In this episode of Enter the Bible, hosts Kathryn Schifferdecker and Katie Langston are joined by Professor Lois Malcolm, the Olin and Amanda Fjelstad Reigstad Chair of Systematic Theology at Luther Seminary. Together, they dive into the complexities of salvation, forgiveness, and repentance in the Christian faith. They discuss whether salvation can be lost, the unconditional nature of God's grace, and how faith transforms lives. The conversation explores the balance between God's justice and mercy, offering hope for believers while acknowledging the mystery of eternal life and the impact of our choices.
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Watch this episode on YouTube at https://youtu.be/2eMJxrcNdhA.
Hello and welcome to the Enter the Bible podcast, where you can get answers or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible but were afraid to ask. I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker and.
I'm Katie Langston, and today on the podcast, we are delighted to have a very special guest returning guest, our dear friend Professor Lois Malcolm. She is Professor of Systematic Theology at Luther Seminary and a good friend and colleague to both of us. So welcome, Lois.
We're so glad. Welcome, Lois.
Today.
It's a delight to be here with both of you.
Yay! So today we're addressing a question that we received on our website. And you, dear listener or viewer, if you would like to submit a question, you may do so as well. At enter the Bible.org, there's a little button at the top that says ask a question and feel free to go there. We try to answer as many of these as we can. So this question comes from a listener, um, who notes that the story in Luke 7:36 - 50. And this is when the woman who is sinful anoints Jesus feet with alabaster oil. Is that right? Am I getting that right?
With ointment in a jar of alabaster? Yeah.
Ah, okay. And and, um. And then forgives her sins. Right. And, um, the people are like, you know, don't you know what kind of a woman this is? And Jesus talks about how her sins, which are many have been, have been forgiven. And how much more someone who has been forgiven much loves much. So the question that our listener had said that, um, ask does does that passage, That story suggests that Jesus forgiveness of sins encompasses past, present, and future sins. And how does this passage relate to the doctrine of eternal security for believers? Or what, if anything, does it say about that? And so we sort of were looking at that and kind of could summarize this question, which is in the context of a very beautiful biblical story. Um, you know, can you lose your salvation? Uh, once you have received it, is it something that, um, that can go away, or does the forgiveness of sin that is given to you, um, through Christ last forever, no matter what? So, Lois, tell us.
Thank you. Yes. Thank you. How come I get the hard ones?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We say we save the hard ones for our friends, Lois.
That's right, that's right.
This is one of the classic questions.
Um.
In the late 19th century, the Norwegian immigrant synods who came to the US were divided precisely over these over this particular question. And most Christian denominations, um, have been divided over this question. Um, is salvation completely unconditional, or do our choices and our decisions affect our salvation? And is is our salvation secure? Unfortunately, Scripture always gives us complicated responses because you can find you can find Scripture. For example, in Paul's letters, Paul says in first second Corinthians five, one has died for all, therefore all have died. And then also in First Corinthians 15, Paul talks about how all will be raised in Christ, so that Christ's death and resurrection does in fact affect all of us that God's offer of salvation is there for all. Okay. On the other hand, Paul goes on in Second Corinthians Five to say, one has died for all, therefore all have died, but so that those who live might no longer live for themselves. And so that, on the other hand, you have this sense that, yes, grace is there for everyone. Christ's death is there to release all of us from death as well as from sin. But that's not just there so that we have insurance in the bank, okay? It's not just there so that we can then, you know, we don't have to worry about God anymore. We don't have to worry about loving our neighbors anymore. No, the whole point of that unconditional love and the whole point of knowing that death and sin and the powers of of hell, the demonic powers have been overcome in Jesus' death, is precisely so that we can be freed to live, as Paul would say, um in Galatians 5:6 , so that the hope of righteousness is faith working out in love, so that we're called to live in that hope that in fact all will be all in God, as Paul says in First Corinthians 15. I have a lot more to say, but why don't you guys push back or let me know where to go from here?
Well, those promises.
Are wonderful.
