Powerful collaborations, cutting edge science and curious minds coming together for a glimpse of the future. Stay tuned as we look at the latest updates on some of the most promising technology projects.

Powerful collaborations, cutting edge science and curious minds coming together for a glimpse of the future. Stay tuned as we look at the latest updates on some of the most promising technology projects.

Hello and welcome. I'm Peter Balint from Technikon and today we look at the FutureTPM project once again. The last time we learned that this project is addressing the elephant in the room: What happens when the really fast computers of the future have the ability to break all the cryptographic security we have in place today? We are talking about quantum computers of course. Computationally, they're exponentially faster than anything we know. And they are coming... for sure. The FutureTPM project is the proactive approach to ensuring our security standards stand up to quantum computing. And to be even more specific. The consortium is paving the way to the quantum resistance trusted platform module or QR TPM. Today we are joined by Li Chen professor in secure systems at the University of Surrey. She is the technical lead in FutureTPM. Thanks for taking the time to be with us today.

Hello and welcome. I'm Peter Balint from Technikon and today we look at the FutureTPM project once again. The last time we learned that this project is addressing the elephant in the room: What happens when the really fast computers of the future have the ability to break all the cryptographic security we have in place today? We are talking about quantum computers of course. Computationally, they're exponentially faster than anything we know. And they are coming... for sure. The FutureTPM project is the proactive approach to ensuring our security standards stand up to quantum computing. And to be even more specific. The consortium is paving the way to the quantum resistance trusted platform module or QR TPM. Today we are joined by Li Chen professor in secure systems at the University of Surrey. She is the technical lead in FutureTPM. Thanks for taking the time to be with us today.

Thank you. Thanks for having me here. I'm pleased to talk to you about our project.

Thank you. Thanks for having me here. I'm pleased to talk to you about our project.

The trusted platform module or TPM is at the center of your project Li. Let's start with learning more about the TPM. What does it do? Where do we find it?

The trusted platform module or TPM is at the center of your project Li. Let's start with learning more about the TPM. What does it do? Where do we find it?

This is a good question to start. A TPM is a small chip which is tamper resistant. There are different ways to say what it is that chip. Cryptographers probably say this is a cryptographic co- processor and engineers probably say this is a security anchor and TCG who developed the specification of TPM will say this is a root of trust.

This is a good question to start. A TPM is a small chip which is tamper resistant. There are different ways to say what it is that chip. Cryptographers probably say this is a cryptographic co- processor and engineers probably say this is a security anchor and TCG who developed the specification of TPM will say this is a root of trust.

And you say TCG what does that stand for?

And you say TCG what does that stand for?

TCG stands for Trusted Computing Group. This is the industry standard body. So many many computer industry companies are the member

TCG stands for Trusted Computing Group. This is the industry standard body. So many many computer industry companies are the member

And the Trusted Computing Group sort of come up with the original TPM?

And the Trusted Computing Group sort of come up with the original TPM?

Yeah. They are the developer of TPM specifications. They have been there for many years -since 1999. In 1999 it's not called the TCG. It's got a different name. In 2003 they changed the name to TCG and they have more and more members.

Yeah. They are the developer of TPM specifications. They have been there for many years -since 1999. In 1999 it's not called the TCG. It's got a different name. In 2003 they changed the name to TCG and they have more and more members.

OK. And so the TCG would call the TPM a root of trust. Basically what this means is that the TPM is in simple terms a piece of hardware that works to secure a computer whether it's a personal computer or a part of a server cluster.

OK. And so the TCG would call the TPM a root of trust. Basically what this means is that the TPM is in simple terms a piece of hardware that works to secure a computer whether it's a personal computer or a part of a server cluster.

Yeah. This is original desin goal. A TPM currently is embedded in many computer platforms based on the TCG message. TPM is installed in probably over a billion computer platforms including many PCs. Probably most PCs have TPM and some servers, network switches and a lot of different platforms. Actually a TPM now is just a set of functions. It's not even necessarily a hardware chip. From TCG's point of view, a TPM is not restricted to be a hardware chip. It could be implemented in a different way like an integrated TPM, a firmware TPM, a virtual machine environment TPM and the software TPM. Also a different type of TPM will provide the different levels of tamper resistancy.

