Evenings with Matthew PantelisMatthew Pantelis speaks with AMA State President Dr John Williams and Greens MLC Robert Simms on pill testing.
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There's a warning about deadly fake pills with schoolies just a week away. In fact, the end of this week, isn't it? I think Friday? Is it this? Yeah? It is Friday that they go off on the weekend is schoolies And look it comes incidentally the story you heard in on five double A News just a few minutes back, quarter of an hour ago about two friends, two girls nineteen fighting for life in Thailand, suspected of drinking methanol in spike drinks, drinking cocktails at a hostel in Laos and twenty five to ninety mills. So you don't even need to take a pill. How it got in there was? Was it spiked? Was it accidental? Deliberate? You'd think not accidental. But they're fighting for life and at worst that's where it's at. If they survive potential blindness, other disabilities as a result of this, the body shuts down. It's not great. But pill testing to come back to that. This is not new phony pills being sold as ecstasy. They could be fatal. School leavers could be offered what they think is MDMA but could contain other drugs, other elements that could put lives at risk and the call has come for legalized pill testing. We asked the Health Minister to come on. We've got a statement from his offers, Chris Pichton's offer saying, essay, Labor was consistent before the last election in not supporting pill testing. As part of the policy we released and have now implemented a comprehensive policy regarding illicit drugs that involves more rehab beds and more support to families of drug use at school levers attending schoolies are reminded illicit substances are illegal and dangerous. They are very real criminal penalties that apply, and the health impacts from casual drug use or addiction can be devastating. Now, look, pill testing or not. If we have it, one of the questions should be where did you buy this from? Who gave it to you? And police then go and track it back and hopefully catch the people ultimately who are producing this. Let's have a chat about all of this. Doctor John Williams, President of the Australian Medical Association. Here in Essa. John Goodmrning, good morning. All right, So pill testing you'd be supporting that for keeping people healthy obviously?
Yeah? Absolutely, I mean it's really about harm minimization. We know that with pill testing, a significant number of people that have the toil testing testing end up not taking the pills, which is a great outcome, but also a large group of those people are connected up with healthcare professionals that can help them discuss their drug taking and support them healthier options. So we know that it's really important that we've taken non judgmental stance on this and take an education point of view, engaging people their brains and hearts to kind of sort through the problems.
All right, the ultimate harm minimization is not taking the drugs in the first.
Place, absolutely, and we know peofully support the legislation that these folks be not legal and you know, there has to be a clear message from from a legal point of view that these are not safe and shouldn't be legalized. But also we know that people are taking them and we have to face up to that reality and face that head on and engage people where they're at, talk to them where they're at, and talk them while they're taking the drugs. And also the risks involved with that. As you implied, you know, this is completely illegal, completely unregulated, so any anyone can can buy a plane a pillmaker and put any kind of white powder in there. So there's no there's no you know, no one if you buy that pill, there's no checking of that tool unless there is pill testing, and then people can see, you know, what actually is in those and really whether they want to take that risk.
Yeah, So how does pill testing work on the spot like that? I mean, what's it actually measure? What's done?
So they have machinery spectrometers I believe they're called that you know, can test. They can't test for all the substances, but they can get an idea of what's in them and also the amounts of drug in there. So I mean, again it's sort of an absolute comprehensive test, but it kind of gives an indication of what drugs might be in there and their concentration.
Okay, so the tester would then be able to tell the person who supplied it. The effects of this on you would be X, Y and Z, and potentially if it was deadly, they'd be able to know that as.
Well, exactly, So you know, I guess it sends a message that what you thought you were buying is probably not what's actually buying. And then also are professionals on the ground there they can talk to you about the drugs and we know that with all of those drugs is there's health impacts and mental health impacts and they can be discussed at that time as well, so that people, you know, are just aware of these things. And also it's really important to know, you know, why why people were taking the drugs. I mean, you know, maybe you know pressure, peer group pressure, or maybe you know perceived fun fun in that, but there also may be other reasons why people are taking the drugs, mental health concerns, anxieties and those kinds of things, social anxieties. So you know, there's a whole lot of motivators why people take this medication and it's important to talk about those things and you know, help help people find a way through that.
Yeah. Absolutely, Just don't understand John, You're probably in the same camp too. Why anybody would would trust somebody giving them, selling them appeal to take and saying well this will be okay, I'll take this. Do we know what the the death rate is in South Australia, you know, do a lot of people suffer over dices die as a result.
I don't have those figures to hand, but I would say that you know, anyone dying and certainly you know, as a doctor that works in ED, you know, we certainly see the impact of drugs and of course you know be remiss in not mentioning alcohol, which we know that's a huge factor in causing harm to people. So I think you represent all emergency workers that you know you really really get sick of the smell of blood and alcohol together. It's really an awful smell.
Goodness, So you.
Know this, this is the real impact that it has. But you know, just working through I guess that's really important to send the message that which we're going to touch people, we just want to work through and keep people safe and to live their best lives.
And I suppose if we do test pills that potentially means for your people coming through EED. So yes, that's ultimately it, isn't it.
