Matthew Pantelis speaks with author Paul Flavel in the studio about his new book ‘John Martin’s’ about the iconic SA department store.
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He thrilled to be chatting about John Martin's and if you've got any memories you want to share, but do that because I'm with Paul Flavel, who has written a book, John Martin's, The Story of South Australia's beloved department Store. It's not a small book either, and I've been browsing through it with Paul, chatting about the photos. Absolutely crammed with photos. We'll talk about where he got them from. The book has been launched today formerly launched today down at Glanville House in Glanville, just off sort of inside the corner of Bower Road and Military Road where the golf courses, the Path three. You can't miss it. Just look it up on a map. You might have the book. I'm not sure we'll find out. Paul, Good morning to you, welcome.
Along, Thank you, thanks for having me.
Why the book? Why did you feel it was so important to write a book about Johnny's? Do you know?
It's the look you get in Adelaide when you mentioned John Martin anyone usually over thirty five, that look of nostalgia and instant memories. I had to capture that and put into a book before it was too late.
Okay, And like I say, a big book. I don't know how many pages it is, but absolutely loaded. So in terms of memories everything from its commencement to sadly towards the end Johnny's been torn down to make way for the store that's there. Now, why is it so special to South Australians.
John Martin's, you know, from the very beginning loved South Australia. They were so devoted to South Australia. They wanted the state to be successful. And it was a very rare example of a business being so ingrained in the community. And it did a lot of work for charities and through the Hayward family, but it did it very privately and of course on a more public scale the Christmas Pageant and the Magic Cave. People were loyal back to it as it was to South Australia.
Yeah, that's key, isn't it. I think the pageant played a big role in that. I mean, what a marketing master stroke that turned out to be, even though it probably wasn't the thought originally.
Well it was about you know, it was a great depression when it started, and it was a wait for Sarah, but Hayward to reconnize that the state needed lifting up in the hard times, and it was their way of giving back during Christmas. But of course it grew and grew until its you know, even today it's one hundreds of thousands of people lining the streets and that's wonderful.
Yeah. Absolutely, the photos are in credib I don't know. You'd know how many photos are in here.
They'd be hundreds, there would be I would say two to three hundred photos from the very beginning as much as possible till the very end.
And where did you source them all? Because you know, you wouldn't have had this in your collection. You would have been I imagine long hours crawling through all sorts of places to get it.
Yeah, do you know that? That's actually the funny thing. As much as John Martin's is really loved and known in the community, it's actually very hard to research the business. Really, that was one of the hardest things from the beginning. So for the last thirty years, the archive in the State Library has housed the business records, so I access those with permission from David Jones, and that's where most of the photos are. But also the staff themselves had photo albums and things like that. But keep in mind, this is before we had iPhones. We took photos and everything, so it was often difficult to kind of match the memories people had with a photo.
Why did you need permission of David Jones? Do they still have the ownership of the name.
So they very much do. So a lot of old businesses like John Martin's, their IP and their ABN and things like that, are still owned by their parent company, and in this instance it is still still owned. The business records themselves have been sealed in the archive, and I actually put it off for many years during the journey before seeking permission because I didn't want to hear no and my priority really was to get out there and meet the people that were Johnny's rather than wait for the archive.
So you have spoken with a lot of staff who worked there, and obviously their memories only go back to what probably the nineting fifties or so, so.
You'd be really surprised. There's one lady coming to the book launch today. She remembers the Second World War ending John Martin's. She worked, and she had the sewing rooms and is back in the day when things were manufactured in the store hats, dresses, things like that. So the earliest people I've spoken to work there in the start of the forties up until the end. It's incredible and that's half its life pretty much. Yeah, about eighty years in so that's the earliest. But these are people that worked with the early Hayward family, So incredible memories of Adelaide back then.
And coming to work on a trolley bus probably down the center of Rundle Street day.
Yeah, and coming really far to work. People had come back from the Adelaide Hills. And this is back when Devil's Elbow was a dicase. So the commitment these people had to coming into work was amazing.
How about that I've often thought over the years, and especially when they bought it and then decided to shut it. The best thing David Jones could have done in South Australia is to rebadge their stores to that famous cursive signature of John Martin's and trade under that name in South Australia. They have been on such a winner.