Yeah. This is original desin goal. A TPM currently is embedded in many computer platforms based on the TCG message. TPM is installed in probably over a billion computer platforms including many PCs. Probably most PCs have TPM and some servers, network switches and a lot of different platforms. Actually a TPM now is just a set of functions. It's not even necessarily a hardware chip. From TCG's point of view, a TPM is not restricted to be a hardware chip. It could be implemented in a different way like an integrated TPM, a firmware TPM, a virtual machine environment TPM and the software TPM. Also a different type of TPM will provide the different levels of tamper resistancy.

From what you just said it sounds like TPM is everywhere. And that's good. This is a good thing. But there's also a challenge for TPM and that is the fact that somewhere down the road we will be exposed to quantum computing. Quantum computing will enter our realm and quantum computing for the people that don't know it is to keep things really basic. It's just a really really really super powerful computer that could do something in 10 minutes that previously took five years for example. This means that the security that we use today and we're talking about the TPM here when quantum computing comes may not be so effective anymore. Do we have the basic concept correct here?

From what you just said it sounds like TPM is everywhere. And that's good. This is a good thing. But there's also a challenge for TPM and that is the fact that somewhere down the road we will be exposed to quantum computing. Quantum computing will enter our realm and quantum computing for the people that don't know it is to keep things really basic. It's just a really really really super powerful computer that could do something in 10 minutes that previously took five years for example. This means that the security that we use today and we're talking about the TPM here when quantum computing comes may not be so effective anymore. Do we have the basic concept correct here?

Yes. Quantum computers because they can do the parallel computation and they have faster searching and also they can particularly solve some mathematics problems which are difficulty for the conventional computers. So today those problems in particular I mean two problems that we used everywhere is a factorization problem and discrete logarithm problem. Those two problems are the foundation for many common used asymmetric cryptographic algorithms like asymmetric encryption digital signatures which TPM uses as well. So because a large quantum computer can solve those problems. So those asymmetric encryption and digital signature algorithms where no longer safe with quantum computers attack . So that's why we need changing this situation. We need to add a quantum resistant algorithms into TPM which are not based on those two mathematics problems based on some other problems so which we believe quantum computer cannot attack at least for many years.

Yes. Quantum computers because they can do the parallel computation and they have faster searching and also they can particularly solve some mathematics problems which are difficulty for the conventional computers. So today those problems in particular I mean two problems that we used everywhere is a factorization problem and discrete logarithm problem. Those two problems are the foundation for many common used asymmetric cryptographic algorithms like asymmetric encryption digital signatures which TPM uses as well. So because a large quantum computer can solve those problems. So those asymmetric encryption and digital signature algorithms where no longer safe with quantum computers attack . So that's why we need changing this situation. We need to add a quantum resistant algorithms into TPM which are not based on those two mathematics problems based on some other problems so which we believe quantum computer cannot attack at least for many years.

And so the the idea of FutureTPM was to at least start thinking about design to create quantum resistant TPMs. This project is done at the end of the year so can you tell me -have you achieved your goals? What's the current status of the quantum resistant TPM?

And so the the idea of FutureTPM was to at least start thinking about design to create quantum resistant TPMs. This project is done at the end of the year so can you tell me -have you achieved your goals? What's the current status of the quantum resistant TPM?

Yes or no. Yeah we have developed and identified a set of quantum resistant cryptographic algorithms. We believe those sets of algorithms that are suitable for inclusion in a FutureTPM. Not all of them were designed by ourselves. We followed the NIST's which is a standard body; their post quantum cryptographic standardization activities. So we followed that their activities. So we took some results from them and we also designed some algorithms which is not NIST covered. We have implemented those algorithms and the tested their performance. We also have talked to TCG about our result. So, in one side we are ready to recommend something to be included in FutureTPM . But this research is not the end yet. We still carry on doing it try to improve algorithms and their implementations to make the performance is better. It's not a complete finished... our goal; It's still ongoing.

