Fast Politics with Molly Jong-FastMSNBC's Mehdi Hasan criticizes the GOP's impeachment hearing for President Biden as lacking substance. Daniel Squadron from The States Project explains how his organization assists Democrats in state-level politics. NPR's Steve Inskeep provides details about his new book, Differ We Must: How Lincoln Succeeded in a Divided America.
Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, where we discuss the top political headlines with some of today's best minds. And Matt Gates said he will attempt to oust Kevin McCarthy from the speakership. This week, we have an amazing show for you today, The States Projects Daniel Squadron talks to us about how his organization helps Democrats. We'll talk to NPR Steve Inskeep. He'll tell us about his new book Different. We must how Lincoln succeeded in a divided America.
But first we have the.
Author of Win Every Argument. MSNBC's Madi Hassan. Welcome back to Fast Politics, Maddie.
Thank you for having me.
Momie, I hope you were watching those quote unquote impeachment hearings with the same sort of unbelievable shodenfreude that I was discussed.
It was hilarious. I have to say.
It was so much worse for the Republicans that I thought it would be. I think we all thought it would be bad for the Republicans. Anyone who's been following the Hunter hundred stuff for years, there's.
No there there.
I thought they would at least have some kind of you know, as Neil Cavuto FOP Post put it yesterday, we thought there would be smoke and there might be some fire to go with the smoke, but there was just more smoke on top of smoke.
They were so unprepared. And I keep saying that, I've been saying this for years.
The only reason we are not in a fully complete fascist state in America right now is because, thankfully, the fascist on offerers so incompetent. And that applies to Donald Trump, that applies to all of these House Republican freaks.
They're just so bad at their jobs.
We are lucky that we are not up against smart and savvy fascists, and there are smart and savy Faschis out there, but the ones in charge of the.
GOP right now are just so incompetent.
Whether it's Kevin McCarthy, whether it's Jim Jordan, whether it's James Comer, Byron Donald's rising star, you know, admitting to evidence a text it Alexandria Costick pares a part. It's just a completely out of context doctor Meanich. And this is what they did, and it was so bad that their own aids are going around briefing CNN of all people saying, oh my god, this was a disaster.
This was a catastrophe.
You have Steve Bannon in real time being quoted by Democrats in the inquiry, while he says on his show in real time, why do we have these witnesses? Why were they not on the maybe list? Why is it so going so badly? So, yeah, it was a disaster. On one hand, it was fun to watch. On the other hand, let's remind ourselves by them doing this, not only are they degrading Congress, degrading impeachment, but of course there's a government shutdown coming as well, so it's an insult. All these people are going to lose paychecks on Monday morning.
Yeah. I did think that was incredible stuff.
And I think it's really important to note that there really is like their job is actually to govern, and you know, it was fun to watch, but ultimately the American people suffer.
They've made it clear that isn't their job. I mean, they're not hiding it. Their job is not to govern. Their job is to own the Libs. Their job is to perform. Their job is to be on Fox.
I think Maxwell Frost had a great line about Jonathan Turny, thank you for stopping by here on your way to your neck Fox here.
That sums them up perfectly.
And John Bayner said this years ago in his memoir that I was dealing with a crazy right wing caucus. He said, where Michelle Backman If I turned her down? She said, when I'm going on Hannity tonight to criticize you like that has been the plan for years. That is what they do. I mean, there's a great supercut. I'm sure you spend as much time as I do, on a healthy amount of time on Twitter as I do. Molly, you've seen, I'm sure the supercut of Ted Cruz just saying on my podcast, on my podcast, on my podcast, on my podcast, he's a podcaster first, a senator from the great state of Texas second.
And that is who these people are.
They're not interested in governing, to the point where New Gingrich is telling the Washington Post today, I think this is nuts. What are they doing a shutdown for? Even New Gingrich, the master of nihilistic politics, have burn it all down of confrontation. Even he doesn't understand what is going on with the shutdown and ask for the impeachment inquiry. Yeah, they're doing it for the sake of doing it. But with Bill Clinton at least there was something there. With this, there's literally nothing. They've got nothing on the Biden and all that yesterday was was a great opportunity, as you and I both pointed out in separate tweets, for House Democrats to say, hey, look at our young and upcoming stars.
Especially with people of color.
Look at Maxwell Frost owning the Republicans. Look at Jasmine Crockett in that amazing passionate viral moment Summer Lee obviously AOSC who is known for years doing fantastic well. These people were just knocking it out of the park one after another, and it's just a reminder of how good the quote unquote Democratic benches that were often told is not deep, and how bad the Republican leadership.
Yeah, I mean I was watching.
There were so many of these Republicans just like mediocre white guys with red ties sitting there sort of looking embarrassed.
People you've never heard of. And they found me like Oligo Glock. The other guy couldn't say olig That.
Was my favorite word.
There's no quality control on half of the American political spectrum.
Well, we have an education problem in this country, but that is for another day. I just want to get back to New Gingridge, Like New Gangridge was the architect of all of these kind of like shutdowns for shutdowns sake and the government to burn it down and this sort of Marxist zeal.
But my question for you is this now here we are?
This shutdown even seems like as shutdowns go, it's basically mad Gates thinking he's acting on the behest of Donald Trump, which he probably is versus Kevin McCarthy.
There's not some other thing here that we're not seeing, right, No.