Right? I you. Ephesians two eight. Right. Very important to to Martin Luther. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing. It is the gift of God, right? It is. Even faith itself is a gift, right? Right. Uh, and and Martin Luther, of course, famously worried and worried and worried and, and and, uh, you know, when he was still a monk was, uh, you know, uh, confessing all of his little tiny sins, right? And wearing hair shirts and that sort of thing. And then he comes to this breakthrough revelation that even faith itself is a gift. And that and that God's grace is sufficient, uh, that God's grace is more than enough, right? That we are saved. Not not by our works, not by our acts, but by God's, God's free gift of grace. And that is a beautiful, uh, a beautiful gift, especially to those who are raised in traditions where they're told over and over again that they have to be worthy of God's salvation, that they have to do something right. That's a that's a great gift.
Uh, yes. That was my story. So. Yes, exactly.
So I've never pushed back a bit, though, right? Uh, and I wonder, so, uh, well, first of all, I think we have to say it's up to God, right? We we we rely on God's mercy. We are not the judges of of of others. We don't know what's in their hearts, and that we leave them to God's mercy. But when? When? So when I was a pastor in Wisconsin, I did several funerals, of course. So as a pastor for over five years. And and some of them were really difficult, right? Like, like the guy who, who abused his wife and was an alcoholic and then committed suicide. Right. Like, what do you say at a funeral like that? And and that's, you know, I never, you know, never darken the door of a church in his life, but had been baptized, right? He had been baptized as an infant. Now, in those in those situations. Right. I think it's more a matter of pastoral discernment and pastoral care than it is about, uh, right, you know, systematic theology. So, you know, you just put them into God's hands. You you leave him to God's mercy. You talk about his baptism, but and I think that's the important thing to do. But I wonder, you know, if someone is baptized, but then that baptism, that faith, uh, doesn't seem to have any discernible effect on their lives, right? I, I I'm not sure. Right. I, I would, I would probably lean towards, uh, obviously we leave them to God's mercy, but I'm not sure that that person is, is saved to use that word. Right. What? And.
Yeah. And here's and here's where we get at a very, um, a very poignant fact, which is about what all of our talk about God is about. okay, which is that we can't make, you know, when we're talking about scientific facts, so to speak, you can prove it empirically or you can when you're when you have a mathematical formula, you can prove that rationally. But any kind of a theological statement is about God, who completely is beyond our, our insight, beyond. And it is not for us in any way to know what's in God's heart. Do you know in the sense in aside from what God tells us, which is that God is love, but God is also a God of justice. Okay, so we know those two pieces, but the way that we can make statements about God, and that's why I really liked when you said your response is a pastoral response. Because quite frankly, as I say to my students, all of your theological statements are going to be as ephemeral as these three things faith, hope and love. Any kind of a theological statement and even a statement about what happens to us after death. Okay, we don't know empirically what happens after death, but we do have God's promises and we do have God's law. So those are the two things that we always have to rely on. And in between God's law, which is that there are consequences for our actions and God's promises. Guess where you and I live? We live in faith, where we cling back to the promises. I always say to my students, we fall back in the promises and we live in hope where we step into the promises. So the only kind of attitude, quite frankly, that we can have, and the only kind of statement that we can make for anyone, whether they have been a good person or a bad person about their eternal salvation and even about our own right, is in the act of To prayer. It's in the act of faith. It's in the hope. It's in the prayer that God let your mercy and let your will be done. Let your justice and mercy be done. And so what we do is hold up both sinners and saints into the hand of God, because the question can be asked just as much as to why does God allow innocent people to suffer? The same kind of question I know as as pastors you've experienced with, say, an innocent baby who dies or somebody who's innocent, who who is a victim of somebody else's actions. But in both cases, it's kind of like, God, where are you? Where is your justice, whether with the sinner or the saint? And our prayer is God, let your justice and your mercy, and let your character permeate our world so that we now can treat one another with your justice and mercy. So it's in the. The only way we can respond to that is in it's in the act of faith and trust that in fact, this is in God's hands. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And I think that's the limit of what we can say. This is where Luther says let's not talk about the hidden God. You know what I mean. Let's, let's simply talk about the God we know who is a god both of command the Ten Commandments and of promises. Yeah. Go ahead.
Where's the place of repentance?