Yes or no. Yeah we have developed and identified a set of quantum resistant cryptographic algorithms. We believe those sets of algorithms that are suitable for inclusion in a FutureTPM. Not all of them were designed by ourselves. We followed the NIST's which is a standard body; their post quantum cryptographic standardization activities. So we followed that their activities. So we took some results from them and we also designed some algorithms which is not NIST covered. We have implemented those algorithms and the tested their performance. We also have talked to TCG about our result. So, in one side we are ready to recommend something to be included in FutureTPM . But this research is not the end yet. We still carry on doing it try to improve algorithms and their implementations to make the performance is better. It's not a complete finished... our goal; It's still ongoing.

Right, I would imagine this would take quite a bit of time to actually get this to the point where you really have a quantum resistant TPM but this is a good start... the way it sounds and especially because of the fact that you mentioned that you talked with the TCG about some of your results and this is an important thing for you. Tell us what this means for the project that you got the recognition of the TCG.

Right, I would imagine this would take quite a bit of time to actually get this to the point where you really have a quantum resistant TPM but this is a good start... the way it sounds and especially because of the fact that you mentioned that you talked with the TCG about some of your results and this is an important thing for you. Tell us what this means for the project that you got the recognition of the TCG.

Yes because our project is about the future TPM and the TPM specifications are developed by TCG and the TCG actually own the tech knowledge of TPM. So if we want to recommend some algorithms to be included in FutureTPM we have to go through TCG that's for sure and actually we have very good collaboration with TCG from day one. Because number one, we have a number of core TCG members they are actually in our consortium. So we are not isolated from TCG. And also we have TCG technical committee chairman. We have a TPM working group chairman. They are our member of the advisory board. So TCG are actually involved in our project from beginning. And recently we have arranged a meeting with a TPM working group with TCG members to introduce our result and that they are happy to hear this. And our working relationship with TCG has been doing very well.

Yes because our project is about the future TPM and the TPM specifications are developed by TCG and the TCG actually own the tech knowledge of TPM. So if we want to recommend some algorithms to be included in FutureTPM we have to go through TCG that's for sure and actually we have very good collaboration with TCG from day one. Because number one, we have a number of core TCG members they are actually in our consortium. So we are not isolated from TCG. And also we have TCG technical committee chairman. We have a TPM working group chairman. They are our member of the advisory board. So TCG are actually involved in our project from beginning. And recently we have arranged a meeting with a TPM working group with TCG members to introduce our result and that they are happy to hear this. And our working relationship with TCG has been doing very well.

And that's great news for the project for the FutureTPM project. It's also great news for some of the research that's happening here in Europe.

And that's great news for the project for the FutureTPM project. It's also great news for some of the research that's happening here in Europe.

Yes that's true. Yeah Europe plays a very important role in the information security technology, trusted computing technologies; yes it's certainly good for Europe and Europe also is a big market for the TPMs.

Yes that's true. Yeah Europe plays a very important role in the information security technology, trusted computing technologies; yes it's certainly good for Europe and Europe also is a big market for the TPMs.

Yes absolutely. Li, I wanted to go back to something we talked about a few minutes ago which was the idea of quantum computing for many people listening this may be a new concept that they haven't heard before and the question they might be asking is what kind of threat is this, how long do we have, when is this coming? Maybe you could put things in perspective about when should we anticipate the entrance of quantum computing into our day to day life.

Yes absolutely. Li, I wanted to go back to something we talked about a few minutes ago which was the idea of quantum computing for many people listening this may be a new concept that they haven't heard before and the question they might be asking is what kind of threat is this, how long do we have, when is this coming? Maybe you could put things in perspective about when should we anticipate the entrance of quantum computing into our day to day life.

Well we actually don't know for sure when a quantum computer... I mean large scale quantum computers will become a reality. Although we have small quantum computers with a limited number of qubits, we already know that. But for the quantum computer to be able to break the crypto algorithms we commonly use is a different thing. When the will be available no one can say for sure but the things we need to do is we have to prepare a smooth transitions from today's crypto solution to tomorrow. We cannot wait until a quantum computer coming out. Some people predict... say the quantum computer will coming in 15 years or 20 years but we cannot waiting for 15 years or 20 years to start our research. We have to make a quantum resistant TPM ready before the time coming. So, by the smooth transition I mean this transition should not affect most of TPM applications. We need to make those applications to be able to carry on before quantum computer coming out or after. So, actually for this FutureTPM project, we say that we are going to design and develop a quantum resistant TPM, but we actually not to try to design a new TPM from scratch. We try to identify those suitable quantum resistant crypto algorithms for FutureTPM and we're going to adding those algorithms in the TPM algorithm registry and to make it to ready for the quantum computer coming out.