Yeah, it definitely comes up a lot, I've got to say, and I know a lot of people have things to say about the Adelaide's steamship company. But I had the pleasure of sitting down with John Spalvin's for lunch last year. And he was very protective of John Martin's. And he owned a lot of businesses under the Adelaide Steamship Company. One of them was David Jones. It was the only store. He was the CEO of all his companies, and he was very protective of Johnny's and from nineteen eighty five until he left in nineteen ninety one when ad Steam collapsed, he was very The two were separate. So David Jones was upmarket and John Martin's was for the like the broader market, and that's how it was. But once he left the scene and then a lot of other things happened, things started to falling out.
Yeah, and that's the shame of it all that we've lost the name and this great store that we all loved. The South Australians going back so many stories. We've just been trading stories a little bit. I got lost in Johnny's as a two year old. I've somehow found myself down in the basement, staying up down, up down, because like a lot of kids, and like you, fascinated by those lifts with the metal great doors, yes, and the little nob thing, the handle that they use.
Yeah.
The lift ladies, you know, David Jones had them Harriscarf, but twenty's yeah, the seven lifts. The ladies were impeccably dressed. Yes, they drove those lists with efficiency. And as much as I love the toy Department, I watched these ladies in wander and I've told the story a million times. But my parents organized me to be dropped off with the ladies and actually got to drive the.
Lift with them.
And through this journey I was able to find those ladies again, and they're coming again to.
The booklorn about that. So you were how old you were?
Nine?
I was seven seven nine. So it happened twice just before it closed, right, yeah, just before So we're talking about the late nineteen ninety eight. Yeah, one month before it sadly closed. Yeah, wow, And I was I was bording with my parents on closing day as well.
So you feel a big affinity to Johnny's in as well.
I like to think of myself as a as they, you know, sort of someone who wasn't really that work there and honorary employee way, but I have to say the Johnny's people have been so kind to me on this project. They could have all told me to go away, but they have been so kind and giving in their stories that I'll always remember that.
I think, because you're documenting their stories and their love for Johnny's, as we all have a piece of us. You know, any long term South Australian who remembers Johnny's thinks of it. Finally, no one doesn't, do, you know.
I mean there's been a couple of stories, like any workplace of drama, and you know, I love that sort of thing, and there's a bit of that in the book. But overly, there's nothing I can find where John Martin's did anything bad. You know, they were clean, no scandals anything like that. They did good business in the state and that's why people love to work there.
Johnny himself is a bit of a bad boy, wasn't he? Going back?
It's really hard to find much information about John Martin or Otto Peters, and I couldn't find anyone still connected to John Martin. Very difficult. But someone recently, he just bought a book and he emailed being told me he was a descendant of Otto Peter's right founders. And I thought, wow, like that's in pretty incredible. But he had many children, John Martin, but he sadly died early. And often in records when someone dies of something that's maybe from you know, a lot of drinking or debauchery or things like that, there's usually just a you know, it passed away from a sad illness.
Yes. Yeah, and that's the suggestion that he you know, kind of drunkenly.
Assumed to say, yeah, his family's out there. I don't want to make an axation, but yeah, I think definitely. But this is how people lived, even the Hayward family. There's a lot of parties at Carrick Hill drinking. This is when people used to drink before the pageants. Yes, it's a totally different era, so people reading it have to remember we're talking about many, many different eras over one hundred and thirty two years.
Absolutely, he lived down around the Plympton area, didn't He somewhere Marion Road around one of those big houses through there.
And that house is still there. It's now a nursing home. Okay, so still part of the state heritage, right. But yeah, like I said, is that the Southern Cross one? It is his property. All right, there we go. So that's Johnny's Johnny's house, mister Martin's. Okay, So where to next because obviously the launch today A you're doing anything at Hayward House up there Carriy Kill. Yeah, so they've been really kind. We've been in discussions about a future event in November, so hoping to do a public talk there and I talk with the friends of Carrot Kill, so the volunteers just because we were trying to share information about the Hayward family and they're very private, so both of us have come to I had to share a lot of notes, and even Richard Hayward, who's been really a darling man in helping me it, doesn't know much about the family. So we've really been digging into these people. But there will also be an event next week at the State Library, which but very limited tickets.
Now okay, all right, so there's still tickets for today, Okay, all right. So the book is being launched today and available I imagine Paul in all good bookstores soon.
