As a Christian, am I Supporting a Book (the Bible) and an Organization (the church) that Hurts People?

Published Jun 11, 2024, 2:08 PM

In episode 129 of the Enter the Bible podcast, co-hosts Kathryn Schifferdecker and Katie Langston discuss the audience-submitted question, "As a Christian, am I supporting a book (the Bible) and an organization (the church) that hurts people?" with guest, Dr. Jennifer Kaalund.

Jennifer T. Kaalund is an Assistant Professor of Religious Studies at Iona College in New Rochelle, New York. She received her Ph.D. from The Theological School at Drew University in New Testament and Early Christianity. Her dissertation, “Dislocating Diaspora: Reading Hebrews and 1 Peter with the African American Great Migration,” explores the constructed and contested Christian/Jewish identities in Hebrews and 1 Peter through the lens of the “New Negro,” a similarly vulnerable identity formed during the Great Migration in the early twentieth century. Her research interests include Christian Scriptures, African American history and culture, the Bible in popular culture, and the study of early Christianity in its Roman imperial context with a focus on womanist hermeneutics and postcolonial and cultural studies.

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Hello and welcome to the Enter the Bible podcast, where you can get answers or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible but were afraid to ask. I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker.

And I'm Katie Langston, and today on the podcast, we are delighted to be joined by a very special guest, a returning guest, Jennifer Kaalund, who is associate professor of New Testament at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and um. We had a pretty challenging question come in and we thought, well, Jennifer is so bright and wise that she's the one we must we must bring on for this. So thank you so much for being here with us, Jennifer.

Thank you for having me.

So the question comes from a listener and, um, uh, just a reminder that if you have questions, um, uh, about the Bible that you would like to hear us address on the podcast, you can go to the website at Enter the Bible. Org and ask a question. We get to as many of these as we can. So this was a fairly long question. So I'm going to summarize it uh, for the most part, but it comes from a member of the LGBTQ community who says that, um, that they've been going back and forth between, uh, being atheist and Christian for a few years. And on the one hand, um, you know, she says that her community, um, is ridicules her for following Jesus. Um. Uh, but she feels, uh, more peaceful and calm and not as angry when she is following Jesus. But then, on the other hand, uh, when she encounters, uh, super, maybe more conservative perspectives on the Bible, um, there's this sense of condemnation and shame. Uh, on the other hand, uh, when she encounters more liberal interpretation, um, her her takeaway is that, you know, most of the things didn't actually happen. And God is just this sort of, um, you know, this sort of amorphous love presence. And so there's just this, this tension, um, where, um, she's not sure what what to do or how to do it. Um, and, and sort of sums up the question by saying, you know, um, when I actually follow Jesus, I'm more peaceful and calm. But I sometimes feel that that being by being a Christian, I'm supporting a book and an organization that hurts people. What do I do? Um, and this is just such a this was such a heartfelt question. Um, that, um. Yeah, I really, uh, my heart really went out to this, to this person who's asking this question. So, yeah, we're saying before we before we hopped on that this is definitely one of those questions where we're going to be doing more of the reflecting than the answering.

Yes, for sure. But thank you to the the listener who submitted that question. And we are. Yeah. As Katie said, our heart goes out to you. Uh, and hopefully this will be helpful to you. But Jennifer, what how would you even begin to respond to to that?

