00:03
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Welcome to the Enter the Bible podcast where you can get answers or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible. But we're afraid to ask. I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker,
Welcome to the Enter the Bible podcast where you can get answers or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible. But we're afraid to ask. I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker,
And I'm Katie Langston, and today on the podcast we are doing another Lightning round episode, which is when we take several questions that have been submitted from our users and listeners and answer them in sort of somewhat more rapid fire succession. I mean, they're, you know, we we give time to the questions that they need.
And I'm Katie Langston, and today on the podcast we are doing another Lightning round episode, which is when we take several questions that have been submitted from our users and listeners and answer them in sort of somewhat more rapid fire succession. I mean, they're, you know, we we give time to the questions that they need.
00:37
Kathryn Schifferdecker
We do we like to talk. So, you know, we do.
We do we like to talk. So, you know, we do.
So it's hard to yeah.
So it's hard to yeah.
00:42
Kathryn Schifferdecker
To give short answers.
To give short answers.
But actually we're not we're not the best at that. But anyway, but if you would like to submit a question, dear listener, please go to the Enter the Bible website, EntertheBible.org . And there's a little button up there that says Got questions and you can click on that and submit your own question. And we do all that we can do. Answer them here on the podcast. Okay. All right. So we'll dive in. Yep. Catherine Yes. The question for you is.
But actually we're not we're not the best at that. But anyway, but if you would like to submit a question, dear listener, please go to the Enter the Bible website, EntertheBible.org . And there's a little button up there that says Got questions and you can click on that and submit your own question. And we do all that we can do. Answer them here on the podcast. Okay. All right. So we'll dive in. Yep. Catherine Yes. The question for you is.
01:11
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Yes, drumroll.
Yes, drumroll.
I've heard there will be two who return prior to Christ's return. One is Elijah. Who is the second one?
I've heard there will be two who return prior to Christ's return. One is Elijah. Who is the second one?
01:23
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Well. That is a good question and I'm going to answer it in with my Old Testament hat on, because I think that's what this question is getting at. But if it listener if we don't if we're not getting it, the question you're asking, then please resubmit your question. But there is a Jewish long standing Jewish tradition that comes up at that, basically the end of the Old Testament period. And we can see reflections of it, for instance, in the Prophet Malachi that says that before the Messiah comes the Christos in in excuse me, in Greek Messiah. Is Christos right? The Anointed one? Yep.
Well. That is a good question and I'm going to answer it in with my Old Testament hat on, because I think that's what this question is getting at. But if it listener if we don't if we're not getting it, the question you're asking, then please resubmit your question. But there is a Jewish long standing Jewish tradition that comes up at that, basically the end of the Old Testament period. And we can see reflections of it, for instance, in the Prophet Malachi that says that before the Messiah comes the Christos in in excuse me, in Greek Messiah. Is Christos right? The Anointed one? Yep.
It's not Jesus's last name.
It's not Jesus's last name.
02:13
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Not Jesus's last name. It's Jesus title, basically. Jesus the Messiah. Yeah, the anointed one. Yeah. So there's this long standing Jewish tradition that before the Christ comes, before the Messiah comes, Elijah will return and the prophet. Okay, So let me explain just quickly. So, Elijah, I think pretty self-explanatory, right? So Elijah is this Old Testament prophet in first kings who primarily in first kings, who resists the the bad King Ahab, he's Elijah famously defeats the prophets of Baal and then is marked for death by Jezebel. And so he he runs away into the wilderness and just asks to be killed. It's kind of pastoral burnout, prophetic burnout. Elijah And then he is given a vision or hears the still small voice or the sound of suicide. So lots of stories about Elijah in, in, in first and second Kings. Um, and also famously, Elijah does not die. He is taken up into heaven in a fiery chariot. Yeah, there's.
Not Jesus's last name. It's Jesus title, basically. Jesus the Messiah. Yeah, the anointed one. Yeah. So there's this long standing Jewish tradition that before the Christ comes, before the Messiah comes, Elijah will return and the prophet. Okay, So let me explain just quickly. So, Elijah, I think pretty self-explanatory, right? So Elijah is this Old Testament prophet in first kings who primarily in first kings, who resists the the bad King Ahab, he's Elijah famously defeats the prophets of Baal and then is marked for death by Jezebel. And so he he runs away into the wilderness and just asks to be killed. It's kind of pastoral burnout, prophetic burnout. Elijah And then he is given a vision or hears the still small voice or the sound of suicide. So lots of stories about Elijah in, in, in first and second Kings. Um, and also famously, Elijah does not die. He is taken up into heaven in a fiery chariot. Yeah, there's.
A chariot of fire.
A chariot of fire.
03:28
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Exactly. Yes. And Elisha, his successor, watches this happen. Okay. Okay. So then Jewish tradition said, well, Elijah didn't die. He's, you know, taken up bodily alive into heaven. And so he will return. Okay. Before the the Messianic age, before the Messiah, he'll be like the precursor, the prophet.