Yes. Okay. This is where. This is where? Yes. Repentance is really, really crucial. The whole reason that we have been given this gift, this gift of faith, is not so that we can have a ticket to heaven. As Luther makes clear in his treatise on the freedom of the Christian. Guess why we've been given the word which frees us from from sin and death and pain, precisely so that we can keep God's promises. And this is, I think, something that we've forgotten, especially as Christians. I think Jews understand this more, but as Christians, we've forgotten that the whole reason we're saved is not so that we can have a ticket to heaven, even though, yes, our eternal unity and dwelling with God is secure. The whole reason we are saved is so that we can be released from sin, and so that we can do the two things that we're called to do. We're only called as human beings. We're only called to do two things love God and love our neighbors as we love ourselves. And so and so. That's why we're saved. It's so we can attend to the neighbors needs, and so that we can be freed from our own fear and anxiety, so that we can live into what God has called us to do and be so that we can serve our families and our communities and the institutions that we work for.
Yeah, I think it's um, these sorts of questions make me want to ask the deeper question. Well, what are what do we mean by salvation? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like, are we are we talking about, um, you know, uh, like you were saying, a ticket to heaven? Or are we talking about, uh, a life that is transformed in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit? And, uh, that a person who is set free to live and love, uh, in the present, which is the only moment that we actually have at any given time. Right? Uh, to love and serve our neighbors. And I think that, um, that the ultimate, um, fate, I guess, of people in in the world to come is a mystery. And we, we leave that to God, but for ourselves, you know, um, we can one, um, trust and have security that God will do what he said he would do. Um, and two, um, you know, we can from that space of, of trust and assurance, then live as redeemed, saved people here and now. Um, and that's probably more important than, you know, then living for the next life. I think God gives us our salvation so that we can live better now in anticipation of the future that's coming. Um, and it's not just like a sort of next life focus. And I think for some reason, uh, it feels like American Christianity in particular has been very, very, very next life focused.
And I don't want to diminish the next life. I remember giving a talk once and and somebody who was he was older. He both he and his wife were older and they were expecting death. And he said, you know, the the preaching of the resurrection is really important to me. Yeah.
Yeah. Amen.
Yeah. I don't want to negate the fact that we will, in fact, be raised with Christ, and we will, in fact, live with God and with one another in a new creation. So we don't want to negate that. But the whole reason we can hope for that promise is so that here and now, as you're saying, Katie, so that we can in fact be freed to live out of eternal life now.
I also see two. There's sort of two things going on in, in our conversation. Right. Where the where the question is actually about can I have security in my salvation? Yes. And and then what we're extrapolating from that is, well, can everyone then have assurance in their salvation? And I think for the person who's asking that question, yes, you can have assurance in your salvation. Right. Mhm. Um you can know that, um, you know that that that that you have been baptized, you have been claimed, you have been named. Um, God is promising you forgiveness of sin. And there's not a sin that God will not forgive, right? There's not a thing you can do, um, that...
Nothing an separate you from the love of God.
Nothing can separate you. So? So in in our own lives, we can cling to that promise absolutely and fully. And for people who maybe have not lived, um, in such a way that they've even wondered about it, or, you know, maybe they have lost or or rejected even, um, the promises of God, you know, um, those are the questions that we can be we can be hopeful about And leave others right to the mercy of of God and not try to make a decision one way or that's way above our pay grade to make a decision one way or another about the.
But we can pray for people, but we can pray.
Right?
Right. We are called to intercessory prayer for everyone in our circle. You know, I you know, we're I'm not going to go so far as to say that we pray for the dead. Protestants don't do that. But nonetheless, we are called to pray for.
We can pray for the dead. We probably just don't pray to them. Right? But, um, as Protestants.
Right. But we're called to for we're called to a ministry of intercessory prayer. Yeah.
Yeah. So. And, um. Oh, so I would just say, like, so. So you yourself, you questioner person who submitted this question like you. Yes. Can have security in the promises of God because they're unconditional and and they're for you, And and you can trust that he will do what he said he would would do. Um, and, um, and we can be hopeful, uh, about the whole world that that's how I, that's how I think about it. I have deep hope. Right. That all may be saved, right? Yeah.
Yeah.
If I could I completely agree with what you just said. Katie and Lois, too, that, uh, the if if the question is. And and of course, we're trying to extrapolate what the questioner asks. If the question is, can I be assured of my salvation? Is God? Will God forgive, you know, past, present and future sins? Yes. Amen. Yes, absolutely. You can be assured of salvation. Uh, I just I'm gonna I'm gonna be maybe devil's advocate. Maybe that's not the right phrase, but.