Uh, well, thank you for the question and for the wrestling. Right? Um, because I think it's often easier to resign to one side or the other of this debate, but, um, to continue to wrestle with it, uh, I think is important. Um, that's the first thing I would say. Um, the other thing that I, I may begin with is that something I say often, say to my students and that is that the Bible itself can be used as a tool or as a weapon. Right? And that is for that is to keep us mindful of being ethical in our the ways that we're reading and approaching and talking about the Bible. Um, and we can often stop and ask ourselves when we're interpreting a text, are we using this as a tool to help improve the lives of people? Are we using this as a weapon, um, in ways to, uh, you know, uh, kind of demean someone's, uh, something about their characteristics, who they are, etc., etc.. And so I think that's one of the things is, is to being honest about the fact that, yes, um, yes, the Bible has hurt people and yes, churches have the Bible. I shouldn't say that the Bible doesn't hurt people. Um, that's the other thing I kind of would say about the question is that the Bible itself, um, doesn't hurt people. Um, and we are not responsible, I think, for, uh, supporting the Bible. I don't think the Bible needs our support either, um, in that way. Right? Um, but what the Bible, um, does is it can can do is it can provide us with that type of inspiration, right, that the writer or the listener is saying, right? It's like, but but still there's something in this text, right, that inspires me, that encourages me, that makes me feel loved and supported, that I think, without erasing all the other stuff. Right. That is the part that I think is important for us to hold in tension. And isn't that life? This text is reflecting the lived experiences of various time periods, of various contexts, of various voices. And I think that's what's important for us to think about. It's not that you're supporting a book necessarily, right? There are many books in this book, and that means, like with all the books we read. Right? I'm a huge fan of Toni Morrison, but I might not like the work of someone else, right? And so I can support this book. I can support Song of Solomon and say, well, you know, I really didn't like Sula as much, but still enjoy her entire body of work. And that's the same thing we can do with the Bible in and of itself, right? Is, you know, what really resonates with me is the Psalms, because I cry out, I am. I feel that supported and loved. Right? All of these things in the Psalms exist in my lived experience in my life. And at the same time, there is nothing in Revelation that seems to reflect, for example, right, right. Um, our world or right? And so I think the multi vocality of the text, understanding that it was written for different people at different times, in different moments, enable us to enter the text in different ways and to not confuse, uh, our interpretation with the text itself, to not confuse our experiences in the church with the church. Uh, lowercase kind of the the church, which means the body, the people, us um, itself. Right? And and, you know, I find the question encouraging because, um, we can be hurt by the church in many different ways, right? It can be. It can be. You know, I walk in one Sunday and as a child and I am denied the opportunity to experience the Eucharist. And I don't understand and I don't feel comfortable asking the question. And for years I'm wrestling with what that might mean. And that's a hurt that I've carried with me for, because not just that's not necessarily the fault of the church, um, as it's kind of as the institution as it's host here. That could be a very local individual experience. Um, of the church or with the church. And so, um, I would be, you know, I don't think it's fair to the institution or to the text for us to wholesalely, um, say that we behave in any one manner, um, because there are multiple churches that can encompass the Church and there are multiple books that encompass the Bible. So I would be open to the complexity of that. Um, as I'm answering or thinking about these questions. And so the Reverend Doctor James Cone would often say to students, seminary students in his class, um, that you have learned to love Jesus with your hearts. But now I'm going to teach you to love Jesus with your mind. And so the intellectual endeavor of studying theology, of learning the Bible, is not to be divorced necessarily, right, from the emotional endeavor of what the kind of what it invokes in us when we do that, that type of work.

Yeah, and just I know our listeners already understand that reference, but from Deuteronomy six, where Israel is called to love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind. And that, of course, becomes part of Jesus' saying about what the greatest commandment is love your neighbor as yourself, and then love God with heart, soul, and mind. I love that. I think Cone's exactly right. Right that we, we, we don't check our mind at the door or check our brain at the door. Um, when we when we come into church or when we, uh, when we read scripture that that part of loving God with our mind is to, is to use the God given gifts that we have of reason and intellect, um, to to study Scripture.

Yes. And it seems to me that's exactly what the listener is doing. Right? It's I'm reading things that are making me wonder about this kind of idea of God as love. And how do I put that into conversation with the experience people are having when they enter into a church? Or I'm reading and I identify in some ways with this idea of God being love, but I don't experience that, um, in my community when I'm being ridiculed for actually undertaking this endeavor of study. So, so yes, already that that's an intellectual, I think engagement with with religion, with theology, with the text itself. Yes.