Exactly. Yes. And Elisha, his successor, watches this happen. Okay. Okay. So then Jewish tradition said, well, Elijah didn't die. He's, you know, taken up bodily alive into heaven. And so he will return. Okay. Before the the Messianic age, before the Messiah, he'll be like the precursor, the prophet.
So he was just hanging out there? Yeah. He's just like, Here I am. There he is in heaven with.
So he was just hanging out there? Yeah. He's just like, Here I am. There he is in heaven with.
03:54
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Enoch, who's also taken alive.
Enoch, who's also taken alive.
Who's also up there.
Who's also up there.
03:57
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Right.
Right.
All right. Yes. How do you get how do you get to be one of those guys?
All right. Yes. How do you get how do you get to be one of those guys?
04:02
Kathryn Schifferdecker
I don't know, kill 400 prophets of Baal.
I don't know, kill 400 prophets of Baal.
Oh, okay. Well.
Oh, okay. Well.
04:06
Kathryn Schifferdecker
All right. Probably not a good idea.
All right. Probably not a good idea.
I think we should not endorse violence. Probably not.
I think we should not endorse violence. Probably not.
04:15
Kathryn Schifferdecker
All right. We can strike that from. I don't know. You become a prophet who. Yeah. Does really.
All right. We can strike that from. I don't know. You become a prophet who. Yeah. Does really.
Cool things.
Cool things.
04:22
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Does really cool things. Yeah.
Does really cool things. Yeah.
04:24
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Yes. Do not seek out prophets of Baal, please. Um, so that's Elijah. So he'll come back before the Messiah comes. And pretty sure I believe it is Malachi who talks about. I will send Elijah before the great and.
Yes. Do not seek out prophets of Baal, please. Um, so that's Elijah. So he'll come back before the Messiah comes. And pretty sure I believe it is Malachi who talks about. I will send Elijah before the great and.
Terrible that is.
Terrible that is.
04:39
Kathryn Schifferdecker
There. Yeah.
There. Yeah.
Yeah. They'll turn the hearts of the children to them. Yeah. Parents or whatever. Yeah. Mormons love that verse.
Yeah. They'll turn the hearts of the children to them. Yeah. Parents or whatever. Yeah. Mormons love that verse.
04:45
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The second one is just the prophet, so. And this. This is a little more obscure. So there's this passage in Deuteronomy 18 and we'll I'm going to come back to this actually for a third question. Okay. For this lightning round, but or not so lightning round. Um, so in Deuteronomy 18, God is speaking or Moses is actually speaking and he's, he's, you know, it's kind of his final sermon, which is really long in Deuteronomy before he's, before he dies and he says, um, the Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me, from among your own people. You shall heed such a prophet. I will read. And then a few verses later in verse 18, I will raise for them a prophet like you from among their own people. I will put my words in the mouth of the Prophet who shall speak to them. Everything that I command so likely in the original context. This just means God will periodically raise up prophets like Moses, like a like. Like Nathan. Like Isaiah. Jeremiah. Right. But it came to be understood in Jewish tradition as one singular prophet that God would raise up like Moses at the end of days to herald the the coming of the Messiah of the Christ. So the interesting thing is we see that Jewish tradition in the New Testament a few different places, but one is in particular in in John chapter one, we're talking about John the Baptist here. Um, so John, the it says in John 1:19 the Jews sent priests and from. Jerusalem to ask John the Baptist, Who are you? He confessed and did not deny it, but confessed. I am not the Messiah, Right? Not the Messiah. And they asked him, What then are you, Elijah? Interesting question. He said, I am not. Then they ask, Are you the prophet? Oh, he answered, No. Then they said to him, Who are you? Let us have an answer. You know, if you're not, why are. Why are you baptizing? If you're neither the Messiah nor Elijah, nor the prophet? So this shows this Jewish tradition, right? In the Messianic age, it's. It's first, Elijah and the Prophet like Moses and then the Messiah. The interesting thing, of course. Then on the Mount of Transfiguration, who do you get?
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The second one is just the prophet, so. And this. This is a little more obscure. So there's this passage in Deuteronomy 18 and we'll I'm going to come back to this actually for a third question. Okay. For this lightning round, but or not so lightning round. Um, so in Deuteronomy 18, God is speaking or Moses is actually speaking and he's, he's, you know, it's kind of his final sermon, which is really long in Deuteronomy before he's, before he dies and he says, um, the Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me, from among your own people. You shall heed such a prophet. I will read. And then a few verses later in verse 18, I will raise for them a prophet like you from among their own people. I will put my words in the mouth of the Prophet who shall speak to them. Everything that I command so likely in the original context. This just means God will periodically raise up prophets like Moses, like a like. Like Nathan. Like Isaiah. Jeremiah. Right. But it came to be understood in Jewish tradition as one singular prophet that God would raise up like Moses at the end of days to herald the the coming of the Messiah of the Christ. So the interesting thing is we see that Jewish tradition in the New Testament a few different places, but one is in particular in in John chapter one, we're talking about John the Baptist here. Um, so John, the it says in John 1:19 the Jews sent priests and from. Jerusalem to ask John the Baptist, Who are you? He confessed and did not deny it, but confessed. I am not the Messiah, Right? Not the Messiah. And they asked him, What then are you, Elijah? Interesting question. He said, I am not. Then they ask, Are you the prophet? Oh, he answered, No. Then they said to him, Who are you? Let us have an answer. You know, if you're not, why are. Why are you baptizing? If you're neither the Messiah nor Elijah, nor the prophet? So this shows this Jewish tradition, right? In the Messianic age, it's. It's first, Elijah and the Prophet like Moses and then the Messiah. The interesting thing, of course. Then on the Mount of Transfiguration, who do you get?
