Was Martin Luther a Heretic by Saying God Died on the Cross?

Published Mar 27, 2024, 1:57 AM

Welcome to season six of Enter the Bible, a podcast in which we share "Everything You Wanted to Know about the Bible...but were afraid to ask."

Co-hosts Katie Langston and Kathryn Schifferdecker are joined by Mark Tranvik. Tranvik is a Professor of Reformation History and Theology at Luther Seminary. He is also an ordained pastor in the ELCA. His area of specialty is the Lutheran Reformation.

Today our theologians will be answering the listener-submitted question, "Martin Luther Seems to be Saying that God, in Jesus, Died on the Cross. But Isn't That Heresy?"

Do you have Bible questions you would like answered? Go to our website at https://enterthebible.org/about to get started.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/tNep0kDpS10

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Hello and welcome to another episode of the Enter the Bible podcast, where you can get answers, or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible...b ut were afraid to ask. I'm Katie Langston.

I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker. And today we have as our special guest, professor Mark Tranvik. So Mark is one of our colleagues at Luther Seminary. He is the professor, a professor of Reformation history and theology. Uh, and he is, uh, has written quite a bit on the Reformation and particularly Martin Luther, uh, his latest work, uh, called Martin Luther and the Called Life, which is a book published by Fortress Press. And it's a book on Luther's understanding of vocation. So we, uh, recommend that you check that out. So welcome, Mark. Thanks for thanks for joining us today.

Thanks. Happy to be here.

All right. So our question today comes from a listener. And we'll just remind you that on enterthebible.org you can uh you can submit your own questions. We cannot uh, we don't have the ability to answer all the questions that come in, but we try to do as many as we can. This one is, uh, particularly focused on, uh, Martin Luther, uh, which is why we invited Mark to, uh, to, to answer it for us, uh, or at least take a stab at it. So the question is this Martin Luther seems to be saying that God in Jesus died on the cross, but isn't that heresy? So, uh, there's, uh. There is a heresy called patripassianism , uh, which I believe is the heresy that that this, this listener is referring to. So maybe, uh, Mark, if you could just begin by defining that, uh, heresy and why it's heresy. That would be great.

Yeah, we're we're getting into the getting into some deep, deep, but very important and interesting stuff in, in Luther's thinking about God and Christ and ultimately about, um, how that all interacts with our lives as well, because, um, I always tell my students, um, we don't preach theology, but theology preaches. In other words, um, this stuff has definite implications for how we think about our faith and our in our daily life. And I'll try to make the case for that as well. So, yeah. Catherine. Um, patripassianism is a is is indeed a heresy. And it's a heresy that suggests that the with regard to the Trinity, father, son and holy Spirit Patri of course, refers to father. It suggests that the father suffers or that the father dies. Um. And Luther did not affirm that he thought that was going too far, although you might say he skirts the edges of that. So what did Luther affirm? Um, he did teach that God did die, that on the cross God died. Or even more provocatively, he said things like this Mary suckled God with her breasts. She bathes God, she rocks him. And Pilate and Herod crucified and killed God. That's a direct quote from one of Luther's sermons. And so, um, he has a lot at stake, not so much that the father died, but but that and we'll try to make this distinction clear. But that God, we can say, we can say because of what happened to Jesus, we can say with confidence that God died. And we can also talk about why that's important.

Yeah, that's that's helpful. So let's dive into that. So, um, God in Jesus dies on the cross. Why is that important? Because there's other heresies right on the other side that would say, uh, that that it just appears that Jesus does and doesn't really die. Right?