It is an intra republican squabble between Kevin McCarthy and maccate. I think is post of Politico is some outlet to thatcarmam which one has a great piece about how it's so personal between them, and there's a really depressing graph and the piece about how i ardly they both are annoyed and they're jealous that Donald Trump likes one over the other. They both think Trump likes the other one more. Imagine bringing the country to a screeching halt because you want Donald Trump to love you more than your colleague. I mean it tells you everything about the Republican body. And just to go about to New Gingridge, Like when New gingridg as you say, the architect of burn it down of government shutdowns is saying, what are we doing here? This is nuts? It's like, I don't know. It's like Jack the Rippa saying you're killing too many people?
Like what is going on here? What on earth are we do?
Wherever the Republican Party reached And you know, Jamie Raskin had a great lad in the impeachment inquiry accident, and this is a Seinfeld impeachment, right, It's an impeachament about nothing, and the same line as being applied to the shutdown. It's a Seinfeld shutdown. It's about nothing. Whatever you think about the old GOP shutdowns, which were also absurd, at least they were about something. Right in twenty eighteen nineteen, it was about funding the border wall. A decade ago, it was about ACA, Obamacare, all of that nonsense that they opposed. Now it's about literally, what are shutting the governor? What's your demand? Didn't have one?
Right?
I kind of want to talk about Representative Tony Gonzales.
He is in Republican leadership.
But yesterday he was not focused on the government shut down, nor was he focused on the quote unquote impeachment.
He was on a little trip with our are a good friend.
He was with the owner of x dot com formerly known as Twitter, who I don't understand. I know, I sound silly, a knaghy, and this is a gender This is not genuine question. What was Elon Musk doing at the border? Like why he's not running for president? By the way his stands may want him to be president, He can never be president, thankfully.
Not born in this country.
Yeah, the one blessing of our lives. And what is he doing there?
Like is the CEO of BMW going to the border tomorrow. I know we've become numb to this, Molly, but the guy runs a car company and owned the social media with it. What is he doing there? And least when Mark Zuckerberg went on this tour of Americas because we thought he might run for president in twenty twenty, thankfully he did not. What I don't understand, no one even we've reached this weird part of celebrity politics now where no one even asks why is he at the border. We're just expressed to think that's normal. He turns up the border in a cowboy hat that apparently I'm no expot on cobwoin. He was wearing it backwards. You know, that's how it is to be the richest around in the world. None of your sycophantic staff will tell you, boss, you got the cap on the wrong way round, nor will the.
Congressman who's hosting you, presumably news. It's so busy.
He turns up there and then he goes live on ck the video and then stops working. There's reporting that he blasted his staff and said make this work, which is so ironic.
By the way.
On a side, I've be watching a lot of Elon Musk recently for my sins because I did a long He's a shameless plug for that Mary Hussen show. This week we did a long, deep dive into hate on Twitter, which must claims doesn't exist. You remember that time he said to the BBC reporter, name me an example, and the reporter foolishly can't do it. So we've gone through two dozen examples of tweets that are up, including Musk's own anti Semitic tweet. But anyways, we did that, so we watched a lot of Musk footage. When you watch musks, A lot of us don't watch Musk, right, we see his tweet, actually watch him speak as he was yesterday. My god, the man lacks charisma. My god, the man struggles to deliver a sentence. My god, the man is a bad speaker. He's just got nothing to say, which is probably why he spends so much time on his keyboard. So I just found that fascinating that, like, you know, why are you there. You're not very good at what you're doing. Your platfor is working on a day when your CEO also had a meltdown.
The day after that.
Yeah, so that was interesting.
The whole thing is bizarre. And as AOC said, what's the congressman doing there? Why is he not on the Capitol Hill trying to protect his constituents from an unnecessary shutdown? A shut down by the way, let's just put a bow on all of this which they're causing.
They're causing.
It will cost the CBP millions dollars, As Mitchell McConnell pointed out, their beloved border patrol and Border protection is going to get cut in funding when the government shuts down.
How ironic.
But the thing that I.
Don't understand about it is it's true he owns a car company, but he also owns a large percentage of American satellites. So this is not like the CEO of Overstock acting out right. This is a person for whom his opinions, as we found out with the use or abuse of starlink, right, has real consequences.
Right.
He turned off starlink so that the Ukrainians couldn't attack the Russians because he felt again and there are many, many different reasons why that have been offered, but we clearly are not getting this straight story here.
So I do think it's a national security risk, so.
I mean the nationally It's interesting.
Yesterday he tweeted out classic right wing bop talking point, why do politicians on both sides care a hundred times more about the border of Ukraine than our border? Which he could have been lifted straight from a kind of Marjorie Taylor Green Gostar press release. I had Joel Roth on my show this week at former Twitter head of Trust and Safety. You had to flee his home because Musk Stands threatened his life and Musk suggested falsely he was a groomer, a lovely guy, and Joel Roth made the point that we should stop treating Musk's politics as somehow marcurial.
Oh is he an independent? Is he? What is he anti?
He's just your Bob standard far right Republican who's spewing Fox and bright Bart talking points. And that becomes very clear with this border trip. And the best part of this is and that not the best part. Actually the worst part, most ironic part which really annoys me and I hope annoys your listeners, which is that he goes to the border, as you say, does this republican stunt with a Republican congressman. He's busy running an anti Semitic campaign against the ADL. And yet at the same time, the Biden administration just gave him another contract this week to space X. They just got another government contract. I think we're seventy million dollars. And at the same time, the Wall Street Journal does It op ed last week saying, hey, why is the Biden administration targeting Musk with all these investigations and lawsuits? He shares a great Yeah, they seem to be targeting me. Yeah, they are targeting you with taxpayers cash. Why Chuck tchumor just hosted Elon Musk. I'm amazed that more Democrats don't ask Chuck Schumer, why are you hosting Elon Musk? If classic Democratic Party you can beat us, we'll give you the stick to beat us with. We'll still be nice to you and host you and reach out across the aisle and be biparties. Can you imagine, just imagine for a second, Molly Senator Mitch McConnell as a majority leader, or Kevin McCarthy hosting George Soros for an event a George Sorry, Jeffrey Katzenberg or some I don't know, some Democratic billionaire who gives billions to.