Elijah and Moses.
Elijah and Moses.
07:11
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Elijah and Moses.
Elijah and Moses.
07:13
Kathryn Schifferdecker
And Jesus. So again, it it fulfills that Jewish tradition that. That Elijah and the Prophet will come with or before the Messiah. Reaching back to the, you know, the book of Deuteronomy, to the Book of Malachi, to the Book of First Kings. And then we see it in the New Testament as well. And of course, even today at Passover, meals, perhaps, you know, this tradition, the there's a place set for Elijah, an empty spot, an empty seat with a place setting for Elijah because again, Elijah is.
And Jesus. So again, it it fulfills that Jewish tradition that. That Elijah and the Prophet will come with or before the Messiah. Reaching back to the, you know, the book of Deuteronomy, to the Book of Malachi, to the Book of First Kings. And then we see it in the New Testament as well. And of course, even today at Passover, meals, perhaps, you know, this tradition, the there's a place set for Elijah, an empty spot, an empty seat with a place setting for Elijah because again, Elijah is.
Promised to come.
Promised to come.
07:53
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Promise to come before the Messiah.
Promise to come before the Messiah.
So but what I sense in this question is I think it may be like a pre millennialist , which is a fancy word for, you know, they have maybe a very developed sense, like sort of like the left behind kind of sense of what the end of the world will be. And what I think this person is asking is there will be two who return prior to Christ's return. So I think they're conflating, yes. These things because I think listener, what we would say is that it already happened and that happened at the Mount of Transfiguration and it's not going to happen again. Right? Like Christ will return. But the two who were to return returned when he came the first time. And we're not we don't have an expectation for that to happen again. Right.
So but what I sense in this question is I think it may be like a pre millennialist , which is a fancy word for, you know, they have maybe a very developed sense, like sort of like the left behind kind of sense of what the end of the world will be. And what I think this person is asking is there will be two who return prior to Christ's return. So I think they're conflating, yes. These things because I think listener, what we would say is that it already happened and that happened at the Mount of Transfiguration and it's not going to happen again. Right? Like Christ will return. But the two who were to return returned when he came the first time. And we're not we don't have an expectation for that to happen again. Right.
08:39
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Right. And in fact, that's.
Right. And in fact, that's.
How they announced. That's how they knew that Jesus was the Messiah. Because because they came.
How they announced. That's how they knew that Jesus was the Messiah. Because because they came.
08:46
Kathryn Schifferdecker
And.
And.
And Elijah and Moses were on the Mt. of Transfiguration.
And Elijah and Moses were on the Mt. of Transfiguration.
08:49
Kathryn Schifferdecker
We should just mention also that John the Baptist himself is often is a few times in the Gospels referred to as Elijah, even though he denies that in John in the Synoptic Gospels, it says Elijah has already come, Jesus says. And that seems and it's John the Baptist. So interesting. Yeah.
We should just mention also that John the Baptist himself is often is a few times in the Gospels referred to as Elijah, even though he denies that in John in the Synoptic Gospels, it says Elijah has already come, Jesus says. And that seems and it's John the Baptist. So interesting. Yeah.
And is Jesus sometimes thought of as the one like Moses himself? Is Jesus himself thought of that or not? Not really.
And is Jesus sometimes thought of as the one like Moses himself? Is Jesus himself thought of that or not? Not really.
09:16
Kathryn Schifferdecker
There's certainly some echoes in Jesus ministry of Moses. But. But no, I think, you know, Jesus is the Christos Messiah.
There's certainly some echoes in Jesus ministry of Moses. But. But no, I think, you know, Jesus is the Christos Messiah.
Jesus is the Messiah, is not the the one like Moses. And we would understand the one like Moses to be literally Moses. Right on the Mount of Transfiguration.
Jesus is the Messiah, is not the the one like Moses. And we would understand the one like Moses to be literally Moses. Right on the Mount of Transfiguration.
09:32
Kathryn Schifferdecker
On the Mount of Transfiguration. Yeah. Yeah. So.
On the Mount of Transfiguration. Yeah. Yeah. So.
And all the other prophets, they're right. Like Isaiah, Elijah, Jeremiah. Those guys.
And all the other prophets, they're right. Like Isaiah, Elijah, Jeremiah. Those guys.