Yeah. Well, so so yeah, let me try to explain it. They're basically two streams of thought here, and I hope this will be clear. Um, so the early church wanted to affirm in its, in its creeds that Jesus is both human and divine. Okay. And that's a little hard for people to understand, but it's a really important teaching. Um, some theologians wanted to say that Jesus, humanity and divinity were kind of slapped together like two boards. Okay? I mean, they were both part of who Jesus is, but they didn't really affect one another. And so, for example, when Jesus wept or when Jesus is hungry or Jesus cried, that was his humanity acting. And then when Jesus walks on water or performs other miracles, that's his divinity acting or the divine side. And the two don't really sort of intersect with one another. Um, Luther inherited some people teaching that, and he got really upset because he said, if only the humanity died and not the divinity, that puts my salvation in jeopardy, because we want to say that God is the one who saves us. And if only the humanity or the human side of Jesus dies, that creates at least a gap between the human and divine and suggests that, um, maybe we're responsible for our salvation and it's not God's act in Jesus on the cross. And so Luther got really upset with folks who who, um, made that move to kind of keep Jesus, sort of almost like two human beings slapped together, acting alternatively, he really wanted to keep the human and divine communicating with one another. That makes some sense?

Yes. And so he did. He did. Is that what the communicatio idiomatum is? Am I saying the right Latin term?

Yes. Of course. Yes.

I remember I remember my seminary training. Yeah. That's when the that's when the two natures. Right. The divine and the and the human. When the two natures communicate with one another. That's that's that. Yeah. That that that's that notion. Right?

Right, right. And so and that's that whole whole idea. Right. That the two natures aren't just slapped together, but I use my hands. Right. They, they do communicate with one another. All right. So so they're sharing. They're sharing with one another. It's not like the divine becomes human or the human becomes divine. We don't want to go there either. The early church was clear against that. But we. But Luther really wanted to stress their unity and their communication because he thought that was really comforting for people of faith. And so he would, you know, to sort of push the envelope a little bit. Luther liked to do that. But, I mean, in his preaching, something was really at stake. He says things like, right, "Herod and Pilate crucified God." You know God's God's wrapped up in this in a very, very deep way, huh?

So Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, right?

Yeah. Fully human and fully divine and and and and we can't lose sight of the, we can't lose sight of how the two sides are communicating with one another.

So if Luther says, uh, as, as you said in this sermon and other places that God died on the cross, and that's important because, as you said, um, it requires God to to make that sacrifice to, to atone for our sins, to save us from our sins, because a merely, uh, human right, a mere human being couldn't couldn't do that. Right,

Right. Right, right.

So then what's the what's the line not to cross? You say Luther's pushing the the edges there. So what would what would? Back to our listeners question. Right. That, uh, if God and Jesus died on the cross, what are we not saying with that or what? What is too much to say? No. I see if you understand that question.

Yeah. I mean, that's a great question in in a sense. Luther is in a sense saying to, I mean, we're moving to the course of a very, very deep mystery here. We're talking about Good Friday, Holy Saturday and Easter Sunday. And we're saying that, I mean, and Luther doesn't reflect a lot on this, but we're saying that on Holy Saturday, when God I mean, there's a sense in which everything's became Godless. Now, you got to be careful. You got to be careful. Right? Right. Um, um, Luther would say, you know, technically, technically, divinity doesn't die. All right. But so therefore, the notion that the father died, Luther does not say that, but because the two natures are so united, we should feel free in affirming that God dies on the cross. And for him. And so and so we we we do want to say that while avoiding the the idea that the father died or the divinity technically dies, but Luther really wants to kind of get close. And he troubled a lot of people by some of his statements. I think he remained orthodox but on the edge of Orthodoxy, as Luther sometimes was. Right. Um, in order to make the point and the other point here, why, I kind of get excited about this and, um, um, is that it shows to that that that God is vulnerable. Huh? That God, that God know that God knows what it's like to be lonely, to be forsaken, to be lost, to be hungry, to just, you know, be at his wits end, to be tempted. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? You know the prayer and the Garden of Gethsemane. Let this cup pass. God. God now is aware of all of the things that human beings go through as well. And so there's a vulnerability to God that gets expressed in this too. Um, and then also, I know I'm talking a little too much. Sorry.

