My Confirmation Students Want to Know Where the Devil Comes From? (Who Is the Devil? Part 1 of 2)

Published Oct 17, 2023, 11:00 AM

Welcome back to season five of Enter the Bible, a podcast in which we share "Everything You Wanted to Know about the Bible...but were afraid to ask."

In episode 15 of season 5, our hosts are joined by Jeremy L. Williams, Assistant Professor of New Testament at Brite Divinity School.

Today our theologians will be answering the listener-submitted question, "My confirmation students want to know where the Devil comes from?" This is part 1 of 2 in a series on Who Is the Devil?

Watch the video version on YouTube at https://youtu.be/VxARMy1fal8

Do you have Bible questions you would like answered? Go to our website at https://enterthebible.org/about to get started.

This episode of the Enter the Bible podcast was recorded on August 1, 2023, on Riverside.

 

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Enter the Bible podcast, where you can get answers, or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible but were afraid to ask. I'm Katie Langston,

And I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker. And I have the privilege of introducing our special guest for this podcast. Dr. Jeremy L. Williams is assistant professor of New Testament at Brite Divinity School at Texas Christian University. He's ordained in the Christian Methodist Episcopal Church so we could call him Reverend Doctor. And he has a new book coming out in the fall with Cambridge University Press called Criminalization and Acts of the Apostles: Race, Rhetoric, and the Prosecution of an Early Christian Movement. So you can preorder that now. Jeremy Williams, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us for this Enter the Bible podcast.

Hello. Thank you Kathryn for having me. Good to see you, Katie. I'm excited to to engage this really interesting conversation.

Yeah. Indeed.

Indeed. Glad you're here.

Yeah, really happy to have you. So we have a question from a listener, and it's possible that this question is so large we might make this into a two part answer. This is part one. And then we'll have part two. But let me read the question and I'll just remind our listeners and viewers that if you have a question about the Bible, you are very welcome and invited to go to Enter the Bible. Org and enter the question there. We can't address all questions, but we try to address as many as we can. But here's the question that a listener submitted on that website. He or she said, my confirmation students want to know where does the devil come from? Did God create the devil and why would God do that? So perhaps a pastor, perhaps a lay leader, but has questions from his or her confirmation students. But I think questions that probably a lot of people have likewhere's is the devil the devil come from?

That's right. What's up with that? What's up with the devil? I don't know why.

As a as a Bible scholar, Jeremy, and particularly a New Testament scholar, maybe, and because this is the Enter the Bible podcast, maybe let's talk first about in Scripture what where do we meet the devil and where does the devil come from?

Okay. It's always fun to talk about the devil, I think. I think maybe we shouldn't say this is fun to talk about. Right. But but especially, especially like, as a Bible scholar thinking about where the devil appeared as a character in text and in navigating through thinking of where we meet Satan first or where or what are some of the oldest references? One one often thinks, especially like in our Christian church context, is that that the first place we would meet the devil is in the Garden of Eden, right? But but that's that's actually a mistake because that's later theological interpretations of this event in the garden. It's a serpent there. Just, just a snake, right? That tells the earth creature, the Adam and and the living one Eve that, you know, go ahead and eat from this tree. Um, those seem to be tendencies, tendencies of who we describe as a Satan who appears later in the text, but the oldest place where we meet the devil, and probably one of the oldest texts in Hebrew Bible that we have is Job. And there in Job, when we encounter the Satan and I'm using this to kind of trouble some of our images to think about, you know, just the devil boogeyman with the pitchfork and the horns, but to think about him as, as ancient literary creature that has morphed over time. And and even there, he kind of gets added onto the Job story. You all know the story of Jobe, who loses everything that he has and and then kind of gets a really unflattering response from God at the end. And so the way that a number of scholars think that Job is written is that it has, um, bracketted chapters at the beginning and at the end, and there is introduced an idea of the Satan or the diabolical or the adversary. All of these are kind of ways to think about Satan as not just like somebody's name, but as an adversary, as one who opposes. And and in Job stories, the editors are the people who redacted the story, said that the one who who is opposing is not just opposing God, but actually opposing Job and wanting to take all of his stuff. Now, what's interesting to think about here is where does the Satan or this opposer, this accuser, or one might even say, prosecuting attorney, right? Where does he first show up? And he shows up like when the sons of God, the Elohim, all the little gods, is kind of had the Hebrew has it, show up before the God. And and while they're all meeting, amongst the crowd is the Satan, the adversary, the the accuser, the prosecutor. And he says, but how about you start messing with Job? And so God, God takes the request, takes him up on the request. Okay, Katie.

Well, so that I'm trying and Kathryn, she did her dissertation on Job, so she could also kind of probably help with this, but like, so just remind me though, they're all hanging out. It's not just God and the Satan hanging out in the beginning of Job, but it's like God and all these other gods, and then Job and then Satan.

