Evenings with Leith ForrestListen live on the FIVEAA Player.
A double two to three double is my number. Will get to more of your calls shortly. But I think everyone's been taken by the horrifying scenes in the news coming out of Washington, d C with the aviation disaster involving the passenger jet and the military helicopter there at Ronald Reagan Airport in Washington, d C. How on earth does this happen? Neil Hansford is an aviation expert. He's an aviation consultant who has operated airlines around the world, including Australia, Asia and through Europe. He joins me this evening, Neil, thanks so much for your time.
It's a pleasure.
How on earth does this happen? Neil?
This happens in because of procedures in the way that one of the most difficult airports in the world, with twenty three million passengers, has been left alone for political reasons, and more of the traffic wasn't forced to go out the twenty six miles out to Dulles, and the politicians have wanted to have it and they've been prepared to compromise it, and as they've kept expanding it, they've reduced the runways. But you have to get special procedures training to even operate into it. So it's a very difficult thing. And then you got all the helicopters there coming out of Port Velve. It's just a prescription for a disaster. And it could have happened anytime, any number of times.
Anytime these kind of things happened. Neil, we look first and foremost, I guess was it mechanical. But I've heard you say this is sadly and tragically, this is human error.
This is human factors and human in that the procedures you just shouldn't operate like this. And secondly, the human factor is that the captain on the chopper, they asked the question, can you see the aircraft? He saw the wrong aircraft. There was another aircraft because you've got two runways and this aircraft it had the runway changed. So from the time that he'd taken off, the traffic was arriving on the runway one five and then they change this one to runway three to three. So he was looking at the wrong aircraft and he was planning to go behind it as directed. But he's going behind the wrong aircraft.
There seems to be mistakes made everywhere here. Neil, and I guess a tragedy of the industry is that this is all recorded. You will be able to play it out. Investigators will be able to know exactly where the failings were, of which it appears there were more than one.
You and any one of your listeners have now got access to all of the air traffic dialogue. Because that's on an app. You can look and see the movement of the aircraft, what height they were, app So you've got so much information the air traffic. The investigators haven't gone more than what's available to you in all of the apps on your iPhone or your Android. Now that's public information, so no one can hide, no one can run, and no one can lie.
So as an expert in this field, you're a consultant. You're an expert when it comes to aviation. It appears as though the passenger did nothing wrong.
Correct exactly none. He was experienced, He was on he was on short finals. They changed his runway to and they asked him the question could he land on three to three which is only five six hundred feet and he was planning to run on seven thousand, and he said, yes, I can. He was then cleared to go on to runway three to three, and it appears as a communications because they used sometimes different frequencies, and all they asked the chopper was look, don't stop and hold and let the aircraft clear. They've let him keep coming, and they've said can you see the aircraft and he said yes, but it was the wrong aircraft.
So is it then the responsibility of the black Hawk helicopter pilot or is this or in air traffic control? This is a huge failing from their point of view.
Huge failing from their point of view, because when you have a potential conflict, you would have said to all traffic on runway three to three, go round. You basically send all the aircraft around. Then you get all your ducks in a row, get them all lined up, and then come again. Or you would have said to the chopper pilot, hold in your current position, which you can with a helicopter. Now, these computer software on the aircraft, the tea cast the collision avoidance that did activate, and it took control of that aircraft and it banked to the right, but the helicopter kept coming. Now, if the helicopter had teacasts, not that it's possible on a rotary aircraft. He would have been steered away from it and they would have just gone very close and gone home and changed the changed their undies.
It's unbelievable. Neil Hansford, he my guess aviation expert. We're hearing Neil, Is there any chance that the air traffic controller could have been doing two jobs and therefore not concentrating fully? Could that ever happen in Australia?
It can't happen in Australia. But the procedure is where you mix military and civil traffic in the same theater, not with separations. It won't happen in Australia. We just don't do it. And we don't have any aircraft coming crossing a flight a flight path, especially an arrivals flight path. Nothing crosses it. You go round to the back of it. Even if you're in the same theater, the raft space is marked and you don't go into it. So it's not going to happen here. But look, you I have to say, only in America. Yeah, Well, you know the regulator will have a lot to be attributed to them that they've allowed this to happen. Now they've got a crazy system here at Washington, where one controller controls the helicopter and another controller controls the fixed wing aircraft. And they were short of manning, and so that one guy was controlling the helicopter and controlling the fixed wing aircraft. So he would have had so many balls in the air. And I'm not saying it wouldn't have happened if they'd been under separate control. If a guy's got nothing else to but control the helicopter, he would have steered it away, made it hold in its position. He would have been able to take the action. But there wasn't two people involved in this operation.
How does that happen? Neil? Is that commonplace do you know overseas? Or is it post COVID?
It's shorty nine that coves it's shortage of labor, and we have we have shortage of labor in Australia, and we've got such a militant union controlling the air traffic controllers that they will reduce the number of landings. They will We've already got what could be considered a luxurious separation between aircraft of at least two minutes. They would if they can't control it, they would step it out to five minutes to give them the chance to do their job properly.
Yes, God, it's horrific. It is failing as an all front. We're seeing Donald Trump talk about it, Jude Evans talk about it, as well as becoming politicized now in terms of the quality of people, the type of people. Is this a wake up call do you think for the industry and will there be big shakeups?
Oh? What's going to be a wake up? Look? The FAA deserves to be just absolutely ripped apart. I've lived in the environment of the CIA in the UK and the European regulators and KASSA in Australia and these are serious, conservative, ultra safe organizations. I can't say the same about the FAA.
Because you would think the air traffic controller and I think Jude Evans might have said it. They need to be the smartest people in the room. This is a really tough job, isn't it, Neil that you can't just as you say you can't juggle balls, there's no way you can do this kind of job under that kind of stress at such a huge airport.
Exactly right. But it's pressure, and it's often clear that it's unrealistic pressure. To maintain it for a full shift and then find your undermanned. It's like taking half the nurses out of a hospital and hoping that nobody dies. So but the airport fundamentally shouldn't be what it is, and it's been that way for thirty years. So the politicians who were the ones who are the biggest beneficiaries of having it there, because they don't they're quite happy to be four miles from Capitol Hill. Well, I'd rather go to twenty six miles and live to talk about it.
It's a great point. Sixty four people on board. Tragically no survivors there. The Army helicopter no survivors there too, And we're told that the pilot and the co pilot had fifteen hundred odd flight hours between them two. So I guess that's experienced Neil. That again the tragedy that should never have happened.
Yeah, but in Australia, the captain of the CRJ with only two thousand hours probably wouldn't have a command with either Quantus or Virgin really okay, And when you look at the Army pilot, he's got a thousand hours and they're talking about him being highly experienced it's an environment, it's a culture, and we've got a conservative British type culture and thank God has got it. I'm very happy when the blow it makes the announcement in the left hand seat and he's an Aussie because I know he's training, and I've been involved in training. I know what they've got to do. I know how hard it is to get their license. And if anything, we've got a problem is the pilots at the bottom end of the scale aren't well paid. But at the top end of the the scale, which takes them a long time, not when they're trying to buy a house, are very well paid. So we've got a problem in distribution. But I'm very happy to fly in Australia. I have chosen not to fly into this airport over about the last forty years.
It's fascinating insight. It's a horrifying situation and obviously, you know, condolences and thoughts with everyone involved. Neil, thanks so much, really appreciate your time and telling us all about it.
That's always a pleasure.
All the best. New Hansford Aviation Expert, aviation consultant. How on earth did this happen? More to play out investigations and hopefully a shake up of the system too. Neil Hansford, my guest,