No, no, no you're not.

No, this is good.

But the other thing is too, if that is in fact, if God died in the cross, then you know, there's also further reflection here in that we killed God. Y ou know, when Jesus was crucified. Pilate. Right. He's a stand in for us because Jesus dies, the greatest sinner in the world. Luther said, right. Because he's taking upon himself all our sin and our sin, then kills kills God. And that's, you know, if just the man Jesus died. Don't get me wrong, that's not a good thing either. Crucifixions are never good. They're horrible. But human beings in, in and this is the theology of the cross, right? Human beings are so we're so distorted in our view of who God is that we want to get rid of God because God messes with our plans. Huh? And then God says, okay, you kill me. I'm coming back with a resurrection. All right. Yeah. You put me on a cross. I'm coming back with an empty tomb. And so it also underlines, I think, God's great love and forgiveness. And that, of course, was the ultimate goal here for Luther is that is that if if God's bound up in what happens in the crucifixion and resurrection, then God really exhibits a love that extends far beyond anything we can fathom or understand. And that's good news, right? Because it's God's love for the unlovable folks like you and me. Anyway. My mouth runneth over.

No, that's that's lovely. And it occurs to me like, you know, this is where the Doctrine of the Trinity is important, because precisely, we're saying God in Jesus died on the cross, but that doesn't mean that God the Father died because they are distinct persons.

Yeah, yeah.

Yet one. Yet one God. So to say that God, that God the Father died on the cross because Jesus died would be almost like a form of modalism, right? Where, like God is in one aspect, showing up as Jesus in this moment. Right? So that the affirmation of Jesus as, um, fully human and fully divine and that, you know, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are fully distinct, yet fully one. Like those are important things to hold on to in order to avoid the patri heresy. Yeah.

That's patripassianism . Yeah.

Patripassianism.

No, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right. Um, um, because because. Right, it it leads to a as you said, it very, very well leads to a confusion in the Trinity and leads to right this idea of modalism.

So I just want to put in order that, um, if you don't know what modalism is and you're not sure about the Trinity at this, I just want to echo what you already said. We're we're into a great mystery here. Right? Like we're not going to explain, uh, the whole Doctrine of the Trinity because it is a mystery. But but still one that is a profound, uh, uh, statement or belief, uh, of the, of the Christian church, right. That that we have Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three and one, uh, one God but but three persons. Which is why when Jesus dies on the cross, yes, we can say with Luther, God died on the cross, but not all of God, right or not, that God wasn't absent from the world in those in that time. God wasn't absent from the world in that time.

I think that's a really good insight. In other words, I think what we're saying there, right, is that even in the midst of God dying on the cross, God was still working through that to, to, to, to achieve God's purposes in that. So not not even God was defeated in the midst of that. Yeah. It's really to the edge about, you know, we're getting close here, right? But we're peering over the edge, I guess we could say. But no, it's an important point. Right. Exactly.

I want to go back to something you said, um, earlier, Mark. And because I think it's an important point. You talk about God's vulnerability, right?

Yeah.

And I think that makes some Christians uncomfortable. Right? I was I was before we started recording, I was looking online just on patripassianism. And there was this one, uh, blog about it that talked about, um, well, of course, God can't suffer, right? God can't. Uh uh, God wouldn't be God. If God suffers and I'm like, I don't I don't think that's right. Right.

Like, at least it's not biblical because He. Yeah, yeah. He has He's suffering all over the place in the Old Testament.