Well or children of God or sons of God, or whether they're gods or angels, there's some kind of spiritual or heavenly beings. And yeah, the Satan is one of them. He just kind of it's the heavenly council, honestly.

Okay.

Like if you think of a royal courtroom or a royal, yeah, a royal court, right. With all of the kind of attendants to the king, though that seems to be kind of an analogy for that, that heavenly council and Job. But yeah, you're right. And it's worth noting, too, as you said, Jeremy, that Satan, it's actually a Hebrew word and it means to accuse. So I think to talk about the Satan. And it's always the Satan in Job to talk about him as the accuser or the prosecuting attorney. I think that's exactly right, Jeremy. Yeah.

See, I was I already was on shaky ground as a New Testament guy dipping my toes.

No, no, no, that's fine.

I'm glad, I'm glad, glad to be confirmed. Because, because I'm already on shaky ground. We're going to get to it a New Testament eventually.

Okay? Okay.

Well, and to be to be fair, to be fair, the devil or Satan makes a lot more appearances or there's a lot more references I should say to this figure in the New Testament than in the Old Testament. That's true. So so Job.

So he's in Job

A couple of other times in the Old Testament, if I'm remembering right, like in Zechariah, Satan shows up and in first Chronicles accusing again.

Right, right.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

People who have been called anointed ones, the high priest in and the governor, I believe. And then he's accused in there again. So, so so the Satan role is like a is like a prosecutor in, in the heavenly court. And this idea goes through texts in between the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, you know, you see this figure show up in texts like, like Jubilees. Um, also, he takes on a character of having having disciples and descendants and, and Dead Sea Scrolls texts like, um, like the War Scroll and and he takes on he starts taking different names too not just, um, not just the Satan of the adversary also Mastima or idea or, or noting that not just saying, but like the devil or Diablos is the name that gets used frequently in the New Testament. And part of what happens in this period in between the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, and this what's often called Second Temple Judaism, this inner testamental time is, is he. He begins to take on this image of being a part of, of the end of the world. And this figure that'll show up in a especially to attack, prosecute, or persecute God's people, chosen people generally thought of in these texts to be the people of Israel and attacks them through either imperial forces, through other, national enemies. And so so you can imagine the Greeks, the Romans, and going back to the Persians, they start to seem like the army of this, this evil and this, this devil, this Satan. And so in that, so, so in some ways, the devil has in this period has a lot of political implications, representing the invisible forces of empire that are continually oppressing this group of people, whether in Israel Palestine proper or across the diaspora. And so, so these elements are gelling around when the earliest Jesus followers are imagining that the world is coming to an end, the temple has been destroyed, and now God's anointed one has appeared and been executed by the Roman powers that be and raised from the dead.

Yeah, right.

Right. And just to usher in the end of the world. And what's one of the characters that shows up at the end of the world? The devil?

The Satan. Yeah.

Is it? Is it worth? Is it fair to say that these historical tragedies or these historical evils like like the Roman Empire, destroying the temple or executing Jesus or that, or all of the many troubles that the Jews go through in those inner testamental times and in the New Testament times that there's this kind of developing thought of, well, there must be something else besides just history going on here. There must be an evil force, evil being behind that. And Paul talks about spiritual warfare, right? That that there's some, some malevolent being in back of it all. Is that, is that fair to say?

And and it has to be a powerful kind of thing, right? Certainly not more powerful than God, but also indubitably more powerful than humans.

Right.

Which which leans into something that Carla Fredrickson likes to talk about, had opportunity hear her speak a number of times and in Israel-Palestine, she gave this really interesting illustration about how, in the ancient imagination, there was a gradient between humans and gods that any god is greater than any human was a part of the ancient world. And part of that imagination also meant that just because something is a god that you don't worship, it does not mean that it's not powerful. And it does not mean that it cannot have an effect over your life. Your God is more powerful, but a human did not want to take on the devil or spiritual deity in any kind of way, without without proper resources. And I believe that that's kind of what we can find at stake in, in the trials or temptations of Jesus in the wilderness where where we see Jesus really demonstrating supernatural strength both through fasting. But then at this point of weakness, the this enemy, this accuser, this prosecutor comes to raise up various challenges in order to to not just set Jesus' course off like in some kind of personal piety way, as we often think. But in light of what we're talking about, thinking about the end of the world coming, if Jesus is the the Son of God, the Anointed One, then you can really set the whole course of human history off by, by leading Jesus down a different trail. And so part of why I think realizing these end time components of the devil are important is because it helps to see the gravity of what's happening in some of these moments in, in the Gospels. And then as I keep on the roll, we can talk more about the devil's his own kind of kingdom and the army with demons and stuff, and then in Revelation. But but I can I can pause here and I see Katie wants to jump in and so I don't.

