Ever wondered about Christianity's remarkable expansion in the global South and why studying the Bible there is so vital? Explore these intriguing topics with Katie Langston, Kathryn Schifferdecker, and Israel Kamudzandu as they uncover profound insights in their engaging conversation.
Guest Dr. Israel Kamudzandu is the Associate Professor of New Testament Studies and Lindsey P. Pherigo Chair at Saint Paul School of Theology, Kansas City, Missouri. Kamudzandu has a Ph.D. in New Testament Biblical Interpretation from Brite Divinity School.
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Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/q-8d1k5QYBU
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Hello and welcome to another episode of the Enter the Bible podcast, where you can get answers, or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible but were afraid to ask. I'm Katie Langston, and just right off the bat, I want to say sorry, I'm not in my normal space, so the audio quality on my end might not be quite as good as we're used to being. But anyway. Hello, I'm Katie.
And I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker and our special guest today is Israel Kamudzandu, who is professor of New Testament studies and biblical interpretation at Saint Paul's Theological Seminary in Kansas City, Missouri. Or is it Kansas City, Kansas? Israel?
Kansas City, Kansas City, Kansas City.
All right. Uh, which which spans Missouri and Kansas. So thank you for being with us, Israel, thank you so much for taking the time to be our guest on this podcast.
Thank you.
It is good to have you here. I just want to mention, uh, Israel has a new book out that sounds just fascinating. It's called, as you can see there, Translation as Incarnation: The Bible in the 21st Century Global South. So, uh, as, as I hope you all know, global South. The global South. Yes. Uh, the the church is, is growing by leaps and bounds in the global South. The, I think two thirds of the world's Christians, of the world's Christians these days, live in the global South. So it's that's a very important work to, uh, to speak about how the Bible is studied in, in the global South. So I look forward to reading that. Israel, thank you for.
Oh, thank you, thank you.
Well, so one of our questions, or the question that we're going to talk about today is, from one of our listeners, it was submitted on the website: Enter the Bible.org. And as always, if you have a question about the Bible, please go to that website and, and ask the question. But here's the question: What is meant by the gifts of the spirit in first Corinthians 12? Is that something that only charismatics believe in? So I suppose Israel, first we should define what charismatics are. How would you define that?
Um. Uh. Thank you. So the word charismatic refers to gifted people, you know, is it is this just for gifted people? I think the answer is yes and and no. Yes in the sense that, um, the Corinthians, like any other people in the world, they were a multicultural people. They were a religious people, which means they were specialized people who are called in the African context, the shamans, you know, uh, but those function in the religious worldview. But Paul was writing to remind them of the gifts that they had received when they were baptized in the name of the Lord, you know, in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. Paul was saying, every baptized believer, he has got gifts. And so these gifts are unlimited. First and foremost, you are gifts to each other, you know. In this empire, you are a gift to each other, including those on the lower status. So wherever you are, when you come together in the body of Christ, number one, consider yourselves as gifts to each other.
That's beautiful. Yeah. So. Everyone is gifted. Every Christian is gifted. And first of all, we're gifts to each other, right? Sometimes it's hard to remember that in a church in conflict.
Yes, yes.
Uh, as the church in Corinth was right, they had a great deal of conflict with one another.
Yeah. And also to remember that the Corinthians were used to emmire, you know, whereby the emperors were on top and those who were poor, they were supposed to be at home in their situation, whether they were poor or rural people. They had nowhere else to go but Paul's preaching of the spiritual gifts. It's a gift again of liberation, you know, a liberating people who thought maybe they were dominated by this empire. But baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ equalizes both men and women, children, adults, they are all one in Christ. That's why it is the body of of Christ.
Yeah.
Yes.
Which is the the metaphor that Paul uses in
yes, yes
first Corinthians, that we are the body of Christ.
Yes.
I'll just note, I think that, uh, the person who asked this question may by charismatics may mean in the modern sense, uh, there are some churches that, uh, particularly Pentecostal churches that um, have the gift of speaking in tongues, which many mainline, mainline Protestant churches, at least in the West.
Right.