I also I just want to affirm also what you said. First of all, the wrestling is hugely important and the listener is to be commended for that and that the Bible is not one book, it's a collection of books from different voices, from different times, uh, you know, uh, across the centuries. And so if and it's okay that if one text doesn't speak to you or makes you, uh, feel shame or, or whatever or is violent, um, that it's okay to put that one aside, right? And to go to somewhere else that that feeds your spirit. Like this. I think you mentioned the Psalms, Jennifer, that. Yeah, beautiful book of prayers and honest wrestling with God or, uh, or the Gospels or, um, you know, the epistles or, um, the Song of Songs or whatever. There are, there are different genres. We've talked about that on other episodes of this podcast. And, and it's okay not it's okay to have favorite parts of the Bible and to and to leave aside parts that aren't speaking to you. Because there may come a time, too, in your life when a different when maybe the book of Revelation does speak to you, right? Um, um, so those. Yeah, it, uh, I'm a Katie and I are both Lutheran and Martin Luther talked about, um, reading those texts or privileging those texts of Scripture that show forth Christ. Um, and so it's kind of like, you know, yes, it's all scripture. Yes, we we hold it as God, all of it as God's Word. But there are parts that, uh, do an easier job or a clearer job of showing forth Christ. And it's okay to, to kind of privilege those parts.

Well, I remember, um, so when I, you know, I've shared a little bit about my background on this podcast a few times, but, um, came from a mormon background and had a lot of anxiety around the scripture, um, and the ways that it had been used. Um, I like what you said, Jennifer, about how like, maybe the Bible itself doesn't hurt us, but the way that it's interpreted and used can be very hurtful. Um, so I had a lot of anxiety about it, I hadn't really wanted to even dive into it very much when I went to seminary. And I remember, um, Kathryn, you said that exact thing to me that, you know, when I was like, oh, no, no, I'm scared. You know, you said it's okay if there's some parts that you like more and some parts that you don't like more right, right now. And you can set those aside. Um, I would say though, uh, that the, the ditch on the other side that the listener identified is then saying, well, then you know, none of this, right? I can set aside, uh, disregard like, all of it or it didn't actually, some of the things didn't actually happen. And we've talked a lot about genre and trying to figure out what things are meant to be taken literally, what things are meant to be taken metaphorically or whatever. But I think that that other ditch to just throw out whatever you don't like is there and sort of leaves you with maybe not much left sometimes in terms of what you're actually holding onto in your faith. Um, and so there's, um, I think there's a way to set it aside without throwing it away forever. Right, right?

Yeah.

So that there's a, there's a I don't this and and it's not. When I was growing up, they told us if we had questions to put them on a shelf and what they meant by that was never think about them and just keep doing what you're doing and stop asking questions. Right? So I'm not saying it that way. I'm not saying put it on a shelf so that you don't ask the question, and you just pretend like it's not there and move on with your life doing all the things that you know that, um, you have to do or you're in big trouble. That's not what I mean by that. What I mean by that is you can say, I don't like this text very much. I don't understand it. So, uh, I think I think you can even say I think this text is wrong. I disagree with this text. Right. Like, I don't I don't get it and yet acknowledge that it's in, it's in the Scripture. It's there and there might like you were saying, Kathryn, there might come a time when you would come back to it from another perspective and you'd be like, oh, like I've had those moments right where I'm like, oh, I can read this differently now. And because I didn't throw it away altogether, it was still there for me to come back to.

I think the point you're making there is so important and I would I don't think we need to throw any of it away. I, we've had a lot of redaction of texts already that we, that I don't think we need to do that and I and you know I, I would say often I put questions on a parking lot when I don't want to deal with them in the moment, and I don't want to lose where we're going. Right. And I was like, we'll come back to the parking lot. Like, we can all come back there and drive that car later.

Circle back to it.

Yes. And I so I agree with the parking lot idea, but I think more importantly is that we continue to wrestle with the questions, right? That we continue to acknowledge that it's there because these ancient texts reflect the complexity of the human experience. And so because there is violence, because there are texts that we don't understand why things have happened the way they do in the text. They speak to the lived experience. When we don't, when we see violence in our world, when we see humans behaving in ways that we don't quite understand, um, the text can help us make sense, which I think is a huge important task of the text in and of itself. Right? To help us make sense of the world we're living in. Right? It's not perfect. It's not choice. We don't get to pick.