09:40
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Yes. Right. So like. Like, like many scriptural passages, it can mean more than one thing at the same time. So Deuteronomy 18 and Malachi Right. But yeah, I think, I think your, your point is really the most important thing that we believe as Christians this has already happened, right? That that, that Moses or the Prophet like Moses and Elijah have already come. And most importantly, of course, the Messiah has already come. Yeah.
Yes. Right. So like. Like, like many scriptural passages, it can mean more than one thing at the same time. So Deuteronomy 18 and Malachi Right. But yeah, I think, I think your, your point is really the most important thing that we believe as Christians this has already happened, right? That that, that Moses or the Prophet like Moses and Elijah have already come. And most importantly, of course, the Messiah has already come. Yeah.
Okay. All right. Awesome. All right. So another question, and I think this is a good one because there's also some good Old Testament stuff in here. Why do we believe that Sunday is the right day for Sabbath? Uh huh.
Okay. All right. Awesome. All right. So another question, and I think this is a good one because there's also some good Old Testament stuff in here. Why do we believe that Sunday is the right day for Sabbath? Uh huh.
10:21
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Well, let's define Sabbath real quick. So Sabbath is, of course, the the the Jewish day of rest, day of rest. And it's Saturday.
Well, let's define Sabbath real quick. So Sabbath is, of course, the the the Jewish day of rest, day of rest. And it's Saturday.
Right. And literally. Right. It's the sixth day. The seventh day. It's literally right. I see it. And I said the sixth because we're like already I'm like already thinking of like our current weekend structure on Monday is the first day. Right? But yeah.
Right. And literally. Right. It's the sixth day. The seventh day. It's literally right. I see it. And I said the sixth because we're like already I'm like already thinking of like our current weekend structure on Monday is the first day. Right? But yeah.
10:45
Kathryn Schifferdecker
But yeah, mean usually mean. Even today we think of Sunday as the first day of the week. Yeah, right. Not the first work, right. First day of the workweek but the first day. And so then the seventh day is Saturday and that's the Sabbath in in the Jewish reckoning of time and Israelite. The Sabbath starts at sundown on the on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday. So 24 hour period, more or less day of rest. Right? Well, so. The first Christians are Jews, right? Jesus was a Jew. Was a Jew. Peter Jew.
But yeah, mean usually mean. Even today we think of Sunday as the first day of the week. Yeah, right. Not the first work, right. First day of the workweek but the first day. And so then the seventh day is Saturday and that's the Sabbath in in the Jewish reckoning of time and Israelite. The Sabbath starts at sundown on the on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday. So 24 hour period, more or less day of rest. Right? Well, so. The first Christians are Jews, right? Jesus was a Jew. Was a Jew. Peter Jew.
James Also a Jew. Also a Jew. Paul. Paul. Paul was a very righteous Jew.
James Also a Jew. Also a Jew. Paul. Paul. Paul was a very righteous Jew.
11:30
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Yes, he was Pharisee. Yeah. Yeah. So. So they being good Jews, being good, observant Jews observed the Sabbath. Right. So lots of examples in in the gospels and in acts of and some references in Paul's epistles to the early Christians, the early Jewish Christians who are who are the early Christians observing the Sabbath. But then what happens on Sunday of course, Sunday is is notable because that is the day of the resurrection, right? Right. So the gospels say early on the first day of the week, Sunday, the women went to the tomb and they find it empty. Right. So it seems to be the case. And there's, of course, scholars love to argue. So, you know, those people who disagree with this. But it seems to be the case that the early Christians, these Jewish Christians, observe the Sabbath, the Jewish Sabbath and also gathered on Sunday morning, the day of the resurrection, or sometime on Sunday, the day of the resurrection, to worship together, to break bread together. Right to. Yeah, to to celebrate that day of the resurrection. Well, as the church expands from just Jews to Gentiles, which of course, we read about in the Book of Acts and in some of the epistles, gradually that idea of the Sabbath gets kind of transferred to Sunday, the day of the resurrection. And so there is in 321 AD or C.E. Constantine, the Emperor Constantine, whose converts to Christianity issued an edict that Sunday shall be the day of rest throughout the Roman Empire. And he he doesn't say everybody has to worship, but he says that's the day of rest. And he makes exceptions for farmers in this edict. But but it's it may it seems to be the case that Christians, even before this, are resting. Resting, are kind of celebrating Sabbath on Sunday. And probably still Jewish Christians may be doing both Saturday and then worshiping on Sunday. But but gradually, as the church becomes more and more gentile, this this idea of Sabbath gets transferred to Sunday to the day of the resurrection. Yeah. So, yeah. Cool.