So my literally the devil's advocate. You're literally advocating for the devil to have some of these people go on.
You're seeping into the next question.
Go on.
So my my husband, Doug Steinke, who is who is also an ELCA Lutheran pastor. He and I have had this discussion a few times, and he tends to be probably more where you are, Lois. Like, uh, what? I don't know if this is a fair term, but like a Christian, Universalist like Christian, obviously, in the sense that all are saved through Christ. Right? Uh, uh, I, I tend to think and maybe this is my, I don't know, my sense of fairness, right. Or my my immersion in the Old Testament with its, its concern for justice. I tend to think that if people if a, if a person hears Here's the gospel and rejects it. If a person chooses deliberately to be aligned with the forces of death, right. And and and rejects God, I tend to think that God may honor that choice in the next life. Right. That that that we can choose to be separated from God. Um, and and maybe again, that's just my sense of like. Right. Just like, if God doesn't, uh, if there aren't consequences for evil acts, then where is justice? That's that's my own feeling. My husband. My husband says, you know, it's a mystery. All will be saved through Christ. And I said, well, then. Well, then why should we? Why should we share the gospel? And he had this great answer. He said, because they should know it in this life, right? They should know that there'll be that that they have life and salvation in this life, which I think is a good answer. But having said that, I totally agree with you, Katie, that we leave others in God's hands and trust in God's and both God's justice and God's mercy. And you said that to Lois .
And just to support what you've said, Catherine, I mean, I just I because even Paul, who is often used as the example of God's unconditional love for everyone, even Paul, makes it very clear, for example, in in right before he says one died for all. Therefore all have died several verses before that. He says that we will be held accountable for the deeds that we have done in our body. That even though we will all be raised with Christ and we will be presented before God, we will be judged before the judgment seat of Christ. And I have no idea what that means. But there is no question that even Paul, who is the who is the number one person who wants to emphasize justification by faith alone? Even he emphasizes that we will be held accountable. And the other big piece that I think we've lost, especially in Western American Christianity, and I think Katie was pointing this out, that and this ties in with your comment about Kathryn, your point about repentance. Kathryn, the whole point about being saved is so that we can repent. And repent simply means turn around so that we can change. And that's why I think the proclaiming the gospel is so important that yes, God's promises are there for everybody precisely so that we can turn around. Mhm. Um, and, and we can turn around as individuals, as families, as societies, so that God's justice and mercy can prevail in our relationships with one another. Yeah. Um, both in this life and in the next. And because there are real consequences, like for example, in the environment, as we're seeing right now, you know, or if you're unfaithful to somebody, you're probably going to destroy a marriage. You know what I mean? And if you neglect your children, I mean, there really are consequences. And yes, there is forgiveness, but the forgiveness, the purpose of forgiveness is not a ticket to heaven. The purpose of forgiveness is repentance, which is metanoia. Turning around, turning around, you know, which is turning around. It's it's changing your direction. Yeah. And I think that's what we need to emphasize in, in what grace is.
So, so that we don't fall into the trap of cheap grace. Right. As grace. Right. Right, right. Yeah. It doesn't.
What we do doesn't matter. Because everything's going to be fine in the end. Like, that's that's a sort of. Yeah. The nihilism almost. Right. Yeah. Like.
But even Christians need to hear that, too. I mean, this is what I like about Luther because Luther preaches the gospel not just to non-believers, but to people who have been baptized that we need to return again and again to to the to hear and eat the promises in Holy Communion and hear them in the word preached. Because we need to be transformed so that we can actually love our neighbors. Yeah, exactly. And forgive others. Yeah.
I want to go back to something you said right at the beginning, Lois, that that scripture has a complicated answer to this question. And I can just imagine some of our listeners right now going. But what about, you know, Matthew 25, which you mentioned, right. What about revelation? What about other passages? I just want to acknowledge there are passages in Scripture, Matthew 25, the sheep and the goats, right? The book of Revelation. The other passages in in the Gospels, particularly that talk about, well, the rich man and Lazarus. Right. The weeping and gnashing of teeth. Uh, so there are there are passages that would seem to indicate that both in this life and the next life, there are consequences for unbelief and for injustice and, and and all of that. So I just want to acknowledge that and say that there are these passages that Lois has talked about to, particularly in the epistles of Paul, that, uh, that that indicate that God's God's grace is unconditional and that salvation is unconditional. So, so.