Well we actually don't know for sure when a quantum computer... I mean large scale quantum computers will become a reality. Although we have small quantum computers with a limited number of qubits, we already know that. But for the quantum computer to be able to break the crypto algorithms we commonly use is a different thing. When the will be available no one can say for sure but the things we need to do is we have to prepare a smooth transitions from today's crypto solution to tomorrow. We cannot wait until a quantum computer coming out. Some people predict... say the quantum computer will coming in 15 years or 20 years but we cannot waiting for 15 years or 20 years to start our research. We have to make a quantum resistant TPM ready before the time coming. So, by the smooth transition I mean this transition should not affect most of TPM applications. We need to make those applications to be able to carry on before quantum computer coming out or after. So, actually for this FutureTPM project, we say that we are going to design and develop a quantum resistant TPM, but we actually not to try to design a new TPM from scratch. We try to identify those suitable quantum resistant crypto algorithms for FutureTPM and we're going to adding those algorithms in the TPM algorithm registry and to make it to ready for the quantum computer coming out.

And this makes much more sense rather than developing something from new. You're taking what's existing and just doing what you have to do to make sure that it works in a quantum computing world. Yeah it makes perfect sense and it seems like that if for example this does not happen and if quantum computing then can find a way to break the security that we're we're used to today that we enjoy this means everything could be at risk here. Medical records, authentication credentials, financial and banking data - so the impact of a quantum resistant TPM could be quite profound.

And this makes much more sense rather than developing something from new. You're taking what's existing and just doing what you have to do to make sure that it works in a quantum computing world. Yeah it makes perfect sense and it seems like that if for example this does not happen and if quantum computing then can find a way to break the security that we're we're used to today that we enjoy this means everything could be at risk here. Medical records, authentication credentials, financial and banking data - so the impact of a quantum resistant TPM could be quite profound.

That's true. Yeah for data protection and the currently many platform use TPM for example like Microsoft to use TPM to make for disk encryption which is called bitlock and also many other manufacturers use TPM for a different service like attestation service which is a typical TPM functionalities to support the platforms to be able to communicate to each other safely and to check the trustworthiness of their communication partners. Yeah. This is all very relevant and important to the world.

That's true. Yeah for data protection and the currently many platform use TPM for example like Microsoft to use TPM to make for disk encryption which is called bitlock and also many other manufacturers use TPM for a different service like attestation service which is a typical TPM functionalities to support the platforms to be able to communicate to each other safely and to check the trustworthiness of their communication partners. Yeah. This is all very relevant and important to the world.

Li, I want to ask you about the consortium a little bit like any other European project this is not done by a couple of people this is done by a team actually. So what kind of people or organizations make up the FutureTPM consortium?

Li, I want to ask you about the consortium a little bit like any other European project this is not done by a couple of people this is done by a team actually. So what kind of people or organizations make up the FutureTPM consortium?

Yeah, we have a very strong and friendly consortium. Our project includes 15 partners from 10 different European countries. We have seven academic partners.. I mean 7 universities and we also have 4 large enterprise companies... companies I mean the unit of companies. And we have a number of SMEs. We have 4 SME partners for the larger company partners. And the seven universities. That's not the only thing I'm proud of. And we also have skills, experience and in the different levels from those consulting partners which are all keen things for our projects. It's a balanced team.

Yeah, we have a very strong and friendly consortium. Our project includes 15 partners from 10 different European countries. We have seven academic partners.. I mean 7 universities and we also have 4 large enterprise companies... companies I mean the unit of companies. And we have a number of SMEs. We have 4 SME partners for the larger company partners. And the seven universities. That's not the only thing I'm proud of. And we also have skills, experience and in the different levels from those consulting partners which are all keen things for our projects. It's a balanced team.

And that's really the beauty of a project like this is that you can bring in people from all different levels and you're all working towards a certain goal to get things done.