Yes, he was Pharisee. Yeah. Yeah. So. So they being good Jews, being good, observant Jews observed the Sabbath. Right. So lots of examples in in the gospels and in acts of and some references in Paul's epistles to the early Christians, the early Jewish Christians who are who are the early Christians observing the Sabbath. But then what happens on Sunday of course, Sunday is is notable because that is the day of the resurrection, right? Right. So the gospels say early on the first day of the week, Sunday, the women went to the tomb and they find it empty. Right. So it seems to be the case. And there's, of course, scholars love to argue. So, you know, those people who disagree with this. But it seems to be the case that the early Christians, these Jewish Christians, observe the Sabbath, the Jewish Sabbath and also gathered on Sunday morning, the day of the resurrection, or sometime on Sunday, the day of the resurrection, to worship together, to break bread together. Right to. Yeah, to to celebrate that day of the resurrection. Well, as the church expands from just Jews to Gentiles, which of course, we read about in the Book of Acts and in some of the epistles, gradually that idea of the Sabbath gets kind of transferred to Sunday, the day of the resurrection. And so there is in 321 AD or C.E. Constantine, the Emperor Constantine, whose converts to Christianity issued an edict that Sunday shall be the day of rest throughout the Roman Empire. And he he doesn't say everybody has to worship, but he says that's the day of rest. And he makes exceptions for farmers in this edict. But but it's it may it seems to be the case that Christians, even before this, are resting. Resting, are kind of celebrating Sabbath on Sunday. And probably still Jewish Christians may be doing both Saturday and then worshiping on Sunday. But but gradually, as the church becomes more and more gentile, this this idea of Sabbath gets transferred to Sunday to the day of the resurrection. Yeah. So, yeah. Cool.
Yeah. There you go.
Yeah. There you go.
13:55
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Of course, we should mention there are Christian denominations that still celebrate Sabbath and they were most notably Seventh-Day.
Of course, we should mention there are Christian denominations that still celebrate Sabbath and they were most notably Seventh-Day.
Adventist, Right?
Adventist, Right?
14:04
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Who who held Saturday as the day of worship and rest.
Who who held Saturday as the day of worship and rest.
Yes. And but there is a passage in Paul that says you don't have to do that. But remember where that's at. Yeah. Like your festivals and your Sabbath.
Yes. And but there is a passage in Paul that says you don't have to do that. But remember where that's at. Yeah. Like your festivals and your Sabbath.
14:16
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Yeah, I think it may, I'm thinking in First Corinthians, but I'm not sure like don't, don't condemn each other if you're observing different days. Yes. Yeah. Because it's not.
Yeah, I think it may, I'm thinking in First Corinthians, but I'm not sure like don't, don't condemn each other if you're observing different days. Yes. Yeah. Because it's not.
Yeah it's not that that yeah.
Yeah it's not that that yeah.
14:28
Kathryn Schifferdecker
It's not critical. As to which do you observe. There are a couple of places in I think it's in acts and in First Corinthians where it mentions the first day of the week as a day when the Christians break bread together and and offer offerings for the disciples in in Jerusalem. So. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.
It's not critical. As to which do you observe. There are a couple of places in I think it's in acts and in First Corinthians where it mentions the first day of the week as a day when the Christians break bread together and and offer offerings for the disciples in in Jerusalem. So. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.
I like it. Yeah.
I like it. Yeah.
14:51
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Of course, you know. Well, in our current culture.
Of course, you know. Well, in our current culture.
Oh, yeah. There's no such thing as a day of rest.
Oh, yeah. There's no such thing as a day of rest.
14:57
Kathryn Schifferdecker
There may be no dances. It's a 24/7 , but to our detriment. Mean, we need to reclaim that idea of rest. Think for our own sake. For the sake of our world. You know, instead of just going and going and going and going, we need to embrace that idea.
There may be no dances. It's a 24/7 , but to our detriment. Mean, we need to reclaim that idea of rest. Think for our own sake. For the sake of our world. You know, instead of just going and going and going and going, we need to embrace that idea.
The world will be okey without us for a day. Yeah, it really is like a practice of faith that like, actually it's not all on our shoulders and we're kind of silly to imagine that it is.
The world will be okey without us for a day. Yeah, it really is like a practice of faith that like, actually it's not all on our shoulders and we're kind of silly to imagine that it is.
15:23
Kathryn Schifferdecker
An act of faith that that God is God and we are not. Yeah, Yeah. Well, and then the last question, I think, yeah, both of us probably have a lot to say about this. So the question is short, but it's, it's it's really interesting. So the question is, how do Christians tell if a preacher is of God or false? Mm.
An act of faith that that God is God and we are not. Yeah, Yeah. Well, and then the last question, I think, yeah, both of us probably have a lot to say about this. So the question is short, but it's, it's it's really interesting. So the question is, how do Christians tell if a preacher is of God or false? Mm.
15:51
Kathryn Schifferdecker
So, What would you what would you say off the off the bat?
So, What would you what would you say off the off the bat?
Well, I mean, it is it's a it's a it's a marvelous question and it's an incredibly pertinent question in an era of all kinds of information. Um, most of it nonsense, um, you know, disinformation, disinformation, um, and people with competing claims and worldviews and all kinds of things, even to, I mean, there's always been nonsense in the world, let's not pretend otherwise, but the rate in which nonsense can be perpetuated in our, you know, thanks to the lightning speed at lightning speed, as it were. Yeah. Like it's it's it's it's a really important question and certainly a lot of people do those spread nonsense in the name of God. We hear that all the time. So um so it's a really I think it's a really important and particularly pertinent question for, for our moment that we're in right now. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I've sort of come to think of for this, um, is I want to ask to whom and, and, and to what is the, is the preacher pointing?