The Bart and slags the Republicans.
It would never happen, and if it did happen, the Republican base would go mad and McConnell slash McCarthy would have to apologize and withdraw the invite. But not on the Democratics that they just hosted Elon Muskus. If it's totally normal to host Elon Musk. And one last point on this the Ronan Pharaoh piece. I hope everyone has read the Ronan Pharaoh piece, not just for what Musk says, is quoted as saying in there, there's a Pentagon spokesman in a Democratic administration who tells the New Yorker, I don't know if I can talk to you unless mister Musk is me permission.
Uh what governments? Most people have to get permission from Elon Musk to talk to journals. Where are we living? You know, oligloggold Lucky.
I'm sorry, Maddie, Yes exactly, and yes, and I think that's a really good point.
And we don't see democrats do the number.
They're weak.
I would also add, there aren't all that many great alternatives. So there is a question of like, why is government putting its finger on the scale for someone who we know, oh is clearly at best conservative, at worst severely you know, mentally ill. I mean, what I think is really interesting. And you see this with the biography that just came out, these very severe right leaning perhaps autocratic and you know, I want to say racist, but I want to say something that's like a little less extreme than racism. But clearly, I mean the whole idea South Africa is based on this racism, right, So this is the family has you know, these are like strong roots. I mean this is not like the guy just came along to these values. I mean, it seems very clear that Elon Musk has always believed these things.
It's interesting topic.
Here is another topic that again reminds you of why liberals always fight with one on behind their back.
I want to say a couple of things.
One is you mentioned like, you know, is he kind of mentally he behaves in a deranged fashion. I just want to clarify because I know this is not what you were saying. Like, the guy has talked about being on the spectrum, right, he's talked about right his issues. That is not why he's a awful But let's just be very very clear about that. You know, Walter Isaacson and his biography talks about all of you know that that aspect of his character, and does that make him a joke? I personally get very frustrated when people are like, oh, you know, it's like Republicans say, we have all these shooters because of mental illness.
No.
First of all, don't blame violence on mentally ill people, right. And number two, there are lots of people with mental health issues who are not jerk. Right, the fundament he's a jerk because he's a jerk. He behaves in a deranged manner, because a lot of people on the right, as we just discussed at the start as this show, behave in a deranged man that seems to be more related to the politics of these people than anything inside of their head. As many people are pointed out, Musk wasn't always like this, like he wasn't this deranged and conspiratorial five ten years ago. It's the more he goes down into the right wing fever swamps that he behaves like every other right wing grifter. So I think it's worth just establishing that. To come back to your point about racism. You know, he's been tweeting recently about South Africa and talking about you know, kill the Whitey song and all the stuff that's going on in South Africa. He's been endorsing some rather dangerous tropes about white genocide in South Africa that Kaka Carlson and Donald Trump have done in the past.
I would say this, look whether his.
Racism today, and as I say, I've done a long deep dive about the racism on X and that racism that comes from his own account. Some of the neon artsis He replies, to and amplifies and some of the horrible things he says. Is that a product of his childhood upbringing? I genuinely don't know. But maybe it's funny how we don't talk about it, because that's like it's off limit to point out that the guy grew up in white controls South Africa. Maybe maybe that's part of his worldview. I'm not saying it is, but I would argue that you know, as a Muslim, as somebod who spent the last twenty years always having to justify my views as what is not because of my religion or you know, don't type cast me because I'm a Muslim, or I don't have to apologize for what Muslim countries are doing.
I'm not even from.
The Middle East, and I spent half my life having to defend myself saying, well, no, I'm not speaking on behalf of Iran. No, it's funny that the guy actually from apartheid South Africa who now says racist things is not asked.
At well, is this because of your upbringing?
And whose grandfather went to apartheid South Africa because he liked apartheid so much? I mean, I get conservative saying to me, well, your grandfather was a communist, so you must be a communist, by the way, to which I say, my grandfather did the right thing and refused to name names for the house on an American activity when the American government went rogue, and I hope that if I'm in a position, I.
Would do the same.
And so I do think it is an incredible, incredible sense in which like he should not be given the benefit of the doubt. But I just want to move on from Elon Musk for two seconds. So there's going to be a government shutdown, Republicans's aren't worried. I was on CNN with a Republican strategist just like an hour or two ago, and he was saying, he was reading out these statistics and he was like, well, twenty percent of Americans will blame the Biden administration for this shutdown. And I was like, Okay, I don't think that's true, but sure.
What So three quick things in response to that number One Republican strategist, isn't that Oxymoor On these days?
I would just say I love the title. Two.
The polling does suggest that if you put if you look at the polls and you and I can talk about Poles another day. The polling does suggest, if you believe the polls, that a bigger PLIALI voters blame Democrats in Congress plus the Biden illustration then blame the House gup. And I think that's a fact. That's also part of asking the question. You're dividing up Democrats into Biden and Democrats. So some people pick Democrats, some people of it Biden. But look, we don't know the exact numbers. Clearly there's a big number of Americans who blame them. Now many of them will be Republicans who just blame Democrats for everything. This priorization in this country that underlies every poll. But the third point I would make is this, it does matter what democrats say.
I say this all the time.
Every time you leave a vacuum in politics, just as in nature, you cannot leave a vacuum and aphause.