And that's really the beauty of a project like this is that you can bring in people from all different levels and you're all working towards a certain goal to get things done.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Tell me about challenges you've encountered. I mean there's always some stories about things that were unexpected or events that happened. I mean maybe in this case it's, you know, the COVID-19 pandemic to sort of put a stop to everything. Can you tell me what kind of challenges you encountered?

Tell me about challenges you've encountered. I mean there's always some stories about things that were unexpected or events that happened. I mean maybe in this case it's, you know, the COVID-19 pandemic to sort of put a stop to everything. Can you tell me what kind of challenges you encountered?

Like any other project, our projects also faced different challenges and the from my point of view, the challenges for our project in three different aspects. The first one is a technical challenge because this is a multi-task research project. We need to consider the theoretical research and the practical research. So neither of them is easy. For example, a special anonymous digital signature schemes which we call the quantum resistant direct anonymous attestation which is required for FutureTPM; by the way, the direct anonymous attestation, called the DAA is a special crypto digital signatures which was originally designed for TPM. So we need a quantum resistant version of course but this has not existed before our project to start. So we needed to design by ourselves and also when we needed to find practical with a good performance of DAA schemes. This is a really a challenge... a technical challenge. There are many other technical challenges. Then the second aspect it is about time challenge. Because this project is in an early stage of post quantum crypto researches. So many standard bodies they have started to consider the standardization for post quantum cryptography, but the standards for post quantum crypto is not actually ready yet. So we needed to synchronize our work with standard bodies such as NIST, ISO/IEC, IETF etc. So this time challenge is also what we have to face. So we needed to take that results from NIST, for example, we needed to justify our recommendations to the FutureTPM based on the NIST result. So this is about the time challenge. And the last one which probably many EU projects face too... because European projects in general is larger with a lot of partners a lot of expertise. You mentioned COVID- 19... Yeah, COVID-19 certainly is a challenge and we have to work online, but our research, our project work has never been stopped or slowed down because of COVID-19 and we just moved all our meetings online. That's OK. And for resource management challenge it's not only about moving our work from face to face meeting to online meeting it's also... we were challenged by the researcher's movement. Since like, a three year project it is a bit long, and the many key researchers during those three years, only now two year and a half, they have changed their jobs and they move around so some people are no longer be our official members during the project. So we have to... even our advisory board members and some of them moved. So we have to keep their skills their experience and their contributions within the project. So we try to keep them as much as we possibly could. For example, if a person cannot be a project official member then we invited them to be our advisory board member and we still keep their contributions their consultations in the group I hope I answer the questions because this question seems to have more things I can possibly cover.

Like any other project, our projects also faced different challenges and the from my point of view, the challenges for our project in three different aspects. The first one is a technical challenge because this is a multi-task research project. We need to consider the theoretical research and the practical research. So neither of them is easy. For example, a special anonymous digital signature schemes which we call the quantum resistant direct anonymous attestation which is required for FutureTPM; by the way, the direct anonymous attestation, called the DAA is a special crypto digital signatures which was originally designed for TPM. So we need a quantum resistant version of course but this has not existed before our project to start. So we needed to design by ourselves and also when we needed to find practical with a good performance of DAA schemes. This is a really a challenge... a technical challenge. There are many other technical challenges. Then the second aspect it is about time challenge. Because this project is in an early stage of post quantum crypto researches. So many standard bodies they have started to consider the standardization for post quantum cryptography, but the standards for post quantum crypto is not actually ready yet. So we needed to synchronize our work with standard bodies such as NIST, ISO/IEC, IETF etc. So this time challenge is also what we have to face. So we needed to take that results from NIST, for example, we needed to justify our recommendations to the FutureTPM based on the NIST result. So this is about the time challenge. And the last one which probably many EU projects face too... because European projects in general is larger with a lot of partners a lot of expertise. You mentioned COVID- 19... Yeah, COVID-19 certainly is a challenge and we have to work online, but our research, our project work has never been stopped or slowed down because of COVID-19 and we just moved all our meetings online. That's OK. And for resource management challenge it's not only about moving our work from face to face meeting to online meeting it's also... we were challenged by the researcher's movement. Since like, a three year project it is a bit long, and the many key researchers during those three years, only now two year and a half, they have changed their jobs and they move around so some people are no longer be our official members during the project. So we have to... even our advisory board members and some of them moved. So we have to keep their skills their experience and their contributions within the project. So we try to keep them as much as we possibly could. For example, if a person cannot be a project official member then we invited them to be our advisory board member and we still keep their contributions their consultations in the group I hope I answer the questions because this question seems to have more things I can possibly cover.

