Welcome, to season five of Enter the Bible, a podcast in which we share "Everything You Wanted to Know about the Bible...but were afraid to ask."
In episode 3 of season 5, Lutheran theologian and author, guest Paul R. Hinlicky joins hosts Katie Langston and Kathryn Schifferdecker. He has served congregations in New York, New Jersey, and Virginia and is an eagerly anticipated speaker at church events and academic conferences alike.
Today our theologians will be answering the question, "How Did the 12 Tribes Enter the Promised Land?"
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Enter the Bible podcast where you can get answers or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible. But we're afraid to ask. I'm Katie Langston
And I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker And our guest for this podcast is Professor Reverend Dr. Paul Hinlicky. He's the Tice professor emeritus at Roanoke College in Virginia, and he's on the graduate faculty at the Institute of Lutheran Theology. And we are so grateful that he is with us today and willing to talk with us about an important topic. Thanks and welcome, Paul.
Thank you very much, Kathryn. And hello, Katie, to you, too. I'm happy to be with you today.
So glad you're here.
Uh, we have a question for you, Paul, from a listener and again for our listeners on the podcast, If you have a particular question that you would like to ask, just go to EntertheBible.org . The question from the listener is this How did the 12 tribes of Israel enter the Promised Land? And related to that, what do we do with stories of violence in the Bible? Now we're asking you this question, Paul, because, of course, you're the author of a recent commentary on the book of Joshua in the Brazos Theological commentaries on the series on the Bible. And it's really the book of Joshua that that is the one is the is the really problematic book for many Christians, because it is the story of the so-called conquest of the land. As the children of Israel have left Egypt left the bondage of slavery and wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. Now, after Moses's death and under the leadership of Joshua, they enter the Promised land. And there's many stories of of conquest, of battles, of the Israelites annihilating or defeating the people of the land to take over the promised land.
So, like, aren't they, aren't they commanded to. Kathryn Like the, the text is like God says, go in there and don't spare anyone and wipe them all out. Right. So that's a lot. Yeah.
It's a lot for us, but it's been a lot for believers from the beginning. When I when I began working on Joshua, I read the commentary of the church Father origin of Alexandria. And of course, he had a major conflict with the rival Gnostic sects who were saying that the God of the Old Testament is a violent and vengeful deity. The author of this dark and worthless world. And he's not identical with the father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Excuse me. So Origin is among other church fathers dealing with this deviation from the fact that Jesus, of course, addressed that very God of Israel as his own ABBA father and experienced himself being addressed by that ABBA father as beloved son. So there is a real problem here. If you cannot affirm that Jesus, the God of Jesus, is the God of Israel. That's a big issue, isn't it? Of course it's the big issue. Origin had knew the offense people took at the book of Joshua when he got to Chapter eight, which is this litany of slaughter, he said. I mean, at that point, Origin says, I know many of you are sick and disgusted with hearing all about about all this blood and violence. And he says, now we have to we have to find a way of reading this that is proper for Christians and I think hermeneutically. That's exactly right. There's no such thing. I think as a literal reading of Joshua, there's various Jewish readings of Joshua and there are various Christian readings of Joshua. But anyone who says this is a plain sense meaning of the text that sets aside its place within these religious traditions that flow out of Israel, I suppose you could include Islam to their. Though Islam, I think, more or less ignores the conquest. They don't really care for the idea that God chose the Jews as his own people. Yeah, but anyway, so to me, Kathryn, the first question we have to ask about Joshua is what kind of literature is this? Yes.
Always a good question.
What kind of literature is this? And as I worked on the Book of Joshua, it became very, very clear to me that this book was composed after the exile centuries, maybe five, six, seven centuries after the purported history that is being represented in the book. Yeah. And when you take that issue of the context of the composition, it becomes clear that the burning issue for the author and the first readers is we have lost the land that the Lord once gave our ancestors, and now we are, as in the Book of Ezra. And now here we are, slaves in our own land under the hegemony of foreign kings and leaders. Okay.