A vacu Right.
So when Democrats say, oh, well let's get out of the way and let Republicans destroy each other, oh, I'm not going to comment on this. I'm going to stay above the fray. It doesn't work in twenty twenty three.
It just does.
And therefore, when you see polls suggesting, for example, give me some random poll results from recently. Donald Trump delivered on his agenda more than Biden has. That's what one poll showed recently. Donald Trump's economy was better than Joe Biden's economy. That's what many polls show. Joe Biden's mental competence is less than Donald Trump's. There's a new poll out this week from Morning Consult that shows Democrats are seen as more ideologically extreme than There's one underlying theme to all these poll results, apart from quote unquote polarization in America, and that is that Democrats have allowed Republicans to define the nature of the arguments that we have. So Republicans go around screaming that Democrats are baby killers and QAnon and groomers and evil and satan. I'm not even joking. These actual words that Republican politicians have used to describe Democrats. Marjorie Telly wins as Democrats have started killing it right, this is what they say. Meanwhile, Democrats run around like Joe Biden yesterday giving speeches saying John McCain, what a wonderful guy. I miss John, and go around saying let's be bipartisan and let's reach across the island. Let's be grown up. That doesn't work. That's asymmetric warfare. Right, one side is demonizing the other. The other side is busy saying, hey, let's pass the bipart is an infrastructure act. Where's the credit for that? You don't get any So these polls all do make the same with the shutdown, It's not surprising that Democrats are gonna get blamed, partly because we're Polo, partly because Democrats have not gone on the offensive in US. And this is why, you know, it all comes down to messaging and media was It doesn't come down to your pocket book. It doesn't come down to what is the inflation?
Right?
Yes, yes, you know, people don't vote in that way. I'm sorry, it's vibes. Sorry, we bring up an a lot of what passes for politics in this country's just vibes. When I meet people who are Democrats, I meet normal Democrats will say to me, oh, well, Joe Biden's too old, and I think, you know, Donald Trump looks healthier. Literally, somebody said that to me recent. I was like, what you think Donald Trump is more mentally fit than Joe Biden when he looks that way, I was like.
What, it's literally because he's heavier.
And it's not even because that person's gone and studied their statements or want it's just what they're hearing in the.
Air vibes many.
I could keep you on for another forty minutes, but then we'll both get in trouble.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank.
You for having me and let me rent on a Friday.
Daniel's Squadron is one of the founders of the States Project.
Welcome to Fast Politics, Daniel Squadron.
Thank you so much, an honor.
So talk to.
Us about what the State's Project is well.
States Project believes that state lawmakers are just about the most important policy makers in the country and have been left to the worst forces in our politics for fifty years. So the States Project is an effort to try to build power in state legislatures for lawmakers committed to improving lives with broadly popular values and goals, and then giving the lawmakers the tool the training they need to govern in a way that delivers for their constituents and and crew's law. Its booking with short term and over time.
So Republicans have had a head start here, let's talk a little bit about ALEC, and like with so many things, Republicans have had headstart.
Yes, and ALEC, you know is the American Legislative Exchange Council, which I know you know and probably many of dear listeners do, but most Americans who never heard of it. The most important to the organization in the country that most people have never heard of. It was found in nineteen seventy two, the same time as the Heritage Foundation, in order to drive extremist, far right special interest issues to state lawmakers around the country. I served in New York State Legislature for nearly a decade, and on the other side of the aisle, Republicans were in the majority and were being handed issues and getting support ideas prop state contact from ALEC, and those ideas were coming from their biggest donors.
The sort of thinking behind ALEC was that if you could give state legislators who don't have a ton of money already written legislation, they would use it. And that is kind of what's.
Happened right exactly, That legislation gets ritten in secretive ALEC working groups by big corporations and extremistic dist.
So one of the things that has happened in state legislatures around America is there are a couple of new laws that you can sort of trace back to this, and maybe they're not alec, but they are from this influence. I would think one of them would be the lowering punishments for child labor right. That's something we've seen pop up at different state houses. Sarah Sanders did it. Then we also saw the governor of Arkansas. We've saw pushes of anti trans bills. You can see these themes reverberate throughout state legislatures.
Chat and you and I think that what happened with the constitutional right to make healthcare decisions, run, sell through reproductive health decisions and abortion is in many ways the icon of this constitutional right defined explicitly.
We're talking about SB eight in Texas.
Here, well, I'm really talking and actually about the Mississippi law that gave these Supreme Court justice the excuse to a rac and constitutional right.
So dobbss exactly.
There were more than a dozen different versions poppying around, many look of whites, all designed as part of a strategy to give the court to smorgasboard to choose from in order to erase the right in the twenty teams. We were in Mississippi in twenty nineteen that bill had just passed, and if you were working in the state legislature, you knew exactly why it was passing in exactly the forum it was, and you knew, as you point out, kimmilar bills in Texas, Missouri, Kentucky and around the country.
So many of the Supreme Court decisions we've seen lately are the product of these cases that are crafted for the Supreme Court decision. You know, it Usually the way it's supposed to be is you have a case and then the court decided. But now we have a situation where because there's so much money in conservative politics and these conservative policies, they really were seeing cases that are crafted to get a certain Supreme Court decision. And that I think of the three H three Creative decision, which is a really good example of that three H three creative. The woman never made a website, but she wanted to know she could discriminate against gay people if she decided to.