Yeah. I've got a couple of questions. I got a couple questions. This is this is so interesting. So let me let me go back. So are you saying Kathryn and Jeremy that that in the, in the Old Testament or in the Hebrew Bible this, like the Satan figure isn't evil? He's just... accusatory?

Well. He's not. I think, I think it depends on which.

How dare you. Okay.

Okay. In Job, I think he's not kind of the the father of lies or anything like that. He's he really is more like a prosecuting attorney, but not someone that you want next door, right? Like he's the head of the CIA. I don't know, he's not. He's not a pleasant character, but he's not the, you know, the father of demons. But by the time you get to, like, First Chronicles 21, where the Satan appears, that's a probably a later text, certainly than Job. He does appear to be evil, right? He's really he's he tempts David into taking a census and which is not a good thing. That's a whole other story. But you know,

How dare he take a census. I'll have to submit that question.

And that passage is really interesting because it's a development from I believe what is it, Second Kings where it doesn't have the devil do that. Right. Oh they add the devil in to help make sense to why it was a bad because because it didn't make sense at first had the census was is a bad thing. But if the devil tells you to do it, then it's probably bad.

Then it's bad. Yeah.

In second, in second Samuel it's not the devil, but in first Chronicles it is. Yeah. So. So by that time, yeah, Satan appears to be more of a tempter, right? Not just an accuser, but also a tempter, which I think is what we see then in the New Testament stories of Jesus. I really like your your point there, Jeremy, about that the temptation in the wilderness, as it's depicted in the Gospels is not just a personal piety kind of thing. It really has cosmic significance, right? Like if Jesus if Satan is able to change the course of Jesus' life, then it's not just Jesus' personal piety, but the whole salvation history, right?

Right. God is thwarted. Yeah. Huh? Okay. So we have like sort of an unpleasant dude that you don't want being your next door neighbor because he probably works for the CIA to then he gets more evil and then he is tempting Jesus and then he has armies? Jeremy?

Yes, yes.

So how does that happen?

And then by the time you get to Revelation, right? Yeah, he becomes a whole dragon like character that.

Yeah.

that is able to deceive the entire world and ultimately gets thrown into a lake of fire, which is different than hell. Just to note that in Revelation in the 20th and 21st chapter, what you find is that that hell is thrown into the lake of fire because hell or Hades is really just the abode of the dead. It's not a place of torment or torture, it's just where the dead go. And so and so as we have these conversations, some of the reasons why I think it's important for us to go back and start to peel these pieces or peel these layers, is what they help us to start to see, is that some of our contemporary understandings and images of the devil, Satan, are, are developed way after biblical text. And and e the one I'm just now presenting is the idea that, like, the devil lives in hell, like that's not a biblical idea. There's there's like, no, there's no support for that idea biblically. So. So what do you do with that? Right. We realize that these are part of later inherited traditions. So so unpacking what we find in the text can in some ways help us to, to examine, um, what do we want to do with the image of, of Satan and, and what use and what good, can there be good with this image or with this character? And I think the last one. We can talk about that maybe in the second part, but I think I think the devil has. I think you can use the I think the devil can be can be useful. Not all the time, but yeah. Want to leave that there? But we can.

Cliffhanger

Before we go there.

Yeah, yeah. No, let's. Yeah, let's talk about that in part two. I did have a question. It goes back to the question that our listeners submitted. You know, did God create the devil and if so, why? Maybe that should wait till part two as well. But what it reminds me of is this very common story, or at least that I heard growing up, right? That the devil was once an angel, you know, the angel of light that rebels against God and is cast down. So I know some of the texts that, you know, that have been used to talk about that, like Isaiah 14:12 or Ezekiel 20:8, both of which refer like Isaiah 14 is talking about the king of Babylon, but they refer to him as the Daystar. Right. And Ezekiel 28 is talking about the king of Tyre. But early church fathers interpreted that as referring to Satan as well, that Satan rebels against God and is is thrown out of heaven. So where like, how does that come about? Do you know, Jeremy or can you? Can you shed some light on that story?

Well, as you mentioned, the the early Church fathers' interpretations of those passages, especially like the Isaiah 14, but that's a tricky passage to, to use to only apply to Satan that term Daystar or Morningstar also. early church leaders used a similar image, the one from Song of Solomon, to talk about how how Jesus was the was the Daystar or the Bright and Morning star. And so and so images are tricky because they can they can be used and in multiple ways. But in the, in the New Testament there's passages in like Luke, after the disciples come back from having received power to cast out demons, and they talk and they report, and then Jesus says, well, I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning. And if I was in the audience, I'd be like, what does that mean?

Like, yeah, like, what exactly does that mean?