Yeah, no, that's that's really important. I think, um, and I hear you saying this, uh, too, that not all the, not all the violence in the Bible is actually there commended there. Right? In fact, most of it is not commended. Right. Some of it, it's there just because there's violence in human existence. And and the Bible doesn't look at the world through rose colored glasses. So I think of I'll just give one example in the book of Judges, at the end of the book of Judges, there's this terrible story of a woman who is gang raped and then dismembered. And and it's just a horrible, horrible story. The narrator, the biblical author is not saying that's a good thing. The biblical author is saying, look what happens when people don't follow the Torah, don't follow the law of God. This is what happens when when everyone does what is right in their own eyes. So, uh, yeah, not the the the Bible tells life as it is without necessarily, uh, commending that and in fact saying, you know, uh, if you follow, if you worship God, if you love your neighbor as yourself and if you love God with all your heart, soul and mind. This is what you should not do, right?

I think the other piece of it that that really strikes me about this person's question, though, is the church part, you know. Um, because it's one thing to to deal with a text that is old and we can ask questions of it or, and get mad at it and wrestle with it and all of that. And then it's another thing like dealing with actual human relationships with actual people who either interpret that text in ways that are harmful or terrifying and who impose on us shame and speaking from my own experience, you know, pressure and, uh, like anxiety. That's what I experienced, like in my church experience growing up, you know, um. And I'm not. I don't want to compare myself to someone in the LGBTQ community, because I think that that's sort of a distinct kind of, um, pressure and anxiety that those folks experience in the church. Um. But. And, um. I think it's like I would want to say, I think, um. Finding a community where you can feel at peace, where you're not pressured, where there's not, like a lot of shame happening all the time, where you know, where the, the, the gospel really is good news, the good news of repentance, the good news of forgiveness, the good news of hope, the good news of peace and justice, uh, both in our own lives and in the world. Like, um, it's okay to, um. You know, to choose a community that is is healthy for you. And it's okay to not go to a community that is not healthy for you.

Oh absolutely right. As you were talking, I was thinking about even just family relationships. Right? And the difficulty in in the family that we don't get to choose and, and how you, you know, wrestle with, uh, politics, food choices. Right? I mean, something as simple as food choices is, is if someone chooses to become vegetarian or vegan and, you know, it's like, what are you doing? This is how we always eat. And why are you making this more difficult? Right. All of those all those life choices make us think, how do we live together? How do how are we supposed to function together in community? Is it more important that I remember not to put cheese in this dish? Um, and that it will alter the taste? Is it more important that I defend that, or is it more important that you feel like you're a part of this community, regardless of the choices that you're making? Right? And so, um, and I mean, those are almost silly examples, um, that, that happen in my own, in my own small little families, like, you know what we're choosing to eat, but how do we make people feel a part of this community? And it's not we don't always get it right because we're people. We don't always get it perfect. And so that's the same thing we experience in the church, is that we're all wrestling with how to become better individually. But this is what I love about Paul's letters, right? Because that is also about how do we become, how do we live into this as a community? How do we, you know, how do how am I supposed to make you feel loved if you don't tell me that I'm doing things that aren't lovely toward you? Um, and that is what being the church is. And so that's not that's a very difficult task. It's not easy. And that's why I said your individual experiences in a particular community may vary and to your point, and you may need to keep trying it until you find that community that loves you enough to remember that you're vegan, that loves you enough to remember that you don't want you to them to season the greens with the ham, right? Love your enough to remember that, um, in some ways. So yeah.

No, that's that's actually a helpful analogy, I think Jennifer and and one that uh, to, to go to the kind of other ditch of that this listener was talking about, right, that the really liberal churches or writings just feel kind of wishy washy. That's not the term that she used, but feel like it's just a vague kind of God is love. And those and nothing, you know, that that, um, nothing in the Bible really happened. That that is another problem. Right? So find a church that not only welcomes and loves you, but also one that that does challenge you enough to, um, to feed you spiritually, right? And to feed your intellect and to and to feed your faith. Right? That that it's not just I'm okay. You're okay. But that talks about real things like, like sin and forgiveness and redemption and transformation. And you know, that, um, I think I think we so, uh, unfortunately, the church too often falls into ditches, right? Uh, either conservative or liberal and but there are communities that, um, that take the Bible seriously, that believe in Jesus, that love Jesus and, and believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead and that also welcome, uh, welcome, everyone. So they it's possible it's possible to find those communities. And we pray we pray that that listener, uh, we pray that you are able to find that community for you.