Well, I mean, it is it's a it's a it's a marvelous question and it's an incredibly pertinent question in an era of all kinds of information. Um, most of it nonsense, um, you know, disinformation, disinformation, um, and people with competing claims and worldviews and all kinds of things, even to, I mean, there's always been nonsense in the world, let's not pretend otherwise, but the rate in which nonsense can be perpetuated in our, you know, thanks to the lightning speed at lightning speed, as it were. Yeah. Like it's it's it's it's a really important question and certainly a lot of people do those spread nonsense in the name of God. We hear that all the time. So um so it's a really I think it's a really important and particularly pertinent question for, for our moment that we're in right now. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I've sort of come to think of for this, um, is I want to ask to whom and, and, and to what is the, is the preacher pointing?
17:06
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Yeah, that's a great question.
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I think. When I have heard I'm going to say false prophets speak. Yeah. Often they have said, Follow me, follow the prophet. Right. Follow me. And a true prophet or a true preacher will say, Follow Christ. Yep, yep. And the trick, though, is that sometimes people will say, they'll say follow Christ. But then the things that that entails have nothing to do with Christ. So you have to take it a step beyond that as well. So first just follow Christ and then second is is the way of Christ reflected in their teachings? Yeah. So is it about self-aggrandizement? Is it about riches? Is it about wealth? Is it about power? Or is it about giving away? Is it about caring for the neighbor? Is it about self-sacrificial sacrificial love? Is it about caring and tending to the poor and the needy and the outcasts? What Jesus did exactly is it is does do the teachings move you into what I would use a term, a cruciform life, A life that is shaped by the cross of Christ? Yeah. Or do the teachings point you to, you know, naming it and claiming it or, you know.
So I think. When I have heard I'm going to say false prophets speak. Yeah. Often they have said, Follow me, follow the prophet. Right. Follow me. And a true prophet or a true preacher will say, Follow Christ. Yep, yep. And the trick, though, is that sometimes people will say, they'll say follow Christ. But then the things that that entails have nothing to do with Christ. So you have to take it a step beyond that as well. So first just follow Christ and then second is is the way of Christ reflected in their teachings? Yeah. So is it about self-aggrandizement? Is it about riches? Is it about wealth? Is it about power? Or is it about giving away? Is it about caring for the neighbor? Is it about self-sacrificial sacrificial love? Is it about caring and tending to the poor and the needy and the outcasts? What Jesus did exactly is it is does do the teachings move you into what I would use a term, a cruciform life, A life that is shaped by the cross of Christ? Yeah. Or do the teachings point you to, you know, naming it and claiming it or, you know.
18:34
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Or send me money and you'll be rewarded.
Or send me money and you'll be rewarded.
Be blessed and fourfold or whatever. Exactly. And, and if, if it's not, if it's not the former. Right. If it's not inviting you into a life, into the death and resurrection of Christ, then that's a false teacher. Yeah. Yeah. And you find they're everywhere? Yep. They're on TV. They're in. In our. In our pulpits. I mean, yeah, you got to be careful.
Be blessed and fourfold or whatever. Exactly. And, and if, if it's not, if it's not the former. Right. If it's not inviting you into a life, into the death and resurrection of Christ, then that's a false teacher. Yeah. Yeah. And you find they're everywhere? Yep. They're on TV. They're in. In our. In our pulpits. I mean, yeah, you got to be careful.
19:10
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Yeah, No, I totally agree with you. It's a really pertinent question, and it reminds me of. So ten, ten years ago, I lived in Ethiopia for a year and taught Ethiopian students at a Lutheran seminary, the seminary. And and they asked this quite a very similar question. They said, How can you tell a true prophet from a false prophet? Which which threw me for a while. I've never heard that question from from an American student because I think it's it's not as common.
Yeah, No, I totally agree with you. It's a really pertinent question, and it reminds me of. So ten, ten years ago, I lived in Ethiopia for a year and taught Ethiopian students at a Lutheran seminary, the seminary. And and they asked this quite a very similar question. They said, How can you tell a true prophet from a false prophet? Which which threw me for a while. I've never heard that question from from an American student because I think it's it's not as common.
People aren't claiming to be prophets. You're not claiming to be prophets.
People aren't claiming to be prophets. You're not claiming to be prophets.
19:44
Kathryn Schifferdecker
They don't use that. They are.
They don't use that. They are.
But they're not like some of them are. But. But yeah, right.
But they're not like some of them are. But. But yeah, right.