Yeah, no that was a great answer to the question and I think it proves that maybe flexibility is the key to success when you're doing a large project like this and a project that spans three years for example. So it sounds like you've done that in FutureTPM that you've been flexible and you took challenges as they came and pretty amazing that you didn't have to slow anything down during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Yeah, no that was a great answer to the question and I think it proves that maybe flexibility is the key to success when you're doing a large project like this and a project that spans three years for example. So it sounds like you've done that in FutureTPM that you've been flexible and you took challenges as they came and pretty amazing that you didn't have to slow anything down during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Yes we have done our best. I believe

Yes we have done our best. I believe

I have one final question for you Li and that is, from a personal level, what does success look like for you in FutureTPM? So, in other words, at the end of the project what is it that will make you happy and sit back and say, wow, I've done everything I wanted to do with this project.

I have one final question for you Li and that is, from a personal level, what does success look like for you in FutureTPM? So, in other words, at the end of the project what is it that will make you happy and sit back and say, wow, I've done everything I wanted to do with this project.

Yes for success of a project I think probably can see from a different levels: as academic and I would like to see the good publications for sure and as a project we we also needed to to finish our target properly like deliverables, demonstrators and that we should do them in time and also do them with a good quality but, I think for this particular project because we try to create to some solutions which can be used in the world. We tried to recommend the right to things to in the FutureTPM as a real chip... real tech knowledge so I think a successful from my point my point to you is we also want to this project to benefit to the world; we want the end users at the end to use our designed, developed or recommended crypto algorithms they will be included in the FutureTPM.

Yes for success of a project I think probably can see from a different levels: as academic and I would like to see the good publications for sure and as a project we we also needed to to finish our target properly like deliverables, demonstrators and that we should do them in time and also do them with a good quality but, I think for this particular project because we try to create to some solutions which can be used in the world. We tried to recommend the right to things to in the FutureTPM as a real chip... real tech knowledge so I think a successful from my point my point to you is we also want to this project to benefit to the world; we want the end users at the end to use our designed, developed or recommended crypto algorithms they will be included in the FutureTPM.

OK and that's a great goal. And it sounds like that's something that will be achieved. I must say this is a project where most people listening maybe had no idea even existed. But you've done a great job in explaining how this works and what you're trying to do. So I say thank you for that. Also thank you for your contribution to science to making our world a better place. It's appreciated sometimes we don't see all the details of what you're doing but we know that it works so thanks for that, and finally thank you for taking some of your time to explain to us how all of this works and what's important to you in this project.

OK and that's a great goal. And it sounds like that's something that will be achieved. I must say this is a project where most people listening maybe had no idea even existed. But you've done a great job in explaining how this works and what you're trying to do. So I say thank you for that. Also thank you for your contribution to science to making our world a better place. It's appreciated sometimes we don't see all the details of what you're doing but we know that it works so thanks for that, and finally thank you for taking some of your time to explain to us how all of this works and what's important to you in this project.

Thank you. Thank you very much again for having me here and I'm glad you made this podcast and to let more people to know our project and this is what we like the people to know and also this is actually the researchers who are very very keen to make it good

Thank you. Thank you very much again for having me here and I'm glad you made this podcast and to let more people to know our project and this is what we like the people to know and also this is actually the researchers who are very very keen to make it good

And good luck with the rest of the project. You have another few months here and it sounds like everything is on track. So good luck finishing that out.

And good luck with the rest of the project. You have another few months here and it sounds like everything is on track. So good luck finishing that out.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay. And we'll talk soon.

Okay. And we'll talk soon.

Thank you very much Peter.

Thank you very much Peter.

For more information about FutureTPM, visit futuretpm.eu. This podcast has been brought to you by Technikon.

For more information about FutureTPM, visit futuretpm.eu. This podcast has been brought to you by Technikon.

This project has received funding from the European Union's Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement number 779391.

This project has received funding from the European Union's Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement number 779391.