It's really their cycle is state legislatures and the court, back and forth state legislatures because between gerrymandering, lack of public attention, and I would say disdain from our side, they had outside power in the courts because they don't need to answer to the people. Meanwhile, on our side, I would say there's an obsession with the presidency and the every two year fight for Congress. You know, it's interesting until this past November, Democrats are the trifecta inside the belt Leigh and Washing you see both chambers of Congress and the White House. And yet the right to abortion was a race and then a race for hundreds of millions of people, including every state in the South exception Virginia. Issue after issue, state legislatures in the court is what they're doing and where you know, dancing about the shiny out there.
So I want to ask you, as we're sort of looking at these state legislature bills, give us an example of what your organization does.
The first thing we do, and this is really important, is we try to make the job for state lawmakers who are there to be responsible to their constituents easier. Here this is our job. I know that the idea the term of state lawmaker just just sting the blamour and glitz. And it's probably even harder left lamorous, let with the than people would imagine it, or the op culture commentary would mop these.
Are people living in Albany.
These are people commuting to Albany, in my case, one hundred and fifty three miles, you know, twice a week from my hall my kids, or Springfield or Lansing or you know. It's part time in most dates, even the States, it's full time. It's low pay, there's little or no staff support. You know. Sometimes you'll ask the state Lonmacker how many staff you've had, and they'll say, oh, there's one person for everyone. So a lot of the issue is you get into office, there's an issue that drove you there. You care about your local school, you care about a bridge that's falling apart, you want to do public service. You get there and you have to deal with a thousand bills a year, and on the other side, high powered lobbyists, ALEC others are just surrounding you with information. If what you want to do is be a responsive to your constituents and say, like you, no, there's this bridge issue in my district. We're in a budget brunch. What do I do about it? You know, it's possible that you know, veering pansa. Somebody in Nebraska has based that issue involved it. The one thing we do is we try to connect lawmakers across they who have common issues that aren't driven or talked about by lobbyists inside the hall of their capital, but matter heck of a lot to their constituent. The second thing we do is try to just give them the tools to think about how to work together. You know, in Michigan and Minnesota and Pennsylvania this year there are extremely tight majorities won by just a couple of dozen votes, and no votes to give if they want to do things like raise the minimum wage or past paid family lead. So we help give tools and a framework so that they can figure out how to work together and where they have the vote, so it doesn't end up sort of in what happened in New York when I was there, which is inviting. That meant very little could get done and it was hard to make the case to the voters next time around.
I think of Minnesota as sort of this incredible example of Democrats killing it when it comes to state legislature.
Can you tell us what they did right there?
One thing they did that is really important I want to send around to every state in this country is they imagined the future for it to kurt and the Minnesota sennet flipped this year, which created a trifecta there where they're going to split government. That was hard to get things done in But they didn't start planning or thinking about their agenda after election day. They were planning, thinking, doing the hard work with some of the partners who have issues. They care a lot about, the constituents, they care about and each other for years, even before they had the gabble that let them move legislation so prior to preparation for events for performance. It's a good old cliche, and sometimes things are cliches for a reason. That's one thing they did, and again, any state in this country, deep red, purple, right blue, planning matters a lot. The second thing is they knew that the way they got there was voters who turned out for down ballot racing or frost parties from the top of the ticket to the bottom of the ticket. So they were very focused on delivering actually for most minutes, expanded rights so that everyone could live their lives with equal opportunity. They were very clear on their value and very clear on making the case publicly about them. The third thing is, you know they don't have a full time legislature, so they were on the clock, and thinking about your deadline and the period of time you have can really help. You know, It's an interesting question because those sorts of tools and lessons are ones that are certainly not rocket science, but it can be hard for a new state lawmaker or a new majority to take on. After things get started, things moved so quickly, you're responsible for the agenda every day. The winds blow pretty strong in these state legislatures from outside interests, and so just having a framework that you want to do things that are popular, that are economical, that will actually, you know, over time, health the states and people's financing that will immediately improve lives in ways that are demonstrable. You're telling the constituent that kind of framework, not three dimensional chats, but it can be very helpful once you're in the pressure cooker.
Tell me what you guys do.
So you connect state lawmakers with each other, and then do you supply them with bills?
We connect lawmakers with each other, We help groups of lawmakers. Joanna McClinton, who is the speaker in Pennsylvania, just talking about this this week to actually prepare for and think about the future. So different kinds of groups of folks getting together making plans for the future. And the State's Project also does posts on our website at Statesproject dot org a bunch of bills that are really ebuils to achieve some broadly popular goals like equal opportunity for all and affordable quality healthcare and every kid in this country graduating high school with a good day through twelve educator. So there are bills that are reflections of ways to achieve these goals that we've seen occur in other state on the website. And then because there's always new ideas, there's always the need when you're in a legislature to get the votes of your colleague, the State Project helps lawmakers think about what other ideas they might need and then help them try to find them.
So let me ask you, as we are in this fight for our lives is twenty twenty four election wal Democracy Survive, what do you think is the sort of state legislature of what races you're watching? I know I am thinking a lot about Virginia right now.
Yeah, twenty twenty four privlet.
Right, Yeah, But let's talk about what it looks like Virginia now, and then what races you are on your radar.
And there's a whole lot the state's project. We say, you have you know, fifty mini congresses out there around the country. Each one has its own interesting dynamics. When it comes to the political side of the work. Virginia is incredibly closed in both chambers. You know, there's a real risk in Virginia, look at the staying into democracy. If both chambers are lost and young Gimney can sort of do whatever he wants the governor down there, there's even the risk that they could start to mess with an undermine the presidential election. Those thirteen electoral votes coming out of Virginia are critically important to actually be legitimately counted and operated. So Virginia this year incredibly close in both the House and the Senate. And the stakes could well be the free and fair presidential election.