So and just to quickly interrupt for the for our listeners that might not be familiar with the whole sort of kind of basic narrative arc of the Old Testament, when we talk about the exile, we're referring to the time after the Babylonian empire came in and kind of. Took over the land and kicked a bunch of the people, not everyone, but kicked a bunch of people out and made them go to Babylon and like took over their land and their, you know, households and that sort of thing. Right. And and that was a very and that was a very important moment in the history of the Jewish people, because they had been promised this land and now they didn't have it. And so it was like this question of, you know, can we is God faithful to us?
So we're talking like five, 587 BCE. And the so they yes, the the elite of the land or many of all the leaders of the land, at least, are taken into exile in Babylon. They they're able to return in 539 after Persia defeats the Babylonian empire. But it's still the case that is what we call Israel today, or Judah in those days is under the authority, under the control of various empires, the Babylonian empire, than the Persian Empire. So so what you're saying, Paul, is this book of Joshua, the story of the conquest, which literally is set in the time right after the Exodus. So the wilderness wanderings in actuality is written for a people who are who are under the control, who are who are oppressed by a series of empires and need to hear a word of of hope. Right?
Exactly. And it's also a burning question not just of theodicy, of the faithfulness of God. It's also a burning question of if anthroposophy, how do we how do we justify the human behavior which has led to the loss of the of the land of Israel? And that's where I think Joshua becomes very interesting when we understand that it's a theological text. It is primarily a theological text that's trying to answer the question, Why have we become just like the Canaanites, whom our ancestors under Joshua defeated? And that's a profoundly probing question, I think. So to get to the to the meat of the matter, I would like to tell readers, make a point with listeners about this, if you like, the exodus. If you like God liberating these Hebrew refugee refugees at the Red Sea or the Sea of Reeds, whatever that was. If you like that and you like the song of Victory that Miriam sings in Exodus 15 about, the Lord is a warrior, The Lord is His name. If you like the rescue from the slaveholders, you've also got to like the Book of Joshua, because it's exactly the same conflict that's being pursued. And even historical studies here, I think, are indicating along these lines that the Canaanite, the walled Canaanite city states were under the hegemony of the Egyptian empire at the time of the tribes were entering the land of Israel. So the book of Joshua is representing the so called conquest as an extension of the exodus. The exodus is continuing in the defeat of the walled Canaan City states. Mm. Now, in that context, you know, we have the issue of violence, which is so appalling to contemporary readers after the appalling 20th century, continuing today with various episodes of genocide. Yeah. And here we have to, of course, put on our historical imagination and understand this in the context of the ancient Near East, where in wars of conquest, standard practice was to slaughter the adult male population to to disarm the conquered people so there would be no possibility of resistance. But then what became of the women and the children? They became slaves. They were enslaved. That was that was how conquest worked. And then, of course, you could you could grab up all the booty and so forth. Now, what's so surprising about the law of harem? That's the Hebrew word for this ban. Or we translated as the ban or whatever devoted to destruction, I think is another translation. What's so interesting about that is that absolutely undercuts the secular motives for wars of conquest. If you can't take the women and children of slaves, if you cannot possess their property as booty, what's the point of going to war? You know, so the the rule of harem that's so offenses with its massive command to exterminate every living thing is very it makes it very clear that Israel is only to fight under the direction of the Lord. And the Lord has his own purposes in this battle. And that's, I think, another essentially theological point to grasp. Do you remember the episode just before the fall of Jericho where Joshua suddenly transported and there he is in Jericho. Somehow it's really kind of mystical. And he meets the captain of the armies of the Lord, standing in front of him holding a sword. And it's a very ominous picture. And Joshua immediately falls to the ground. And then he very meekly says, Are you on our side or are you against us? And basically, this mysterious figure replies, neither, I'm not on your side and I'm not on the other side. I'm on my own side. And that's an indication that Israel is to fight for the Lord's purposes and never for its own. And so all these battles that we see in the Book of Joshua amount to this. They amount to the dispossession of the kings of the Canaanite city states and the destruction of their walls, and then the rest of the performance of the command to exterminate is in the book of Joshua is very ambiguously fulfilled. In fact, it proves impossible to fulfill. And the most important narratives in Joshua Rahab, the prostitute and the Knights, are evidence that the foreigners in Canaan were assimilated into Israel. They were not universally exterminated. And these very significant narrative episodes indicate that the Lord has his own purposes, which he's accomplishing, and it means the Lord is destroying walled cities with their kings, and Israel is to be his people under his kingship and not to imitate or act like the Canaanite city states. As I said, an extension of Egyptian hegemony. So you see, if you put all this together and I'll stop here, if you put all this together, you see how in the exile, the theologians writing the book of Joshua were saying something like this Why did we lose the land that the Lord once gave our ancestors? Answer Because we became just like the Canaanites that the Lord was dispossessing.