Uh, don't always do. So I think that's what our listener means by charismatics, like, yeah. Pentecostal folks, in today's world.
Every baptized believer, you know, is energized by the spirit. Energized by the spirit, not just for herself or himself, but for the common good, for the good of the body of Christ, so that people can begin to emulate and appreciate each other. So it's not just for you. If it is for you, then that's not the gift that Paul is talking about. Paul is talking about a gift that lifts somebody. Yes.
That's really helpful. Um, and I think that, you know, depending on the context you're coming from. So if you are coming from a more charismatic or Pentecostal tradition. Right. Um, there might be more of an expectation that you would have sort of spectacular gifts of the spirit, in particular speaking in tongues, but but a sense of the Spirit's activity. And, and maybe there are places where folks more in the Western sort of mainline traditions or even, I would say probably in the Catholic tradition as well, though there's a Pentecostal or charismatic movement in the Catholic tradition that, um, that maybe we feel nervous about it and like, don't want to name things as gifts of the spirit that actually are gifts of the spirit. Uh, and what I kind of hear you saying, Israel is like, on the one hand, you know, if, um, the gifts of the spirit aren't there just to make a show or to be like, "hey, check out how gifted I am," right? They and they're not just for people, um, who do have a more Pentecostal kind of theology. It's for everyone. All baptized believers are given gifts of the spirit, are made alive in Christ through the power of the spirit. Um, and that that's something that we can all embrace, uh, in order to be gifts one to another as well. That's cool. Yeah.
So speaking in tongues, it's a very it's a very interesting topic to me because, um, I was born by a mother who spoke in tongues.
Oh, wow.
But the different thing about her was she did not denigrate people. But she would talk in tongues in terms of communicating with the spiritual world and say to some of us, we did not have that gift: "This is what God is saying. Let's pray about this. You know, I'm going to pray about this. I'm going to pray about this." So in other words, she used the gift to enrich the society, you know, and so that's different from somebody who is saying, I'm very special. I'm very much educated. The Corinthians, they they were saying that. We are very much educated. We are very much knowledgeable. Spiritual gifts are different from your knowledge. You know, they come from God. They come from one God, one Jesus Christ, one spirit. Yes
That's a big that's a hugely important point. Thank you Israel. Can you say just for our listeners who don't know the context of the Corinthian church, the church in Corinth, what was the conflict about? You started talking about that, right? That that some people thought they were better Christians than others or.
Yes. So we hear among the the the Corinthians, we read about how some were in a different class system. You know, the more educated you were, the more wealthy you were. You belong to that. So there were this class, you know, system that was emblematic of the Roman Empire. You know, if you were poor, yes. You were not supposed to mix with those who are rich. So Paul is evangelizing the culture of the day that in your multicultural, in your, in this melting pot, if you receive the Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, then your brothers and your sisters, you are one family now. You no longer see yourself through the lens of the Empire, but you see yourself through the lens of Jesus Christ, especially the death and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is now at work in you through your belief, your faith, and your trust and your prayer with one another. You are one family now. You are no longer there. So in this, uh, trying to remove them from the old mindset? You know, that tends to put people in these classes. For example, I live in the first world country. I live in this high rented, you know, district. I have got a, a mansion, position, all those things. They pale in comparison to the gift of Jesus Christ, who is now in each one of you. So how do you help people to move from their culture? You know it to become children of God? So. The Corinthians were like us. We are still struggling with with the culture. We are still struggling with affluency. You know, the more affluent I am, the more better I am, right? The more I, the more I can achieve the American Dream. So that's how I define my faith. Paul is saying, no, no, no, no, no. Your American dream, Corinthian dream has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ. In other words, the gift of Jesus Christ brings humility. You see your friend as your brother, as your sister, as somebody who needs you. So that's like the context, the political context of the, the, uh, the Corinthians, they were under this empirical understanding of how do we live in a hierarchical order. Right? But Paul is destroying the hierarchy. So that in brief, the context of of the the Corinthians, are we still the same? Yes we are, we are the Corinthians now, you know, because we still perpetuate class systems, you know, hierarchical systems, even the church, the church has become this institution that looks at those with money, those with too much education. But Paul is saying, no, don't let that come here, come in the way. Yes.