Wait, why I feel like the stakes are choice? Right?
Like, Young Cain could definitely get rid of choice, and he could certainly do a lot of Florida style stuff. But why would the stakes be free and fair elections?
Right? Well, certainly choice, because it's the last southern state where abortion is still legal, and for the free and fair presidential election. There's this kind of concepts that in bouncing around the extreme right wing that your state legislatures have a state power right when it comes to presidential electors and the president and the president. Ya. I think Supreme Court did a surprisingly good thing earlier this summer.
Right, that's the state legislature theory, right right, And the Supreme Court said and break that legislatures can't act totally outside of their state constitution, they might even need the governor to sign off on fundamentally undermined the election.
What they didn't say is that the clarity and validity of elections is enough a federal prerogative that states can't mact with it. So if you have a unified anti democratic legislature and Glenn Youngkin trying to prove that news trumpier than the magic and self, and you have a state that has tended to vote for Democrats over the last few presidential cycles, that's a real risk. So the States Project is very concerned that people are just looking pat Forginia.
Yeah, I'm concerned that people are looking past Virginia. If you're listening to this podcast. There's a major, super important state race going on right now.
Right now. And again, if I was a betting person, I would sit this one out. It's so close right now. I'm not, but it's real close.
Yeah.
And then in twenty twenty four, you know there's some of the usual SUFFEC states that are really important. Michigan has been doing incredible work. Just that Minnesota did That House majority is razor thin. Has to be defended next year a Minnesota and you talk about all the work they got done. Both chambers are up for election. You're talking about hundreds of votes having determined the majority. There the Pennsylvania House with the Pennsylvania Miracle and twenty twenty two with the States Project help Pennsylvania House with by ewer than one hundred votes that has to be defended. And then across the country, you know a lot of other interesting places and thresholds. You know, Nebraska having a supermajority or an not can make them being different on Arizona is a place that hasn't quite gotten over the topic. But and you know on all of these plates in that in Virginia people can get involved the way you say it stas project, we actually create a tool for people to get involved, called giving circle, where they can actually create their own giving group, become experts on it. They get their friends and neighbors to start singing this incredibly important tune and have a vastly bigger impact on the outcome than they ever could at Congress. It's not too late to even start a giving circle or Virginia if folks appropriately get worried after they hear everything you said.
Thank you so much. I hope you'll come back.
Oh any time. Thank you for having me.
Steve Inskeep is the host of Morning Edition and Up First on National Public Radio and author of Differ We Must How Lincoln succeeded in a divided America.
Welcome too Fast Politics.
Steve, thank you, it's great to be here.
I have a theory of why you wrote this book, but I want to hear from you.
Why did you write this book?
I was going to say, if you already know, I could just listen and find out why.
I still love that.
Tell me your theory. I want to know the theory.
Well, so you wrote this book about Lincoln, and I think that when Biden got inaugurated, which would be about three years ago, there was a lot of sort of feeling that he could be a sort of Lincoln president.
Oh so that's the theory.
Yeah, that's my theory. Is that not right at all?
Well, I think the timeline would complicate that a little bit because I started it in early twenty twenty, the spring of twenty twenty. I think I started with a particular interest in history and evolved to understand how it related to the politics of now. And you're definitely right that it relates to the politics of now. But my starting point is that I've always admired Lincoln, and I grew up in Indiana, where he spent a lot of his boyhood. And then I've written two other books on the nineteenth century, and so you learn a lot about Lincoln and just the context and the background, and you see how it relates to present day as well. And then I got this idea to do a book that would tell Lincoln's whole life through his meetings with people who were in some way different from him, like a diverse group of people, I mean, different backgrounds and also different races and genders and all sorts of different things. And then I realized it wasn't exactly a book about difference. It was mainly a book about disagreement, about his meetings with people who disagreed and how he dealt with them. As you can see, the purpose of the book is creeping closer and closer to our really discordant and divided moment now, where I don't really think we're headed for a civil war or anything, but Lincoln's time is something to tell us.
Yeah, I mean, I don't think you can say that we're definitively not Again. I hate this civil war talk, and I think it's really important to not ever sort of have rhetoric that is inflammatory. But we're as certainly as much on the precipice of terrifying political violence as we've ever been in my lifetime.
Oh, political violence is another thing. Political islands is very possible because it's just this very American thing, right Like you look into history and you realize we've had a lot of it of different kinds at different points. I should say about a civil war, I mean, I don't predict the future, and if it happens, I'll cover it. But what makes me think it's not imminent is what really would it be about. I mean, the Civil War was about slavery, which was this huge economic system that implicated everybody in the country in various ways, and it was an enormous difficulty to do anything about it, even when people agreed that it was wrong. We have today this big divide in the country. But it's really and I don't mean to say there's no serious issues. There's serious, big issues, things like abortion. We could list ten big things, but it's a really incoherent divide. I don't see people truly going like into armies in Civil war about memes and attitudes and the various things that people argue about and get mad about day by day. Yeah, it doesn't seem eminent.
It is though this strange earth one versus Earth's true reality, which could ultimately descend into anything. But I want to get back to this idea of there's sort of relevance of Lincoln to now, so talk to me about that.
Yeah, what Lincoln did face was a divide in society where people had radically different ideas of society and also had every other kind of difference that they have because I mean, it's a republic, it's a democracy, and I think that in this book, I'm able to show him practicing a skill that a lot of us sort of have contempt for now have lost respect for, or thrown up our hands. It's like useless to talk to the other side. They're all zombies over there. They don't listen, they've got alternative facts, everything's made up. What's the point of arguing with them. It's very frustrating, and I don't deny some truth in that. It can be very frustrating to talk to people on the other side. And it is very hard to change the mind of a human being. I mean, think about that. You go to Thanksgiving with your crazy uncle or crazy you, and you think you're going to change his mind over dinner, like the beliefs that he's over the last thirty years.