Well, yes, it's available at all Dimmicks stores in Adelaide, so rundelmor Glenell, Hyde Park and also Dylan's in Norwood and people can also find it at the Carrick Hill gift Shop and the Reading's bookstores in Victoria, which is where I live now. And it's also with Bob Burns's web store. Remember when, Oh.
Yes, absolutely, We've spoken with Bob about Johnny's a couple of times over the years. Just looking through some of the photos, one of the things that just reminded me just took me back to the nineteen eighties. Immediately the salmon pink decor. They in an upgrade. I don't know when, probably early eighties they went salmon pink and that seemed to survive into its last days around the place.
It was money well spent.
Yeah, but I'd forgotten that and looking at it, of course it was salmon pink towards its last few years for whatever reason. But amazing and the lifts was certainly a part of it. The first escalator in South Australia.
Yeah, I mean the thing with the Hayward family and they always want to be the first.
Yeah.
You know, this is why people also have fond memories because it had the first miniskirt in Adelaide really apparently, yes, and brought the Beatles to town. The first escalator, the first soda fountain. Apparently the soda fountain was so popular that the police had to be called a kid. This is like a time where people were really dazzled by technology and Johnny's and department stores with a leader of those sort of things to draw people in.
How clever getting Johnny's involved in the Beatles again marketing, Yeah, you probably not necessarily seen that way in the way marketing guru would today, but kind of led the way in that yeah.
I mean definitely driven by Bob France, yes, and Ron Tremaine, yes. But without Johnny stepping in, it wouldn't have happened. And it was Ian Haywood, Richard's father who said we have to have the Beatles come to town. And again this wasn't of course, you know, it led back to Johnny's with the customers being loyal. But this was again another example of a company saying South Australia cannot miss out, so really ahead of its time. That was a big coup for them.
If you want to share a story, while Paul's here eight double two to three double O double. Oh, Paul, I've got to tell you, having been involved for the last I forget how many years now, thirteen I think fourteen maybe with the Christmas pageant, and I'm lucky enough to drive one of the double decker London buses that they've got one of the two, the open top one is the one I have in the pageant. And last year the chief mechanic in the warehouse showed me in I should say Stardust Castle, showed me the records of buying the two buses, bringing them out from England and the history of the buses back in the UK as well, and that was just really interesting looking at the invoices and I think they cost six thousand dollars or whatever to buy and bring to Australia and they've been in use now for the last fifty years. And the pageant and it's just a little bit of history. But you see the letterhead and the letters and everything else going back and forth.
Yes, And I mean that's pretty much where I spent a life six years going through every document, every filly paper note in the State records off first the State Library. They're well known there, so I didn't I turned over every stone I possibly could just squeeze into this book. And I think this book often people say to me, is it a coffee book? But I also say it's the sort of thing you could take to bed and read because every I've tried to cram in as much in the very beginning to the very end, full of stories and little hints about what Adelaide was like as times were changing.
Absolutely, and I can see that I can capture that just in flicking through it over the last twenty minutes or so the stories in here. Did you is there anything you've left out you might want to share about Johnny since you've found in those records, but for whatever reason, you could something that sticks in the back of your mind as well. That's interesting.
Well, yeah, I think actually just the way the Haywards conducted business, you know, they and I mean this with all respect, they were a very stuffy of British family running this business. And they while they recognized talent and they did that very well with shoulder taps, you know, and people like Jeff Coles, he recognized his talent and he went on to be a Johnny's legend, but and the same time very private, very peculiar, and how they did things. As a story that Pat Scott, one of the store managers told me that Sir Edward, as he was known as mister Bill, was running late for a meeting and he drove his car down North Terrace and left it there running and ran into the store and just told the secretary can go out in the middle the street and park my car. So there's all these sort of little funny stories. So they did things.
Okay, all right, slip the headphones on. We've got Jeane on the phone from Gilbert and Hi, Jane, how are you good morning?
I'm real thank you. I had the privilege of being in charge of a book that was set up by John Martins to give good wishes to the royal couple, Prince Charles and Diana on the occasional their marriage. So we needed to kill ten thousand signatures, which we did in a very short time, and then it was it was delivered to this book where it was delivered.
To Government House and then passed.
On to the Prince.
