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Is there a difference between human and satanic evil?

Published Nov 5, 2024, 4:00 PM

In the latest episode of the Enter the Bible podcast, hosts Katie Langston and Kathryn Schifferdecker sit down with Luther Seminary Professor and Olin and Amanda Fjelstad Registad Chair for Systematic Theology, Lois Malcolm to tackle the challenging themes of human and demonic evil. 

Together, they unpack the crucial distinctions between these two forms of evil, examining how human choices impact our moral compass and how forgiveness plays a vital role in breaking the chains of evil. Through a powerful exploration of the cross and the support of community, the conversation highlights how faith and unity can address the spiritual forces at work in our world today.

Do you have Bible questions you would like answered? Go to our website at https://enterthebible.org/about to get started.

Watch this video on YouTube at https://youtu.be/zGcTUVieJ90.

Hello and welcome to the Enter the Bible podcast, where you can get answers or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible but were afraid to ask. I am Katie Langston

and I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker.

And we have again as our special guest, our dear friend and colleague, Professor Lois Malcolm. She's professor of systematic theology at Luther Seminary, where we all work. So, Lois, thank you again for coming to join us for another episode of this podcast. It's great to have you.

Delight to be here.

Good good, good. Always good to have you. Uh, so our, uh, question today was submitted by a listener. And as, as usual, you're if you have a question that you would like us to address, go to enter the Bible.org and submit it. We can't get to all of the questions, but we try to get to as many as we can. So the the short version of this question is, is there a difference between human and satanic evil? And the question, that's how we're kind of summarizing it. But the the longer form of the question that was submitted was having experienced both the worst and best of humanity, and knowing that both human and satanic evil exist, is it important to distinguish between them, or is evil just evil, with the difference being only in depth or intensity? So, Lois, we give you the hard questions. So because we love you and we know you have good answers. So is there is it important to is there a difference? And is it important to, uh, to make that distinction between human and demonic or satanic evil?

First of all, I, I think, I think that we can make the distinction and that it is important to make the distinction. I would say that one of the problems with, um, especially American, a mainline Protestantism, um, is that we have forgotten the force and power of demonic power and satanic power, and that we reduce everything simply to the consequences of human action. And so we don't recognize that there are, in fact, spiritual forces at work. Um, this has been a central theme in the biblical tradition, which is that there are angelic and satanic forces at work. There are spiritual powers. However, we want to define that. However, we want to understand that. And, um, we are deceiving ourselves when we don't recognize that. So yes, I think we do need to make a distinction. On the other hand, I don't think we should dwell on if we are going to talk about satanic forces, what we need to emphasize is the fact that the cross of Christ overcomes all powers, spiritual and human, in the sense that all have died in the cross. Um, as as, um, Luther's. Luther's great hymn, a mighty fortress is our God. There's that quotation. A little word shall fell, shall fell them all of the demonic powers. And that little word is the word of the cross. So we have nothing to fear. On the other hand, we do need to recognize what kinds of forces we're up against. And I could go on, but push back or tell me where to go from here. Yeah.

No, no, I think I think you're exactly right, Lois. And I think, uh, you mentioned American Christians. I think that's certainly true for all Western Christians. I think European and American Christians tend not to. And obviously this is an overgeneralization. There are certainly American Christians who who take, you know, demonic or satanic evil seriously, but mainline Protestant? Many Catholic. Well, I would say the majority of American Christians don't talk about it that much. You grew up, Lois. You grew up as the child of missionaries in the Philippines. I don't have that experience, but I have spent a significant amount of time in sub-Saharan Africa. And I think in both of those contexts, particularly, you know, and across the global South, generally speaking, Christians are more attuned to or aware of, or willing to acknowledge the presence of evil as a force, as a spiritual force, you know, demonic or satanic, however you want to define that. I think, uh, maybe maybe to the other extreme, right, maybe attributing too much to to that. I remember I was teaching a class in Ethiopia, and some of my students were talking about a woman they knew who was acting very strangely. She was the wife of an evangelist, a Christian woman, and she she was just acting very strangely. And so people came and, you know, prayed over her and were going to cast out a demon. And then they realized that she hadn't eaten for a week. Right. The, the, the evangelist was paid. The evangelist was paid so little. I mean, that's another matter, right? That injustice that she, you know, her her acting out was not demons. It was a physical reaction to, to, you know, hunger or starvation. Really? Yeah. Uh, and so they they were like, you know, you just have to discern, right? You can't attribute everything to demonic forces, but you have to be aware that they are, you know, that their presence is real.

So in fact, I would say the wrong the wrong people often address the wrong issue. I mean, for example, I think a lot of American Christians want to explain everything in terms that are empirical, or they want to explain everything in terms of the consequences of human actions. And so they are unprepared as a society for dealing with forces that go beyond merely human actions or the ways in which human actions can take on like movements in a society at large can take on an evil force. So so we're unprepared for that. On the other hand, and even in American society, there are a lot of people who see demons all around the place and then also who call other people demonic. Do you know what I mean? In in false and inappropriate ways. So it seems like the wrong people hear the wrong message. The people who need to be aware of demonic powers are are tuned out and the people who need to start looking for as you as you pointed out in your story, Kathryn. Other reasons for the behavior. Um, they need to be more aware of, you know, that there are very there's a very we live in a very real empirical world that has consequences for for actions. Yeah.