That's that's really helpful, Paul. Wow. Remember when I. When I read your book. You talked about very similarly to what you're just saying. You know, that you shouldn't read or one shouldn't read. Joshua in a literalist sense, but a literary spiritual reading. And you talked about the gospel of Joshua, the good news of Joshua being that the Lord fights for us. You know, the talking about the the Lord who fights for us. Um, and I was reminded of a class that I taught several years ago now that included Joshua. It was a class on the first several books of the Old Testament. And when we got to Joshua, which is not one of my favorite books, I was kind of apologetic for the violence, right? And there was an African, African American woman in the class who kind of listened to that and listened to all of us kind of moaning, bemoaning the violence in Joshua. And finally she spoke up and said, look, I don't know what's wrong with you all. I don't know what you why you have a problem with this book. She said, From my church, from my black church. This is good news, right? Because Joshua Joshua tells us that God is faithful and that God will deliver on his promises to, you know, to give us what he has promised us. So that you're talking about that just reminded me of that conversation.
You know, Kathryn, I know in the new hymnal, Evangelical Lutheran worship or is that what it is? Yeah.
Yeah, the, the Maroon one.
All of the songs of militant grace have been washed out. You can't sing Lead on O King Eternal or you can't sing Onward Christian Soldiers or you mean why not exclude a mighty fortress? Our God? That's about the most militant hymn that's ever been written, you know. So this theme, my theological friend Philip Ziegler, teaches at Aberdeen and Scotland, wrote a wonderful book called Militant Grace, which is an account of J. Lewis, Martin and Ernst Casement and so forth, and their rediscovery of the apocalyptic frame of the of the Pauline Gospel. And this theme of militant grace is exactly what you're African American student, I think was reflecting that God's grace is not a universal. God is nice to everything, no matter what, or God is not a problem. Just relax, you know? Yes, I think God is above all a problem. God is a huge problem and it might be a very huge problem for us. Martin Luther King preached a sermon once when he compared the contemporary West to the rich young ruler who went away. Sad. Yeah, And the point of the book of Joshua is God fights for us by sometimes fighting against us.
Yeah. Yeah. And and it just depends so much on. On what From what perspective you're reading it. Right. Like if you're reading it from the perspective of the powerful, then it can be a very dangerous text and has been a dangerous text in the hands of various movements, including westward expansion. Right. But if you're reading it from the perspective of the oppressed, you know, whether that's posting like Israel or Judah or whether that's the black church, you know, in the 20th and 21st century in America, then you hear a very different kind of message. Then it's it's good news that God fights for us and that and that God is faithful to God's promises.
Yes. And the Romans think of Paul in Romans eight. If God is for us, who can be against us and the whole litany of the sufferings of the early Christians that that is being discussed there and so forth. So I think that I think you're absolutely right about that. That's why in South Africa, the book of Joshua was used for for very notorious and nefarious purposes under apartheid. Right. And I'm sure in the American conquest of the American West, we can say the same thing. But that's why it's so important for pastors and theologians to master the Book of Joshua so that I really mean that master the book of Joshua, so that they can interpret it properly and point out abuses of it. Um.