I mean, that's not very likely.
But Lincoln understood that even if you don't change the other person's mind, even if they don't change your mind, you can get something out of that encounter. You might find out of like ten big things you agree on one you might find out that you don't agree on anything and can't do business with this person at all, But you learn something from the exchange. He even had people because he's a politician and he's practical and he's trying to get things done. There are even occasions where he was able to use people. They didn't agree about anything, but he managed to get some use out of them for his cause.
It's true, I kind of want to argue with you about talking to the other side as much as I am a person who comes from the Bulwark and appreciates never Trump conservatives. And you know, I mean I interviewed doctor Hotels in Austin this weekend and we had RFK Junior and lots of really menacing looking people trying to get us distracted or perhaps looking for the opportunity to do something really bad. So I do feel like, you know, it's one party wants to give you healthcare and the other party wants to end your rights. I mean, I understand that you're on the straight news side, so it's you have to seem less partisan, but it does seem to me like the insanity of the situation has to be hard to parse.
I grant what you're saying, I don't even know. I mean different we must did I just drop the book title? But no, Actually, I think we don't necessarily disagree. I mean, there are some divides that you can't bridge. But the lucky thing is that democracy doesn't require that. I mean, democracy doesn't require everybody to agree. And when someone says can't we all get along? I mean that famous Rodney King quote, which was so heartfelt and so sincere at the time, but as a political philosophy, actually, no, we don't, and we're not going to because it's a free society and we all have different backgrounds and we're going to have different ideas, including a lot of crazy ones. And that's another thing that I learned studying the nineteenth century. There've always been crazy conspiracy theories and bananas ideas and warped ideas of humanity. That's always with us. But you need a majority to be sensible. You need to assemble a coalition of the majority that is sensible. And I could give an example that's going to be really familiar to you, Liz Cheney. I'm guessing that if we talked about LGBTQ rights, you don't agree with Liz Cheney at all, find her bananas and dangerous. But if you are thinking in terms of getting facts out about January sixth, Liz Cheney was very valuable to the country, cost her a primary election.
Of course, but she.
Did her job. And that kind of alliance is the kind of thing that I think about when I think about Abraham Lincoln, who led the country into the Civil War. I mean, he didn't get along with everybody either literal war against other people in this country, but he knew he could keep and he had to keep a majority on his side, and he ended up with a lot of literal slave owners who fought for the Union side and supported the country, which means that in the long term, they did something to end slavery, which is kind of wild to think about that slave owners helped to end slavery, and that is a tribute to Lincoln that he made room in his coalition for people like that and didn't say you're immoral and wrong out of here.
No, you think that Actually that case sort of makes my case. I mean, Liz Cheney, I don't agree with her on a lot of stuff, but she her heart.
She wants government to succeed.
I mean, she believes in the sort of democratic principles. She is truly loathed and despised by people like Jim Jordan and even people like Kevin McCarthy who run the House GOP consider her to.
Be you know, an enemy of the state.
I mean, I think of my own grandfather, Howard Fast, who was jailed by McCarthy right from his trial right to his jail cell in nineteen fifties. And I wonder when people in the government are wrong or evil or not respecting the democratic norms. If we don't say so, well.
Oh well, I mean, you call out people who don't respect democratic norms. I don't think the call here is to be dishonest or to suppress the truth. The call is to try to deal with people where you can. I mean, I think that would be Lincoln's call. And you discover sometimes in a big country, with this republican small r republican system that we have, that there are people who you despise that maybe become allies from time to time. I mean, I think about something like the recent push by the state legislature in Alabama to again and again and again and again impose congressional districts so there can be one less black representative or one more Republican representative, or however they look at it, and I mean, I understand their argument. They're like, it's racist to consider race at all. We should just do the lines that we want that elect more Republicans.
But it's obviously not about racism.
Sure, let's acknowledge their argument, but basically, the courts have told them again and again and again, you're wrong, and they keep going back. They've gone back twice to the Supreme Court without knowing. You can imagine that they had a hope that the conservative majority super majority on the Supreme Court would one way or another back them, and they did. You know, maybe they wouldn't back them in the end, but maybe they do one of those shadow docket orders which would let them get another year or two out of the map.
This could just go on forever and ever and ever.
And the Court, who I'm guessing you have had a lot of criticism for, knocked them down and said, actually, no, that's not allowed. And so there was somebody sticking up for the system, right. And we could have a long debate about why they chose to do that, and whether the public criticism of the court on some other cases had something to do with their opinions or whether they decided it purely on the law. I don't know, but they did something that you would agree with even if a large majority of their decisions are things you don't agree with.
No, I agree, and I also say something like that is pretty clear cut.
But it is hard. I mean, don't you agree.
Oh, it's hard.
I mean, especially when you have a situation like right now, Trump versus Biden. You cannot accurately describe Trump as a candidate without seeming at least partisan.
Oh you mean, because if you just say the facts about.
Him, Yeah, it seems very partisan.
I would grant that.