Let me let me ask a question, Lois. So, um, so what would you say is the difference between, like, what is human evil if we if we understand that demonic evil is like or satanic evil is, you know, to your point, we don't. I in fact, when I get questions like this from, um, parishioners, um, I'll often, you know, try to answer it briefly, but then I'll say, you know, we probably shouldn't spend a lot of time trying to, like, map the precise metaphysics of, of the demonic. Let's, you know, let's focus on Christ. Right. But but understanding that we do acknowledge the reality and existence of Forces and entities that are opposed to God. Um, what what what is. And that would be we would call satanic or demonic evil. What is human evil and how is it distinct from those things?

First of all, the the where where our idea of Satan comes from is the sort of the classical understanding of this is that Satan is a fallen angel. That Satan was an angel simply, is not, not divine, but but a power that is not human, that transcends human powers, but does have is a kind of spiritual force in the world. So the satanic is a spiritual force for evil as opposed to a spiritual force for good. So just to clarify now, the distinction with with human beings is that we as human beings have bodies, and which means that we are subject to time and space. And so where our evil comes in is the evil that that is a result of our intentional choices, our intentional moral choices that are very much connected with how we conduct ourselves in time and space. Whereas a spiritual force is a force in a sense that transcends that time and space and that sort of, um, yeah, the time and space consequences of action. So what makes it human is that what makes human evil? It's moral. And if you want to think about what's moral or not moral, just think of the Ten Commandments, okay? In terms of how do you treat other people? For example, do you do you treat other people with justice? So anything that is unjust or that violates the trust that we have for one another is evil and has consequences, now where the demonic can tie in with our human evil Mhm. Is that often when we give ourselves over to the choices that we to bad choices, so to speak, to, to the negative consequences of our action, we can get so caught up that in a sense we open a space for these, for the negative, the evil forces to take over, which often happens both on a personal level but also on a societal level. Yeah. For example, in capitalist economies, for example, where everybody is measured by their performance, by how successful you are, by wisdom, by human wisdom, wealth and power. Well, if you evaluate people on the basis of whether they are wealthy or powerful and do not recognize that other people and yourself is made in God's image and therefore deserving of love and respect. When we give ourselves over to again to the to simply power and wealth as being the criteria by which we judge and make choices. We literally do open ourselves up as a society to forces that can that can take over.

That's that's a sobering statement, but very.

Sobering, because I think we pay those consequences. I think we're paying those kinds. Now, it's very it's very difficult to now say, okay, here's the demon. You know, here's the person who's been I don't think it's for us to to be pinpointing and looking for details behind. But this was Paul Tillich's argument about Nazi socialism in, in Germany during the 1930s that because the, the Protestant church, the, the Lutheran church had lost its capacity to speak especially to the working classes, especially young working class males, there was a spiritual vacuum. Yeah. And because of that spiritual vacuum. They needed something to give them a sense of dignity and purpose, and that's why they turned to Nazi socialism, which ended up having a kind of demonic power. In fact, Tillich has a very nice definition of how do you know whether it's demonic or not? You know, a spiritual power is this creative, this power for creating life and or death. Do you know what I mean? That spiritual power brings about life or death. It's demonic when that creative power is not aligned with goodness and justice. You see, God's power is always both merciful and just. It's always powerful, but it's always just. And demonic, spiritual power becomes demonic when it simply has the force. But it has no, but it's not based on the criteria of justice. So that wealth and power really are the criteria. What is going to generate more wealth, and what is going to enable me to have power over other people that that can then when when we commit ourselves to those values, we allow we open ourselves up to, to forces that that captivate us. And that can happen on a personal level, too. Yeah, I know in my own life I don't want to say that I was demon possessed. Sure. But I know that I, I was opening myself up to forces beyond merely the consequences of either my my actions or other people's actions, which which bred a kind of resentment and anger that I that I was gripped in, that I had to, in a sense, be released from. Right. That's why forgiveness.

How are you released from that?

This is where we need one another as community. My my former colleague, Jan Ramsey. You know, you knew Jan. Yes, yes.

I know Jan. Yeah.

She and I, she was a pastoral care prof at Luther Seminary, and she and I taught a course together on forgiveness, but we wanted to do the work on each other, and she spent a lot of time helping me work through much of my anger and resentment because she saw, I mean, she could analyze it on a psychological level, but I think there really was a spiritual factor that I needed to be released from.

And so forgiveness, forgiveness is one of the keys to the.

Keys and declaring that when we declare forgiveness, we're not letting people off the hook. Forgiveness is the declaration of God's power that you have been freed from the power of sin and death and demonic forces. Do you know what I mean? You are freed from everything that holds you back, and we need to declare that to one another, both in church and outside of church. I mean, we need to be reminded that God's power is greater than all the other powers that grip us.