Yeah, I mean, even before the cross, we can talk about God's suffering. We have a dearly departed, uh, colleague of ours, Terry Fretheim, who taught Old Testament at Luther Seminary for decades, wrote a really seminal book called The Suffering of God. He was an Old Testament professor, so traced, uh, traced the the idea of God suffering through various Old Testament texts. And I think I think we yeah. To to think about God as, um, the unmoved mover. Right. Or the, the not not suffering, not feeling I think is is not biblical. Right. That's the more kind of Greek notion of God or some or platonic notion of God or something that, you know, if we read Scripture, both Old and New Testament, we see that God makes God's self vulnerable and is affected by, um, Israel in the in the first case and then, uh, the church and, and, and other folks that, that God does grieve and God gets angry, of course. And God loves and God feels joy. Um, not, you know, not in a way that incapacitates God, but but, uh, but that God is in a real relationship with, uh, with the world, with creation, and particularly with human beings.

Katie, you were going to say something too, about that?

Yeah, I was gonna I was just going to say, you know, so this is going back, just a little bit. But on the, you know, on the question of is God still present like on Holy Saturday, I hadn't I never thought of that question before. It's a really interesting one. Um, but again, the Scripture tells us, doesn't it, that the Holy Spirit is God is is the Holy Spirit raises Jesus from the dead. And so I think that shows that the activity of God remains, and that God is still working and that God is, uh, that there is so much life right in the abundance of life in God that the Holy Spirit will, will, will raise Jesus. Uh, again. And that's kind of why it's important that, like, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all divine.

That's really good. I hadn't really thought about it that way. But, you know, even in the midst of God being dead, which, you know. Right, it's hard to wrap your mind around that. But, but but there's a reason to talk that way. But even in the but in other words, even in the midst of death, there's a sense in which God is working, which boggles the mind because dead seems like it's dead, but not for God. I mean, it's kind of cool to think it's kind of cool to think, oh, okay. Wow. Even death doesn't mean what we think it means for God, right? And the spirit, you're right. Is the proof of that in some ways. Right? The work of the spirit. Yeah. You know.

What is it in somewhere in one of the Corinthian letters, Jesus God says, yes. Right. Or or Jesus is God's yes to.

Yeah!

To the world. I should know what it is.

But no, no, no. Yeah it is, it is in the Corinthian letters. Yeah yeah yeah I can't, I can't if I quoted it, if I quoted chapter verse I'd be wrong.

Yeah, yeah yeah. But I see that in the resurrection. Like God, God the Father, God the spirit raises Jesus from the dead. Uh, as a as a as a yes to God's will for the world and, and and to Jesus witness, uh, and ministry in the world. Right. That death cannot contain God.

Right, and I want to make clear it's a real death. It's not just the sort of pretend death or a ghostly sort of disappearance of some kind. No. Jesus died. God died. And and death doesn't stop God.

And so that means in the.

Second Corinthians one, by the way, one for no matter how many promises God has made they are yes, in Christ, and so through him the Amen is spoken by us to the glory of God. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his spirits in our heart. Put His Spirit in our hearts as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come.

Oh, I like that. Yeah, that's nice. That is good. Yeah. Thanks, Katie. Yep. So. Yeah. So it at least in part what all this means is that when we ourselves are experiencing, illness, persecution, uh, abandonment. Feeling, feeling abandoned. Um, God is even in the midst of that, right? God knows that intimately, right? Not just as an intellectual exercise, but knows that intimately. Through experience and and walks, walks with us through that, even even to the point of death and beyond.

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe, maybe we can even say, especially in those moments.

Yeah. True. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Good.

Well, thank you so much. Uh, what an interesting question. It was a little more theological than biblical, but of course, all our theology, uh, is also, um, biblically based and biblically informed. So that was that was awesome. And and thanks, Mark, for, um, you know, for being here with us to sort of reflect on these deep and important yet mysterious things. Um, thank you to our listener who asked such an interesting and thought provoking question. And to all of you who are listening or watching on YouTube. Be sure to subscribe if you haven't. And uh, um, check out enterthebible.org for more of our resources of podcasts, videos, articles, commentaries, courses on every book of the Bible, uh, anything you could need to know. We'll be there at Enter the Bible. Uh, and most of all, if you enjoyed this, uh, podcast, be sure to share it with a friend. We'll see you next time.