19:48
Kathryn Schifferdecker
But but it's I think I think it's the same question. Right. How do you tell if a preacher is of God or false? How do you tell a true preacher or prophet from a false prophet? And and I just want to and I came up with a list for my students. And you've already said a lot of this, so I won't repeat that. But I think we can look to scripture. Yeah. You know, to to for the answers to that question as well. So I had referred earlier in this episode, in this podcast to Deuteronomy 18 about the Prophet that God's going to send like Moses. But it goes on in that chapter to talk about how do you tell a true prophet? And God says, anyone who does not sorry, any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods or presumed or presumed who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak, that prophet shall die. So I think, you know, one easy answer is if a prophet or preacher speaks in the name of someone other than Jesus, then that's an obvious clue that that's a false prophet, right? Preacher. And it goes on to say, if that if that prophet's word doesn't come true, then you know their false. Well, that's that's great, except usually you have to know it in the moment. And you can't wait 20 years. I know there's.
But but it's I think I think it's the same question. Right. How do you tell if a preacher is of God or false? How do you tell a true preacher or prophet from a false prophet? And and I just want to and I came up with a list for my students. And you've already said a lot of this, so I won't repeat that. But I think we can look to scripture. Yeah. You know, to to for the answers to that question as well. So I had referred earlier in this episode, in this podcast to Deuteronomy 18 about the Prophet that God's going to send like Moses. But it goes on in that chapter to talk about how do you tell a true prophet? And God says, anyone who does not sorry, any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods or presumed or presumed who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak, that prophet shall die. So I think, you know, one easy answer is if a prophet or preacher speaks in the name of someone other than Jesus, then that's an obvious clue that that's a false prophet, right? Preacher. And it goes on to say, if that if that prophet's word doesn't come true, then you know their false. Well, that's that's great, except usually you have to know it in the moment. And you can't wait 20 years. I know there's.
A lot of retrospect involved and like, oh, did that or did that not come true? Like you can't always know. So I think while I.
A lot of retrospect involved and like, oh, did that or did that not come true? Like you can't always know. So I think while I.
21:14
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Think that what you talked about is really key, right? That that who does the prophet call you to follow or who does the preacher call you to follow? If it's not Jesus, then then something's wrong. And. Well, Jesus himself addresses this in Matthew seven. He says, Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. I think that's, you know, related to what you were saying, too, right? What are the fruits of this preacher's life? Is it a personal jet? Right. And a mansion, or is it a life of self-sacrificial love and care for God's people and working for justice and that sort of thing. So. So you'll know them by their fruits. Um, they don't seek self-promotion or riches. Think about Elijah in Second Kings five when Namon the Syrian when he heals,Namon the Syrian and naming wants to give him gold and silver and all these luxury goods and elisha's like, no. Yeah, right. Doesn't seek riches. And. And the true prophet doesn't seek to be a prophet.
Think that what you talked about is really key, right? That that who does the prophet call you to follow or who does the preacher call you to follow? If it's not Jesus, then then something's wrong. And. Well, Jesus himself addresses this in Matthew seven. He says, Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. I think that's, you know, related to what you were saying, too, right? What are the fruits of this preacher's life? Is it a personal jet? Right. And a mansion, or is it a life of self-sacrificial love and care for God's people and working for justice and that sort of thing. So. So you'll know them by their fruits. Um, they don't seek self-promotion or riches. Think about Elijah in Second Kings five when Namon the Syrian when he heals,Namon the Syrian and naming wants to give him gold and silver and all these luxury goods and elisha's like, no. Yeah, right. Doesn't seek riches. And. And the true prophet doesn't seek to be a prophet.
Yeah they they just. You do not you do not want to be a prophet. That that's the worst man. Being a prophet is the worst. And like the people that sort of leap to. Being one, you know, or like, want to call themselves a prophet. Yeah, that's kind of. That's a clue.
Yeah they they just. You do not you do not want to be a prophet. That that's the worst man. Being a prophet is the worst. And like the people that sort of leap to. Being one, you know, or like, want to call themselves a prophet. Yeah, that's kind of. That's a clue.
22:42
Kathryn Schifferdecker
That kind of ego trip. Yeah. Is a is a clue to being a false teacher, Probably. Yeah. I would just add one more and this is maybe not quite as important, but I think it's still worth saying that a true prophet or preacher is concerned both with. Justice and with morality or both with personal sin and with societal sin. So I feel like, you know, in the church, you know, to put it generally the progressive side of the church is all concerned about the isms and societal sin and not so much about individual morality. And, you know, again, a generalization, but the right side of the church is concerned only with personal morality and doesn't talk about in general, doesn't talk about racism.
That kind of ego trip. Yeah. Is a is a clue to being a false teacher, Probably. Yeah. I would just add one more and this is maybe not quite as important, but I think it's still worth saying that a true prophet or preacher is concerned both with. Justice and with morality or both with personal sin and with societal sin. So I feel like, you know, in the church, you know, to put it generally the progressive side of the church is all concerned about the isms and societal sin and not so much about individual morality. And, you know, again, a generalization, but the right side of the church is concerned only with personal morality and doesn't talk about in general, doesn't talk about racism.
Or systemic injustice.
Or systemic injustice.
23:29
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Sexism or systemic injustice. So I feel like the true preacher or prophet in scripture, the prophets are concerned with both. They're concerned with idolatry, but they're also concerned with injustice. They're concerned with sexual morality, but they're also concerned with feeding the hungry and taking care of the poor. So. So, yeah, I think I think that the true preacher can't be pigeonholed into one.