I think, I think one reason that it's difficult for us to wrap our minds around, at least in our culture, sort of especially like white, maybe generically liberal culture or something like that is, um, we don't, we actually don't much like the idea of like an us versus them sort of dynamic like a for something and against something else. Um, I think we kind of have this idea that, you know. All roads lead to Rome. You know what I mean? Like you believe your thing. I believe my thing. Like, we don't need to have, you know, these sorts of divisions. And I think there is. Some wisdom to that as far as it goes in terms of like trying to live in peace in a pluralistic society. And also, I think as people of faith, there are things God says yes to when there are things God says no to. And maybe we would do well to remember that sometimes.
Well, I think of course, I think there's the universal law of Christian love, which means that Christians are obligated to regard all as precious creatures of the one God and therefore people neighbors to whom love is due. So I think that, you know, that that I think that's a much better way of accounting for rather than Minnesota. Nice if I can be a little bit. A little bit. Are you saying are.
Are you saying passive aggression is not actually love?
Yes, I think I think that if you live in a certain kind of neighborhood and put up a sign saying all are welcome. Yeah, this is this is just hypocrisy beyond telling or something like that. Okay. So I don't mean to be polemical. I just want to say.
No, that's the real thing. Yes.
Our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against angels and powers and principalities of wickedness in heavenly places. Ephesians, the Apostle's perspective is really necessary here to see that the conflict between good and evil transcends us. It's over our heads and that on the ground our participation in good is that we are not overcome with evil, but we overcome evil with good. As Paul says in Romans 12. Right. So that we've really got to get the proper kind of perspective on these issues. But the gospel that the Lord fights for us is a militant gospel. And I think a lot of us have in our alienation from the Hebrew Bible, Old Testament scripture have really fallen away from that perspective. And how important I think it really is.
I'd like to ask one more question, Paul, and I know we're getting close to time, but in your book you talk about the latter day Joshua I don't know, or the other Joshua.
The Second Joshua.
The second. Joshua Thank you. I've forgotten your terminology. Can you say a bit more about that?
Yeah, that really comes from Origins commentary on Joshua, in which he is taken by the fact that the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Yahshua Is that how it is? Yeshua? Joshua Yahoshua Right, is Jesus, which is exactly the same name in Greek for Jesus. And so Origen origin says this is, this cannot be an accident. There's got to be there's got to be a meaning to this coincidence. And he sees, therefore, Joshua as a messianic type. And as I did the commentary, I saw two features in the book of Joshua that that seemed to make that exegetical credible. Number one, Joshua never walks away from becoming a king. Joshua does not accept any kind of personal authority for himself or his dynasty. And when he's done, he hands on the leadership. So Joshua is one. They tried to make him a king and he flees into the wilderness, to quote John, the gospel of John. Right. There's a there's a real analogy there between the kind of servant leadership. And at the end of the book, he's awarded the title of Servant of the Lord. And that's exactly how Joshua is a genuine foreshadowing of the second Joshua. Joshua this Jesus. And the other thing is the remarkable story about the son standing still. A son standing still in the battle. Yeah.
Yeah.
And the text comments. Nothing has ever happened like this. That the God obeyed a human being, that Joshua prayed and the sun stopped and God obeyed the command of Joshua. And the text points out a man commanded God that's right there and in the text. Right. And I think that, too, was a kind of a foreshadowing of the messianic character of the gospel narrative regarding Jesus.
Where we see God in human flesh. God as man.
Yeah.
Fully human. Fully divine. Yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks for talking about that, too. I know that's obviously a Christological reading, a Christ centered reading of Joshua, but one that, as you said, dates back to the early church and is important for Christians to to to talk about as well and to understand.
Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Paul. Appreciate. Appreciate that insight. I think that's really helpful. And thought provoking. And I hope that those of you who have been with us today have enjoyed this episode of the Enter the Bible podcast, reminder that you can get more resources, reflections, commentaries, all kind of stuff on our website EntertheBible.org and of course please share if you if you enjoy this podcast, please share it with a friend rate and review us on your favorite podcast app. We'll catch you next time.