God's mercy is always there when we repent. I mean, that's the paradox, is that there is this it isn't divorced from repentance, right?
Right.
I kind of like so I don't I don't call myself necessarily a universalist because I don't know, I call myself hopeful. Yeah.
Um, I would like to use that language?
Yes. Yes.
I call myself hopeful. A hopeful that all will be reconciled. But I'll just share this. This is sort of how I've come to think about it, just in my own life. Like, if you ask a question, you know, is, is there a hell? I think yes, because I, you know, I have spent time there, right? Like, I know what it's like to wonder all the time if you're good enough and if you're saved and if you're worthy. And I know what it's like to feel like you have to take it all on yourself. And like you are the one who determines, like, what happens, right? And my experience of grace has been of God pursuing me even when I wasn't listening or open until the point that something broke open and I was able, through God's grace, to turn to God. Right. And so, uh, and, and and trust in the promises of unconditional love and mercy and salvation. And so I kind of think of it in terms of like, um, and again, this is all speculation, right? Just sort of taking the bits of biblical evidence that we have and experience as Christians and people of faith or whatever, like, is it, you know, is it possible that there are people who have rejected God, um, despite God's pursuing? And is it possible that, you know, God will continue to pursue those people into the next life and they'll continue to reject God and live in that hell of, you know, fear and doubt and whatever self-centeredness, whatever. Um, I think that is possible. I think that is a possibility. Um, but I think my hope comes from the idea that God will never stop pursuing everyone, right? Right. That God continues to pursue. And so if God is continuing to pursue someone, you know, and again, this is speculation. I'm speculating here. But if God continues to pursue us even after this life, does ultimately God not get what he wants? I think that's hard. That's why I'm hopeful. It's hard to say that God doesn't win in that pursuit in the end. Right? But, um, but I do. Yeah, definitely know what the pain and, um, like torment really, of being separated from God feels like. Mhm. Um, so that's so I would never say there's no such thing as hell because I think I know a little bit of what it what it is. Um, and so. Yeah. And so that's when I say I'm, I'm hopeful. That's, that's what my hope is that that, that, that, um, that God's pursuit ultimately, you know, is effective and triumphant no matter how long it takes.
But that we can create our own health, that that position. Hans Urs von Balthasar, who is a 20th century Roman Catholic, has written several books on that.
Yeah, I just read dare We Hope?
Yeah yeah yeah and yeah. Dare we hope that's his, that's his. And I think that's a very that's one of the best, um, statements because it's not an easy universalism on the one hand. Right. But it does affirm God's unconditional justice, which gives us freedom in a sense, to reject God's unconditional justice, but also God's unconditional love and promise.
Yeah, it's a big question, but I think, you know, for our listener who submitted this, the fact that you're worried about it, I think says don't worry so much. Right. Yeah.
Right. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. You know, leave Hitler to God. But you. Right. Seriously? Right. You, the person who submitted this question, have confidence in the promises of forgiveness. When Christ died for you and has claimed you and has saved you, you can take that to the bank, right? Take that to the bank and live out of that assurance and that hope, because Christ is merciful and there's no unforgivable sin, and you can rest assured in your salvation. So that's what I would say, in sum. Amen. Amen. Yeah.
That's beautiful. Katie.
Yeah. So wow. But huge question, and I'm sure listeners are going to disagree or whatever with some of the things that we've said. That's fine. That's awesome. Um, it's just important, right? That's why we say we're, um, uh, we're not answering questions. We're reflecting some of these questions. We won't know this side of this side of heaven, um, in full. But until then, we have hope. And thank you so much for being with us today, Lois, and thank you for tuning in to our listeners and viewers. Um, if you enjoyed this episode of Enter the Bible, uh, we would invite you to give us a review. They really help, um, on iTunes or your favorite podcasting app. Five stars is great. I'm just saying, um, and, uh, of course you can always go to enter the Bible.org for more great resources and conversations like this. Um, until next time, thanks for being with us.