability to sort of suspension of disbelief. I always thought it was because Trump wasn't able to do the kind of stuff he had wanted to the first time around.

I want to get into that because that was something I absolutely saw, was that I really noticed this when you would when you would talk to voters, or when you would look at the data, is that a lot of these voters, You would say, well, Trump is going to do this, and they would say, no, he's not going to do it. At the RNC, they had signs that said mass deportation. Now, when you talk to voters you would say, you know, for example, like the large number of Latino voters at the border in the Rio Grande Valley who voted for Trump, they would say, well, yeah, but it's not he's not going to do it, or it's not going to do it that way, or it's not going to happen to us. There was a real inability to sort of suspension of disbelief. I always thought it was because Trump wasn't able to do the kind of stuff he had wanted to the first time around.

I don't know.

I don't know.

What I do know, though, is that a vote for Trump wasn't necessarily a vote for what he was advocating, but it was always a vote against Biden and the irony. The irony is that somehow the Democrats were unable to get credit for the Inflation Reduction Act and the various things that they did post COVID that essentially allowed the US economy to prosper in a way that no other economy in the world did, and for Americans to be protected in a way that the citizens of other countries were not, and they got no credit for that. Now, that may have been a flaw in the way the campaign was run, but it is customary in America for presidential elections to be referendum on whoever's in office, and prices are demonstrably higher than they were in twenty twenty. Biden got nailed with that, notwithstanding the fact that personal incomes are way up, employment is maxed out, and a lot of the services on which people depend have been financed in a way that helps it awful lot of people. And all of that's going to go away under Trump. Right, all of that's I mean, his strategy when he came in the first time was to undo everything that Obama did, and I assume his strategy will be underdo everything.

What I do know, though, is that a vote for Trump wasn't necessarily a vote for what he was advocating, but it was always a vote against Biden and the irony. The irony is that somehow the Democrats were unable to get credit for the Inflation Reduction Act and the various things that they did post COVID that essentially allowed the US economy to prosper in a way that no other economy in the world did, and for Americans to be protected in a way that the citizens of other countries were not, and they got no credit for that. Now, that may have been a flaw in the way the campaign was run, but it is customary in America for presidential elections to be referendum on whoever's in office, and prices are demonstrably higher than they were in twenty twenty. Biden got nailed with that, notwithstanding the fact that personal incomes are way up, employment is maxed out, and a lot of the services on which people depend have been financed in a way that helps it awful lot of people. And all of that's going to go away under Trump. Right, all of that's I mean, his strategy when he came in the first time was to undo everything that Obama did, and I assume his strategy will be underdo everything.

I assume this will not be better.

I assume this will not be better.

Yes, right, Meanwhile, they will claim credit, they will claim credit for all the things that Biden did, right, because you saw those polls that showed that sentiment about the economy isn't actually about the economy, it's about is your side winning or not right, So Republicans the minute the election was done, Republicans suddenly think the economy looks great. All of that is I mean, it's really disturbing because history suggests when you get a change life, when people come into power whose goal is to destroy, it's a lot easier direct things than this to build. It's not certain that we can recover quickly. You know, for example, we may not be able to recover as quickly from the second Trump term as we did from the first, And recovering from the first one was obviously we had some very fortunate things that happened, and Biden did some brilliant things, but Democrats didn't get re elected for doing.

Yes, right, Meanwhile, they will claim credit, they will claim credit for all the things that Biden did, right, because you saw those polls that showed that sentiment about the economy isn't actually about the economy, it's about is your side winning or not right, So Republicans the minute the election was done, Republicans suddenly think the economy looks great. All of that is I mean, it's really disturbing because history suggests when you get a change life, when people come into power whose goal is to destroy, it's a lot easier direct things than this to build. It's not certain that we can recover quickly. You know, for example, we may not be able to recover as quickly from the second Trump term as we did from the first, And recovering from the first one was obviously we had some very fortunate things that happened, and Biden did some brilliant things, but Democrats didn't get re elected for doing.

All of that.

All of that.

And you know, after this next one, you know, we may be looking at today and going, you know what those were before times that those were the times we really love, That's when we were happy, and you know, we may be dealing with less of everything from here. I just don't know.

And you know, after this next one, you know, we may be looking at today and going, you know what those were before times that those were the times we really love, That's when we were happy, and you know, we may be dealing with less of everything from here. I just don't know.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's right, and I also think I think two things. One I think that's right, and two I don't think that there's any world in which I mean, yeah, I think that's right. Because the problem was inequality, and so the people elected a nefarious billionaire with the hopes that he would somehow fix it. I want you to give me like a two minute prescription on how you solve this incredibly enormous problem.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's right, and I also think I think two things. One I think that's right, and two I don't think that there's any world in which I mean, yeah, I think that's right. Because the problem was inequality, and so the people elected a nefarious billionaire with the hopes that he would somehow fix it. I want you to give me like a two minute prescription on how you solve this incredibly enormous problem.

We have to change our relationship to technology. We have an irrational trust in technology and a belief that anything new is better than what came before it. Neither of those things is true today. People should be not just skeptical but afraid of crypto. They should not just be skeptical but afraid of generative artificial intelligence. These are not products designed to make your life better. These are products designing to extract value from you and leave you worse off to the benefit of the people who are in control. And we need to change our relationship, and we need to do it now. So you and I are both on Blue Scott. Challenge with Blue Skot is that it's not obvious to me that there is a technology solution to the problems we face today. And because it's highly centralized, the incentives from Blue Sky are no different than they were for Twitter or Facebook or Instagram.

We have to change our relationship to technology. We have an irrational trust in technology and a belief that anything new is better than what came before it. Neither of those things is true today. People should be not just skeptical but afraid of crypto. They should not just be skeptical but afraid of generative artificial intelligence. These are not products designed to make your life better. These are products designing to extract value from you and leave you worse off to the benefit of the people who are in control. And we need to change our relationship, and we need to do it now. So you and I are both on Blue Scott. Challenge with Blue Skot is that it's not obvious to me that there is a technology solution to the problems we face today. And because it's highly centralized, the incentives from Blue Sky are no different than they were for Twitter or Facebook or Instagram.

So they could get sold.

So they could get sold.

Or they could monetize in a way that is extractive, and what we need to do quickly is to work with the team and find a way to make it a subscription model or some model that isn't dependent on our data because the incentives are totally screwed up.

Or they could monetize in a way that is extractive, and what we need to do quickly is to work with the team and find a way to make it a subscription model or some model that isn't dependent on our data because the incentives are totally screwed up.

Have you talked to them?

Have you talked to them?

I have not.

I have not.

I don't know them, and I would love to meet them because what they have done is truly amazing. But the core thing is we can't be looking for silver bullets here. I think this is going to require all of us remembering that community comes first.

I don't know them, and I would love to meet them because what they have done is truly amazing. But the core thing is we can't be looking for silver bullets here. I think this is going to require all of us remembering that community comes first.

We have to care about other people.

We have to care about other people.

You know that Reagan's admonition that we're all the Marlborough man that was wrong, That was dangerous. That's what led us to where we are now. Not because Regan was a bad guy, but just because that was a dumb idea that at the end of the day, we need each other and we need to respect each other and to be supportive, to acknowledge that there are folks whose very nature makes them potential victims of what's going on. Now we have to defend them.