Sexism or systemic injustice. So I feel like the true preacher or prophet in scripture, the prophets are concerned with both. They're concerned with idolatry, but they're also concerned with injustice. They're concerned with sexual morality, but they're also concerned with feeding the hungry and taking care of the poor. So. So, yeah, I think I think that the true preacher can't be pigeonholed into one.
When I've seen. Yeah, when I've seen when I've seen people that I think, you know that that really strike me as like getting it. It's like it's kind of impossible to pin them down. Yeah, you kind of. You kind of could never know. Yeah, Like what? Where they stood on, you know, in the at least in the sort of partisan. Right. Wars of, you know, contemporary American society, you're kind of like, Are you a liberal? Are you a conservative? I can't tell what you are because there's something you know, there's something there that that's that's deeper.
When I've seen. Yeah, when I've seen when I've seen people that I think, you know that that really strike me as like getting it. It's like it's kind of impossible to pin them down. Yeah, you kind of. You kind of could never know. Yeah, Like what? Where they stood on, you know, in the at least in the sort of partisan. Right. Wars of, you know, contemporary American society, you're kind of like, Are you a liberal? Are you a conservative? I can't tell what you are because there's something you know, there's something there that that's that's deeper.
24:35
Kathryn Schifferdecker
That's more foundational. Yeah. I think about I'm a big fan of Pope Francis, right? Yeah.
That's more foundational. Yeah. I think about I'm a big fan of Pope Francis, right? Yeah.
He's a lot that way.
He's a lot that way.
24:41
Kathryn Schifferdecker
He is like when he when he came to visit in the United States when Obama was president, he no, you know, neither the Republicans nor Democrats could claim him completely. Right. Because he's he's pro-life across the board. Right. Pro anti-abortion, pro-environment, pro-immigrant, you know, penalty anti-death penalty. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that that really is the mark of a of a good preacher, good spiritual leader, someone who can't be co-opted. Co-opted. Yeah, that's a great word. Yeah.
He is like when he when he came to visit in the United States when Obama was president, he no, you know, neither the Republicans nor Democrats could claim him completely. Right. Because he's he's pro-life across the board. Right. Pro anti-abortion, pro-environment, pro-immigrant, you know, penalty anti-death penalty. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that that really is the mark of a of a good preacher, good spiritual leader, someone who can't be co-opted. Co-opted. Yeah, that's a great word. Yeah.
By by a political, you know, partisan political movement. Yeah.
By by a political, you know, partisan political movement. Yeah.
25:17
Kathryn Schifferdecker
Yeah. Having said all that, of course, preachers are human beings. Sinners, sinners and saints. Sinners and saints at the same time. So give them some slack to give them some grace.
Yeah. Having said all that, of course, preachers are human beings. Sinners, sinners and saints. Sinners and saints at the same time. So give them some slack to give them some grace.
25:33
Kathryn Schifferdecker
And they're not always going to get it.
And they're not always going to get it.
Right. No, they're not always going to get it right. And ultimately, ultimately, it's it's Christ, right? Yes. Ultimately it's it's it's it's God that we're that we're concerned with. Right. And and and so, and so we don't need our preachers to be perfect. Right. Um, because God has given us his grace. Yeah.
Right. No, they're not always going to get it right. And ultimately, ultimately, it's it's Christ, right? Yes. Ultimately it's it's it's it's God that we're that we're concerned with. Right. And and and so, and so we don't need our preachers to be perfect. Right. Um, because God has given us his grace. Yeah.
26:00
Kathryn Schifferdecker
We, we in fact, pray for our preachers, pray for our leaders, pray for our preachers that that they might know God more and more and be people of integrity and mercy and grace and wisdom. Yeah. Yeah. So.
We, we in fact, pray for our preachers, pray for our leaders, pray for our preachers that that they might know God more and more and be people of integrity and mercy and grace and wisdom. Yeah. Yeah. So.
Well, wonderful. Well, thank you, listeners, so much for being with us today on this Lightning round episode of the Enter the Bible podcast. And you can get more commentary, resources, reflections, conversations at our website. EntertheBible.org And of course, please, if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast app, rate us and review us. Be sure to subscribe if you're watching on YouTube. Um rate like us subscribe mash that subscribe button. I heard that's what the kids say these days on YouTube. Sounds violent, does sound violent. Uh, so maybe just tap it gently and of course, be sure to share the podcast with a friend until next time.
Well, wonderful. Well, thank you, listeners, so much for being with us today on this Lightning round episode of the Enter the Bible podcast. And you can get more commentary, resources, reflections, conversations at our website. EntertheBible.org And of course, please, if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast app, rate us and review us. Be sure to subscribe if you're watching on YouTube. Um rate like us subscribe mash that subscribe button. I heard that's what the kids say these days on YouTube. Sounds violent, does sound violent. Uh, so maybe just tap it gently and of course, be sure to share the podcast with a friend until next time.