I mean, it can be really hard to find a church like that, you know what I mean? Like, just like, name it, especially in, you know, in the sort of polarized time where we're that we're living in right now, where it seems like, at least in the United States, like our politics have infiltrated, you know, every aspect of our lives and, and, um, and our faith communities and the sort of vitriol that we have for each other sometimes, like, you know, it's harder than it should be, I think, to find a church like that. Um, but they do exist. Um, they are there. And to me, that's kind of the. That's the sweet spot, right?

And one more caveat, though, like the church is called by God into community and the church is a human, uh, is inhabited by humans, right?

Unfortunately, that's what I always, I always I hope none of my parishioners are listening to this, but I always joke about that with my with my with my fellow, my pastoral colleagues. I'm always like, ah, why are there all these people in this church?

And you love your people

And I love them so much. So if you are listening, I love you truly. Um, but yeah, it's hard, right? Dealing with people is hard.

Yes. And I and actually what's and and living in the in between is what's really difficult. And because it's easier as you're talking about the political reality that we're living in these extremes. Uh, it's I think it's almost easier to say, um, as the writer kind of lends itself to this very liberal, uh, vague notion or this very concrete understanding of, you know, rejection. There is something in between. Um, and it's not that, you know, it's black, white or gray. There's all areas in between these kind of places. And so I think it's important for us to learn to live in between those extremes and to understand each other. The books, institutions, people in between kind of these extreme, um, narratives that we tend to paint

And hopefully he church can be, with all of its flaws, deep flaws. The church can be one place in our very polarized society where people who disagree can still love one another.

Yes. I mean, it's it's what draws the listener back. Right? There's something in all those questions that same. But still, when I read this, but still, there are moments when I gather and I feel loved and I feel like this is what I'm supposed to do, right? That is what continues to bring people back to very flawed relationships , right? Flawed institutions or flawed texts? Um, in many ways. Right. Um, because the greater narrative, um, that we're talking about of sin and redemption, of love, um, you know, of the good news, uh, is, is what will always, I think, beckon us to try, right. To try to be better, um, at this thing that we're all doing.

Yeah, I think I would just the last thing I might leave with the with the listener is it is possible to have questions about the Bible and even have parts that you don't like very much and to have problems with the church, right? And also to have faith and hope in Jesus Christ, and to have faith in hope that Jesus Christ lived. Actually for real, he was a real person and he really did die on the cross, and he really was raised from the dead. And that he entered into, on the cross, entered into precisely this wrestle the messiness, the pain, the shame, the anxiety, the rejection, the hurt, all of that and redeemed it. By the power of his love and his being raised. And and if you if that can be the center, if that can be the center of your faith and your life, and what you take away from, um, the Scripture and your walk with God, that's not vague. That's not that's a real concrete thing that you can hold on to, and it will stand up to all of the challenges of life. Um, it is sturdy. It is sturdy enough to take your Jesus is sturdy enough to take your questions. He is he is sturdy enough to take your your pain and your shame and your anxiety and all of that. That's why he did it, and he really did do it, right? Um, and hopefully that can be the center when we're talking about the two ditches that keeps you in the middle. So .

So good, so good.

Yeah. Amen. So anyway, well, thank you. Um, thank you both, uh, Jennifer and Kathryn, for this conversation and especially, again, thank you so much to our listener. We are praying for you. Um, we are hoping, uh, we're hoping that, uh, that God will give you peace. For those of you who have been listening, thanks as well. Uh, you can always have more conversations and wrestles like this. Uh, if you go to Enter the Bible org where there's, um, resources, commentaries, reflections, conversations, videos, maps, all kinds of stuff. Uh, and of course, if you have enjoyed this podcast, please review us on Apple iTunes. Uh, like and subscribe to our YouTube channel and share the podcast with a friend. Until next time.