How about that was my little my little bit of My daughter also worked there for quite a time as media managers, and so John Martin was certainly a name we will never forget.
Yeah, absolutely no, that's that's spot on. Good on you Jene, thank you. It sounds like the Beatles, doesn't it, collecting signatures? It does well.
It's funny about the Royals because the as I say, they were very British, the Hayward family, they were Royalists to the point where they had big banners of the Royal family on the side of the building right, just celebrating the coronation as well. And so Edward actually hosted the Queen Mother to see Hans Iyson in the art gallery John Martin ok. And I can just imagine seeing the photos. While he was very private, that must have been a huge occasion for him. Must probably didn't sleep the night before. Tracy at Mudburray Heights, Hi, Trace.
Hello, how are you all?
We're good.
I used to work with John Martin's in the basement cafeteria.
I remember the cafeteria in near the lay By section.
Yes, that was my very first part time job. I had two sisters that work there and my nana as well.
What did they do well?
We all worked in the Okay, yeah, that's where we had our first part time jobs. Then I got us for Christmas and Royal show money. Yes, and that was fun. I would have done back then. Other people don't even know there was a cafeteria down.
They Yeah, there certainly was, Yeah, and the battery upstairs. And there was something else, wasn't there.
There was the flower Pot in years, and then there was Elias's after the changed, but there was always lots of places to eat Johnny's.
Yeah.
Well I'm six true. So it was a while ago that I did the base in cafeteria.
Thank you. Cafeterias and department stores were the thing, and there was no meccas, there were no food halls. It was cafeterias.
Yeah, in the departments definitely, And I mean the memories of the buttery, and I wish I had more photos of it, but that was that was where people would often go for lunch after long day shopping, and it was very clever to keep the people in the store that way.
Yeah. Absolutely. Debbie at Udbury Heights hid Debbie Gooday.
Yeah, I'm just bringing up when I found out heard that the Martins were going to close, I wanted to get something to remember them by, and I missed out on the watch, but I brought the plate. The Calimeter of Pain has got Jo Martins on the front of us. People have said to me that it reminds them of parents in England because it looks very much like it. But didn't he come from England originally?
He did?
Yes, Yeah, so that's that's what I loved to love your month. My mum used to go there every Christmas because she had seven kids and she used always buy our toys from the toy department, the magic kay that the pageant. Oh, I just just love that sort. I'm pretty sad that it is closed.
Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, So I just would like to know about the plate ye's got your mountains on?
And when it was and whatever?
Yeah, good on your DeBie, thank you? How about that the play It would have been so much memorabilia.
Yeah, I mean I am a terrible collector of it, so anyone finding anything, I've already bought it. But the plate that the lady was referring to as a Wedgewood plate that was organized as a short run when the store closed, and that was a keepsake for the staff and the customers at the end.
Now I'm just thrilled to death, Paul, because I found the photo of the bus I drive in your book. Just came across it. I thought I'll look through the Christmas pageant part and there it is on page eighty four, so that's the same bus and this is from eighty three, this photo and still going strong today. That's good to Yeah, yes, absolutely, well, I'm going to enjoy reading this. Thank you and well done on producing just a brilliant looking book. And you can't help but browse through it. And every time you stop on any page there's photos to look at. There's obviously words to go with them, and it's not a photo book. It's the whole story of Johnny's but there are photos on every single page and you want to stop and look at them as you flick through because the history captured so well, how long did it take you to write?
Five and a half year?
Wow?
Yes, and this is my first book.
Yes, what's next?
Well, there's some talk about some other projects with John Martin's, so potentially a documentary and a series of viral history records next year, but I think I'll focus on the book for now. There's a lot of talk events and things like that, but people are coming out of the woodwork and I have to say thank you to everyone that has contacted me, because there's only goodwill towards me in the book doing well and I hope that brings back memories of Johnny's for everyone.
I'm sure it will, and I've got a plenty that have flooded back just looking through the pages. Thank you for your time today, Hope, Thank you. Paul Flavel, my guest. He has written a book called John Martin's The Story of South Australia's Beloved Department Store or Beloved, and it is available now Dimmicks. As he said from bob Burns, Australia, remember when Adelaide, Remember when Paige and you can have a look at that as well and find copies of it there in order online but certainly available at all Dimmock stores around the place.