But now you're asking me, I think maybe about being a newsperson, because as a journalist, I describe Trump, and my job is to state the facts and to try really hard to state them calmly and state them fairly. I mean, I wrote a thing about this the other day, about the question of how to think about Trump crump. Trump is a criminal defendant because we are in a country where you're innocent until proven guilty, and for all we know, one, two, three, or four juries may well find this person innocent. I have no idea, because that is a matter of criminal law, and who knows what evidence they're going to admit, who knows what evidence they're going to exclude, what anybody's going to think of anything, what novel legal defense may come up. So I'm willing to accept that Trump is innocent until proven guilty. But I also know, as a journalist who's been present and following facts what he did, and so I am not inclined to say allegedly tried to overturn the results of the twenty twenty election.
Because we know all the evidence.
You know, we're just going to say he did that, And if challenged on a source, I can say, well, he went to more than sixty courts and lost every time. Thousands of election officials from both political parties affirmed that the election results were fair. So that's really not something we have to argue about. I think my job is to accurately describe both of those things. He's an a criminal proceeding. We honestly don't know how it's going to turn out, but we do know the facts that are at issue.
Yeah, so let's talk about Lincoln.
One of the things I think is really interesting is this idea that he really did need to kind of sell what was doing it.
Yeah, talk about that.
It's an incredible thing because of how little support really there was for abolition in the United States. There were all of these interests and prejudices and laws in favor of slavery, and remarkably few people who said this is terrible, we have to end it right now. There was a very widespread view that slavery was wrong. And you know this history. Southern states had embraced slavery since the founding of since before the founding of the country, and it got stronger and stronger as an industry, so to speak, and northern states had gradually abolished it. And so people in the North understood that slavery was wrong. Honestly, a lot of people who own slaves would say, yes, this is an evil, it is wrong. But when you got around to the question of what to do about it, everybody would ham in hall or many people would and have reasons not to act. Northerners, for example, this was true in Abraham Lincoln's Illinois, were opposed to slavery, but would be very reluctant to have emancipation, because what if some of these millions of suddenly freed people came north in search of work and were competing against me for a job and wanted to live in my neighborhood. People didn't want that. There were even people making arguments that if millions of enslaved people were suddenly freed, they would not get along with white people. There would be a race war, and they would be exterminated. And therefore, according to this argument, it was better for black people to keep them enslaved. Crazy crazy thinking to us. But these extraordinary rationalizations made it really hard to build a big political coalition against slavery, and Lincoln had to be very careful about how he talked. He had to be very careful about what he stood for, even who he associated with, and he thought really hard about his audience and thought about, how can I say it is in your interest to oppose slavery. How can I remind people that slavery may spread into this very state and harm you in some way, And that is why we need to be at least against it spreading, even if we can can't end it right now. His efforts to craft a political argument are fascinating to me, and they're grounded in his understanding of human nature and how people kind of do build their beliefs around their self interests, and he had to work with that and understand who was talking to and understand their interests and try to ignite them in a higher cause by engaging their interests in it.
Yeah, it's such an interesting thing because we don't think about how unpopular doing the right thing can be. And you will see again and again if you go back through history so many different times when doing the moral upstanding thing was wildly unpopular.
Yeah, and there were people at the time who were saying the moral upstanding thing. Anybody who says, well, that's just how people believed at the time. There were plenty of people around saying why slavery was wrong and what ought to be done about it right now, but getting a majority to say that was really hard. And I'm thinking of a current example, if you'll allow me, where people are attempting this kind of politics, and it has to do with climate change. There's this Inflation Reduction Act that was passed last year that includes a bunch of money for renewable energy, and the administration is steering this and there are plenty of other people who are engaged in it. A lot of the money for renewable energy products to battery plants, solar farms, wind farms, and so forth are going toward Red states. And this is conscious on some level to make sure that people in red states who have not bought the science on climate change or increasingly have their own rationalizations for it. So like, yes, I accept climate change is real, but it's just not that big a deal. They haven't bought that. But this gives them an interest, a financial interest in the money, in the jobs, in what is Honestly, I mean, it's the energy industry. The energy that we use has to come from somewhere. We use a heck of a lot of it, use an unbelievable lot of electricity. You and I are using some right now. Has to come from somewhere. Might as well come from a wind turbine. Who cares? And if they can engage people in red states who to have an interest in climate change, the theory goes that changes the politics of climate change. Does that work? I don't know if it works or not. Honestly, again, I can't predict the future. But that's the kind of politics that we're discussing.
So interesting. Thank you, Steve, You're welcome. In a moment, fuck Jesse Cannon, Molly John Fast.
The government did not shut down, despite the fact that everyone seemed to think it would. Tell me what you see here, you're.
Just trying to gloat. You didn't think the government was shut down.
You're giving me the chance to say that. I said for two buds that this was never happening.
You are a moment of fuck the one time that's Jesse has been right before, but this one he was actually right. And literally every other newsroom thought the government was going to shut down. So Jesse being right about the aversion of a government shutdown is our moment of fuck.
Ray So the government did not shut down at the eleventh hour. One Kevin McCarthy the weakest. We have never had a speaker who is less good at math than Kevin McCarthy, and supposedly even when he was whip he could not count votes. So this guy finally decided to pick up the cr that the Senate had passed twice with more than seventy five votes, and he picked up that exact same CR.
And it's a he put it through. And so at the eleventh hour, the government did not shut down. And so they have a kind of hail Mary for forty five days. But would like to point out that after he did that, Mad Mighty Mad Gates the Botox CA went on Jake Tapper's.
Show this morning, which will be to yesterday morning for all of you.
And he told Jake Tapper that he was going to just make McCarthy's life miserable. He was going to put together a motion to vacate, or as now it is being called when you read in shorthand, MTV. So we are in a terrible point in American history where MTV now stands for her motion to vacate, and that, my friends, is our moment of fuckery. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.
And again, thanks for listening.