Well that's really that's really helpful context. And it kind of strikes me too. You know what you're talking about Israel. About how the, um, you know. The giftedness that the spirit gives the gift, the gifts of, of of Christ that we receive are there actually to break down those hierarchies. Right? Like that's kind of the whole point of the body of Christ metaphor that that Paul also uses, that each part is necessary and the hand can't say to the foot, like, I don't need you. We need each other. We're gifted in different ways. And those giftings are there not to prove our superiority or our affluence or, you know, whatever, but to help us advance in the hierarchy. But they're actually there to, to help us recognize how we're how how much we need each other.
Interestingly that's Paul is arguing for that, that the church is not just a building.
Mhm. Right? Yeah.
The church is a representative of Jesus Christ in this global world. So wherever we go, we carry Christ. We speak. You know, Christ. We talk our Christ, we email Christ. We Twitter Christ.
So it is, it is an open ended metaphor that needs to be applied for young people who are asking or maybe people asking these questions. Yeah, they've been told by Pentecostals that you don't have that gift. I have it, if you don't speak in tongues. You don't have a gift. No. They are a gift in themselves, right? They know something that you don't know. You know, they know how to sing. They know how to organize things. They know how to be hospitable. They know how to speak to other people. So all those are the gifts. I mean, again, remember, Paul did not say, this is it. He just gave examples and says, add your own. You know, it's not a catalog of gifts, but rather it's an example of what giftedness is all about.
We shouldn't end this podcast without mentioning what comes immediately after this. Probably the most one of the most famous chapters in the Bible, right? First Corinthians 13. And I don't mean to start us on a whole other topic, but just to say that this discussion of spiritual gifts then leads into this famous chapter about love. Yes, or agape. If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging symbol. Love is patient, love is kind, etc., etc. and that we often hear at weddings, but it really is about what you're talking about. Israel, right? That that whatever gifts we have, whether it's speaking in tongues or hospitality or teaching or interpretation of tongues, that that none of it, that all of it needs to be guided by love.
Yes, yes.
Uh, and and that's what I hear you saying exactly is, is, uh, whatever gifts we have, we, we use them to, uh, to serve one another in the body of Christ, to build up the body of Christ.
In other words, you are we are. We are hearing from Paul saying there's no gift that is better than the other, you know.
Yeah.
But all gifts are from God. And they serve one purpose to edify the body, to make somebody feel better, you know, to make somebody realize his or her identity, that he has got value. But Paul says, again, as Kathryn was saying, I call it the most excellent way.
Yes. Right. Yeah.
Let me show you the most excellent way. You are lifting up, speaking in tongues as if it is the number one thing. Yes, the Corinthians were good at that. They were good at speaking in tongues and they would lift themselves up, you know, and look down on others. Instead, Paul says, the greatest gift of all, the most excellent way, is love. And that's why Paul has got a catalogue of love. What love does and what love does not do, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That faith, hope, that the greatest of these is love. So we ought to ask ourselves, what is love? What does love do? Love is a verb, right? As I tell other people, love is a living thing. You know love has got a voice. Love is got a character. Love makes people follow you, you know? So Paul says, yeah, you can be educated, wise. You read books, you live in nice houses. But that's not the end of it all. The number one thing. Do you love people? Do you care for them? That's when people know that you are a human being like me. And so people learn love when they see it. Yeah.
That is beautiful. Um, and I think a perfect place to end for today. So thank you so much, Israel, for these wonderful thoughts. And thank you to our listeners and viewers for being with us today on the Enter the Bible podcast. Uh, you can get more wonderful resources and conversations just like this at Enter the Bible. Org. We have courses, commentaries, uh, additional reflections and podcasts and videos and all kinds of things there. Uh, and then, of course, whether you're watching this on YouTube or listening on your favorite podcast app, please be sure to rate and review our podcast, five stars you know is extra, extra appreciated. And be sure. Be sure to share the podcast with a friend. Until next time.