And the Revelation 12 passage that was speaking of where you have the dragon image and then you have Satan literally cast out of heaven. And then to wreak havoc on earth is what happens to the next part of that passage. And so, some have have interpreted that Revelation 12 passage to be a, okay to be a retelling of the story of creation, or a version thereof, where you have especially taken images from Greek mythology, like the story of Python and Leto, and this idea that you have this woman getting ready to give birth and you have a serpentine dragon chasing her, and there's a war in heaven. And then after this war in heaven, this enemy is thrown down and really is what creates all of the true chaos that happens on Earth. And in Revelation, articularly, the enemy's work is to prosecute, persecute, chase the people of God who are people who refuse to worship the idols of the Empire or participate in the imperial cult because they are, and from my reading, and we can talk about this a bit too, they are people who subscribe to Jewish practices, but simultaneously believe that Jesus is the Messiah who's been raised, and so they find themselves marginalized in multiple ways. And so in that way, the enemy becomes or this, this really mythical, mythical type enemy becomes a way for them to imagine perseverance against the local tyranny that they're experiencing, to recognize that ultimately it will be vanquished whatever enemy they face, even if it has dragon like proportions, world destroying. I mean, this dragon like, drinks up all the water on the earth kind of deal. And so this shows what they're up against, or it's a way to imagine the gravity of their experiences. And ultimately, the lesson is that the Satan, the enemy is no match for their God. Maybe. Maybe I already jumped into what I want to say in part two.

I think I mean, I think that's yeah, that's really helpful. Um, I have one other question. And then I think we could go to part two, but so there are these like, um, demons in, in the gospels. And Jesus is always, you know, cleansing and casting out the demons and that sort of thing. And would they be understood to be like the same type of being or force or entity as Satan at that point in history, or like, are they Satan's minions at that point in history, or are they just additional, you know, bad forces and entities and energies or whatever powers, principalities, I don't even know, like. Or is it...

This is a really a good question. Yeah, it's a really good question. And the first thing I would say is it's really it's a really good question because there are different terms used to, to denote different types of, I guess we can say supernatural as in beyond natural figures. And, and I guess one thing from my train, I'm always suspicious of every word that I say because because each of these words can get could be a landmine. Because in the ancient world it was all supernatural, because they had a different way of understanding how nature worked. Right? But but to us, like these figures, they were like demons. Demons. They were unclean spirits. Then you have like in Acts 16, the enslaved girl with the Pythian spirit. And intentionally it's talking about like the spirit of Apollo's python that would appear from the Delphic shrine. So, so you have these different terms used to talk about different evil, um, or oppositional, or oppositional spiritual forces. Right. And so to answer your question directly, though, in talking about demons, there's a story in the Gospel of Matthew that comes to mind where Jesus casts a demon out and they don't go through details to explain how it is expelled or how he expels the demon. But Jesus ' opponents that Matthew likes to portray as the Pharisees, they question the legitimacy of Jesus' authority of casting out this, this demon. And they and and they say he does it by the power of another force, Beelzebub, which it has connections to Ba'al. And and so it's this idea that there's a evil ringleader, if you will, and then Jesus shares that, that, you know, even the kingdom of Satan has an order. And therefore he goes on to say that a kingdom divided against itself can't stand. He said, it's not so. I can't cast out a demon by the power of demon or Satan, he said. But instead I do it by the power of the spirit. And so in that instance, we can see that in Matthew's Jesus' mind, there's a hierarchy. There's a kingdom of demonic forces of which the Satan is the top. And then in the explanation that Matthew has Jesus to give this, it becomes quickly like this end time scenario again, that like the the evil one of the devil has a group of bad people and God has a group of good people. And ultimately, what you find at the end of the day is you have to be able to recognize who is who. And if you can't recognize who is operating by the power of demons, ultimately by the Satan. But you think that the people who are casting out those demons and who are actually operating by the power of the spirit, are those who are demonic. If you can't tell that simple difference, then Jesus says, you blaspheme the spirit, a sin for which you can't be forgiven in this world or the world to come and so, so the question is really powerful because this idea of being able to discern demonic activity versus holy spiritual activity, it was important. And

It is, it is important,

not just to people I think people who are in theological right, it is important, right, right, to be able to correctly identify. Yeah.

Huh.

Even though we live in a post-truth time.

Exactly right.

That's true. Yeah.

That's true, that's true.

Wow.

Hey, I think we we probably should wrap up right now. We're going to have part two where we're going to continue exploring this question of where does the devil come from? And how did you put it before, Jeremy? The usefulness of.

Usefulness.

the devil. All right. So I'm going to encourage our listeners to go on and move over to part two of our interview with Dr. Jeremy Williams. But for now, thank you for listening to this episode, and we look forward to hearing from you for your own questions. And we look forward to continuing this topic with Jeremy Williams. So thanks for joining us. And go to Enter the Bible. Org for other podcasts and videos and entries, essays about various biblical topics and biblical books. So thanks for joining us.