Yeah, Yeah, that's right. We really want we don't want to see people we need e that's that's you know, one of the worst possible outcomes, and you know you don't want people to have to go through that themselves. And also it's an awful load on air and already overloaded immergent.
Drugs mixed with alcohol. So the pills, you know, even load toxicity, does the alcohol make it worse? Is that the worst possible combination.
I don't know about the worst possible, but but it's certainly not a great combination any kind of mixture. And it's really you know, everyone's really different as well. So you know, some people you know may or may not be able to tolerate mixtures as well, and they also may have other medical conditions or you know that they may be unaware of that can influence how the drugs protect them as well. So it really puts a potentially huge load on the system and can have potentially tragic outcomes.
Yeah, absolutely, all right. I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you, Thank you doctor John Williams, who was president of the AMA here in South Australia. Robert Simms Green's Upper House MP, Robert, good.
Morning, Good morning, Neew.
You've been calling for this for a while pill testing and the government it seems not willing to budge on it. Yeah.
I think that's really disappointing. And I mean, as doctor Williams said, there's a serious risk here that could be mitigated through making pool testing available and I don't know why the government won't at least consider it. I went over to Canberra about two years ago now and had it there. Had to look at their fixed site pill testing and it's quite an incredible service. So they offer people going in the opportunity to get an STI check as well as getting their pills tested. They've had a very very good success rate and it's in quite a discrete area and they work and cooperate with law enforcement to ensure that people feel they're able to access the site and they're having a really really good success rate in terms of identifying a range of other health issues. I think that the point that I'd make too about pill testing is it's not the case that someone gets a pull tested and then you know, the person says, oh yeah it's ecstasy, go ahead, have a great night. You know, they actually discourage you from taking all drugs and they say, look, if you're going to do this, you need to have a plan in place. What are you going to do in terms of in touch with friends and you're going to have enough water around you. But really the advice is don't take the drug. Don't take this risk, because we know that actually none of these substances are safe, and even if they are what they purport to be, it's better off. You're better off not taking them at all.
Of course, if it's found to be they're surely not returned. If the results come back, this could kill you. And I suppose any pill that you buy in those circumstances could kill you, regardless of the testing. It depends on your physiology and everything else, I imagine. So if you do they find something that is particularly toxic, surely they don't give it back.
Well, I don't think they can give you back the individual pill that they've tested, because you know, if they've used that, one's done. But what they will do is say, look, this had traces of X y Z. You know, we encourage you not to take anyone any other pills from this back. Now, all of the evidence from interstate shows that actually young people then don't take but don't take the pill, you know, because you get told that it's going to be seriously risky for you and it's not what you thought it was. Well you're not going to do it. But it's about giving people that information and you know, feedback I've had from parents and I've been talking about this over the years, particularly at this time of year, is that they actually just want this in place to protect their kids. They don't want their children to be taking drugs, and you know, no one does. But the reality is young people will experiment, they will do these things, and I think we as a society have got to put some guardrails around that to make sure that they're protected because really, at the moment, they're playing Russian roulette when they're at these festivals, and it can have lifelong consequences for families and for these young people, and you know, I don't want to see that. So that's why the Greens have been pushing for pill testing for a long time.
Okay, for as you say, parents wouldn't want their kids to beach taking any drugs, no one, No one would, no one should. But if it comes back again a toxic result, surely the question should be can you please tell us where you brought these from? We need to follow this through.
Yeah, that's where you and I have a different view, mat and that's because I think what we don't want is to create a situation where people feel they can't come forward or they can't and get the pills tested, because it's going to you know, set them on a path with law enforcement or whatever. I mean, my understanding of what's happened in the stay is that work gets around about a bad batch if you like, you know, if someone's bought something they find out it's not good, Well, work gets around that how you might not want to buy something from you know, this particular person. But they're very careful around protecting the privacy of people that go in. So they even confiscate their mobile phones when they're in there because they don't want you know, photos being kind of being information being shared. And if we want people to engage with that service, we've just got to be really careful around how we do it.
All right, So working into state you reckon it should come in here. I wouldn't object to it per se, But I do think we need to find out where drugs come from in the first place, to try and eliminate the whole issue, because, as you say, no one should be taking these drugs. No one.
Yeah, And look, I think that's the law enforcement issue, and you know, I think that's being looked at. But I'd really urged the government to look at a center like a can test, which they have in Canberra, which is fixed on site, but also to have pop up pill testing fabilities at music festivals and things like school is, you know, and then you can drop in in a discreet way get your substance tested. But also you have trained medical people who are actually able to provide some support to these young people too and talk them through what their options might be. I just don't want to see people taking this risk and potentially having lifelong health consequences. That's just so devastating for the whole community.
All death and absolutely exactly. All right, Robert seems appreciate your time.
And Matthew kind of thank you for having me on over the last year and or so. It's been really good chatting to you. I've enjoyed our talks and I wish you all the best with your new role.
Thank you, Thanks very much, Robert appreciate the call.