Yeah. That's so, so important. Lois, thank you for bringing that up. And that power of forgiveness is power not just for the person forgiven, but also for the one doing the forgiving. Right? Not not allowing that anger or that resentment or that guilt maybe. Or or shame to to control you, but to to to announce, to pronounce that word of forgiveness and and for the sake of Christ, to release, to release you from that. I want to so I'm I think you're exactly right, Lois. And your your example of Nazi ism is important. And fortunately, we still see neo-Nazis today. You know, going back to that, we see other movements. I want to point out a contemporary movement at the risk of being too political, but the obsession we have in the United States with guns, with firearms and the the real kind of Death, um, you know, uh, fascination with death. Now, I, I am all for hunting. I, you know, have served a lot and come from a small town. You know, if you want to have a gun to hunt deer, go for it. If you want a handgun for protection, that's your choice. What I what I, I think, you know, with all the mass shootings we've seen, particularly in schools, you know, what a heart wrenching thing, uh, the proliferation of of guns in cities. Uh, we've had just a few, a couple of weeks ago in Minneapolis, two different weekends, uh, guns were used in people died. And you know, that, uh, that that idolization of firearms or guns to the exclusion of care for children and, you know, other innocents who are being killed by them? Uh, I just think that's I do think that's demonic. Uh, and and idolatry. Now, I'm sure there are listeners who will disagree with me, and I honor you. I respect you, but I just think there are examples all around us of forces that that that work with human evil, but amplify it, amplify it to a degree where death is. Yeah. Where there's a kind of cult of death that results.

And I just I want to follow up with Tillich's insight about Nazi, Nazi socialism in Germany, because his challenge was really a challenge to the German Christians of the time, which I think is a challenge we face, um, as Christians, for example, in the United States. And that is that when we are not actively engaged in caring for the young and teaching the young in our midst about what it means to live in the faith when we are not actively engaged in building institutions, colleges, seminaries, churches, etc. that actually can be places where faith is formed and where identity is shaped around values and justice and mercy. That's when we do open ourselves to this cult of death, which you're describing, Kathryn. And it doesn't matter whether you're a liberal or a conservative. This is not about what your politics is, but it is about how do we as Christian communities shape one another so that the focus is not on there are demons around the corner? The focus is, how do we fill that spiritual vacuum so that we don't open ourselves up to these other forces that quickly come in? Yeah. To give people an identity that is other than Jesus.

Right. Right.

I think it's what you said about sort of the animating force. Lois is really interesting to me. And just remembering that, like those animating powers or whatever. You can discern them, um, based on, like, what is behind them. And, you know, if it doesn't take the shape of the cross, right of self. Right? Self-giving, um, care, uh, love and love, then you're probably dealing with a different kind of force, and you probably don't want to mess with that, right? And, um. Yeah. And I think we see all around us, you know, places where the animating force is, is not, um, the self-giving and love of the cross, so.

Right, right. And God's justice and mercy life. Yeah. Yeah. And in some ways, right. I always tell my students, you can avoid politics, just teach scripture, right. And quite frankly, there are pretty explicit things most of we can argue about a lot in Scripture, but most of Scripture is actually pretty explicit. It's about life, not death. Do you know what I mean? It's about justice, not injustice.

Right, right. Yeah, yeah. And I'll I'll just say, since I brought up the, you know, the gun issue, that there are demonic, there are forces, death dealing forces on the left as well. Absolutely. And and.

All. All of us.

All all of us are. Uh, yeah. All of us are, um, uh, sinful. Right? Uh, on left and right. And, uh, and if your theology looks too much like one or the other, like the left or the right, then you better reexamine your theology, because we all fall prey to sin. So, uh, but the the last word, really, I think, is what you've already said, Lois. Right. That, uh, we we need to acknowledge these forces. Right? We need to know they exist, but we can't be so fascinated with them and see them under, you know, under every stone. And we need to proclaim always that they do. They are not as powerful as Christ, that they are defeated, defeated already in the cross. Right. Right. So they still have power, but they don't have ultimate power. And that and that. We we are safe. We are saved. We are, uh, we are held in God's love through the power of the Holy Spirit.

And paradoxically, it is God's self sacrificial love demonstrated on the cross that overcomes these powers. That that. That's why I love Luther's line. One little word shall fell them. Right. That it's not about a more powerful power. It's. It's literally the power of the cross, as you were saying. Yeah.

Yeah. That's that is beautiful. Well, thank you so much. Uh, again. Another, another conversation we could continue to have for a long time. But, um, there's, um, you know, there's only so much time. So thank you, Lois, for being with us today. Thank you. Lois, uh, really appreciate that. And thank you to our listeners and viewers for joining us on this episode of the Enter the Bible podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please do a couple of things we would ask you very nicely one. Go to your to Apple or to one of your favorite podcast apps, and rate and review the podcast that really helps other people learn about it or like and subscribe to our channel. Uh, and head over to enter the Bible.org for more great resources. Um, conversations like this, videos, courses, all kinds of cool things over there. Uh, and of course, the most wonderful compliment you can pay us is to share this episode with a friend. So thanks so much for doing that, and we'll see you next time.